The goal of socialism is communism....Lenin. Have you all forgotten?

SrA Art Siatkowsky — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:09:10 -0400

Have you all forgotten what communism means? What is does to the people of the nation it Infects? 100 million people killed by Stalin and Mao and it's already swept under the rug.
Because someone drives a nicer car than you....

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made Oct 23 at 2015 10:11 AM

SCPO David Lockwood — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:11:45 -0400

I have not but others on the hill have!

Response by TSgt David L. made Oct 23 at 2015 10:12 AM

TSgt David L. — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:12:10 -0400

Bernie seems to have plenty of followers.

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Oct 23 at 2015 10:12 AM

SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:12:54 -0400

SrA Art Siatkowsky great subject, I watched the making of evil leaders and it's just unbelievable how many perished under communism for no reason at all. I am glad to be an American for sure!

Response by SrA Art Siatkowsky made Oct 23 at 2015 10:15 AM

SrA Art Siatkowsky — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:15:00 -0400

"One man with a gun can control 100 without them"....Lenin

Response by SrA Art Siatkowsky made Oct 23 at 2015 10:16 AM

SrA Art Siatkowsky — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:16:54 -0400

" a lie told often enough becomes the truth "....Lenin

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2015 10:20 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:20:51 -0400

No I did not. but the youth had raised to believe capitalism is evil and heartless, socialist is a step to better, and ultimate evaluation of society is communism. What do you expect?

We are no longer in high-school, middle school ... if we don't pay attention to the school, most of us still think the school is teaching the same stuff we had been thought while we are in school. That is the problem... the education system for half a century, they are producing socialist ... guess what happen?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2015 10:43 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:43:36 -0400

So... all of Scandinavia and most of Europe is just a huge Communist sleeper cell then?

That 'the goal of socialism is communism' is an ignorant and uneducated statement. Crack open a book on the subject and you will soon see the distinct differences. I will not start schooling you on communism, because many can do that - but instead I will just say that there are socialist countries out there that are functioning just as well as we are... and I don't think Socialism is the best way for the USA, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work other places. Because it does, and has been for a century or so.

Response by SSG Michael Hartsfield made Oct 23 at 2015 10:56 AM

SSG Michael Hartsfield — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:56:54 -0400

To this I have but one statement: "Ugh."
More to follow as college is a little more important than....this topic

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made Oct 23 at 2015 11:33 AM

SGT Jeremiah B. — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 11:33:10 -0400

Life is not binary. Everything at its extreme is bad. We could also point to places where government is "so small you can drowned it in the bathtub." Those places are pretty crappy too.

So lets not pretend that just because someone did something wrong or took something too far, that the thing is inherently bad/evil/slippery slope. Otherwise, the logic used to protect everything we hold dear comes down like a house of cards.

Socialism and Capitalism are like Ying and Yang. Too much of either and we're going to be in trouble. The trick is finding the right balance...something humans seem pretty terrible at.

Response by SSgt Christopher Brose made Oct 23 at 2015 11:52 AM

SSgt Christopher Brose — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 11:52:08 -0400

It all starts with people who think they know what's better for you than you do -- and they're going to make those choices for you, whether you like it or not.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Oct 23 at 2015 12:16 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:16:07 -0400

Socialism, like Capitalism is just a tool in the toolbox of Government. If a tool works use it. If it doesn't find a better tool.

We use Socialism now. The Military uses Social Medicine, and Social Education. They are effective. They don't scale though. The VA is a Socialistic entity. For some of its mission is very good (Death benefits, education), while for others it is a bureaucratic mess (Health care).

Countries with 10~M people (Nordic) seem to do well with Socialism. They also aren't very diverse though. When you scale up to 320M... things get much trickier.

Now, capitalism or "democracy" is not immune to atrocities. We've put our own People in internment camps. We've experimented on our own People. We've done horrible things. Just because we're not Communism, and (nominally) not Socialism doesn't make us better. It just makes us different.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2015 12:47 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:47:13 -0400

That was Lenin's goal, yes. It was not the goal of the Father of Socialism, Karl Marx.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2015 1:04 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:04:47 -0400

I'm in no way - shape or form a supporter of socialism (of any kind). That being said, it's a small group's opine that all socialism leads to communism.

Socialism does tend to lead to majority government control over a large control of what normally is private enterprise (Capitalistic arena).

