Syrian Refugees. Here is my position. Will you tell me yours?

SN Greg Wright — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 03:51:33 -0500

There isn't going to be any links to the myriad of information on this subject out there. This post isn't about that. This post is, to me, a method to muddle my way through a complex situation that has the potential to effect everyone I know, and everyone in my country, whom I don't.

First things first: if you read this as someone who cannot come off of the extreme left OR right points of view, then this post will be a waste of your time. If your mind is ironclad in your position, either way, then nothing I say here is going to contribute to your intellectual engagement.

So I will start with some basic concessions, if YOU will allow me the same courtesy a bit later in the post:

-- Whether or not we should take in 10000, 100000, 1000000 Syrian refugees is NOT, in a 'whole-picture' sense, a black and white issue. The issue is ensconced in a sea of grey that has room for EVERYONE, for and against, to wander, muddled, musing, maybe even torn. This post isn't going to help you resolve that, if that's you.

--It's highly likely that 98% (or so, the number is arbitrary, don't you dare latch onto it as an arguing point!) of those refugees are just like you and me: they want to get the hell out of dodge to a better life for themselves, and their families. I get that, I understand that, I CONCEDE that, for my more rabid readers who may make the assumption that I hate all things Syrian.

-- A moral argument can be made that better-off-humans should help less-better-off-humans. Yep, yep, I can see this viewpoint. So that'd be us, the good Ol' USA. It can be said that we should help where we can.

--It is certainly true that the vast majority of those refugees are running from Very Bad Things. I know this. You know it. We all know it. As a country, maybe even, we hold some measure of responsibility, for our destabilization of the Middle East. (I don't agree with this. I'm conceding that it's a valid point of view).

So here are the concessions I want from you:

-- Every human on the planet looks out for his/her own, first and foremost. You can post here, calling me to task for this statement, all you like, but at the end of the day, it's really pretty fucking simple: when confronted with a black and white situation where you have to allow one of YOURS to die in order to better the place in life of one of those refugees....you will REFUSE. I'm not asking. I'm TELLING you. This is what will happen:

SN Wright: "10 refugees will be fed, warm, and safe, so long as you're willing to give up one or more of those conditions for someone in your family."

Sgt/Sailor/Airman X: "Nope, I can do both. I can provide for my family AND 10 Syrian refugees.".

SN Wright: "Nope, you can't. There is a finite number of dollars, call it 100. Feeding your family, keeping them safe, COSTS that 100 dollars. So. If you want to extend those conditions to 10 Syrians, you have to choose whom among your family will go hungry...or remain unprotected."

I challenge you to tell me I'm wrong about this. Of course, the obvious counter-argument is 'But but but but THERE IS ENOUGH DOLLARS'.

No. No there's not. Allow me to flesh out my thought processes a bit, in order to explain this statement: to me, there are circles of 'MINE'. First and foremost, like everyone else, is my immediate family. Then extended family. Then fellow SM's and Vets. Then....every single AMERICAN out there. Yes. In my world view, they're my family BEFORE ANYONE ELSE IS. Now, I'm sure this is going to garner comments of 'You selfish bastard,' or 'You etho-centric prick', or whatever. That's fine. I'll take it. This post is about me and MY truth, so it's ok if you disagree.

So, back to my example. There's 100 dollars to get EVERYTHING possible, done, and YOU (the reader) are in charge of all of them. But there are caveats: 60 of those dollars can go towards feeding and keeping safe your immediate family. 20 of them can be allotted to your extended family. 10 of them can be allotted to security and safety (the military). You now have 10 discretionary dollars to spend on your 'super-extended' family (fellow Americans)....or Syrian refugees.

What do you choose?

If you disagree with me, your immediate reaction is going to be 'but that's not the case, there IS extra money, THERE IS!'. Again, I say: no. No matter how many trillions of dollars we can come up with, THE NUMBER IS FINITE.

Let me say that again: The number of dollars available IS FINITE. This cannot be argued. It's not open to debate. This is as immutable as gravity. If you drop a coke can [login to see] 0 times, it will fall DOWN, [login to see] 0 (I didn't count the zeroes so piss off if you're going to nit pick! :) ) times.

So. What do we give up, to give those Syrians a better life?

Veterans, and non-veteran Americans all over the country are homeless. American CHILDREN are homeless. Or can't get enough food. Can't make rent. Can't afford health costs. Our education system is in serious need of overhaul. Physical infrastructure (highways, bridges, rail lines, ports) are falling into disrepair. An over-bloated, INEFFECTIVE security apparatus (looking at you here, Homeland Security) -tries- to keep us safe, but...come on. We all know how THAT goes.

