Should there be a way to get laterally promotion system from NCO to Officer w/o a degree

2014-10-16T15:35:24-04:00

Back in WWII with shortage of officers there were NCO's who got laterally promoted to 2LT... Do you think there should be a way for NCO's that are Great Leaders have the Capabilities to go to some sort of OCS training and commission

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Oct 16 at 2014 4:40 PM

2014-10-16T16:40:10-04:00

The way it is now, good NCOs can go to OCS or if they are NG/Reserve can go to college participate in ROTC and be commissioned. I blieve battlefield commissions are a thing of the past as MAJ Carl Ballinger alludes to.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2014 4:52 PM

2014-10-16T16:52:50-04:00

The system as it is now works just fine. With the ease of access with which Soldiers can attain higher education, if someone wants to commission as an officer, it's just a matter of taking the appropriate action. The only real major hurdle to getting a degree and getting a commission is dedicating the time for the program you want to enroll in.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Oct 17 at 2014 6:55 AM

2014-10-17T06:55:38-04:00

For the most part, officers a level of dedication and intelligence to prove they are up to the task. A degree is a good way to prove that. Atleast in most cases.

Response by HN Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2014 7:21 AM

2014-10-17T07:21:28-04:00

Yes there are many people out there with great leadership skills and capabilities but when it comes down to it, if you think of the decisions some of the officers have to make in their field they need to have a pretty good base knowledge about said subject or how can they make good decisions. Leadership isn't only being a leader making good decisions and taking care of your people. It includes a host of other things that going to College helps augment. Its best to give the people that stand out from the rest a promotion to the next rank to get them to E-7 or higher where they can do a real difference in Chains of Commands. If you keep the good leaders and ones with potential under them you can gradually replace the Not so great ones with the great ones and start streamlining Commands in terms of readiness and accountability.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2014 8:53 AM

2014-10-17T08:53:26-04:00

There are some things that you can only learn in a college setting that the average NCO would not be exposed to. At least not until senior enlisted stages.

Response by CW3 Ian Mains made Oct 17 at 2014 9:41 AM

2014-10-17T09:41:43-04:00

There is clearly no need. Standards are being clamped down for O and WO accessions across the board. I think we are clearly past the "heyday" of 6-8 years ago when all you needed even for OCS was 60 semester hours of college credit and a packet.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Oct 17 at 2014 9:43 AM

2014-10-17T09:43:09-04:00

Back several years ago, when I was assigned as an Army ROTC Instructor at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs, I had the opportunity to talk to a great many active duty service members from the various military installations in the area. Many asked me why they should sign up for the Army ROTC program (typically two years for prior service personnel versus four years for most others), rather that go to OCS. I told them that, although they could get a commission much faster in OCS, they would not have a degree and would only be able to serve as an officer for a few short years, as a degree was a requirement for promotion to Captain. While not officially a requirement for promotion to Captain at that time, a 1LT without a degree would not be competitive for promotion.

I related to them that they would be getting their degree while pursuing their commission and, if they were commissioned prior to graduation, they could serve as an LT in the Guard or Reserve while going to school. (They could also serves in the Reserve Components before getting commissioned in the Simultaneous Membership Program, and be paid SGT/E-5 pay).

Bottom line is that, now, without a degree, having a commission would be a short-term proposition as, as related by MAJ Carl Ballinger in an earlier response, having a degree is a requirement for promotion to Captain.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2014 11:39 AM

2014-10-17T11:39:58-04:00

There is a system in place in the USAR. It is called the direct appointment and you can be commissioned with as little as an associates degree, HOWEVER, the intent of the process is to fill vacant slots in the USAR with highly qualified Soldiers. Most people think it's only for medical and JAG and that is not the case.

