SSG Kevin McCulley 19076 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>The ancient officer/enlisted tiered rank structure is based off nobles and peasants. Such a structure is inherently unamerican. It can be said this structure leads to the out of touch senior leaders and an &#39;entitled&#39; commissioned culture. Eisenhower looked into this after WWII and it was decided the education level wasn&#39;t there yet. This has changed. Such a structure also provides unnecessary duplication with OICs and NCOICs. Should we eliminate senior NCOs, and company grade ranks, insert warrant ranks between with the command track only being available after attaining E6? NOTE: This does not negate education requirements for holding senior billets.&amp;nbsp; 2013-12-11T18:43:36-05:00 SSG Kevin McCulley 19076

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>The ancient officer/enlisted tiered rank structure is based off nobles and peasants. Such a structure is inherently unamerican. It can be said this structure leads to the out of touch senior leaders and an &#39;entitled&#39; commissioned culture. Eisenhower looked into this after WWII and it was decided the education level wasn&#39;t there yet. This has changed. Such a structure also provides unnecessary duplication with OICs and NCOICs. Should we eliminate senior NCOs, and company grade ranks, insert warrant ranks between with the command track only being available after attaining E6? NOTE: This does not negate education requirements for holding senior billets.&amp;nbsp;

2013-12-11T18:43:36-05:00 2013-12-11T18:43:36-05:00 LTC Private RallyPoint Member 19124

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>What makes a good NCO does not always make a good officer.  I wouldn't mind seeing more opportunities for enlisted to enter officer producing programs, currently the slots are quite limited.

2013-12-11T20:06:07-05:00 2013-12-11T20:06:07-05:00 MAJ Samuel Weber 32002

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>The purpose is to appoint people into higher level leadership/management positions and train them to lead at a high level. This is like saying that the President should start off as a private and once he makes General then he can run for President? This is why officers are not promoted, they are re-appointed to the next higher grade. An appointment is just that, an appointment to an office or position of trust. <div><br></div><div>I understand what you are saying and I felt the same way when I was an NCO. But now being on the other side I truly see the benefit to our system. The Army is not a class system but it is a Hierarchy. The system has been proven to work for the past nearly 300 years. </div><div><br></div><div>The habits and abilities you gain as an NCO can sometimes be detrimental to being an officer. Do you really think the entire force could afford to "unlearn" habits that are engrained in them after 8-10 years in the Army? </div>

2014-01-03T16:21:39-05:00 2014-01-03T16:21:39-05:00 1SG Steven Stankovich 32007

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>&lt;p&gt;Interesting question SSG McCulley.&amp;nbsp; Let&#39;s hold off on eliminating the Senior NCO ranks for now though, I haven&#39;t been to ACAP yet.&amp;nbsp; Seriously though, I believe that the while the current rank structure is based off nobles and peasants, during that time you were born into either lane.&amp;nbsp; Today that is not the case.&amp;nbsp; As MAJ Miller points out, officer producing schools and tracks are available to all who qualify.&amp;nbsp; OICs and NCOICs fill different roles and I don&#39;t believe that by having both, we are providing &quot;unnecessary duplication.&quot;&amp;nbsp; Officers are overall responsible, Warrant Officers provide the technical advice and guidance to the Commander and NCOs carry out the Commanders intent and ensure that all are trained and prepared to accomplish the mission (those roles are&amp;nbsp;extremely simplified for the purpose of this response).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I do not necessarily agree with your point that this structure &quot;leads to the out of touch senior leaders and an &#39;entitled&#39; commissioned culture.&quot;&amp;nbsp; I believe that in this day in age, there is more than enough &quot;sense of entitlement&quot; to go around for all ranks.&amp;nbsp; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Maybe as an alternative, we increase the training and institutional schooling at all levels to incorporate a topic such as &quot;generation differences and how to bridge the gap.&quot;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;