All of those situations are arising because we're ignoring them. We keep shipping some portion of those discretionary 10 dollars overseas, to do God Knows What. We sit here and argue about the credibility of AMERICAN WOMEN in combat, while we decry the plights of foreign women? Are you fucking kidding me?

Here's my position, at long last, as if it wasn't clear: ME AND MINE FIRST. And MINE includes every single goddamned AMERICAN on the planet, of any race, ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation, BEFORE anyone else. If you want me to care about people outside of that circle, outside of the AMERICAN circle, GIVE ME MORE THAN 100 dollars.

Thing is...you can't. Because they don't exist.

So bring on the hate, I can take it. I can afford a moment to consider your point of view. Will you do the same for me?:

We should take care of AMERICANS, before we take care of the world.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Nov 18 at 2015 4:08 AM

Capt Seid Waddell — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 04:08:11 -0500

The main question is not whether or not to help them; the question is WHERE to help them.
I would much prefer to carve out a safe zone in Syria protected by and supplied by the civilized world. These people do not have to be displaced.

The argument against bringing them here to the U.S. is that there are no data bases available to determine who these people are, and ISIS has said that it will use the refugees to slip fighters into Europe and the U.S. to kill us. Since we cannot tell the difference between the few killers and the mass of refugees, and since it only takes a few to do great damage, it is unwise to re-settle them here.

And finally, the experience in Europe is that they do not assimilate well, but form ghettos which breed discontent and Jihadis.

We do not need that here.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Nov 18 at 2015 4:32 AM

PO1 John Miller — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 04:32:23 -0500

Well stated Sir. America first and foremost. Everyone else can naff off!

Response by MAJ Bryan Zeski made Nov 18 at 2015 4:32 AM

MAJ Bryan Zeski — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 04:32:33 -0500

So, your argument seems to come down to, "It'd be nice to take care of everyone, but we can't afford it." To you, it's a money issue. That's understandable - I get that. So, here's some things I would give up to help some Syrians.

43x F-35 JSFs - average cost $200,000,000 - 43 of them gets me $8.6 billion to spend on Syrian refugees. The US wants to buy 2,443 F-35s. The Air Force loses less than 2% of their F-35 fleet (with little to no impact on the overall security posture of the United States) and I'm sure we can even take care of some of those homeless US Vets with that $8.6 billion as well.

Deal?

Response by A1C Charles D Wilson made Nov 18 at 2015 4:38 AM

A1C Charles D Wilson — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 04:38:49 -0500

Where ohhhhh where can I dare ask..UAE maybe?!?!?! With the oil money they have and all the land they have where are they? Do not say neighbors to me for I see nothing closer than Canada and Mexico being our close neighbors. I have no problem with true refugees but most of what I have seen have been healthy strong bs looking for a way out.

If we spread our states with Islamic Sharia law then our Constitution Laws will not apply anymore because they will out number us on votes and force congress to change the laws to meet the Sharia as our new law. Look at what is going on in Europe. They are fighting for their own countries rules yet Islamic members are trying to force Sharia as the law.

Before anyone goes slamming me on this...my family has been through this already being Native American so one change was enough for us. I was brought up..not being white and not being black and not counting to anyone but myself (I was raised in the South born 1966) so I have seen race issues and faced then with my head held high.Now back to the topic.

England has no go zones..Germany has no go zones..France has no go zones... heck we the great USA has no go zones due to say: Muslim or Islamic controlled areas. The no go zones are for your protection because you are not welcome there unless you are: Muslim or Islamic.

Maybe just a rant but maybe not...I am locked and loaded to protect my family is all I can tell you..

Chuck D

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Nov 18 at 2015 6:05 AM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:05:46 -0500

Keep them close to their homeland. We don't need note people here.

Response by PO1 Kenneth Cardwell made Nov 18 at 2015 6:13 AM

PO1 Kenneth Cardwell — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:13:15 -0500

The USA is part of the United Nations and part of the International community. Now if we are not going to help. then let's take our Billions out of the world and tell the world to deal with your own problems. a few thousand refugees is not going to hurt this country. It is the right thing to do and the Christian thing to do!

