The Myth of the "Good Soldier" and a DUI. Is there such a thing as a Good Soldier that gets a DUI?

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 08:13:42 -0500

I would like some input here from other 1SGs and SGMs. Is there such a thing as a Good Soldier that gets a DUI?

Let me give a personal example. Recently one of my top performing Jr. Soldiers got a DUI, prior to, and after this incident; he has proven to be the model Soldier. He always pays proper respect to NCOs; Officers; regularly led PRT, sounded off during runs; hard worker; etc. Here is the kicker, he never reported the DUI to the Chain of Command, the only way we found out was when he was subpoenaed by the RoK court system. This is a HUGE lapse of Integrity, perhaps the biggest problem the command team has with this.

So I ask; Is there such a thing as a Good Soldier that gets a DUI? Does hard work, military bearing, esprit de corps, a lack of integrity and sound judgment; or does a momentary lapse of judgment erase all the hard work put into a short career?

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 8:42 AM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 08:42:26 -0500

Absolutely.

Response by MSgt Timothy Bridgham made Feb 14 at 2014 8:48 AM

MSgt Timothy Bridgham — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 08:48:20 -0500

I would question why the soldier felt that he could not or should not report it. There is something else going on here that either he is not telling you or you are not seeing. What happens in your command when a troop screws up and reports himself/herself? Has a leader recently had a issue that got sweep under the rug? Look for the underlieing cause, and maybe you will still have a good soldier in the end.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 8:48 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 08:48:58 -0500

Without question great soldiers can make career ending or in general bad decisions. I think if the soldier would have immediately reported to you the DUI he might have had a chance at taking the punishment, learning from their mistake, and earning back the previous respect they had from the unit. Now that they made an integrity violation how can anyone in their chain stand up and say he made a mistake?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 9:07 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:07:35 -0500

1SG, I believe that how a Soldier deals with adversity best displays their character. Specific to the scenario you put out, when that Soldier made the choice to not step up and face his situation head on with communication to his NCOs, he added the lack of integrity TO the poor judgment. In that case, I would say he MAY be a good Soldier that DID get a DUI, but the lack of Integrity...the end of his career as a consequence for those decisions may be the unfortunate, but necessary price.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 9:17 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:17:57 -0500

1SG,

I do think that there are cases where a good Soldier or even a great Soldier gets caught up in a moment where they lapse in judgement. I have seen it happen before and a Soldier's career was saved because they were forthcoming and provided the information before it was found out through other channels. I think the issue here is that this Soldier's lapse in judgement led to a lapse in integrity and that would cause me as a leader to question how he might act in the future where his reputation was on the line. I think this Soldier knew what he had to lose by coming forward and although might not have made a conscious decision to drink and drive due to the state he was in, he definitely made the conscious decision to try and conceal his wrong doing in the hopes no one would find out. Unfortunately in today's Army, one lapse in judgement can spell the end of an otherwise stellar career.

SFC Adam J Rosenlund

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Feb 14 at 2014 9:26 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:26:21 -0500

What is a good Soldier?  That is the question.  We see a Soldier who does all those things you mentioned and "looks" like a good Soldier.  These are the same things we hear echoed in the #1 priority of the Army.  SHARP.  "But he's such a good Soldier."  Over and over again.  So what is a good Soldier?  <div>I would argue that these people are good workers.  They are NOT good Soldiers.  Soldier's face adversity and overcome it with the Army Values.  These Soldiers face adversity and succumb to it. Whether it's DUI, Sexual Assault, Domestic Voilence, whatever, these are not just bad judgement calls, these are deliberate acts contrary to our beliefs and values, and more often than not reveal a deceitful behavior imbedded deep within the "good Soldier."</div><div>Would you care how well he called cadence, ran PRT, or saluted officers, if he hit and killed one of your kids while driving drunk?  Of course not.  Nor should you because this time he got lucky and didn't, and then lied to the police to get out of going to jail.</div><div>That "momentary lapse of judgement" as you put it should erase all the hard work put into a short career.  Why because he's lucky it didn't erase someone else's life or his.</div><div>He's a good worker, he's not a good Soldier.</div>

Response by 1SG Shane Hansen made Feb 14 at 2014 9:43 AM

1SG Shane Hansen — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:43:12 -0500

To err is human.....Not a single one of us has been through our life or career without making a mistake or lapsing in judgment for a moment in time.

I do not, nor will I ever, condone drinking and driving. If the Soldier got caught, good! Punishment needs to be swift and severe, but then move one. Judge how the Soldier overcomes the adversity and deals with the outcome.