2014-01-03T16:34:17-05:00 2014-01-03T16:34:17-05:00 PO1 Frank Sherry 54803

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Lots of good posts on both sides. I have been out of the Navy for 13 years, made E-6 while I was in, tried for officer programs but didn't make it. Anyway, I see the same type of things the SSG complains about on the outside. However, it is all about perspective. Officers in the military are just like managers on the outside, there are good ones and bad ones. Also, we have people that are basically "enlisted," they do their jobs and they are basically experts at their job, as they do it every day. I am in more of a "Warrant" position, I don't do the actual labor, and I also don't have to worry about all the financial big picture ramifications. I guess what I am saying is the outside is not much different from the military and even if there wasn't a defined rank structure, something would basically create itself out of the nature that you need managers who look at the big picture, you need technical advisers that are in between and you need the doers that are out there doing the job day in and day out.<div><br></div>

2014-02-10T11:13:44-05:00 2014-02-10T11:13:44-05:00 SSG Jim Handy 54863

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>If you want to do the Army the most good stay right where you are. Every officer in the Army is successful because of the NCO's that trained him. The worst thing that can happen to any officers career is to get stuck with a bad NCO on his first assignment. All the commissioned officers could drop dead tomorrow and the Army would survive. If the same thing happened to the NCO's there would be total chaos. The Army and our entire military is based on some very strong and proud traditions. Changing the rank structure would be throwing away all that tradition would be detrimental to the military. When I had 18 months in the Army I was promoted to E-4, made an acting sergeant at the very same ceremony, took over an Artillery Battalion FDC, and became the platoon sergeant of my platoon. I never wanted to be anything else from that point on. The true leadership in the military comes from the NCO's and that's what holds the military together. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Commissioned Officers, they just have a different function. Some of the proudest moments in my career was seeing LT.'s I had trained become successful Captains and Majors.

2014-02-10T12:48:04-05:00 2014-02-10T12:48:04-05:00 CW3 Private RallyPoint Member 54988

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>The only way this would ever be seen would be if someone were to establish their own country with its own military, designed from the ground up. Otherwise, you'll continually run into the folks who are unwilling to diverge from "the way its always been".

2014-02-10T16:33:14-05:00 2014-02-10T16:33:14-05:00 CW2 Geoff Lachance 55075

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Absolutely not!!!

2014-02-10T19:30:40-05:00 2014-02-10T19:30:40-05:00 1LT Private RallyPoint Member 55134

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I truly think its unfortunate that some Officers feel entitled. I have meet a few of them in my short time with the Army thus far and I try to distance myself from them. I think a way to rate your seniors, be it direct supervisors or someone higher up your chain of command would help help alleviate some senior leaders entitlement, Officer or Enlisted. I do not believe having an OIC and an NCOIC is duplication. Without my Platoon Sergeant I would have no time to do anything and with out me she would not be able to effectively ensure the Jr NCOs in my Platoon get mentored and the Soldiers get the best training possible. The distinction in rank, for me, has nothing to do with being saluted or anything of that nature. It has to do with the separation of responsibilities between my SFC and myself. And that duality continues all the way through the rank structure. We each need the other, with out them we would not be as good as we could be. I will say this, read Starship Troopers. It has a very interesting idea of Officership.<br>

2014-02-10T20:59:14-05:00 2014-02-10T20:59:14-05:00 LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® 56283

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I truly believe the NCO, Officer, and Warrant should be separate. Warrants have a specialty that we can use and they aren't generally put into staff positions like officers so can do their job solely.<div><br></div><div>Officers and NCOs are two separate animals. NCOs are the backbone of the military and to be the backbone, they shouldn't have to do some of the planning, tasks, admin, duties that officers do. </div><div><br></div><div>There is so much work that needs to be done and believe separating them makes the military run smoother. Also there is a culture in each sector that really helps keep our professionalism of each alive. My two cents.</div>

2014-02-12T17:03:53-05:00 2014-02-12T17:03:53-05:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 75451

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Yes, it is an antiquated system that makes no sense anymore. I have discussed this at length with my peers.

2014-03-13T18:59:51-04:00 2014-03-13T18:59:51-04:00 SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member 91309

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>SSG McCulley, <br><br>I don't think that that would be a good option. There are many military members who don't have any desire to go to college. I am one of them. I would rather learn everything on my own for free, than go pay some over educated moron to teach me to do something that is pretty easy. Especially when I can learn just about anything online in a matter of months for FREE. There is little to no return on investment for college.  <br><br>I think that the education requirements should be replaced with a test. Who cares if someone has a college degree, or X amount of credits? It has nothing to do with leadership potential/ability. I guarantee that if I had to do a O1-O2's job as a High School drop-out, I could do it without a problem. It is not hard.