Back in the early 2000s, there was a shortage of LTs so the selections were more aggressive, with folks as junior as E4's with an associates or bachelors degrees selected. I commissioned one of my folks who was an E7 with an AA. The majority are typically E5/E6 with a bachelor's degree. Now, we have an abundance of O1-O3 so the bar is significantly higher. I have seen E7's not selected recently. You do need a bachelor's degree by statute to be promoted to O3 but I have seen (very rare) exceptions to policy on that one. Today it wouldn't happen.

The process still exists today so my advice is if you want to become an officer, get your civilian education and as much leadership experience as you can as an enlisted Soldier to become competitive for it. Otherwise your options are OCS, ROTC or USMA.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 5:01 AM

2014-12-12T05:01:22-05:00

I believe that MAJ Ballinger has stated most all of what me or any other could share. I would offer that there are plenty of opprotunities out there for "Great Leaders" as you referred to them as, to go through a commissioning source i.e. West Point, Green to Gold, OCS. These great leaders just have to put the work in themselves, you are the best career manager of your own career.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 5:37 AM

2014-12-12T05:37:30-05:00

Only if you have a degree in MS PowerPoint....lol

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 5:40 AM

2014-12-12T05:40:18-05:00

If it would be up to me...all officers would have to be NCO first. Especialy in manover specialties

mang

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 5:52 AM

2014-12-12T05:52:58-05:00

This has been a matter of great discussion amongst many of my peers. These days the only difference between many enlisted and officers is years of service. I have peers that have anywhere from an Associate degree to a Masters and even a few working on PHD's.

If there were to be a commissioning program we believe at the senior enlisted level would be the best place for it. When your file is being considered for promotion to the senior ranks, if you are selected then you are given an option of staying enlisted or being commissioned.

This option allows us to transition some very experienced and knowledgeable leaders into the officer ranks and could be a great benefit to the Army.

Response by SPC Steve Bright made Dec 12 at 2014 11:25 AM

2014-12-12T11:25:43-05:00

dup post (see above)

Response by SPC Steve Bright made Dec 12 at 2014 11:29 AM

2014-12-12T11:29:23-05:00

The idea is that college taught critical thinking skills, math, reading, and basic history that allowed an individual to make better decisions. The current degree programs utilized some soldiers, and a few civilians, do not teach anything beyond refreshing high school education. An example is students taking 3 to 6 credit hours of math but the math being Algebra and Geometry; University is supposed to be higher education and should be Calculus, Trig, Stats etc. Additionally, students should be taught to analyze what they read - not reading the book in class or reviewing what was read but rather build upon it.
This isn't entirely the fault of the students but rather also the college for allowing to take the funds from the soldier rather than saying these are prereq. for the coursework and require more work.

Thus, even those attending these so-called degree programs (degree mills) can now become officers. In essence, the officers ranks are being dumbed down by not making the requirements more stringent in education and critical thinking. But it also explains why, at the lower levels, stupidity reigns with officers and enlisted equally.

The current system needs to be overhauled in light of the new degree mills and realigned more with the army's needs. Hell, maybe every officer should do one year as an E4 before being allowed to accept the commission.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 3:11 PM

2014-12-12T15:11:14-05:00

If you have most of your college complete, and do all of your professional NCOES school, I think a political science or military science degree should be considered being either credentialed through a military college or honorably bestowed. With no college, it isn't going to happen, and even if it did, you'd probably never make it much past O3...without a formal degree. The military has non-traditional schooling , as most colleges as well. There is no good reason one could not be chasing down a degree from the moment they come in. Online schools are plentiful and in many cases are paid for while on active duty. Online schooling is much more arduous in my opinion. You will probably get a hands down NO vote on this one. Officers are very proud of their effort and acheivements to become whom they are, and it is very coveted.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 4:15 PM

2014-12-12T16:15:48-05:00

I don't see the point. As it has been stated in other discussions the two worlds of being an Officer and a NCO are unique to another. Although a PSG could fill the role of being a PL if needed but he wouldn't have the training to move to other officer assignment that an LT would have. The notion that a good SGT would make a good LT, without any additional training, is unrealistic. We have moved on from those times to develop the system we have now. They can become an officer. I did. I was an NCO. I just had to go to college.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 4:44 PM

2014-12-12T16:44:28-05:00

I am thankful this is only a point on which to ponder.

