Stolen valor, much ado about nothing?

2015-03-21T08:42:30-04:00

To be honest, I agree. Nothing is stolen. Nothing is lost. Valor is a concept, an abstract. It cannot be stolen. It cannot be traded, it cannot be created or destroyed. Pride and respect cannot be taken from you, only you can give it up. What Peter Schmuckatelli does in Ohio in no way can diminish your own internal sense of pride and respect. Intangibles like that are completely ethereal, as strong or as weak as the owner makes them.

Your thoughts?

That Valor Isn’t Yours To Defend

Valor cannot be claimed and doesn’t need to be defended because it can’t be stolen, so stop beating people up over it.

Response by MAJ Jim Steven made Mar 21 at 2015 9:16 AM

2015-03-21T09:16:52-04:00

I will offer this...
The person that goes out and buys a military uniform and some ribbons and tabs is more likely to do something to embarrass me, an actual service member, than a guy who also did some legitimate time in uniform.
I never jumped or went to ranger school. If that makes me a lightweight, then so be it, but I am an honest lightweight, and my service record is legit.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2015 11:50 AM

2015-03-21T11:50:54-04:00

Personally, (just my opinion and no disrespect intended) I believe that if you think valor cannot be stolen, then you may not fully understand the gravity and significance of the sacrifice of those who came before.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Mar 21 at 2015 11:55 AM

2015-03-21T11:55:26-04:00

The issue isn't that they are putting on a uniform or medals. They are often using that false persona for personal gain. That is the definition of fraud.

Response by MSgt Michael Durkee made Mar 21 at 2015 12:39 PM

2015-03-21T12:39:29-04:00

I do believe that a majority of the Stolen Valor cases are mental health related and people looking for recognition for something they haven't accomplished. Much like the "Red Badge of Courage".
For those that are using the uniform for financial gain and/or political favor...they need to be publicly called out and prosecuted to the highest extent.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2015 1:06 PM

2015-03-21T13:06:07-04:00

The way I look at it there are differences. Wearing unauthorized uniform is not always steeling valor, it is impersonation. Wearing medals or devices for valor on or off a uniform to include tattoos of them, is steeling valor.

I don't like impersonators regardless if they are steeling valor or not. Their actions reflect poorly on the services as a whole. When they brag about their 6 fantasy tours in Iraq/Afghanistan and their 200 confirmed kills, it makes us look like we are a bunch of madmen. They can potentially harm future vets, because civilians will think that we are all a bunch of crazy nut cases, too unstable to act appropriately in a job. This could have future employment consequences to veterans.

Now on the same token, service members getting into physical confrontations on the subject do the same thing. The video of the guys slapping the kid outside the bar does not impress me. Those actions validate that we are a bunch of loose cannons. If people are going to confront someone on the subject, doing it in a rational manner is the best course of action.

Average joe blow sees that video and might think everyone in a uniform behaves that way. Both steeling valor and the poor confrontations are not the image I want people portraying my service.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Mar 21 at 2015 3:52 PM

2015-03-21T15:52:59-04:00

Stolen Valor is necessary for all the people who try to gain benefits from looking like a bag of moldy bagels.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2015 3:57 PM

2015-03-21T15:57:29-04:00

What is gained is usually money by these individuals. They say they are doing for the suicides and to bring awareness or people are homeless but are not doing anything at all. Then there are those who go through their various and difficult courses and some rube playing soldier who couldn't tell the difference between a medal of honor and a PME ribbon. So, this is a big deal and just like impersonating any other profession, doctor, nurse, ATC or anything is else, is just wrong.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Mar 21 at 2015 4:05 PM

2015-03-21T16:05:19-04:00

For someone to claim they completed valorous and/or heroic deeds without doing so is a dang coward and its an act of cowardice and those cowards ought to be called out!

Valor is an act of courage not an act of cowardice and when our services members (military and law enforcement) are recognized for it, it is typically recognizable by an award or honor given to that hero (or their survivors) for the valorous/heroic deeds of said hero.

Response by SPC Cedar Bristol made Mar 21 at 2015 4:06 PM

2015-03-21T16:06:26-04:00

If a dealership offers a 10% discount for veterans of OIF, you never served, or like me, got out before the current conflicts, and you claim the discount, you have actually stolen something, and I would like to see that prosecuted.

If you attend political rallies wearing medals you haven't earned and use those unearned medals to draw attention to your views, you have stolen something that is harder to quantify, and impossible to prosecute but that I would still consider a theft that needs to be called out publicly.

