Thoughts on Enlisted now allowed to fly drones and the pay difference between them and Officers?

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 02:35:54 -0500

I couldn't find details on if the pilots still had to have prior flying experience, however, this would mean that an enlisted would be doing the same job right next to someone who makes twice as much, how tired and frustrated would you be when by MSGT you know way more but you still have to follow the orders of someone brand new and they still make more money than you? How would you try and balance out that pay gap?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2015 2:36 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 02:36:59 -0500

Easy, make them Officers.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Dec 30 at 2015 6:24 AM

PO1 John Miller — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 06:24:39 -0500

Give them the same flight pay that officers get.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Dec 30 at 2015 7:25 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 07:25:51 -0500

Different types of drones. Remember not all drones are the same. The USAF has some HUGE drones, and some of them are weaponized.

Furthermore, just because someone is a Drone pilot doesn't mean they have all the other qualifications needed to be an officer, including the Bachelor's Degree and specialized schooling.

Yes being an Officer has pay advantages, but there are quite a few disadvantages when you look behind the curtain as well. But all that is secondary to the responsibilities that come with a "managerial position" that is inherent with the rank.

By definition Enlisted are Specialists in our fields, and as we progress we take on managerial tasks. Officers are Managers by trade, and may operate as Specialists within a field, but they are always Officers first and foremost.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2015 8:15 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 08:15:04 -0500

As usual, Mr. Kennedy's comments are spot on.

Officers are paid more in salary, yes...but there is a point where an O-2 with no prior service is living a much lower quality of life than many E-7 and above. Having the experience to know what to do with your pay is often worth more than "base salary"-in my opinion (and experience). in addition, I don't know many officers who honestly make it past say twelve to fifteen years...and those who do, run even tighter gambits attempting to hold on to their careers until retirement.

More importantly, being a "pilot" isn't an officer's primary job...being an officer is. Admittedly, I'm not that familiar with the Air Force commissioned culture, but I can state that in Naval Aviation, commissioned aircrew are still expected to be divisional and departmental officers, and as they advance towards command, have to master the skills to be the CO of an air capable ship someday...if they want to make flag.

Finally, and this is in no way a "dig" at remote aviation's importance...flying a drone isn't the same as piloting an aircraft in a combat zone. Enlisted aviators in the past often were spot promoted to officer rank simply because as they advanced, they did find themselves in positions to be combat leaders of lesser experienced, commissioned flyers. There were, for example, quite a few RAF pilots wearing stripes during the Battle of Britain, who survived the odds to train incoming "butters" as the war progressed. My own grandfather, who didn't have a college degree, ended up an officer because he was an extremely experienced civil aviator when the War began. I am fairly confident this is why the Army utilizes warrant officers in many aviation positions as well.

Response by MSG Gerry Poe made Dec 30 at 2015 9:58 AM

MSG Gerry Poe — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 09:58:47 -0500

If you are an enlisted flying a drone setting next to an officer and feel frustrated about he/she is getting paid more than me to do the same job. Go take a look in the mirror and tell yourself, "lets look at becoming an officer"! Or, you can poke that chest, bow that neck and tell yourself, "I'm badass to be doing something this guy/gal is doing"!

To much justifying going on these days! I have preached and continue to preach, rank is earned and a privilege not a right! If you want what the other has, go get it and stop trying to justify why does he/she get that and I don't! Just my two cents!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2015 11:50 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 11:50:06 -0500

I would really question what drone they are flying. Enlisted soldiers in the Army fly drones. These drones are nothing compared to what the AF flies. I don't think you will see an enlisted member copilot an officer.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2015 1:25 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 13:25:31 -0500

How is that different than any other job? Since the start of the AF, Sgt's have been training Officers that get paid more then them. I am sure you are being sarcastic but let say you were a 10 year MSgt it would take a 14+ year LT Col to get twice the pay.

For those of you who asked what UAV, for now it is only for the RQ-4 not either the MQ-1 or 9. I would bet that changes in 2-3 years.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Dec 31 at 2015 6:55 AM

PO1 John Miller — Thu, 31 Dec 2015 06:55:09 -0500

I see you're stationed at DM. I actually work (as a contractor) for a National Guard unit at DM (actually at DM, not at the National Guard base by the airport) that flies RPA's. If you're interested (and have the security clearance and read-ins) I'm sure you could come by and stand in on a shift or 2 and see for yourself what the drone pilots do and how the enlisted like it if you're interested.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Jan 2 at 2016 12:04 AM

SFC Joseph Weber — Sat, 02 Jan 2016 00:04:41 -0500

You got Corporals flying M1 Abrams who are responsible for that and three other lives. Last I heard those things can do a lot of damage.

Response by MSgt Gary Hinkelman made Jan 6 at 2016 8:12 AM

MSgt Gary Hinkelman — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 08:12:48 -0500

You make a great point. For this situation, I'd bet you'll find more volunteers. As a retired MSgt, I'd be proud to fly UAVs. Give me a call, where do I sign up?