Response by PO2 Mark Saffell made Nov 18 at 2015 7:08 AM

PO2 Mark Saffell — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:08:22 -0500

I agree 100%. For those that want to turn a blind eye to the fact that EVERY truthful, note truthful person in the know will admit there is NO WAY. I will repeat that NO WAY to vet these people. So those that say we must bring them in are willing to bet my kids and my innocent grandsons life on that. YOU don't have that right. If you want to give up the life of your kids or grandkids...that's your choice BUT YOU do not have the right to bet my kids life on that. I wonder if the people that say bring them in are willing to give up there lives and there families lives if they bet wrong.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Nov 18 at 2015 8:18 AM

Col Joseph Lenertz — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 08:18:49 -0500

You are correct. Regardless of WHERE or HOW we support them, the question comes down to IF. And there IS a limited amount of money. Notice I didn't say dollars, because the Fed can print those or create them out of the ether of digital input. But that lowers the VALUE of dollars, reduces US creditworthiness, increase foreign lending rates, hurts the trade balance, etc, to the point that the total VALUE of the US has stayed exactly the same. The government cannot create VALUE (represented by the word money). So regardless of where, how or why we help the refugees, helping them represents greater a national debt burden on our own children and grandchildren. Somebody always pays.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 8:44 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 08:44:20 -0500

They are vetted
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2015/11/249613.htm

Background Briefing on Refugee Screening and Admissions

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 9:20 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:20:40 -0500

Well written post Mr. Wright.

There's two facets to the problem; First, is the United States ethically committed to help those seeking refuge from tyranny and certain death...I'd like to think so. The second facet, is just how do we do that without resulting in tyranny and death here at home, let alone the financial burdens you accurately spell out?

I think you've nailed the argument from a pragmatic perspective-In a choice between "us" and "them", it is logical to choose "us". The problem then becomes, just who do we call "us"...Natural born citizens, those who have legally been granted citizenship, those under official asylum, everyone currently in our borders, or anyone-anywhere yearning to breathe free?

If the United States becomes "isolationist", its only a matter of time before the rest of the world spins so wildly out of control, that we'll be forced into the fray, regardless. We tried that during the first decades of our existence, and got drawn into foreign wars. We attempted that before both World Wars...and ultimately ended up "mopping up" both. To be completely accurate, every war we've been in...including our own Revolution and Civil War, had international roots and implications.

To get truly Machiavellian for a moment, there's really only two options-Resolve that the financial implications dictate some form of Imperialism...or resolve that our penchant for attaching "cause" to "action" will eventually bring us into world conflict once again. I personally believe either could "work", but require a shift in our thinking.

Look at the "great" empires of the past; the Macedonians, Persians, Romans and British conquered weaker nations, then "included" them into the Imperial system...albeit at a distance. Send resources and taxes to the capital, and you get to keep your own religion, traditions, and a form of self-governance, not to mention arms and training. These systems only failed because populist or nationalist rebellions against those "puppet" governments overwhelmed them and strangled the Imperial economies. For many years, we did something a bit different...less "honorable" perhaps...but far more effective. We worked in the background, financing a "favorable" rebellion here...propping up a "for sale' dictatorship there..."The School of the Americas" and that sort of thing. This ultimately led to "home grown" governments powerful enough to quell the likes of "ISIS", and distant enough to keep our hands clean. This only worked so long as the average American was able to drive their two cars, eat their super-sized meals and continue to grow an economy built on a balance between cheap overseas labor and well-paid skilled labor at home. Inevitably, the hard-working, skilled labor class here succeeded in elevating their offspring to the next level...the population exploded...the demands exceeded the available resources, and what your're left with is a questioning and divided society eager to bite the hand that fed it.

Some seem to believe that there is a solution that allows everyone to have their "equal" share...This is overly-idealistic. Others, believe we can just blow the hell out of anyone in our way and carry on...This is short-sighted (if not evil). The wise know that if you truly and sincerely care for others, the best way to provide for them is to make them self-sufficient. If that means occupying their lands until the threat is destroyed...than that's what you do. If it means installing leadership that is friendly to American business interests...that's what you do. After a decade and a half, there ought to be Nike factories in Kabul and Apple factories in Basra. American tourists should be skiing the slopes of the Hindu Kush. By the way...THAT is what the average citizen of these troubled lands wants. What they DON'T want is the dissolving of their centuries-old beliefs, the emergence of manipulative and corrupt governments, or to sit around and talk about well-intentioned relief that isn't coming.

It's sad, but probably unavoidable...The sickness that eventually "kills" freedom isn't order...but the lack thereof.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 11:16 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:16:50 -0500

