Updated?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2020 03:37:26 -0400

So,

I got the update from my UA, and a copy of my Approval Memorandum. Thank you to those who were supportive! Why would RallyPoint require a question mark to end posts?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2020 6:22 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2020 06:22:36 -0400

I have seen several of them, including 1 Caucasian. I have never met a Christian with an Army beard though.
I fully support Army Beards.
Good Luck

Response by SSG Samuel Kermon made May 13 at 2020 6:55 AM

SSG Samuel Kermon — Wed, 13 May 2020 06:55:22 -0400

Hope the command gets off their backsides and approves...soon.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2020 7:19 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2020 07:19:14 -0400

I wouldn't read too much into the time it has taken. Religious shaving exemptions are a process that is relatively new and infrequent. Odds are your waiver is not the priority for any of the people you're dealing with. My experience with SJAs has been that they move entirely on their own timeline; I have never seen them make a suspense date, regardless of how much cushion is built into the timeline just for legal review. Best of luck to you.

Response by Maj Marty Hogan made May 13 at 2020 7:22 AM

Maj Marty Hogan — Wed, 13 May 2020 07:22:54 -0400

I personally have mixed feelings on this. Why do people feel they are special and need an exemption when you join an organization with fairly long histories and expectations. My religion has a pillar of this shall not kill. Grooming standards are to enforce discipline and present a professional appearance. Again this is just my opinion and my career is getting short. 36 years and still amazed me things we were told to do in the past have become a please would you consider doing this....

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2020 7:42 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2020 07:42:20 -0400

SPC.....welcome to hurry up and wait dot gov. They very well could be dragging it in the hopes that you'll get frustrated and just drop it. However you went through the proper channels and went about it according to standard....so stick it out. Keep at it if it is really that important to you. Don't worry about what they might think. Understand that it is simply not at the top of their priority list. It is what it is. Understand that consistent persistence is going to be key to making that happen.

Godspeed, SPC.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made May 13 at 2020 8:16 AM

CW4 Craig Urban — Wed, 13 May 2020 08:16:26 -0400

Groom like you should

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2020 9:05 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2020 09:05:17 -0400

I don't like religious exceptions. I believe that if you voluntarily join the military you should follow all the regulations and not ask for special exemptions. However, since the military opened this can of worms and allow certain religions to wear turbans and beards, they should allow all religions to follow their grooming practices. Otherwise it is discrimination. Bottom line: if the military is going to allow Muslims to wear beards then they should allow Nazarites to not cut their hair. You can't pick and choose which religions get granted exceptions.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2020 9:27 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2020 09:27:29 -0400

I have one Soldier in my unit that has one and I've seen another here on post. One is a Sikh and the other a Pagan. The Sikh I understand because that's an article of his faith. He has to choose to either forego his faith or his military service. His religion requires that he wear a beard. The other, his religion recommends that he wear a beard. His beard isn't an article of faith, he doesn't have to choose between his faith and the military. The exemption was created to allow people to serve who would have otherwise been prevented from service by their faiths, and they still have to shave if needed for the mission. The first type are routinely approved, the second one, less often.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made May 13 at 2020 10:34 AM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Wed, 13 May 2020 10:34:53 -0400

In your research I am sure you found several examples of soldiers who had their requests approved. Personally I know of several individuals of the Sikh faith who had their requests approved and I know of a Norse who had his approved. Just understand that it's the Military and that anything that stands out as "different" will get a lot of attention. Not all negative but it will be attention none the less. Attracting attention by itself is looked upon negatively by leadership because attention draws questions and they don't want to be in front of someone's desk having to answer uncomfortable questions. If it was a more common process you would see a lot more beards running around. You don't because it is a tightly monitored process. If it is something you want to pursue you need to ride it out. Good Luck.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2020 10:47 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2020 10:47:08 -0400

I guess I am confused on the issue here... You said you took a Nazarite vow and therefore can not cut your hair or beard... that is a very loose interpretation of the vow and it seems you are reaching here. the 3 requirements are "Three guidelines are given to the Nazirite. Numbers 6:3-7 tells us that he/she was to abstain from wine or any fermented drink, nor was the Nazirite to drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins, not even the seeds or skins. Next, the Nazirite was not to cut his hair for the length of the vow. Last, he was not to go near a dead body, because that would make him ceremonially unclean. Even if a member of his immediate family died, he was not to go near the corps". It would seem you should be able to be granted the hair on your head, but there is nothing that dictates the hair on your face. As a matter of the vow over all there is a time period that is also declared when you take it. This is typically 30 days but no more than 100 days. You also need to make sacrifices to God through a priest, which includes cutting your hair and presenting it to end the vow.

