Should there be a Smoking/Tobacco policy for and PT failures?

SPC Jeramie Hinsinger — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 23:15:31 -0500

     We have the Army Substance Abuse Program for the drug and alcohol abusers. We have the Army Weight Control Program for the over-weight. I believe there should be a mid-line between the two in which we can stop the Soldiers who are failing only their run event on the APFT and are seen to be heavy smokers.<div><br></div><div>I'm a smoker myself, so this is not crucifixion of smokers in anyway. I just see the Army failing in this area and feel there should be a regulation to help leaders control a problem. If these Soldiers are complaining that they can't breathe instead of their legs hurting during runs. Well, I feel there should be a regulation in place to help. We can tell them not to drink, why can't we tell them not to smoke?</div><div><br></div><div>Would you like to see a regulation in-place? How have you dealt with this situation in your own career? did it work?</div><div><br></div><div>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div><br></div><div>Edit follows..</div><div><br></div><div><span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px;">My main point is actually that people showing alcohol problems have ASAP, people showing problems with food have AWCP, people showing problems with anger have behavioral and mental health clinics, people showing a problem with tobacco? Nothing.</span><br></div><div><span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px;"><br></span></div><div><span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px;">I say again I AM A SMOKER, this situation also does not involve me as the failure, and I am aware of programs to help them quit, but they are not Army Regulated like the aforementioned problems.</span></div><div><br></div><div>I do like the fact that I'm seeing most people give PT advice instead of spouting regulation and paperwork. Thank you all for responding. </div>

Response by SFC James Baber made Feb 13 at 2014 11:55 PM

SFC James Baber — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 23:55:11 -0500

CPL,

I think this is a topic that will never get any real conclusion as the support goes both directions for and against. I personally quit about 2 years into my career, but never really noticed much difference in my PFT or regular PT.

I do have a funny story that shoots every study or claim that smoking will prohibit or create lower scores from being a smoker, I had a guy I was stationed with early in my career who was a pack and a 1/2 a day smoker and he had been smoking for about 7-8 years at the time I knew him, here is the odd part, he held the post record for the 2-mile run in the PFT, he ran a low 9:30 for his run, and this was in the day when some guys would run while smoking in PT during the 80s. So it is things like this guy that gives credence to smokers who say it has no effect, I have also known people that were menthol smokers that would smoke 2 cigarettes before the test because it opened their lungs up more before the run.

I wish you luck on your pursuit of the getting a regulation created or even a policy.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Feb 14 at 2014 9:54 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:54:27 -0500

Aside from my time in OSUT when I first enlisted in 1987, I smoked near a pack and a half a day for the 26 years I served and it had no effect on my running...aging and repetitive impact affected my knees that finally led to a walking profile. If an individual fails the run, it is most likely due to that individual not doing enough outside of unit pt/prt to keep themselves fit. As was stated earlier, long rund do little to affect the run times, you need to do interval training, hill runs, last-Soldier up runs etc to work on speed as well as distance.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 10:11 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:11:26 -0500

I do not smoke, have not, and will not. But I will say that I hate doing P.T. and running by a smoker and having to breathe that stanky stench of nastiness and then having to deal with it while it circulates around the lungs... Stay in your car, go to the middle of a corn field, swim to the center of a pond somewhere to smoke, but stay away from people doing P.T. It's the same with exhaust from cars that park right by run routes etc... ughh As for it helping smokers with their p.t., Yeah I have heard numerous times how they believe it helps them. If you are that good at P.T. and smoke, imagine how good you could be without it...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 10:33 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:33:17 -0500

I'm kind of confused as to what it is you are asking... Are you saying the army should come up with a program to help Soldiers who fail the run event, simply because they are smokers, which is completely their decision, as well as their own fault if they fail that event? Not to mention they could have other ailments such as, too lazy to put in personal time to improve, overweight, stress fractures or shin splints etc. Smoking can't be their only reason/excuse that they failed the run and are entitled to a certain privilege/recourse.

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Feb 14 at 2014 10:55 AM

CSM Michael Poll — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:55:08 -0500

While smoking is a bad habit, and is extreemly unhealthy, It could affect your run time. I have witnessed when was a young SPC, my squad leader coming in from his 2 mile run with the time of 11min 15sec with acigarette hanging out of his mouth. I think the bigger issue is how do we train for the run. You cant just g run and expect your time to get better, It is like lifting weights. te more you fatigue the muscle the strongeit gets. The more you sprint or accellerate faster than normal, the better your run will be.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 12:45 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 12:45:12 -0500

At Ft. Bliss there was a program to help you quit all tobacco. It was through the hospital so if you are looking for a program like that ask around at your clinic.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 12:45 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 12:45:31 -0500

The Army already offers voluntary smoking cessation via the local MTF, managed by the local branch of USAPHC.