If you are participating in group therapy designed to help veterans deal with PTSD and you haven't really been, then you are actually stealing something far more expensive than the hypothetical discount in my first paragraph, I would like to see jail time for anyone who does this.

If you are contributing to a public perception that combat veterans are damaged and less likely to function in society, and if that perception is not accurate you are doing something worse than stealing.

BG Burkett's book Stolen Valor cites a study that looked at actual Vietnam combat veterans and made real effort to restrict their sample to real vets. They found that on average they were slightly more financially successful than the general population and suffered from mental illness at about the same rates as the overall population. I haven't looked carefully at the study, but it makes sense to me.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2015 5:05 PM

2015-03-21T17:05:23-04:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member started a similar thread a while back. Yes I think service members get way too wound up about it. If you need proof check his thread out.

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/stolen-valor-one-soldier-s-opinion

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Mar 21 at 2015 5:59 PM

2015-03-21T17:59:53-04:00

Valor is a word and it has a definition. It is not just a concept that is unknowable or oblique or abstract. The definition of valor is: boldness or determination in facing great danger, especially in battle; heroic courage; bravery.

Stolen Valor is the term used to encompass a number of infractions but mostly the wearing of an official (or close to it) uniform with medals and other decorations never earned. The uniform itself with no medals is stealing valor in my opinion. I will use my service as an example.

We earn the title Marine and the uniforms, emblems, customs and courtesies that come with it. We serve the nation and we own that uniform and all it represents. Almost every detail of our uniforms has a significance to our Marine heritage and our nation. Marines have fought and died in our uniforms and they are ours. If someone dons one they are attempting to steal (or ascribe to themselves) the valor the Marine Corps has earned during our existence.

The addition of medals and decorations is attempting to bestow personal valor and courage on that individual for things they have never done. If your uniforms and emblems and customs, mean nothing to you, so be it. We have buried too many Marines in Dress Blues (and other uniforms) to have some asshole put it on and try to play the part. I will set aside here people that clearly have mental disorders and may not know what they are doing.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2015 7:25 PM

2015-03-21T19:25:04-04:00

The problem is the label and the source of the argument.

1) You cannot steal valor... Valor is an abstract attribute to an individuals actions. Therefore cannot be stolen, simply a false claim.

2) Misrepresenting military service means that you're faking something you are not. This doesn't anger me, I honestly feel sorry for them. If you have to claim service that you haven't had to make yourself feel better, it's because you don't have the courage to go forth and do it in reality.

3) On a final note... the uniform is sacred... to say that its all fine and good is ignorant to the fact that the uniform represents certain values. To wear it without earning it isn't insulting, but is a statement of ignorance. This is similar to when the US flag is inappropriately handled, burned, cut, or otherwise mishandled. The vast majority of those who do this don't have the comprehension of what the flag stands for and the history behind it.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Mar 21 at 2015 9:25 PM

2015-03-21T21:25:57-04:00

Yes it matters...
On several levels , and not at all on some as well.

One, there is the public perception that the stolen valor schmuck presents.. ,,, if it is, for lack of a better term "good" or not embarrassing to the service he falsely represents, then no big deal,,,they are still a schmuck, but no real damage is done.
If they are committing illegal acts or otherwise appearing to be a dishonorable service member in public, and the public perceives them to be a service member, then the schmuck has done damage and should be held accountable

Then there is, Stolen valor schmuck who fraudulently takes service or something of value.. ..or otherwise profits or has an advantage by falsely presenting himself .. A: They have taken advantage of the giver, and that likely will affect their willingness to trust and offer again later,, thus denying a real service member from that opportunity. B: even if the fraudulently action is not realized by the generous giver... it still is a "something" no longer available to a real servicemember .. this, is in fact a real theft.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 21 at 2015 10:26 PM

2015-03-21T22:26:11-04:00

I agree to an extent... But, generally when this is done, mental health related or otherwise... The poser is doing this gain something, which doesn't have to be just monetary. Obviously, we in uniform, take this more seriously, as it is personal to us. We know how hard it is to earn many of those awards, badges and devices... And, in this era, we have all lost many friends who actually did wear these uniforms.

What is even worse, if when someone who is/was actually in, wears badges and awards they are not authorized... I have seen this many times... NCOs and Officers, and for those who were on active duty.... they ended very badly...