In your scenario, the Soldier is obviously not a "good" one, if he was he would have admitted his errors right away to his superiors. Definitely an integrity issue in the eyes of the military.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 9:55 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:55:18 -0500

I say this with a hint of sarcasm yet with a lot of truth, but I bet if one were to poll all the SFC's and above in the Army today, how many do you think would have a history of DUI's or at least one? Now, saying that, I would imagine that MANY are GREAT leaders as well...

Back in the day it seemed as though if you did not have a DUI, you weren't going anywhere. Hence the whole "Screw up, move up" mentality. But, Soldiers do screw up once in a while, that is a given. But being late to formation, wrong uniform and other misc. minor issues are one thing.

On the other hand... A DUI is another thing in my opinion. Someone said it earlier, look at how much time and effort we put into briefing "Don't Drink and Drive". If we are spending so much time and effort on SHARP/ EO etc. and someone is in an alleged perpetrator in a SHARP/EO related incident, even before they are investigated their reputation and career is destroyed simply by the accusation. So, if big Army is stressing punishments for one topic, why aren't proper punishments being handed out for others, like DUI's? A perpetrator found guilty in a SHARP/ EO incident, isn't granted an "oopsie" pass, so why give one to someone who gets THEMSELVES in trouble with a DUI? They made a clear, conscience decision to drink, to drive, to not call for help, to not get a ride, to put other lives in danger, and sometimes lives are lost... why excuse that?

Not to mention the Army is trying to get rid of people, or shall I say "downsize". If this is a time where you should be on your best behavior so you do not get the axe, why is a DUI something we should discuss as dismissing, or consider being tolerable? There are great NCO's, Officers, LEADERS, who are getting the boot these days yet people with less than honorable performance history are staying due to one loop hole or another, or not being punished for actions that deserve it. My view of course.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Feb 14 at 2014 9:57 AM

Maj Chris Nelson — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:57:07 -0500

I remember a time when the common joke was that every senior NCO and Officer had their DUI ribbon, with bronze mugs for each additional award, silver indicates 5..... worn proudly toward the top of the rack. Alcohol was an expected beverage. That was in the 1980s.... While the military has cleaned up LOTS in regards to alcohol, what you have to remember is that "to error is human". Many of our young troops are just that...young. First time away from home, first exposure to alcohol (and even if not first time use, the 'life rhythem' is different. I personally feel that in many cases, a 1x offense can be turned into a learning experience, and in many cases, your troop will be better for it. Second or after, they need to go. I feel that if handled well, it would be a 1x thing AND you will build a better troop out of the ordeal.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 10:21 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:21:59 -0500

Good Soldiers get chaptered out all the time for one time faults, gotta be held accountable.

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Feb 14 at 2014 6:13 PM

CSM Michael Poll — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 18:13:12 -0500

All SOldiers screw up, it is what young kids do, however, A Non COmmissioned Officer is held to a higher standard. Depending on the MOS of the Soldier, I believe all soldiers can be rehabilitated. Whether or nt they wnat to be is thier choice. NCO's are supposed to be the standard settter, so this type of behavior is not condusive with that rank held.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 8:04 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 20:04:13 -0500

I'm not sure at this point we can actually call getting a DUI a "mistake". I think in this day and age, especially in the military, we should look at a DUI as a blatant act of willful negligence. The same goes for using illegal drugs. There is noone in the military that can say that they don't know any better, or that they are not aware of the consequences.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 10:45 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 22:45:26 -0500

I will only say this.......Every Soldier, NCO, WO, Officer that get's charged with a DUI has a story that led up to that event. All of which are lapses in judgement. But when to piece together the chain of events, if it can be proven that the total story is A) out of character, B) is due to a legitimate lapse in judgement, C) wasn't malicious in occurrence, and D) doesn't get convicted in court......Then I feel that the trooper deserves a chance to overcome it. Everyone makes mistakes and everyone has gambled at one time or another. If you say you haven't, then you are liar. So with that being said, the total Soldier concept does come into play. If the trooper is a stellar performer and makes a mistake that hasn't harmed anyone, and you know your trooper and feel that this was a one time thing, then yes, he should be given a second chance. Some of the best leaders I have seen in 19 years have had flaws and have made a mistake once or twice. Some mistakes are a one and out. I got it. But if no real harm has been committed by a stellar trooper, he beats the charge in court, and acknowledges the flaw and fixes it. Then he is better than many that have graced our Senior ranks.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 1:25 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 01:25:05 -0500