The world at war saw a peacetime America enter the stage and soon find itself needing faster replacements than anything close to an ideal situation.

My Great Uncle Ludwig went from a PFC to a SSG and had he stayed in would have become a 2LT next...

Is that a recipe you would want leaders to be forged in? Little to no experience leading your brothers...not at all ideal and a situation to shudder at the mere thought of.

Although it would be a sunshine soldier's dream to find such a situation today, I for one, am glad we have the processes in place...lest we find ourselves with too little time to ponder and discuss such things on RP in a time with heavy debilitating losses.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Dec 12 at 2014 5:03 PM

2014-12-12T17:03:40-05:00

I think there is already a system in place, but there is always room for improvement and we need to be able to adapt to circumstances as the environment changes.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Dec 12 at 2014 5:04 PM

2014-12-12T17:04:38-05:00

Lateral promotion system from NCO to Officer w/o a Degree. BLUF: No for several reasons.
- The WWII system was a reflection of what was needed at that time. It is not needed now.
- This system would have difficulties being implemented now given today's requirements, Army size, and the basic rules of supply and demand.
- Officers currently are required to have a degree. Implementation of the above recommendation would necessarily mean waiving or changing this requirement. While possible this is not probable nor advisable in my opinion.
- I do not have numbers but I am seeing anecdotal evidence that prior enlisted officers are being selected for elimination at a high rate. Don't know if this is due to things like a DUI as a SPC or something else. Key is that we should not laterally promote an NCO to officer w/o a degree now just to eliminate them from the force 5-6 years from now.
- An officer without a degree would be at a disadvantage for promotion versus officers with a degree. Goes to above point.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 7:30 PM

2014-12-12T19:30:52-05:00

The Army still needs his technicians to train future ones. Nothing promises that a good NCO will be necessarily a good officer. The academic credentials still important in this matter. And besides, is there really a need to do so now.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 8:48 PM

2014-12-12T20:48:29-05:00

I generally prefer Officers to be taught professionally in college and with at least a Bachelor's Degree or higher...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 11:16 PM

2014-12-12T23:16:54-05:00

Officers and NCOs have different roles in the Army that require different skill sets both invalueable. Soldiers fail to realize that when looking at the finish product when an young officer first arrived to a unit so I can understand why some would fill a senior leader could also make a good officer. Prior enlisted Officers in my career have been the more well rounded Officers due to experience which has given them a slight edge in leadership initially. A degree is important its shows dedication and pursuit of a accomplishment which is a invauleable assets in the military.

I also understand that a degree doesn't make you a better leader than a person without one. I earned my degree when I joined the military E1-E4, once I becamed an NCO I actuall spent more time planning for training and other administrative work than I did studying for college.

My point is that there are officers in the military without a completion of a degree and that doesn't make them less of a Leader, just as there are weak leaders fresh out of West Point. The Army has its ways of weeding out people so whatever the requirement are the cream of the crop will rise above the rest "degree or no degree"

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2014 10:55 AM

2014-12-13T10:55:45-05:00

Yes. Leadership is not measured by your college degree. I have been in (now graduated) longer than 90% of the folk viewing this; fact is, having a college degree has nothing to do with leadership, motivation or competency.
Actually, if you look at the word NCO, it means Non Commissioned Officer. So, we already have officers w/o a degree. Also, look at Warrant Officers; no college degree.
There might be many reasons why past a certain rank you should have a college degree to move on in your career as an officer, but essentially, no real need for a BA or BS to be an O1.

Response by Sgt Michael Schmidlkofer made Jul 23 at 2015 3:47 PM

2015-07-23T15:47:08-04:00

There already is such a thing, and it's called a limited duty officer