Being back enlisted flyers.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2016 12:12 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 12:12:20 -0500

The difference in pay issue has been brought up over the years. There are several positions at least in the Air Force where enlisted and officers basically do the same job. Just about everyone has the same opportunity to become an officer if they want to make more pay. I'm speaking as someone who achieved Technical Sergeant and then was commissioned after earning a degree retiring as a Major. I would guess that any of the enlisted chosen to fly UAVs would be almost guaranteed a commission if they earn their degree.

Response by MSgt Eric Roseberry made Jan 6 at 2016 8:41 PM

MSgt Eric Roseberry — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 20:41:21 -0500

Exactly the purpose of the W's, the Air Force would do well to reintroduce these ranks. I knew many many pilots who only wanted to fly...

Response by MSgt Walter Thomason made Jan 7 at 2016 5:23 AM

MSgt Walter Thomason — Thu, 07 Jan 2016 05:23:40 -0500

Because of unique circumstances, I filled an O-3 position as an E-6 and later earned promotion to E-7. I found my primary concern was accomplishing the mission and not how the digits on my paycheck compared to the O-ranks that I worked along side. In fact, my biggest concern was how to properly assert myself when situations called for it. I did not earn the rank of an officer but then I was in a position that decisions had to be made or tasks had to be accomplished that my knowledge and experience dictated had to go against the grain of consensus of the officers. Sometimes I had to be bull-headed to get the point across but at the end of the day, I also knew as an enlisted, my job was to follow the order given as though the decision was mine and pray I wasn't around when the situation backfired. But whether it is flying a drone or Space Ops, the mission is the focus not the paycheck

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Jan 7 at 2016 12:13 PM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Thu, 07 Jan 2016 12:13:17 -0500

We can teach anyone to fly a drone. Having a college degree or not has no bearing on whether or not you can fly. Some things to remember...the officer in the chain with you flying that drone makes the decision to fire or not, to kill or not to kill, to take out a target and accept the fallout or not or to violate a restricted airspace and violate a international treaty. If a MSgt fires inadvertently or makes the wrong decision they can potentially get disciplined and separated from the Air Force or reduction in rank...if there are casualties involved or a treaty violation, the first officer in that chain that made that decision that is sitting right next to the MSgt can and probably will be court martialed and separated or worse potentially sent to prison because they are trained to make that split second decision on Law of Armed Conflict and treaty issues versus just flying a UAV. I have been enlisted as a crewmember on aircraft and I had a lot of responsibility. However, I had nowhere the leadership responsibility of flying an airplane, taking care of crew, ensuring crew rest, in time take offs, or the safety of whether to land a billion dollar aircraft or not etc.etc.etc. I wanted what they had but I understood the differences between the two. So I went to college got my degree and commission and came back in. My eyes were opened wide to the officer side of things that I fully never understood until I put on the gold bars. Remember, officers are appointed by and act of congress. They don't just walk into a recruiters office and sign up...they are fully vetted through the House of Rep and the Senate on up at every promotion so they can take on those leadership roles...a lot is given but a lot is expected. Are they any better people than enlisted...or they in a better social class...are they any smarter...ABSOLUTLEY NOT. Are they held to higher standard for decision making and leadership at all levels...ABSOLUTELY. Therefore to create equal pay is not feasible because yes they may be flying a drone on the surface but there are a million other reasons why they are wearing that rank.. This just scratches the surface an no way gets to the real meat of the differences of why they are paid more to fly. I they want what officers have, get your degree and a commission and come back in and sit in the other seat. I might be swayed for enlisted to get the same incentive flight pay if they are "flying" the UAV versus being a sensor operator...that may be justified. I would have research and debate that a little more.

Response by Lt Col Bradford Keene made Jan 7 at 2016 12:34 PM

Lt Col Bradford Keene — Thu, 07 Jan 2016 12:34:12 -0500

Some great thoughts have been offered here. And several have touched upon my remedy: the Air Force should make this a Warrant Officer position. I suspect they will resist based on not wanting to dampen the prestige of the Air Force senior enlisted. But I believe this concern is misplaced. These new drone operators would become junior officers, not Super Senior Enlisted. Many years ago, my uncle turned down the opportunity to become a warrant, based on his perceived threat of becoming a small fish in big sea, instead of remaining one of the most powerful and feared people in the Army: a Sergeant Major.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Jan 8 at 2016 12:34 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Fri, 08 Jan 2016 12:34:08 -0500

"however, this would mean that an enlisted would be doing the same job right next to someone who makes twice as much, how tired and frustrated would you be when by MSGT you know way more but you still have to follow the orders of someone brand new and they still make more money than you? How would you try and balance out that pay gap?"

I suspect this topic is more general than the specific frame presented here. It has been raised several times on RallyPoint, and I'd rather address the general question than the specific one. Simple answers:

1. Officers and Enlisted members do not 'do the same jobs.' There are specific roles for each and they are set out in multiple regulations and SOPs, they are separate for reasons, those reasons become clearer as your own grade advances and you learn more by observing multiple individuals' performances of their duties.
2. Corollary to 1. Performing the same discrete task for a large portion of your function does not mean you do the same job entirely.
3. If you want to be an officer instead, be one. There are many programs to transition from enlisted to officer ranks. Seek advice and recommendations from both senior NCOs on why they chose not to (most of them had a chance at some point and the vast majority were well qualified had they chosen to) and from junior officers you respect (especially ones who were prior enlisted.)