Should troops be required to use knee and elbow pads during weapons qualification?

2019-04-13T06:25:35-04:00

What do you think about knee and elbow pads during weapons qualification? I was brought up wearing Full Battle Rattle. I’m sure it depends on the unit leadership. Nothing frustrates me more than seeing an individual without them on getting down gingerly into the prone because they don’t want to hurt their knees! Thoughts?

Response by CW5 Jack Cardwell made Apr 13 at 2019 6:30 AM

2019-04-13T06:30:12-04:00

They are useful but I never used them until the latter part of my career. If someone is getting down "gingerly" they probably do it with or without pads.

Response by LTC Kevin B. made Apr 13 at 2019 6:31 AM

2019-04-13T06:31:17-04:00

Original title: "Knee and Elbow Pads?"

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Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Apr 13 at 2019 6:53 AM

2019-04-13T06:53:09-04:00

Train as you fight! Thank you for your service.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Apr 13 at 2019 6:55 AM

2019-04-13T06:55:03-04:00

They wouldn't be using it during combat, I say no to the use of them.

Response by Cpl Joseph Heaphy made Apr 13 at 2019 6:55 AM

2019-04-13T06:55:35-04:00

When I was in, I hated PPE. I always left my throat protector off, and my chin strap. I hated wearing earplugs, and shoulder pads. I would only put them on when higher ups were around. I was that guy.

My stance has changed since then. I feel if you’re going to wear this stuff, (Knee/elbow pads included) you should train with them. If you’re doing static/dynamic range, you need to be in full combat mode. That’s just my opinion. Train like you fight.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Apr 13 at 2019 7:16 AM

2019-04-13T07:16:20-04:00

Two trains of thought on that. One is that wearing knee and elbow pads is BEST case scenario. This is assuming that you are fully awake, geared up and prepped for an engagement. But what about if say your FOB comes under fire in the middle of the night after troops have turned in. Are you going to hear the sounds of battle, roll out of your bunk and take the time to don everything you are supposed to have or are you going to grab your weapon, your helmet and basic kit and get in the fight? Elbow and knee pads are great and all and certainly save wear and tear but reality is you are not always going to have them on or available.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 13 at 2019 7:50 AM

2019-04-13T07:50:32-04:00

PPE helps protect against injury. However, PPE is not an excuse to apply additional force to our bodies under the assumption that it will absorb all the damage (they don't).
Soldiers are responsible for their own safety just like you are responsible for their safety.
If you are frustrated that your soldiers are trying to prevent themselves from getting injured, I would suggest you rethink your position. When it really boils down to it, they have to live with any injuries (minor and cumulative) they accrue, not you. That is whether they are wearing PPE or not.
"We gave you PPE" is handwaving away the fact that this is a dangerous occupation and the fact that injuries will occur. PPE reduces them, absolutely, but does not negate them, and in many ways gives people a false sense of security escalating levels of force beyond "safe" levels.
There are two great examples of this. The first is boxers. Boxers wear gloves to protect their OWN hands. However this means they can apply significantly more force to their opponents, meaning that injuries go up (just not on their hands). The second is football players. When you turn someone into an armadillo, they feel invulnerable and we start seeing more catastrophic injuries, including the recent problems with long-term concussions studies.
All that said, PPE may be a good idea for weapons quals, but your reasoning behind it is flawed.

Response by SPC Corey Blue made Apr 13 at 2019 8:07 AM

2019-04-13T08:07:21-04:00

Sir, I believe in shooters preference. Knee and Elbow pads are great PPE, but the army issues some of the worst pads I have ever worn in my life. To some of your soldiers it may benefit, but pads do restrict a lot of movement and in my little experience they make it a bit more uncomfortable to qual in. I prefer the combat pants we are issued with the knee pad inserts, because they don’t have those rubber straps behind your leg cutting into the back of your thighs and calves. Plus I never wear elbow pads because I position myself with my weapon in a way I can maintain it and still qualify. Maybe for Team and Squad LFX/STX/FTX, but on a qual range you should be as comfortable as you can be to focus on Zero and Qualify. Kevlar, Kit, Eyepro, gloves. Pads can be optional for the shooter.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2019 8:38 AM

2019-04-13T08:38:14-04:00

I don’t think it’s necessary I was a drill Sergeant in 2012 and the trainees are no longer required to wear full battle rattle just ACH and eye pro I am also a graduate of the master marksmanship trainer course and the shooter must be comfortable in his gear and it has been proven shooter preference is best so if they want to wear a knee pad or and elbow pad that’s fine if they don’t then that’s fine also I myself don’t wear any knee or elbow pads but that’s my opinion

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Apr 13 at 2019 8:49 AM

2019-04-13T08:49:55-04:00

The only things we took to the firing line on the Known Distance range (200,300 & 500yd) were you, your rifle, your sling, magazine(s), ear protection (no eye protection) and ammo. No pads, mats or other aides etc. Some did wear shooting jackets, they were allowed.