2014-04-02T03:20:36-04:00 2014-04-02T03:20:36-04:00 MAJ Private RallyPoint Member 100475

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>SSG McCulley,</p><p>     Unfortunately this starts with a complete misunderstanding of what officers do and a lot of bitterness of your officers that are messed up. Do you think there is a reason that 90% of the military around the world have used this system for thousands of years? I have worked with the British, Danish, Germans, French military over 15 years in service (6 of those enlisted). While I was enlisted I will admit I didn't understand what officers truly did but I can't see a way that it would work. </p><p>     </p><p>     So you would have then of thousands of NCOs with no seniors around trying to command and control. What I would like to hear if how you would see this actually working out? How would you command and command a team, squad, company, battalion and brigade? Don't even worry about the Divisions and higher just the smaller units. When I was a young recruit I was told to not be up problems without brining up a solution and it has help.  </p>

2014-04-12T22:45:38-04:00 2014-04-12T22:45:38-04:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 293967

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I think that NCOs, WO, and officers all have their place in the Army's command structure. For the most part, officers are focused on the mission, warrant officers on the equipment, and NCOs on the Soldiers. If you changed the force structure I think you would see a decline in Soldier care and mission readiness.<br /><br />I do however, think that the pay scales need to be reevaluated for officers and senior NCOs. A CSM with 20 years makes $5,673.60 base pay. A CPT with 8 years makes $5,687.10. If he makes MAJ at 10 years that jumps all the way to $6,593.10 which is more than a CSM at 28 years. I find it hard to believe that a MAJ running a battalion S-3 is worth more to the Army than a post or division CSM with 28 years of experience.<br /><br />In my opinion pay scales should reflect the level of responsibility. A SFC platoon sergeant should earn close to the same amount as a platoon leader, a 1SG should make close to the same amount as a CPT, etc. I'm not saying that a SFC and 1LT should be the same pay, but a SFC with 8 years should at least make the same as a 1LT with 2 years and a 1SG with 14 years should make at least the same as a CPT with 4 years.

2014-10-25T18:15:04-04:00 2014-10-25T18:15:04-04:00 PFC Zanie Young 516210

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Just as long as it doesn't resemble the Battlefield ranking system. We have too many enlisted ranks. I think anyone above E-5 should at least be tested to be an officer candidate. However, we should not eliminate the SNCO and the company grade ranks because those ranks are necessary for those who could not pass the requirement to become officers (SNCOs) and those that do (company grade officers) to maintain integrity of our armed forces.

2015-03-06T16:19:43-05:00 2015-03-06T16:19:43-05:00 SrA Matthew Knight 522296

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I think it's fine the way it is. The rank structure that we currently use in the military is one of my favorite aspects of military life. The fact that when you get promoted it isn't JUST a pay raise is awesome. You can actually see when someone is promoted plus each rank of course come with new responsibilities.

2015-03-10T08:44:09-04:00 2015-03-10T08:44:09-04:00 MAJ Private RallyPoint Member 522509

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>This would destroy your senior NCO corps and your field grade officers. Any good NCO would move onto the officer track completely marginalizing our capable NCO corps. Also the retention time of senior officers would be so small that the field grade officer ranks would be of such a short duration that the teamwork skills developed as a Major/LTC would be marginalized. Or your General officers would be like 60-70 years old.