For those in agreement with SEN Sanders and his rhetoric of the Nordic states being an utopia that we should model ourselves after - you should do some research on the Nordic countries. One Nordic country has a 60+% tax rate on all income over 55,000/yr. Most products have 25% VAT. I may be +/- a few % points off or few thousand off on year earnings - but you can do the research. The other aspect is reports that show the Nordic countries have some of the highest suicide rates in the world - why is that, if it's such an utopia? Research has shown high binge drinking rates - more so then their eastern European counterparts. Anti-depressant medication dependency is higher as well. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3854846/)

Now, admittedly, I have not done thorough research to draw comparisons/correlations of all of the issues and what the root causes are. I know that the issues seem to be much higher in the Nordic countries than in the US, and to blame solely the socialist welfare platform would be a bit much - but does it have some impact?

As the Nordic countries have shown to a degree - socialism can work, albeit on a very small scale (something I tell people all the time) - but you're talking about countries in which we (USA) have cities with more people then any Nordic country. I do not think that socialism can and will ever work on a large country - due to numerous factors that quickly escalate and spin out of control.

Lastly, I'm a believer in the U.S. Constitution - and I believe our forefathers were some of the smartest men of their time and did very well to create a document that could withstand time (with appropriate amendments along the way) - with the last amendment being added in 1992 I believe. I'm also a believer in the capitalist model and self-correcting markets (which can't be done with government overreach and control).

We have a few retired vets on RP that live there and hopefully they can chime in.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/denmark/personal-income-tax-rate
http://taxfoundation.org/blog/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-their-government-spending

Denmark Personal Income Tax Rate | 1995-2015 | Data | Chart | Calendar

The Personal Income Tax Rate in Denmark stands at 55.60 percent. Personal Income Tax Rate in Denmark averaged 61.40 percent from 1995 until 2014, reaching an all time high of 65.90 percent in 1997 and a record low of 55.40 percent in 2010. Personal Income Tax Rate in Denmark is reported by the Danish Central Tax Administration. In Denmark, the Personal Income Tax Rate is a tax collected from individuals and is imposed on different sources of...

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2015 1:26 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:26:45 -0400

Lets forget politics for a moment and talk about facts. Fact is, you won't find "equality" anywhere without personal accountability. Period. People hate capitalism because it runs on money, not ideology. You want a nicer "X, Y or Z"...you have to have the money to buy it. You have to have the education to get the job to make the money to buy 'X, Y or Z"...you have to have the money to buy the education to...well, you get the drift. Any form of "socially driven" economics is based on the concept that what's good for the whole overrides what's good for the few...or the one. If you already have "X, Y or Z", this is disconcerting...if you don't, this sounds like a great idea.

The problems start when you suddenly find out that "X, Y or Z" has to be produced, maintained, etc. Someone has to build the house that everyone wants to live in...someone has to make the car everyone wants to drive. Somewhere, someone grows/raises/processes the food we eat.

Digging a ditch for a foundation is hard work and not much fun. Framing a house isn't much better. Someone's always going to try and find a way to get their cut without having to do as much actual labor. The people who do the labor often don't want to be bothered with the "details"...this leaves a loophole that's been exploited by "leaders" for millennia. Taken at the lowest level, this is how we got aristocracies in the first place. Over time, the "leaders" take on more and more managerial responsibility fostering the notion they are "better" and "deserve" more for their efforts than the people who would rather just do what they are told and get a guaranteed form of compensation. At some point, the irreconcilable truth emerges that one cannot exist without the other. When society recognizes that those who can expand their skills from labor to leadership are worth more...that's meritocracy. The military may be the last true form of meritocracy in America.

The problem with socialism/communism is that both maintain resentment for the concept of scaling value to compensation. This essentially removes any incentive for initiative. The day a President of the United States takes office, makes the White House a homeless shelter, gives his salary to the Treasury, and takes up residence in a two room apartment...I may re-structure my opinions. Until then, I'll remain convinced that socialist forms of economics and government are envisioned by the uninspired and enacted by the vengeful.

A better way of getting "change" and "equality" is to foster the idea that to whom much is given, much is required. You don't get people to be "fair" by removing identity and variance...you get them to be "fair" by teaching people to be geared towards compassion. You don't get "equality" by removing faith and family...you get it by teaching people that value is self-evident and should be sought out everywhere. Want to end corruption? Require more actual leadership from leaders.

It's all about whether or not we want to plot our own course, or have someone do it for us.

Response by COL Ted Mc made Oct 23 at 2015 2:37 PM

COL Ted Mc — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:37:39 -0400

SrA Art Siatkowsky - Airman; You might have missed what Jesus said about socialism and communism - He was all in favor of them.

But, like "Christianity" no one has actually tried "Communism" yet.

"Stalinism" was NOT "Communism" it was nepotistic, bureaucratic, monopoly, state capitalism coupled with a police state and it most certainly was not what either Lenin or Marx were talking about.

PS - Please don't think that I am advocating either "unbridled Socialism" or "unbridled Capitalism", there has to be a balance between protection of society and opportunity for individual initiative and that is almost always going to involve an ever changing balance between the two.