The purpose of the KD course is to qualify and demonstrate proficiency with your primary weapon. You need to know and be able to fire from all of the positions and distances and make adjustments to your weapon (iron sites) to keep you on target.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2019 11:02 AM

2019-04-13T11:02:47-04:00

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member, for what it is worth, I personally don't see anything wrong with this, if one uses elbow pads and knee protection as part of full battle gear! If one's knees or elbows get damaged in combat, it could become a situation that compromises one's ability to perform at his or her maximum potential and could result in capture or death... So if we are voting yea or nay, I vote yea!!!

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Apr 13 at 2019 11:07 AM

2019-04-13T11:07:30-04:00

I never wear them. They are move of a pain in the A$$ than they are worth. I didn't wear them in country, on two deployments. I am not wearing them on the range. That said, although I didn't dive to the ground, I didn't gingerly go to the prone either. If I remember correctly, in basic training, when you go to the ground, you use the butt of the weapon to break your fall, and I don't recall being given pads in basic training so I never used them. They always constricted the blood flow in my legs/arms and were always sliding out of place. IMO they are more trouble than they are worth.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2019 11:41 AM

2019-04-13T11:41:27-04:00

Point-Post-Sprawl

No pads required

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Apr 13 at 2019 11:43 AM

2019-04-13T11:43:20-04:00

Knee and elbow pads, are they part of the unit TACSOP? If so they should be mandatory. Used to be in the 101st standards book, but it's a unit policy. Were they issued by CIF to your unit? Then you may direct they use them in the order/range MOI. I find it easier to qualify by being able to hold position without a rock or some pain distraction ruining my concentration. It takes no supplemental effort to be miserable.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2019 11:58 AM

2019-04-13T11:58:58-04:00

I think this is the dumbest thing. I was brought up shooting slick. Every time I've taught someone to shoot, I started them off slick. I've had a lot of success teaching people to shoot who routinely shot poor before. The first thing I would do when teaching them is remove all their body armor so they learn to be comfortable shooting and it becomes something they enjoy.
People say train as you fight, shooting while wearing every piece of available body armor neglects the crawl, walk, run training methodology. Not to mention, you don't need to wear ALL of your equipment ALL of the time. Even different units have different requirements on what to wear. The amount of PPE should be scalable to the threat. It doesn't make sense to wear DAPS shoulder protectors, elbow pads and knee pads on a 5 mile dismounted patrol.
Personally, nothing frustrates me more than seeing common sense over ruled by policy and fear of risk. More is not always better, especially with PPE. Elbow pads and knee pads restrict air flow and increase the risk for hear casualties in hot environments. Plus they reduce mobility. Wearing chest plates makes getting in the prone almost pointless. You're placing your protection away from the threat and it raises you higher off the ground, counterproductive to the purpose of getting prone.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2019 12:52 PM

2019-04-13T12:52:26-04:00

I think it depends on what the training is. If you are training for fundamentals then it should be stripped, if you are training and testing combat marksmanship ware all required gear. But that is also what I am use to, required to fire multiple different courses of fire for qualification. But I will say if I could ware knee pads at the range I wouldn't walk away every year requiring new pants without holes.

Response by SPC Casey Ashfield made Apr 13 at 2019 1:11 PM

2019-04-13T13:11:09-04:00

I hated patrolling with knee and elbow pads. They were uncomfortable and never stayed in place. Knee pads always ended up as ankle pads instead. So when everyone was pounding out the "train as you fight" mantra I never wore them to the range because I never fought while wearing them.

On occasion I did meet the Army halfway. I had used my own money to get elbow and knee inserts for the ACUs. So I would carry those with me and slip them into my uniform. If I was toward the end of the firing order it saved my knees quite a bit from kneeling on brass all over the place.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2019 1:53 AM

2019-04-14T01:53:25-04:00

I don't think they should be required, just due to the fact that you are trying to simply qualify. When soldiers go to the range they are trying to get the best score they can get. Wearing all that extra BS just gets in the way. If it was a stress shoot that is a completely different scenario.

Response by SSG Eduardo Ybarra Jr. MS Psyc made Apr 14 at 2019 11:17 PM

2019-04-14T23:17:09-04:00

Using knee and elbow pads at a qualification range is much the same as wearing a pt belt downrange, idiotic. Probably about the dumbest thing someone can think up. With so much focus on qualifying, soft skilled MOS's do not get the range time that we would. We consistently trained at the range in a crawl, walk, run phase. Crawl; be comfortable with your weapon and operate smooth. Walk; begin to add additional equipment, find your comfort zone again and set up kit configuration, operate smooth. Run; Comfort zone obtained, rehearsed and remembered, kit setup for easy transition and reload under stress, operate fast. Fast is smooth smooth is fast. There were countless time where there wasn't time to grab anything other than my LBE and weapon to return fire, no body armor, k-pot, blouse and sometimes even trousers. The theme "train as you fight" happens when one is fully comfortable and competent in their equipment and kit setup.

Response by LCDR Joshua Gillespie made Apr 15 at 2019 9:01 AM

2019-04-15T09:01:01-04:00

I HATED those awful "Michelin Man" get-ups, and honestly ditched them the first chance I got (those, and the crazy drop-leg holsters we were issued).