I do not believe that this is a monetary issue, although your premise about monetization in a macro-economy is on point. The cost is more of a moral one. When the President announced that we would take in 100k Syrians, he was subordinating the discussion, in my mind for political reasons, to get a debate going that distracts from the obvious failure of US policy in regards to Syria. And it works - we aren't talking about training Free Syrian Army muldoons or conceding leadership in the fight to Russia or Iran, we are talking about a domestic issue now and social justice... exactly the topics the President wants to talk about at this stage. It is a classic redirection. And we are falling for it.
Back to my point.
The moral imperative of the USA is to welcome those who wish to breathe free. It is what we are founded upon, and every last one of you (save the occasional Native American members) is the descendant of immigrants, or one yourself. Nothing makes an Irishman fleeing the Troubles or the Potato Famine any different or better than a Cambodian fleeing the Killing Fields or a Somali fleeing the conflict there. NOTHING. There were criminals in every group. There were Japanese spies, and German ones. Folks with sympathies to the British Empire or the Soviet Union. Yet, we persevered. The spirit of America has brought us this far.
The questions I ask myself are twofold:
1. Does the spirit of America still live? I watch current events, and sadly I have to admit that it does not. We are so busy being entitled and offended and oppressed that we have given up our drive to build the American Dream and replaced it with a drive to be on the dole. This policy only brings others onto the dole, and I will be asked to pay for not just my neighbors, but also some foisted upon me by a government that would rather serve their own interests over mine - including some who are actually my enemy. That is a bitter pill to swallow.
2. Do I trust my government to "vet" these people and ensure the security of my family and my nation? For the answer, I need only to look to the South, where known criminals are released back into the public on their own recognizance despite egregious crimes because "the prisons are full" or some misguided "Sanctuary City" conceit. A government that is ineffective in dealing with a current problem should not be actively pursuing making that problem bigger, and likely diverting assets away from the latent issue in order to service the newly-introduced one. This makes no sense... unless it is purposeful. And I think that it is.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Nov 18 at 2015 11:19 AM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:19:41 -0500

There are several points to consider.
1) as I've seen posted all over the Internet lately, Joseph and Mary were Syrian refugees...
2) let's remember US History. Many ships full of Jewish refugees during the Holocaust were turned away from US ports; they were sent back to Germany and their deaths in many cases.
3) ALL US citizens (with the exception of First Nations/Native Americans) ARE immigrants (or come from them). It is disingenuous to say that we were allowed to come in, but other immigrants should not be allowed to come in.
4) There are ways to put essentially all unemployed Americans and immigrants to work, that will GENERATE revenue, not cost it - an example is a massive Public Works/Infrastructure program. If set up to employ Americans and recent immigrants, but NOT hire foreign workers, use US made materiel, etc., it would generate more revenue, imho, than it would cost in taxes, because of the multiple layers of jobs created by such a program. Sadly, this won't happen today, because CONgress is not insightful enough to do this. Such programs saved the US from the Depression, and they can do it again...

On the opposite side, is very visceral fear, especially after Paris. Because "all Arabs look alike" (not all Muslim immigrants are Arabs) and speak Arabic, a foreign language in an alphabet we can't even decode, we feel threatened. Further is the issue of insurgent warfare that has gone on in the Middle East for far too long. Because of this, and 9/11, there is an inherent distrust of Arab immigrants to Europe and the US.

In previous wars (before Vietnam) it was relatively easy to tell who the enemy was. We can't do that now, so we fear all. Vietnam is a good example to consider, as well. Look at the huge number of Vietnamese refugees who came to the US after the war. They have been very successful in the US, as have most Jewish immigrants in US history. If given a chance, perhaps Arab immigrants could be as well...

Georges Santayana taught that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I fear that the US, by and large, has NEVER learned this lesson...

Response by CPO Joseph Grant made Nov 18 at 2015 11:19 AM

CPO Joseph Grant — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:19:43 -0500

This is a very well written post. I'm afraid I'm probably one of those people who is extreme right in that I do not believe we should allow a single Syrian or Muslim in to our nation. Like many on here I too have been in the Middle East. I am not willing to help those even if it's a small percentage to kill me or any other American. Supposedly Islam is a caring cult and so I'm sure there are many Muslim countries out there who can take them in. I know I'll be crucified for this post but is it Chief Petty Officer I don't care

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Nov 18 at 2015 1:49 PM

PO1 Glenn Boucher — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:49:29 -0500

I agree that we have to take care of our own before we take care of the world.
The biggest problem with Syrian refugees is similar to the Lost Boys of Sudan. There is no real way to verify that these people are legitimately fleeing Syria because of persecution by whoever is after them or that they are terrorists slipping in.
I think that its irresponsible to bring these people in and scatter them throughout our country without proper verification of who they are because we are only asking for bigger problems.
Setting up some zones in their own country, while ideal is not really going to work well because as we know already terrorists don't respect those kind of zones just like they don't respect hospitals, schools or even mosques so they sure as hell will not respect a safe zone. And the other problem with a safe zone is who will keep it safe? The UN? They are a huge joke. And while we know that the US would be more than willing to do it, it will add strain to our already strained military and because our military would be guarding this area it would attract more terrorist attacks.
This whole Middle East situation is never going to be resolved until the leaders of each nation and each faction can sit down and have civilized discussions and resolve the differences. But we also know that there is too much cultural and religious differences between the groups for them to successfully come to peace because none of them seem willing to compromise.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Nov 18 at 2015 2:56 PM

