SM who have tried to commit suicide, put them out or retain and help. Does the Military owe them anything?

2014-04-29T18:19:52-04:00

I was talking to my friends, Army people of course, after the shooting here at Hood and after we have chaptered a SM who attempted suicide twice.
My opinion was how come the Army doesnt chapter a SM after the 1st attempt or send them somewhere to get assistance while during the chapter process?
Having a SM who has attempted suicide this is what i saw from a Leaders point of view. Remind you I am not a behavioral health counselor or anything of that nature.
-It pulls tons of resources from the unit. Someone to watch the SM while they are in the hospital. We had to provide an NCO 24 hours a day for 5 days. Also we had to provide a NCO escort to all of the SM appointments. Some which lasted 4-6 hours.
-It kept me, the PSG at the time, focused on nothing but that SM. I had everyone above wanting all types of answers that had me constantly on the phone or at the hospital or behavioral health.
-Also i pointed out that, if the SM doesnt care about their own life what would stop them from taking others people's lives.

Is it bad to have suicidal SM assigned to maybe some type of behavior health company? I dont know if anything like that exist in the Army

I would like to hear others opinion on should the Army keep them in the military or put them out.

Response by SGT James Elphick made Apr 29 at 2014 6:33 PM

2014-04-29T18:33:13-04:00

SM Suicides are a complicated issue and you are correct, at the unit level they draw many resources away from daily duties. However, simply discharging that soldier will almost certainly end in disaster, instead of a SM suicide it will be a Veteran suicide. It was my understanding that the Warrior Transition Battalions were put in place with this as one of their missions: supporting mentally and physically traumatized and unstable soldiers through their transition out of the military. Unfortunately I have heard they have become a place for units to send unwanted soldiers and it is now very difficult to get soldiers who actually need help in.
It might be possible to draw on civilian resources in the area if the military can't handle it but I don't see that happening. These soldiers need a good transition from service and a solid place to land when they get out or they will become another statistic.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2014 7:10 PM

2014-04-29T19:10:45-04:00

I had a friend in my BN not once but twice make the attempt to commit suicide...the second time he almost succeeded. Each time he was brought to the hospital placed in care and as much help could be given was. The day after he ETS'd he succeeded in killing himself.

As soldiers we don't leave fallen comrades whether it drains resources or not. Of course it's be much simpler to send them on their way but to what end? Some folks will see the light...others will do as they are determined to do from the start. The difference is, I know we did everything in our power to help my friend and he did it anyway. If we just cut him loose the first time, I think I'd regret it.

Response by SPC Sam Wade made Apr 29 at 2014 9:07 PM

2014-04-29T21:07:15-04:00

Whatever works

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2014 9:23 PM

2014-04-29T21:23:12-04:00

Once word got out that attempts at suicide could lead to immediate discharge, there would be two big negative effects: 1) service members would be even more reluctant than they already are to give any sign that they are contemplating suicide and 2) they would take to methods which have a greater chance of lethal outcomes (in other words, no more overdoses, and more gun in the mouth or stepping in front of a locomotive).

Given the negative potential, what is the positive? As mentioned by SGT Elphick, a veteran suicide vs. a military suicide is still a big knock (if not bigger) on the military. And shooting up a military base vs. shooting up a shopping mall is again, no big win.

The military *does* have the wherewithal to care for suicidal service members when our assets are employed correctly. In the civilian world, it is way more of a crap shoot. Let's help each other, if possible.

Response by SPC Sam Wade made Apr 29 at 2014 9:26 PM

2014-04-29T21:26:25-04:00

whatever works to keep our soldiers safe

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Apr 30 at 2014 12:05 AM

2014-04-30T00:05:06-04:00

I don't feel the military owes anything to Soldiers that attempted suicide, other than medical/physiological assistance.

If requested, the Veterans Affairs, along with many other not-for-profits, offer post-military assistance.

The biggest issue is individual ASKING for assistance...it's never easy asking for help.

The biggest issue for leaders is identifying the tendencies; which is not an easy task.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2014 7:16 AM

2014-04-30T07:16:05-04:00

I think that if a soldier attempts to commit suicide the military needs to take a look at what the possible reasons are. The reasons nowadays can be so much different then 15 years ago. We as leaders owe it to the servicemember to get them the help they deserve and need, especially if it is service related. To say that the Military does not owe it to the servicemember and we should put them out, that to me is a disservice to the individual and the military service. Now with that, there are still those who will try to buck the system for whatever reason and they should be dealt with accordingly. Leaders should be taking care of everyone in every situation.