I was also in my 20's and stupid.

Now that I'm in my 40's, I find myself appreciating gear that's designed to save the meat-suit from injury, and extend one's capabilities. I've yet to try (and I aim to soon enough) out the integrated knee pads on the CP combat pants (I've heard mixed reviews, and I'm skeptical), but I did manage to snag a set of the Marine Corps version with the tighter neoprene inner sleeve... they seem to stay up better and have a smaller profile.

In short, yes-I think they should; train as you fight, and fight with every advantage you have. That said, the Army could probably do a better job of fielding equipment that works better across a wider range of body types, skill sets, and needs. I'll give it to the Marines-they always seem to appreciate the value of a true "uniform" appearance... it's worth more than just parade ground points.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2019 4:04 PM

2019-04-22T16:04:09-04:00

Required no. I never wore them in combat. 2 tours & didn't wear a single time outside the wire.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2019 4:08 PM

2019-04-22T16:08:01-04:00

Rifle qualifications is a simple process of making sure you can aim & hit a simple stationary target with a zeroed weapon to that soldier. You should want to be as comfortable as the soldier wants to be to do this. Not running around doing advanced stuff. Not wearing extra padding or extra pouches or anything that could interfere with shooting precisely. Leave the advanced stuff for the advanced courses which I'm told they don't exist anymore which they did when I was at basic. We ran the advanced course of movement while shooting, transitioning from probe to kneeling to standing & an engaging targets. Etc.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2019 4:10 PM

2019-04-22T16:10:06-04:00

What are elbow and knee pads?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2019 11:12 PM

2019-04-22T23:12:03-04:00

It's a train as you fight situation. You absolutely should train the same way you fight. As a Garrison MP, I qualify with a PC and the body armor I wear on duty. As a Combat MP, I qualify in full battle rattle. Now what constitutes full battle is subjective. I don't wear gloves, elbow or knee pads. That's just me. I don't like the gloves because I cant feel the trigger the way I like to. I don't like the elbow pads because I feel unstable in the prone unsupported. Now if my CO said I am going to qualify with gloves and elbow pads I would but he/she doesn't so I don't based on my personal preference. One could argue that once you get to theater, the CO could require said gear outside the wire, but I guess that's a 'risk' I'm willing to take downrange.

Response by SGT Gregory Cole made Apr 28 at 2019 1:46 AM

2019-04-28T01:46:43-04:00

As someone else mentioned, you are supposed to shoot slick. How else can you say you properly zeroed your rifle unless its all in contact with your body. The way of having people do it with armor on reduces accuracy. Buttstocks slip and slide on body armor and never really get in the same spot. Atleast zeroing without the gear on allows you to have a proper zero so you know its good.

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made May 10 at 2019 11:46 AM

2019-05-10T11:46:15-04:00

Troops should be trained under battlefield conditions. If desert warfare , then teach them how to shoot while in a sand pit. If the terrain is a swamp, then shoot from the prone position in muddy water. You get the idea, when in the heat of a firefight elbow and knee pads are not provided. Neither can you call " time out " to install any on your body.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made May 12 at 2019 11:24 AM

2019-05-12T11:24:56-04:00

When I was stationed in Korea, one of the ranges I went to really Sucked, terrain wise. If I Didn't have my pads, I would have been in a SERIOUS world of HURT. If you have them, USE THEM!!

Response by SPC Michael Gellin made May 16 at 2019 7:12 PM

2019-05-16T19:12:55-04:00

Why wouldn’t you wear knee and elbow pads. Comfort means a lot when you are in an uncomfortable place.

Response by SPC Miles Blackman made May 18 at 2019 9:20 AM

2019-05-18T09:20:23-04:00

PPE must be worn at the range at all times, that means eyes and ears, then depending on the range and the type of the terrain if knee and or elbow pads were issued then the shooter should wear them, they were issued for a reason. But EYES AND EARS ALWAYS!!!!

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made May 18 at 2019 11:31 AM

2019-05-18T11:31:25-04:00

There is a balance somewhere in between full gear and bare necessities for personal protection. This should be unit specific based on what conditions that they might most likely find themselves in the fight. Those going out to start the fight should be able to move, shoot, relocate with full gear. Those more likely to be in a defensive position not so much.
As someone suffering the after effects of not wearing the proper PPE all the time, I wish I could go back and slap myself silly.
You seem like an insightful man Captain. Huddle up with your SNCOs over a few beers after hours and bring it up. I'm sure you will get plenty of feedback.

Response by MSG Robert Conrad made May 18 at 2019 12:43 PM

2019-05-18T12:43:56-04:00

PPE has a time and a place. If the range is for learning, maybe not needed. If the range is for training to fight, dynamic shooting, its a lot more important to learn about how your individual equipment can help or hinder performance. So the answer is yes, no, and maybe.

Response by SrA James Cannon made May 19 at 2019 11:41 AM

2019-05-19T11:41:19-04:00

It might not be a bad idea to have them worn to cut back on injuries.