LTC Stephen F. — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:56:47 -0500

SN Greg Wright thanks you for initiating a poignant and timely discussion.
I concur with your position in general. I certainly support taking care of USA citizens first. We have 20 million or so illegal aliens from this hemisphere already before we add to the 2,000 Syrians or so who came here since 2011. Many of the Governors and Legislatures of the states which accepted this refugees have decided they do want to take any more Syrians.
I believe those refugees seeking and meeting asylum requirements should be accepted. I fully support rescuing many people whose life are at risk in Syria - the Yazdi, Christians, Druze, and families of the government supporters of Assad would be good examples. These people need to be screened before they enter this country.
ISIS is doing there best to follow the wahhabi doctrine they adhere to. They are expanding their
Most Syrian refugees should stay as close to their home country as possible. Bringing a couple hundred thousand of them 1/3 of the way around the world to this country which is radically different from their own makes little sense for them and for us.
Most refugees would most likely desire to return to Syria when things have stabilized. If they were sent to this nation some would embrace a new beginning but many would be dissatisfied with their new situation where they would have to start over again in many cases and a few would actively seek the destruction of what they see as their enemies way of life.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 18 at 2015 4:00 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:00:58 -0500

I am more worried about their ideology.

Response by Sgt Nick Marshall made Nov 18 at 2015 4:33 PM

Sgt Nick Marshall — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:33:21 -0500

Very good point looking at it from an economic viewpoint. I look at it from more of a moral viewpoint, we created this mess (which can be argued) so we should bear some of the responsibility of trying to make things right, in addition to the usual arguments that we are a nation of immigrants (mostly), and the Statue of Liberty saying something about giving us you poor and helpless.
On the economic area immigrants usually add to the economy, while you use the $100 analogy, I prefer to think of it as a pie, they can help to make the pie bigger, yes that $1 or 1% may stay at 1, but it may increase in size, IMHO

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 9:12 PM

LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:12:51 -0500

I don't think it helps them (or America) to ship people here who do not speak our language or share our culture... I mean what are they going to do? Work? School? How?

Once they're here how do we take care of them? Housing/Health Insurance/Education... At what cost?

Meanwhile other well off countries like Saudi Arabia (who share a similar culture/religion/laws/maybe language... Refuse to take any refugees at all and no one seems to care because they're too busy guilt tripping America and Europe.

Also considering the security risks I think taking the refugees is a bad bad idea.

Response by PV2 Scott Goodpasture made Nov 18 at 2015 9:18 PM

PV2 Scott Goodpasture — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:18:49 -0500

Response by PO1 Bill Adams made Nov 18 at 2015 10:21 PM

PO1 Bill Adams — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 22:21:35 -0500

I like the idea of carving out a safe zone in Syria, and let them stay there. Get muslim countries in the region to pay for food and whatever else is needed.
Then defeat ISIS.
Arm the Kurds, they are already taking territory from ISIS, help them, give them air support.
There's more that could be done. Ask some Generals and Admirals. I was just an E6. :)

Response by PO2 Wesley Wilson made Nov 19 at 2015 1:24 AM

PO2 Wesley Wilson — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 01:24:52 -0500

As I look at the last names of all the people that responded to SN Greg Wright I see none that are American, yet all of them are. Our Nation is special because its history started someplace else. Irish, Russian, African men an woman of all nations have come to America to have true Freedom, that thing that we so take for granted and that many of our ancestors fought and died to taste.

Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

I don't know the answer to the question, I do know that we must remember that we are a melting pot. We must stay true to what we are and rejoice in knowing that beacon of American freedom can still be seen around the world. I dont know what the answer is, but I do know that the Enemy has won when we as Americans close our hearts and minds to the very things that made US great.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2015 7:23 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:23:28 -0500

Accepting refugees is just a relief .... the root cause is .... ISIS/ISIL .... Destroy them. problem solve.

(I am against accepting any refugees ... enough of that topic)

Response by PO2 Robert M. made Nov 19 at 2015 11:51 AM

PO2 Robert M. — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:51:19 -0500

In my humble and personal opinion, being a 100% Service Connected Disabled Veteran, I believe we should TAKE CARE OF OUR VETERANS, OUR DISABLED VETERANS, AND OUR VETS MENTAL AND PHYSICAL HEALTH PRIOR TO ACCEPTING ONE REFUGEE!!! My Great GrandParents came from the "old country" the legal and proper way. EVERYONE SHOULD!!!

Response by CMDCM Richard Moon made Nov 19 at 2015 3:12 PM

CMDCM Richard Moon — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 15:12:05 -0500

Your premise starts off with the idea and concession that we are partly responsible for this. AQ predates Iraq and Afghanistan. Daesh is a child of AQI. This sectarian war was always coming. In fact, It's opening shots prior to 1991, were the Iran-Iraq war. Go back further and you can see it's most current genesis in the mid-60's. Sorry, the Muslim world owns this conflict lock-stock and barrel. We're it's eventual and complete target.