Response by LTC Jason Strickland made Apr 30 at 2014 7:34 AM

2014-04-30T07:34:51-04:00

Service members who attempt suicide must be given appropriate mental health care immediately. It is a cry for help that should be handled by professionals. This certainly doesn't call for automatic discharge from the military. After a thorough evaluation, a determination can be made about the Soldier's future in the military, but not because of a suicide attempt.
My nonprofit, Project Sanctuary (http://www.projectsanctuary.us) helps families that are dealing with the factors that lead to potential suicide. Even though there is a suicide every 80 minutes among our veteran population and one everyday within our active duty force, of the nearly 400 families that have attended our therapeutic retreats, we've had zero suicides. Simply put, our program works!

Home - Project Sanctuary

Home page for the Project Sanctuary website

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Apr 30 at 2014 9:27 AM

2014-04-30T09:27:42-04:00

While yes, I'll agree with you SFC Thomas that these Soldiers do require a lot of time and resources, I think it is a price worth paying. Keep in mind, on average 22 Service members kill themselves each and every day. That means that over 2,000 Service Members have killed themselves already JUST THIS YEAR. Think about...2,000. That's a battalion worth of service members who saw no other way to deal with their issue other than swallowing a bullet or whatever other means they might have used. 2,000...in just 4 months. Does the Military own them anything? You bet they do. Regardless of the service member's past, they signed, were placed in the care of a unit and more important a high speed NCO and therefore the military assumed responsibility for his/her well being.

I agree that the part of what they are owed is the appropriate medical and mental help they might need. Keep in mind, for some of these service members, the military may be the only "family" they have. Chaptering them out might save you time and resources but may leave them alone.

22 a day, roughly 2,000 in just the four months of 2014. A BATTALION WORTH OF OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS-IN-ARMS. Again let that soak in. I know you aren't blind to the stats, they are everywhere. Put on PowerPoint slide after PowerPoint slide. 22 a day. The numbers hurt as well they should. 2,000 in four months. We served a long side them. Spilled our blood, sweat and tears along side them. Laughed, cried, celebrated and mourned together. While some are sadly beyond the point of help, we can not just back and say "we ain't got time for that". We owe them our time, our energy and everything else we can do to help them.

The military is full of statics. PT Scores, Weapons scores, Retention percentages, promotion stats, miles rucked. We bust our butts to improve those numbers. Why can't we bust our butts to lower the suicide rate? 22 a day...2,000 this year. Those numbers cannot be tolerated.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2014 5:18 PM

2014-04-30T17:18:42-04:00

"I will never leave a fallen comrade" pretty much sums up the appropriate response to helping suicidal SMs in my opinion. As a PL I once had an old crusty SFC with 20 years service who was SF in the early 90s. He broke his back in a training accident, fell into deep depression, self medicated with alcohol and nearly took his own life. A battle buddly helped him out and he went on to be one of our best mechanics and our Master Resiliency Trainer. We would never give up on a comdade wounded in battle and we should never give up on a Soldier who is considering suicide. If it ever got that bad for me, I would hope someone would be there to pull me back.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Sep 3 at 2014 9:39 AM

2014-09-03T09:39:31-04:00

The first thing that comes to mind in reading this is that the soldier is much more likely to receive meaningful help from someone that has a true capacity to understand him/her. Where better than the service to find that? If, after help, it is found to be better for the individual and/or the service to discharge them, then so be it. AFTER.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2014 11:30 AM

2014-09-05T11:30:04-04:00

Mental health issues are legitimate health issues just as physical health issues. Depression can be caused by a change in brain chemistry.

If someone attempts suicide, it means they don't see another way out, and they just want the pain to stop. If you're going to 1. espouse kicking them out, and 2. espouse not worrying about what happens to them, then as far as I'm concerned, you are NOT a leader, and I hope I never work for or with you.

And depression LIES to you. Robin Williams just committed suicide, and he was rich, married to someone who loved him, and had the adoration of millions of people for making us laugh.

This is one of my pet peeves, and I don't care if you're a five star general....if you don't have a heart where attempted suicides are concerned, then as far as I'm concerned, you've violated the most important part of the Soldiers' Creed: I will never leave a fallen comrade.... and I will let you know in very profane terms what I think of you.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Sep 19 at 2014 9:18 AM

2014-09-19T09:18:46-04:00

SFC Demond Thomas,

I have experienced this many times, in fact too many times. My best friend was an E-7 SFC Combat Veteran. He was assigned to NTC after combat and for a myriad of reasons failed to maintain weight. Eventually he was Chaptered out. Within 60 days he killed himself. There were many stresses, not just the ones generated by combat and the AR 600-9 issues.

A second was in Iraq. A young PFC tried to kill herself and was placed on suicide watch. Her room mate was assigned to keep her under observation at all times. A medical professional recommended she be re-deployed so treatment and care could be provided. The firing pin was removed from her weapon. Grant it, she was assigned to a FOB, but how humiliating would it be, to be assigned to combat and have your weapon rendered INOP. She took rounds from an amensty box, obtained her room mates weapon while she was sleeping, and shot and killed herself.