<p>Is there such a thing as a Good Soldier that gets a DUI?  Of course. </p><p> </p><p>1 Mistake does not define someone.</p><p> </p><p>With that said he will pay a price for that mistake as he should.</p><p>What makes a good soldier is not what happens to him before he gets knocked down, but how he reacts and responds after.</p>

Response by SSG Shawn M. made Feb 15 at 2014 11:15 PM

SSG Shawn M. — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 23:15:59 -0500

SSG Salvatore Giunta got a DUI in Italy as a SPC right before his deployment to Afghanistan where he was later awarded the MOH for his actions there. So is he a bad soldier?<div><br></div>

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2014 11:24 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 11:24:50 -0500

The lack of integrity in reporting this to the chain of command is the twist in this case. Was he performing well as a soldier to build 'credit' up for when the chain discovered his CRIME? Was he trying to show himself to be a 'good soldier' so as to gain leniency from the CC upon the discovery of his crime? Was he hoping that the chain would never discover his crime?

A DUI is a crime under the UCMJ/local host nation laws and should be punished accordingly. Can a soldier continue on after such a thing and be a 'good soldier'? Absolutely they can. However, in this case the lack of integrity would give me great pause in retaining him in the service. Integrity is at the core of our actions every day. Lack of integrity in an individual soldier is not something I would want retained in my service.

I dealt with a similar issue while sitting in the first sergeant chair a few years ago. The only difference was the incident was reported immediately to the chain. The CC and I struggled over the decision to allow this Airman to reenlist, we had just promoted him to E-4 Below the Zone 2 months prior and his DUI occurred right when his re enlistment window opened. It was decided in the end to sit on the paperwork as long as possible and observe his actions after the punishment was handed out. We signed the paperwork, accomplished a Commander directed EPR to bury the referral EPR and allowed him to reenlist. He has continued in the service and is what I think to be an Outstanding NCO and leader.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Feb 25 at 2014 5:54 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 17:54:37 -0500

Yes, "good Soldiers" can get DUIs...but they'll need to be held accountable, just the same.

If in leadership positions, the punishment should be more severe than a non-leader; they know better.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2014 10:28 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Mar 2014 22:28:45 -0500

I had to think on this one for awhile. Personally, total soldier concept is the direction the Army is moving. Lapse in judgement involves the events leading up to the DUI. Not telling the CoC was the real mistake. We all make some. We all learn from them and good soldiers will use those lessons to be a better leader. Now to look at this from a different angle. What would your response be, if he was a LTC?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2014 8:11 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Oct 2014 08:11:59 -0400

1SG,

Wow, this question was ask to me when I was boarding for E6. I said "no" but even then we have all made major mistakes in our lives and a DUI may have been a momentary lapse of judgement that resulted in a major negative issue... Similar to a negligent discharge.

I would have to say that I have often seen my peers who have been the out spoken PRT Leaders, cadence callers, 300 PFT, Soldier/NCO Year/Month can often be the worst Soldiers. Its easy to be the squeaky wheel and have the Command Team see you as high speed because those tasks are actually relatively easy to accomplish (300 PFT can be arguable, I can't do it). The measure of a Soldier or any Service Member should be how they preform when no one is watching and would do the hard right over the easy wrong, rather than the "look at me, look at me" tasks that used (and still are) the standard on the determination of a Leader.

Response by SPC(P) Thomas Beliveau made Oct 19 at 2014 12:30 AM

SPC(P) Thomas Beliveau — Sun, 19 Oct 2014 00:30:04 -0400

A DUI is the easiest crime to avoid committing. It is not a mistake. It is a conscious decision to do something potentially fatal to yourself and others. Then on top of that trying to hide it. Playing the army game well will not hide people's true personalities.

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made Feb 14 at 2015 4:49 PM

SSG Leonard Johnson — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 16:49:04 -0500

well...I'm not a Top Dog or anything like that. However yes of course there good Soldiers...Heck we been getting liquored up since 1492 ;)

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2015 4:55 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 16:55:46 -0500

CSM Private RallyPoint Member - You lost me at "never reported the DUI to the Chain of Command". A good Soldier must have an honest and open communication, including proactive dealing with the situation. If you TRULY were concerned about the situation, and KNEW you got busted for a willful wrong decision, or even a lapse in judgment, then you should have immediately gone to your chain and said "I'm sorry Sir/SGT....I messed up. I messed up real bad."

If someone cannot proactively intervene to prevent a DUI, and the Soldier cannot proactively notify the chain so that they don't get blindsided....that invalidates the good Soldier piece.

I would be willing to work with a penalty of a Soldier that came to my 1SG or myself with a major infraction....but if the confession is only under duress, then it is not really worth anything in my book.