Second, name one government program that does anything than a one-sized fits all approach? I spent nearly 4 years assigned to the US Dept of State. The numbers and time frame that this president is quoting will overwhelm anything that State and DHS have set up to vet and screen them. If you can ever agree that allowing this risk within our borders, then have at it - in your neck of the woods, not mine.

Why people are ok with Daesh operating within our borders is appalling.

There is no reason in the world why we can't send forces into Syria - and Iraq, carve out safe zones, and fund NGO's to care for these people. Why Daesh is allowed to even exist is something that I'll argue is worth debating as the cause for some - not all - of the current mass emigration.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2015 3:40 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 15:40:45 -0500

Well well! I knew it'll come about! My point on this is : 1) America itself is known for the opportunity of freedom! The Syrian refugees are coming here to escape war or civil war or better yet ISIS. We have about 10,000 plus vets that that money could be used on but yet we have no money! Doesn't seem right!
2) I've heard the VP of the US say , " It shows who we are as people" well well!
3) it'll take up to a year to do a screening on everybody make and female! Language barrier big time! In my mind and heart I don't trust the decision to bring them here cause we don't know what they are capable of! The have a list of states and cities to hit! So, as far as my family or other service members , I'm standing firm for them not to be here! Just my opinion!

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Nov 19 at 2015 3:51 PM

SSG Warren Swan — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 15:51:39 -0500

Brother I have an opinion on this, but there are those RARE times, where I believe it's best to just be quiet. "We should take care of AMERICANS, before we take care of the world"...THAT I fuckin believe with every fiber in me. "Americans should WANT to take care of their fellow Americans'. I'm waiting on that one. If there isn't a price tag or some kind of recognition attached, most won't. Reason number [login to see] [login to see] [login to see] [login to see] 4, why I'm partial to my own. They didn't let anything happen to me, and I won't let anything happen to them. It's all in the oath I took 21 years ago. I'll do what I'm told.....but it damn sure better protect my brothers and sisters here.

There are seven pints of blood in the body (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not talking shit because I do not believe in wanton needless violence. But to get a good nights sleep how much do we need to spill to be left alone? When are those who live with the hard decisions going to get a break? When is it going to be enough? When are we finally going to get taken care of the same way we ensure the wanna be wolves never get to our sheep? When can we be the boogey men and women? When are other countries going to look under their beds and in their closets before they go to bed? I know someone will say it's Obama's fault, but it's bigger than him, or Bush. It's a simple respect thing. It's a "gentleman's code" thing IMO. Something that others don't have, but only binds us being we do.
When are we finally going to get past the BS that seems to surround us and finally have that "come to Jesus moment"? The most dangerous dysfunctional functioning country in the short history of man, and we can't seem to rally around ourselves long enough to see what's in front of us, what needs to be done, longer than it takes network tv to play with the minds and divide us even further.
One percent of America ensures she's the safest and most prosperous land in the world.
That One Percent has NOT failed in it's mission ever.

Response by MCPO Katrina Hutcherson made Nov 19 at 2015 4:03 PM

MCPO Katrina Hutcherson — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 16:03:05 -0500

SN Greg Wright. I think most members of RP would agree with you that we should take care of our citizens first. I feel however, that we shoulder a lot of the responsibility for the rise of Daesh and therefore we have an obligation to fix it. We did cause a huge power vacuum with our poor execution of the war and then made it worse by setting up an Iraqi government and then leaving them without mentoring and support. So when we left it didn't take long for the old and deadly rivalry between Shiite and Sunni to divide the country and for Noori Maliki to purge the Sunnis from top government positions. When will we learn that everyone doesn't want democracy?? We can't morally send back families that would be in grave danger caught in a civil war and the terror of Daesh. We can and should turn back refugees joining the mass exodus for economic reasons, they are coming from North Africa, Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Pakistan. We can also turn back unaccompanied able bodied males to countries like Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE and Jordan (where there are already large numbers of them in refugee camps). There we can train and arm them to be the ground troops needed to defeat Daesh. IMHO, they should be fighting for their country and we should be supporting them to both defeat Daesh and to fill the power vacuum with a government that will work for them and not threaten and destabilize their neighbors.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Nov 19 at 2015 8:02 PM

SGT Richard H. — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 20:02:46 -0500

My position on it is exactly the same as my position on any other refugee, immigrant, etc. If you come to us individually and subject yourself to our individual policies and processes, then be welcome. If you expect us to bring you by the shipload, set you up a place to live, and give you an income...well....we have our problems, you have yours. They are not the same problems.