If you truly did take this vow, that is a wonderful thing if you believe in its purposes. But you would also know that the vow is voluntary, and there fore there is nothing within it that is a requirement to your overall religious choice.

There is no reason to grant any waiver for a beard in your case, and even a waiver for your hair on your head should only be extended to the completion of you Vow.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made May 13 at 2020 11:10 AM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Wed, 13 May 2020 11:10:27 -0400

So you are a HAZMAT specialist and you want long hair and a beard?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2020 12:21 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2020 12:21:17 -0400

It takes time. But remember, you can have the strongest case to get a waiver, but it can sill be denied

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2020 2:17 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2020 14:17:11 -0400

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/07/18/meet-the-first-norse-heathen-airman-to-grow-a-beard-in-the-air-force/

Meet this Norse Heathen airman approved to grow a beard in the Air Force

“If you saw a man that had a beard ... they were well-respected. It’s kind of a big thing, culturally.”

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 13 at 2020 2:47 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Wed, 13 May 2020 14:47:43 -0400

Yes, and they move at their own pace. If it is still showing as an active request, then there is hope. Wait!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2020 3:55 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2020 15:55:03 -0400

For decades we've been told the primary reason you can't have a beard is because you cannot get a good seal with a gas mask if you have a beard. Does being a follower of a religion that requires you to have a beard somehow grant you immunity from chemical and biological agents? Or have we been lied to for the last 70 years?

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 13 at 2020 4:14 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 13 May 2020 16:14:16 -0400

I'm impressed actually. You might be the first Christian I've ever seen acknowledge the biblical prohibitions on haircuts...

Will you be requesting a uniform waiver in light of the biblical prohibition on wearing clothing of mixed fabrics as well?

Response by Maj J B made May 13 at 2020 5:25 PM

Maj J B — Wed, 13 May 2020 17:25:30 -0400

If you can show an order that says I had to (with no grey area) then I would approve it.

I only laid off on a grooming request once for a Marine reservist that was an undercover narcotics agent who needed to keep his beard.

Response by LTC Philip Marlowe made May 13 at 2020 10:02 PM

LTC Philip Marlowe — Wed, 13 May 2020 22:02:00 -0400

Its amazing how the issue of 'beards' just never dies. I've lived through 5 gens of military (I consider every 10 years a generation) and beards are STILL an issue. Considering the principal reason for not allowing beards is MOPP (protective mask seal) related, I suppose clean shaven should continue to be the policy - however, in this day of 'military enlightenment' (meaning we care about religion and all of its nuances), exceptions should be granted. On the other hand, however, I also suggest if the military decides beards and long hair are NOT an option (period) - then when you sign up....YOU need to take your 'religious requirements' into consideration and make the decison which is more important to you: a beard OR the MILITARY. Once you make that call, then its a choice you made and if you enlist/commission military, sniveling / whining about your religious freedom becomes a moot issue.

Response by SP5 Dennis Loberger made May 13 at 2020 10:18 PM

SP5 Dennis Loberger — Wed, 13 May 2020 22:18:26 -0400

I too was a Caucasian, Christian soldier. I did not take a Nazarite vow so my opinion should be weighed based somewhat on that. Unlike today's soldier, I did not volunteer. I was drafted. Despite that, I felt an obligation to follow all the rules and regulations that existed and never asked for an exception to any of them. Today's soldiers are all volunteers and as such agree by signing up that they will follow the regulations as prescribed. I do not doubt your sincerity but would remind you that, in my opinion, the hair itself is about not so much about looking different but about setting yourself up against the culture by doing things good in the sight of God that set you apart from society. You can do that with or without the long hair. God's speed

Response by Sgt Charles Welling made May 14 at 2020 9:34 AM

Sgt Charles Welling — Thu, 14 May 2020 09:34:22 -0400

The Army needs conformance and they do NOT need a load of silly nonsense to deal with. Just man up and do what is required of you. A beard does not seal with a gas mask and long hair looks like crap under a cover and in ranks with conforming others. Or, join the Marines, your answer is NO and that is it.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made May 14 at 2020 11:54 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Thu, 14 May 2020 11:54:09 -0400

I truly am not sure how this might go if you want the truth. There have been instances where Service Members have taken on a faith or religion which is a change to there existing status. Which essentially men’s that the SM in question made a contract outside of the good faith contract entered into when enlisting or re-enlisting. There is presidency. On the other hand the unit can simply review validity and award. Conditionally based of course-all SMS must meet safe grooming standards for annual quake and NBC training. And for some daily duties require stricter grooming standards, some medical duties, some maintenance duties, lab techs etc. are required to wear PPE. In other cases such as your MOS and the current COVID environment may dictate POE for you, in which case you would have to shave your beard. Finally, if approved your hair would have to be maintained much the same as a female, there is no exception for that.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made May 15 at 2020 11:29 AM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Fri, 15 May 2020 11:29:18 -0400