All I can think of......"What a waste of an otherwise quality Soldier."
v/r,
CPT Butler

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made May 8 at 2015 8:21 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Fri, 08 May 2015 20:21:27 -0400

Alcohol is a depressant, and by thus by definition, depresses your bodily functions; your judgment and inhibitions being the first to be affected. So yes it is possible for someone who is typically a "good soldier" to make a bad judgment about their sobriety level and get a DUI. What is more telling is the PATTERN of behavior. Repeated bad decisions is more indicative of an issue.

Response by SGM Juan Martinez made Jun 25 at 2016 8:51 AM

SGM Juan Martinez — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 08:51:33 -0400

I am a retired SGM; there are such individuals as good Soldiers. Hard work, military bearing, esprit de corps does not negate lapses of integrity and sound judgement. And a momentary lapse of judgement certainly does not erase the hard work such a Soldier puts into a career. We need to step back and evaluate these issues from a much broader perspective than done within a single command. I always evaluated my Soldiers from the whole Soldier perspective and his/hers contribution now and in the future. We are Soldiers but, we are also human, we make mistakes. The question is one of deeper contemplation, what will he Soldier learn from this experience and how will he/she be a better asset to our Military now and in the future? Will this lesson make him/her more tolerant of those who will inevitably make these mistakes? Will we (military) gain the upper hand in terms of keeping good assets in service because we understand human nature?

Response by 1SG Bill Farmerie made Nov 5 at 2016 4:18 PM

1SG Bill Farmerie — Sat, 05 Nov 2016 16:18:43 -0400

I always recommended max for all. They made the decision, and should deal with the consequences. Good soldiers can over come this

Response by 1SG Tom Carter made Nov 5 at 2016 8:00 PM

1SG Tom Carter — Sat, 05 Nov 2016 20:00:06 -0400

How does Brock Turners victim feel about a "momentary lapse of judgement?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2016 9:14 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Nov 2016 21:14:21 -0400

Every DUI isn't the same, but every DUI is treated as a .22 in a school zone at 1530 during a school day. There are alot of great Soldiers that got one and they are/would still be great leaders. It's just the time that we live in. Organizations like MADD get on local judges if they don't prosecute any and all DUIs.
I know everyone walks around like their sheet doesn't stink.
Anyways....just my opinion.

Response by SSG Duane Tyler made Nov 6 at 2016 1:40 AM

SSG Duane Tyler — Sun, 06 Nov 2016 01:40:22 -0500

He's not a bad Soldier he's just sick and doesn't know it yet. I've seen 1 Star's who's problem was wine, I met a CWO5 today with 34 yrs was taken off of flight status and many more officers, Sr. and Jr. enlisted. The soldier has just shown a pattern of behavior and is probably not aware of it. You can give him/her a chance to save him/herself, career and family by getting them some help. We get ppl from all branches at Ft. Gordon from all regions at the 28 day Residential Treatment Facility (RTF). If you don't he will become more of a problem to himself, his unit and future assignments..... if he doesn't get kicked out 1st. I don't believe giving him an option since this is his 2nd incident. Command refer him instead of self referral...... well it's up to you. Either way give him a chance to help himself. He can't do it by him/herself......... NO ONE CAN. We get PPL from Korea all the time. Just tell him to be extremely honest on the Questionnaire if you choose to send him to ASAP for his evaluation.

Response by CSM Michael Sweeney made Nov 6 at 2016 5:17 PM

CSM Michael Sweeney — Sun, 06 Nov 2016 17:17:50 -0500

Measures for what is considered DUI versus all other levels has gotten so stringent that I personally won't drive even if I only intend to have one drink our two away from the house. Just too much to lose. Some might say they will start and finish with one, but soon convince themselves to have just one more. As has been said, the more you drink, the more your decision making skills erode. I witnessed more great soldiers ruin theirs and others lives because their leaders failed to take the correct actions early on. I've also seen great soldiers get help when they needed it and survive to become successful leaders themselves. (IE: me).

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Nov 7 at 2016 9:39 AM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 09:39:02 -0500

From a commanders perspective...one is an anomaly...two is a trend. Since this happened once and he didn't report it, I would seek serious but recoverable punishment based on previous performance. If he is the "good soldier" like you say he is, then he will retread, bounce back and give the Army what they need. He can also become the biggest advocate and outspoken soldier you have against DUI's. If he doesn't and his true colors shine, shake the dust off your boots and get rid of him. When it comes to accountability for actions the one thing I have found (that the rank and file don't understand) is that there isn't a one size fits all type of punishment. Every situation has its own merits.