Response by TSgt Kenneth Ellis made Nov 19 at 2015 9:23 PM

TSgt Kenneth Ellis — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 21:23:55 -0500

I hate long post. I hate my long replays. But I heard from an Obama mouth piece. That they have to stay out of trouble for three months. Then they a legal residence and in a pathway to citizenship. Just like the Boston Bombers. We are moving these people half way across the globe. And the majority are men who should be in the military. And has a President had such disdain for the people who put him into office? It's time for the Arab states to step up. I did hear that Jordon has taken in refugees.

Response by SGT Bryan O'Reilly made Nov 20 at 2015 2:02 AM

SGT Bryan O'Reilly — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 02:02:07 -0500

Hay, sailor!
Thanks for your service, brother.
I am a single guy but i already agreed to house and feed 1 refugee and here's why. We have for years tried to blunt the edge of Achmeds scimitar, it was very hard won to get the allies we have. We are (or were) keeping a promise made. The fact that we have had extremists calling for genocide on all Muslims feeds right into that recruiting model. Some time back a guy in Florida wanted to burn the Koran on 911. The problem with this was that 1.5 billion Muslims in 47 countries we are not at war with or also watching what we do and how we react. Before 75 when we ended the draft OPSEC never would be discussed like this. In 2010 Gen Mc Chrystal wrote an open letter urging restraint in social media? He said there are 47 nations that call themselves Muslim None we were (or are) at war with, some with 1st strike ability, and we had 130k boots in Afghanistan trying to convince locals we awere not there to eat their children the Imams were coming on line to print out the worst of these posts to circulate among locals who are very insulated and recruit new bad guys. I believe in vetting but I also know that we do not win this war without the help of Muslim allies. Period. IMO. This says we do not stand by our allies and isolates us as it emboldens ISIS IMO I also believe that I am more inclined to side with history and common sense than I am politicians who never served ginning up a hostile base to score cheap political points. Our values are always our values or we are no better then the goat lovers
Edit

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Nov 20 at 2015 12:12 PM

SSG Warren Swan — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:12:05 -0500

Brother, my response was incomplete being I had to think about what I said after I said it. The United States prides itself on her ability to do the following:

New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

This is the inscription on the Statue Of Liberty. This is why I wasn't 100% sure with my initial response. The US wants to have it's cake and eat it too. We can go out and blast other countries for their use of internment camps, but neglect the fact we did too. Not in the same way the Germans did, but in spirit it's the same. Trump made me think HARD on what I said before when he advocated the use of them again and then Carson calling them "rabid dogs". When I heard that you can tell a Christian because they are Christian, I wanted to scream WTF are you talking about? Do I have a scarlet letter on me telling the world I'm Christian? Do any of you? Maybe the Christian test is to say what John 3:16 said...well I remember it two ways; God gave up his own son for us (shortened version), and Stone Colds version of "It means I kicked your ass". What version is the "Christian" one? Maybe it's a "look" to tell us apart. I have a full beard. If I took off my stache, I'd look like a "Muslim"? If I look at Mecca, I'm no longer a Christian looking for knowledge, I'm an Islamic Terrorist. There's NO WAY a pure bred American would dare look towards Mecca without wanting to bomb it. I'm NEVER embarrassed to be what I am. I've NEVER been ashamed to blast it out what I am. I've NEVER ONCE been embarrassed to say I am a Soldier. With the BS mainstream media is pushing, the candidates are talking, and the division it's causing in the name of WHAT other than clicks, ratings, and revenue, I am questioning myself. These assholes cannot be what I swore to defend. These assholes who claim to know more about everything than I do, cannot be the same rational American I try HARD to be. These same mutherfuckers cannot be the SAME bitches who will sit in a god dammed woodlined office SAFE with their families ands tell me I or my brothers and sisters, HAVE to go "Save America" from WHAT? Who am I fighting? Why are we fighting? Are you leading the way? "No Son, my job is here protecting the values of the American public"....Sir my brothers and sisters ARE the American public, and we protect them VERY WELL. "Son, great lives have to be sacrificed to ensure our way of life"....how many lives sir? Are your kids/grand kids part of the "great lives lost"? I'm sitting here typing this ashamed knowing that someone who is catering to a specific view is actually telling someone this, and they're buying it. This kid has no clear guidance other than to HATE based off skin color, religion, and geological location, and this poor sap will HATE and KILL without really having a clue as to why. This kid could be one of our Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Airmen. He's going to look to us for guidance. What are we going to tell him? "You will follow the orders of those appointed over you"....great cop out. I meant what I said in my last post, but comments made by "great American's" have tainted what I firmly believe. I wonder how the Slaves felt while being held before sale rotting in a camp? I wonder how the Native American's felt when their lands were taken and they were given shit in the middle of nowhere with empty promises? I wonder how the Japanese felt when based off complexion and fear they were rounded up and put on camps in the middle of nowhere and called "less than American"?. I could go on with just about ANY nationality in the US having been forced at one point or another to be in a place they didn't want to go after pursuing the "American Dream". I forget the name of the movie where Bruce Willis is begging the government NOT TO do what they wanted him to do. He gave them examples and numbers to justify NOT rounding up everyone that was of "olive complexion", or "Middle Eastern" complexion. The government told him to do it anyways and it went just as he said. Denzel Washington was in this movie too shot in NYC. I am hurt seriously by the lackluster caliber of people we call our "representatives". I'm embarrassed to say I know who they are, and they are "countrymen". I'm shocked, yet not surprised one of these clowns will carry the title of POTUS. Where does that leave us? Is that PVT's dreams and hopes worth less than that Senator who doesn't care about anything but his next reelection? Is that Generals family more important than mine? I can't think or find ONE ass on this Social Media site who is worth MORE than me, nor can I find one who is worth LESS than me. Let the media tell it....I'm worth about $2.45. the cost of one gallon of gas to get that politician to his next stop to spew more hate. The cost of one gallon of fuel to supply power to that mainstream media site who is spending twice as much making our neighbors our new enemies. I seriously thought I was worth more....but I'm not.