Were you aware of the grooming standards prior to joining? Do you realize that you made a commitment before God to uphold the standards of your service? Why do you think the military should concede grooming standards to accommodate someone who is unwilling to uphold standards, including weekly haircuts and daily shaving? Uniform is not just the clothing we wear. It means we are one with another.
I am a very proud Christian. If for any reason my beliefs forced me to not be able to uphold standards I would have simply fulfilled my current contract and left.
With all due respect, why should you or anyone be granted accommodations while everyone else has to oblige?

Response by SSG Walter R Cooke JR made May 18 at 2020 10:16 AM

SSG Walter R Cooke JR — Mon, 18 May 2020 10:16:20 -0400

Well, for one I would tend to think you are a FRAUD due to you cussing to make a point or to make you appear to be a victim.
(Side note: It took Congress 6 years to approve the design on the ONE DOLLARS BILL)
To make a point or to express your point you would not say that to your chaplain or home town minister.
Secondly, facial hair interferes with your safety in the areas of Chemical, Biological Warfare, Field sanitation, and personal hygiene sitiution depending.
If, you haven't noticed let me point out that many doctors who have similar religious convictions have shaved not only their facial hair but thier heads as well to insure maximum safety while treating patients in this pandemic.
I wish you the best of luck in you journey. Be true to yourself and understand even at a snail's pace you are making progress.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2020 6:48 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 Jun 2020 06:48:43 -0400

This is speculation, but you have to end your post with a question mark because in the eyes of the site you're posting a question.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2020 5:32 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Jun 2020 05:32:06 -0400

Congratulations. Rally Point has two ways to post, Updates and Questions. Questions always end in a question mark.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2020 10:10 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 31 Jul 2020 10:10:15 -0400

The Nazirite Vow is taken by Jews, not Christians (the "Messianic Covenant" removed the
requirement for sacrifices and periods of penance). Under the Nazarite Vow, the Neizir (nazir) (person taking the vow) does the following:
1. Swears to remove themselves from world pleasures and the worldly pursuits of society.
2. Abstain from alcohol, fermented drinks, juices, grapes (to include seeds and the skin of grapes)
3. Abstain from cutting any hair from the neck up. Cutting of ANY hair above the neck ends the vow
4. May not come into contact with the dead. Regardless of the relation to the dead, coming in contact with the dead ends the vow.
For the Nazirite vow to be confirmed, the following MUST be observed by the same law:
1. The vow must be taken at a temple in Israel, or in the presence of a Rabbi.
2. If the vow is taken in the diaspora, the Neizir must relocate to Israel to confirm the vow and enter into solitude.
3. At the conclusion of the vow, the Neizir must make a burnt offering and sin offering at the temple altar. This is typically two turtle doves and the shave head of the Neizer.
Considerations:
1. Because of the changes to rabbinical law, the Nazirite Vow is permanent once sworn. Since there are no more temples in the world where sacrifices can be made, the Nazirite Vow cannot be ended.
2. The Nezeir lifestyle is incredibly meticulous, and requires an immense amount of focus and preparation. It is not something one decides to "just do", because it is a PERMANENT vow.
3. Under the Law, it is considered sinful to swear the Nazirite Law and be under any other Oath or Obligation.
4. The only congregations that I've been able to find that actively practice this vow (by adhering to the whole of it) are the Ultra Orthodox and Orthodox Jews (You wouldn't be in this military if you were one of these. The Christian groups that claim to participate in this practice are members of fringe religious groups that are borderline extremist groups. The Branch Davidians participated in this practice, including David Koresh himself, for example.

I've spent a considerable amount of time among the Jewish people, and in Israel. Those who wish to swear the Nazirite Vow take months if not years deciding whether or not this is the path they wish to take. It is a lifetime commitment of study, prayer, worship, service, and sacrifice. They are literally stating "This world has nothing to offer me, I want to devote my life to HaShem, my G-d."

Admittedly, I'm disgusted by your exception to policy being granted, your continued arrogance, and your thinking this somehow makes you more spiritual. It doesn't. In fact, because of the reasons stated above, your vow is not binding under Biblical Law.

You took something VERY SACRED to the Jewish people, and you shat all over it and the Jewish people to achieve your own ends.

Congratulations Individual.