2015-03-10T11:07:21-04:00 2015-03-10T11:07:21-04:00 CAPT Kevin B. 633014

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Interesting. If you look at it, the division of officer, NCO, and junior enlisted has been treated as "brains", "backbone", and "muscle" for thousands of years. Before you knee jerk, remember each component must be grown, taught, and developed. Muscle can transform into backbone and brains. Bad brains never make good backbone or muscle.<br /><br />We'll likely have the system around for a long time because of human phyusiology There is an age sweet spot for development and performance. That's why the military wants to get "brain" and "muscle" potential early. The "backbone" must be created afterwards. As we age, it gets tougher to physically perform and then we reach an age where we can't anymore. Brains and backbone have somewhat longer shelf lives.<br /><br />People ask if I'd like to be back in and I always say NO! I had my time and I'd be a danger needing help to push my butt 50 miles in two days. I'd love to, but age, Chinese steel in the wrong spots, and general body pounding takes a toll. Wish I were a Craftsman tool sometimes.<br /><br />To have an optimal fighting force, you need the brains, backbone, and muscle in the age sweet spot clicking on all cylinders.

2015-04-30T21:32:26-04:00 2015-04-30T21:32:26-04:00 1SG Private RallyPoint Member 633052

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>At what rank would you go from enlisted to Warrant Officer. How will the Warrant rank structure be re-modeled to forE6-E9 Section Sergeant, Platoon Sergeant, 1SG, CSM/SGM. This would mean a total restructuring of the NCO-Officer system; New training structure through TRADOC; New Evaluation System; How would you distinguish between WO's filling their traditional officer role vs the WO's filling the traditional Sr. NCO roles. Would a WO1 pilot or maintenance WO1 be on the say same pay scale/grade? <br /><br />I recall being a young SSG in the 11th ACR in Germany back in early 80s and we were in the field for tactical demonstration for a group of Soviet and Eastern Block General Officers. When they got to the site, and started to be briefed by NCOs, they went into total shock that they were being briefed by NCOs and Soldiers instead of Officers. They could not believe that each Tank Commander carried a map and could communicate all the way up to the Battalion command frequency. When E3 and E4s starting briefing where they were on the map, again another heart attack on their part....Only Officers had maps and certain levels of communications in their Army. This scared the hell out of them.<br /><br />I'm thinking why would we want to change the current system...as unamerican as it may seem...what's the difference if it's Platoon WO Leader or a SFC. The positions are the backbone of the Army....no matter what rank they are called or held.<br /><br />Not knocking your thought...just considering some of the impacts and what "real" changes would it make! Still need some convincing!

2015-04-30T21:56:54-04:00 2015-04-30T21:56:54-04:00 Lt Col Jim Coe 633134

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>One remark caught my eye, "unamerican." Our current system allows any one who starts at the bottom to work their way up. Improving your lot in life through hard work is the essence of American. I'm proud to count as friend Maj Gen Jack Griffith, USAF Ret. Jack served in every enlisted and officer grade E1 to E7 and O1 to O8 (there were no E8 and E9 yet). He served 40 years. That's upward mobility. <br /><br />Other countries envy our strong NCO corps. They are what sets us apart. We should leave the enlisted ranks alone. On the officer side we might not need two grades of lieutenant or LTC at all. Not sure doing away with two grades would make much difference.

2015-04-30T22:30:00-04:00 2015-04-30T22:30:00-04:00 CW3 Kevin Storm 634457

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>With the complexity of the weapons systems and tactics needed to use them, I would highly disagree with your statement. The roles and responsibilities are different and different for a reason. While many an enlisted man has complained about the pay of JR Officers versus that of NCO's, keep in perspective the fact that each service has to compete with the civilian sector for the best and brightest. The retention of West Pointers is how much after their initial obligation? Why is that, they can do better on the outside. Same with ROTC officers. To think we can just bring them up from the ranks would not really be effective. <br /><br />Now lets take something like reading comprehension into play. Your an E-6 right now, so I am going step out on limb and make the assumption you have been to at least two NCOES schools. Have you ever sat in class and heard someone read something out load and damned if you could not understand them because they could not pronounce the words correctly, could not read, could not understand the text? How embarrassing would that be for that soon to be officer that you propose? He/She may be a great NCO, but not really good officer/warrant officer material. How long would that person last before the confidence was lost in them from their subordinates? Would that be fair to them?<br /><br />The duplication factor, lets look at that comment for a moment, while I am old and grey now, I was told a long time ago that I was only as good as the soldier I trained to replace me. I assume that still holds true today. If so would not duplication be a good thing? How quickly can a key leader be lost? How useful is a unit without the XO, 1SG, CSM, Platoon Leader/Platoon Sergeant to pick the immediate slack. <br /><br />"Such a structure is inherently un American" Lets look at some American concepts we tried that didn't work out so well. There was the whole get Irishman to fill your spot in the draft during the Civil War, that ended up in the draft riots. I believe I read that President Lincoln once wrestled someone to be a commander of a militia unit, and the State of South Carolina still publically elects their Adjacent General (in theory you could go from private to general overnight, in theory, you just won't be Fed Rec'd). While you may not like the system at least we are not buying our rank or having to swear alliance to some third world dictator.