I have many more examples, all tragic. In my opinion, we have an obligation to try and return service members whole to society. That may mean a combination of treatment in service, treatment by the VA, and temporary benefits for persons discharged who are effected by these issues.

I do not have all the answers, but feel strongly that we have that obligation to help the ones who become broken by their service.

Thank you for posting this important question about such a devestating topic,

SFC Joseph M. Finck USA (Ret)

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Sep 19 at 2014 9:39 AM

2014-09-19T09:39:41-04:00

Having once been suicidial, and still fighting depression, I hate hearing that suicide is a cry for help. Although that was not said in the original question, it needs to be said because I have seen it in several replies. Suicide is a dark and twisted justification that things will be better without you, in most cases. Sometimes it is a way to get out of what seems to be hopeless situation.

As far as chaptering people out, we could but that would not solve our issues. America has a poor mental health care system in place. Many people feel as though they are painted into a corner, they want to say, "yes, I have self harming ideations," but know what happens afterwards does not get them the help they want and need. They know they will be thrown into a whole new situation in which they are isolated, and become more of a burden than they already felt they were. No one wants a 24 hour guard, no one wants to be excorted everwhere, no one wants pity. Depression is a beast that is easy fed, and the stress of not being able to speak freely to someone objectfully, I personally believe is what hurts people the most.

With the back log of behavioral health clinics, I believe the D.o.D should look into the possibility of allowing long term cases to us civilian doctors, this could help reduce stress on the system, and allow for greater chances of recovery. Seeing someone once a month, for something that might need a weekly visit is a problem.

A suicidial SM is not the burden you might believe they are. The systems in place have created the burden, and because the SM triggered the system the burden landed on your desk.

Response by SSG Jacob Wiley made Sep 19 at 2014 9:52 AM

2014-09-19T09:52:35-04:00

Suicide, and individual's opinions relating to the topic, is a touchy subject to some. My little brother killed himself when I was 17 years old...13 years ago. Talking about the subject doesn't bother me, so before reading my opinion - know that suicide is a subject I am all too familiar with.

We can all agree (hopefully) that suicide is a selfish act; it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. A coherent, prudent and reasonable person does not commit, or ever consider suicide. An individual with a mental issue does.

By mental issue I am not nailing one specific issue down: depression, PTSD, or just a general state of being "nuts". I mean that someone considering suicide is not firing on all 8; they aren't in their right mind. Can we agree on that?

If we can, consider this then: Do YOU want someone else next to you, specifically in combat, who is mentally unstable, who doesn't want to live? What makes you think they genuinely care about your safety then? I personally believe that is a liability and as SFC Private RallyPoint Member mentioned, keeps people's focus directly on that Soldier. It puts on blinders - which can be harmful.

Do I think people who consider suicide are "bad" people - absolutely not. They do need help. Some snap out of it and think "man, that was stupid - what was I thinking". The point is though, they still let it get that far; who's to say it won't happen again. Take an example of domestic violence: who thought he/she would let it get so far as to causing physical harm to the person they love most. It happened once though, it's bound to happen again and become easier each time.

One suicide attempt is one too many. That Soldier has become a liability to him/herself and the team as a whole. He/she is not a bad person, but that kind of risk is too high to assume in an operational environment. They need treatment and need to separate from being the weakest link and biggest risk to the unit.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 19 at 2015 3:19 PM

2015-04-19T15:19:07-04:00

Wounded Transition Units were made for injured and folks who have mental illness/injury to heal and determine future status of the soldier.

Response by SPC Margaret Higgins made Nov 9 at 2015 2:07 PM

2015-11-09T14:07:42-05:00

I believe strongly and decidedly that the Army should take care of this problem and these Soldiers.
My thinking is, that the Army had/has a great deal to do with why these Soldiers ARE suicidal.
Whatever happened-United States Army-to Fidelity, Honor, and leaving no Soldier left behind?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 9 at 2015 2:16 PM

2015-11-09T14:16:15-05:00

He should have gone to WTU.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 2:36 PM

2016-05-15T14:36:52-04:00

At the risk of NOTHING as I'm a civilian: I was in a multi SM job where a SM senior to me was trying to extricate herself from this particularly stressful job which required monthly accomplishments. Once in this job you just don't get out that easy. She then started to go to Psych counseling telling them she was gay/suicidal. At that time you were medically chaptered. Which took a lot of time from the unit NCO's as said previously. With all the appointments, JAG, finally out-processing, many missed their missions. I agree there should be a medical hold companies that can care for these SM.