It is a big deal, and it is emotional. But, where should this fall in the world of criminal behavior... I am not really sure.

How is that for equivocation?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2015 1:02 AM

2015-03-22T01:02:45-04:00

Charles Robert Williams
Private First Class
8" HOWITZER PLT, 5TH 155MM GUN BTRY, 1ST BN,
13TH MARINES, 3RD MARDIV, III MAF
United States Marine Corps
Oakland, California
December 18, 1948 to May 06, 1968
CHARLES R WILLIAMS is on the Wall at Panel 56E, Line 18
See the full profile or name rubbing for Charles Williams

Seriously go talk to the family of this Vietnam Veteran who died during that war. The have people wear the uniform and claim that they were veterans who are seals, won a certain medal, etc. You know why you wouldn't? It would burst your bubble. Any name on that wall or the dead in Iraq, SA, Jordan, wherever and it matters to them. We can quibble about this crap but we are alive to do it, those young people gave their lives for all of us.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2015 8:19 AM

2015-03-22T08:19:53-04:00

Those of us who understand the sacrifice and dedication it takes, "Stupid is as stupid does" to quote the movie Forest Gump. But there is a part of me that is angered when this occurs.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Mar 22 at 2015 11:35 AM

2015-03-22T11:35:05-04:00

So I realized

Some replies here indicate either you do not understand the legal definition of "stolen valor" or Are choosing to respond using a personal standard.

What the law calls it
Stolen Valor Act of 2013 - Amends the federal criminal code to rewrite provisions relating to fraudulent claims about military service to subject to a fine, imprisonment for not more than one year, or both an individual who, with intent to obtain money, property, or other tangible benefit, fraudulently holds himself or herself out to be a recipient of:

a Congressional Medal of Honor,
a distinguished-service cross,
a Navy cross,
an Air Force cross,
a silver star,
a Purple Heart,
a Combat Infantryman's Badge,
a Combat Action Badge,
a Combat Medical Badge,
a Combat Action Ribbon,
a Combat Action Medal, or
any replacement or duplicate medal for such medal as authorized by law.

Response by PO1 John Meyer, CPC made Mar 22 at 2015 1:36 PM

2015-03-22T13:36:06-04:00

Valor is an abstract, but it can be stolen through lies and deceit. It's claiming to be someone you weren't and usually is done to falsely gain some sort of reward, which is just plain wrong.

The person stealing the valor isn't trying to claim that they're a celebrity of some sorts or that they have a doctorate degree when all they have is an associates. No, they are claiming to be those who have put their lives on the line for freedom. They are claiming to be a part of a group of people who have knowingly volunteered to do a job that puts their lives on the line.

And this is why I find stolen valor so wrong.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Mar 22 at 2015 4:39 PM

2015-03-22T16:39:05-04:00

BLARGLERARBBLERAAASTOLENVALORMAFORMINGLE!!!!!

Seriously though, Stolen Valor IS wrong. Someone should not deceive others into thinking that they have done honorable acts when the haven't. Now I will say that the way some veterans have handled it is also wrong, especially when it comes to personally attacking the individual. Asking questions and filming is one thing, harassment and getting irate with someone is another.

Response by Cpl Tou Lee Yang made Mar 23 at 2015 1:09 AM

2015-03-23T01:09:33-04:00

I've witness "stolen valor" on a few occasion. At first glance you know the individual is not in the military by the way they dress in their cammie or service uniform they just purchased at the surplus store. I'd called them by rank and they would be alarmed, until I point out their rank on their collar which they would acknowledge willingly. Indicating they were never in the military. To me, they are envious of the military because they cannot for some reason joined when they were at the eligible age due to real life events or medical condition. So I let them live their fantasy of what it feels like for the public to thank them for their service and of what life could've been have they joined the military.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 24 at 2018 8:25 PM

2018-05-24T20:25:23-04:00

So when it takes precedence over real Vets, or money, healthcare it isn't important? I wear my awards with pride, because I feel that without my troops I would not have accomplished what I did- I buried 14 of them in 4 conflicts- that scumbag wearing fake awards isn't shaming my kids, who now can't defend their action? The respect for those awards are stolen every time he wears them, everytime he gets something as a reward for his thievery, a real Vet doesn't get something- isn't that stealing? . You are saying that Valor is only important to the Valiant person? What about all those who want to model themselves after the Valiant in order to be exceptional as well. Is Valor not important to your troops, your unit- after all they share in it.