Response by CPL Randy Bautista made Nov 20 at 2015 10:20 PM

CPL Randy Bautista — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 22:20:45 -0500

I personally can't argue with that. I would argue instead of bringing them over I'm more concerned about what they are bringing over. They want to come over fine set up camps separated from the population where they can reestablish their lives. I'm against them coming over. I think it's a bad idea for my own personal reason, but I also can't turn a blind I I believe there has to be a way to secure the population, and I don't believe that is even possible

Response by SPC George Rudenko made Nov 20 at 2015 10:35 PM

SPC George Rudenko — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 22:35:48 -0500

As the Customs guy, refugees will get at least an hour interview by CBP including fingerprint and photo. That is more than anyone has done. That said, we can not turn our backs on the principles America was founded on

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Nov 20 at 2015 10:49 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 22:49:27 -0500

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2015 2:20 AM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 02:20:05 -0500

Let's focus on Americans who work hard every day and still can't get by.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Nov 22 at 2015 2:00 AM

SN Greg Wright — Sun, 22 Nov 2015 02:00:49 -0500

CMDCM Richard Moon MCPO Katrina Hutcherson Master Chiefs, as a member of RP who's been here a relatively short time (6 months or so), I've seen Capt L S Vary widely in his approach to dealing with divisive issues, but for the most part, he's walked the line between disdain and vitriolic.

What I've never seen, here on RP or in real life, is a junior officer disrespect two E-9's..(Or even one, really). I apologize to you both that my thread was the cause of it. I would have posted this in the actual sub-thread, but he apparently blocked us all, and I can't.

Response by MSG Tim Gray made Nov 22 at 2015 3:13 AM

MSG Tim Gray — Sun, 22 Nov 2015 03:13:22 -0500

I've been saying this for awhile now, how can we help others when we can't help our own! Do it right the first time.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2015 7:53 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:53:22 -0500

It’s somewhat ironic

Brother, if there are 1 billion Muslims in the world, and there are anywhere from 10% to 25% that are extremists, that means anywhere from 100 MILLION to 250 MILLION are potential threats. There are videos right now showing groups of MAMs (military-aged males) in the hundreds “fleeing” across Europe.

Is it possible to extrapolate the fact that 10%, 15%, or 25% of the potential refugees are “refugees”, and have an ulterior motive? Take a bowl of, say, M & M’s, a nice, even 100 of those delicious pieces of candy-coated chocolate drops. Between 10 and 25 of them are poisoned with cyanide. Still want to dip your hand in there and grab some candy?

Think of this, also: the Arab countries don’t want to take the refugees because they’re concerned about extremists infiltrating the herd and starting unrest in whatever country they are in. If the ARABS are concerned, how much more so should WE be concerned?

Response by HN George Gilstrap made Nov 23 at 2015 5:39 AM

HN George Gilstrap — Mon, 23 Nov 2015 05:39:33 -0500

I would say help them in a arab country not here isee pictures of military age men they need to go back and fight for their freedom we did 200 plus years ago its their turn I say take care of the US first period.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2015 8:28 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Nov 2015 08:28:43 -0500

It cost me about a thousand dollars of fly from Germany to the US. and we are going to spend to take care of them. My problem with this is our federal government is out of money and keeps trying to do more and more. The problem is we don't have any money left. We need to cut spending a lot and well we don't have the cash to spend on them.