2015-05-01T13:13:02-04:00 2015-05-01T13:13:02-04:00 SSgt Private RallyPoint Member 672440

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>It's certainly an interesting theory, but I have to disagree; the current rank structure demonstrates where we came from and is imbued with our traditions. Enlisted personnel are not basically trained to lead- even though it is encouraged- they are trained to execute orders. I'm sure you have heard the phrase "you are not paid to think" dished out to junior enlisted, and sometimes (more often in some occasions) that mentality stays with enlisted ranks throughout their careers. That mentality does not produce good commanders or good officers. I once heard someone say "E-8s and E-9s run the USMC" and he isn't entirely wrong: officers are the face of the unit and the representatives, to be sure, but ultimately the ones putting ideas into action are the senior enlisted. Those same senior enlisted might not make a good face or representative of their element. We all have our roles to play. <br /><br />"We all have our jobs to do... Sergeant Major Sixta's job is to be an @$$hole... and he excels at the position." -Sgt Patrick, Generation Kill

2015-05-16T02:54:06-04:00 2015-05-16T02:54:06-04:00 SSG Kevin McCulley 723266

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I am not alone in my views. <div class="pta-link-card answers-template-image type-default"> <div class="pta-link-card-picture"> <img src="https://d26horl2n8pviu.cloudfront.net/link_data_pictures/images/000/015/303/qrc/hires_110916-N-ZF681-487b.jpg?1443044130"> </div> <div class="pta-link-card-content"> <p class="pta-link-card-title"> <a target="blank" href="http://taskandpurpose.com/its-time-to-abolish-the-enlisted-officer-divide/">It’s Time To Abolish The Enlisted-Officer Divide</a> </p> <p class="pta-link-card-description">We need to get rid of the system of dividing officers and enlisted in order to better reflect our modern military’s capabilities and responsibilities.</p> </div> <div class="clearfix"></div> </div>

2015-06-04T16:01:06-04:00 2015-06-04T16:01:06-04:00 SSG Thomas Brousseau 723284

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>No. We are always going to need oficers as decision makers and paper pushers, NCO's as leaders and instructors and lower enlisted to get the labor done.

2015-06-04T16:08:29-04:00 2015-06-04T16:08:29-04:00 SGT Private RallyPoint Member 748513

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I have wondered this same thing myself. <br /><br />So, here's what I imagine would work. E1-E6 stays pretty much the same but bring back SP5 and SP6 - these would be Soldiers who are recognized as true specialists in their field who aren't planning to be in a leadership role. Combat arms specialties wouldn't have these slots, as being a specialist at combat arms requires you to be a leader.<br /><br />After SP6, Soldiers would HAVE to pick a track. Either 1. take a Leadership (NCO) lateral promotion to SSG, 2. Accept a Warrant (and become the true subject-matter expert), 3. Attend OCS, then upon graduation, accept a Commission.<br /><br />Those entering the Military with the intent of becoming Warrant or commissioned Officers could come in with a degree and start off at E4 (just like now). Perhaps they could even do a beefed-up ROTC program that would allow them to drill more (Evenings, Weekends, Summers, Holidays...), and earn a promotion to SP5 before Graduation (probably would be the same at the Military Academies). So they'd just have a few years left to earn SP6 - but that would still afford them some practical, real-world experience.

2015-06-15T09:34:13-04:00 2015-06-15T09:34:13-04:00 Sgt Nick Marshall 750341

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I believe the CCP did just that, and went back to traditional rankings after realizing it did not work.

2015-06-16T04:12:01-04:00 2015-06-16T04:12:01-04:00 2013-12-11T18:43:36-05:00