That aside, the simple answer is special populations PRT to correct the running deficiency with focused cardio and a simple counseling telling the Soldier to seek out the smoking cessation class. If the Soldier doesn't take to the training and the professional guidance, the Soldier can go ahead and plan for a permanent change of station to Fort Couch.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 1:48 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:48:55 -0500

Self discipline is the key here. Not more regulations. I was heavy smoker back in the day and not only maxed my run, I blew it out of the water by a couple minutes because I trained my whole body and not just during pt. I quit smoking on my own when I decided to; I didn't need the CoC to babysit me and tell me to do it. The Army is not failing you; you're failing yourself.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 1:55 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:55:22 -0500

Further more CPL, as has been stated by other NCO's here, there already are programs through Army healthcare and as an NCO you should already know about them. How do you assist your Soldiers and direct them to programs to help them and their families if you don't know about them yourself?

Response by SFC Jeremy Boyd made Feb 14 at 2014 1:58 PM

SFC Jeremy Boyd — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:58:24 -0500

As many of my counterparts here have already stated, this is a matter of personal discipline and choices. If a Soldier smokes then he or she has made a personal life choice and must accept the physical consequences. I personally do not smoke, but still have no sympathy for a heavy smoker who fails an APFT run due to limited breathing capacity. No one forces a Soldier to smoke, so the choice was always their's. Cut down on the cigarettes and train for PT.

Response by SSG Richard Stevens made Feb 14 at 2014 7:06 PM

SSG Richard Stevens — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 19:06:46 -0500

they know the standards so they need to be ready for test

Response by 1SG Michael Minton made Feb 14 at 2014 7:37 PM

1SG Michael Minton — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 19:37:21 -0500

Excuse my rant, but this is BS! I smoked pack n half since a teenager and 23 years in the military. Smoking does not make you fail APFT! Never failed one in my career and i know so many other smokers that never failed. But Non-smokers are narrow minded where it has to be because they smoke! One of my 1SG would smoke prior to taking off on the run. everyone would take off, he would wait and finish his cigerette then go, and still come back in low 13s. Ive had different periods where i would run low 12s and times i would run high 15s. and it had nothing to do with smoking. there is only one thing smoking does, it takes longer to get in shape (if your out of shape) and it probrably gets you out of shape a little faster if you dont do any PT. which means they may have to work alittle harder to get in shape and cannot take long breaks from maintaining it. people that dont smoke will stay in shape a little longer before dropping down......before you just blame it on smoking, let me tell you things that factor in more then smoking!........First and foremost is being overweight (what, overweight is because of smoking too/), almost every over weight person i see also fail their APFT or at best borderline. next, take a look at the unit PT program. If your program consist of warmup, a few exercises and then run a few miles at a 8-9 min pace (which is failing). then you program is dragging people down to bordline failures. True unit PT is to maintain your fitness, but if your a high scorer, you didnt get that way through unit bad unit programs. I took over a unit that had double digit over weight and APFT failures. changed the program to challenge and incentive based and 6 months later had 100% APFT passing, Zero overweight and the unit APFT AVERAGE went from 220 to 262. All it took was enforcing a good program. not making everyone quit smoking. My only problems where i dropped in time was i got out of shape because of my job didnt allow time for daily PT or when was in units with bad programs. So before all you non-smokers look down your nose at smokers, see if there could be other factors involved. and as for as making rules for smokers or putting them out etc, the military has smoking classes and meds. but you cant make someone do something they dont want to give up that is legal. if they fail APFTs, the system will take care of them. Another point, why does the military look down on run failures, but pushup-pullup-situp failures is not big deal? Why do soldiers have to go out in the rain/snow to smoke because the unit wont make a inside smoking area? but if there is civilians working in the building, then they will make a smoking room? its supposed to be banned in all government buildings, which i disagree with. but it takes a civilian for the military to treat our soldiers right.

Response by SSG William Patton made Feb 14 at 2014 9:23 PM

SSG William Patton — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 21:23:13 -0500

I cannot deny a smoking cessation program might be warranted to help smokers quit the addiction. However, I do not think it needs to be a program started from the ground up, but instead be part of the current drug and alcohol programs. Cost becomes an issue and rather that create a new bureauracy, just use the model in existence. I was a heavy smoker during basic and AIT and I always finished in the top three in the mile run and had times of under 7 minutes and that was in combat boots and fatigue pants. Many of us smoked back then and it did not seem to impair our scores on PT tests. In fact, the smokers did as well or better than nonsmokers. I have quit smoking and do feel much better, but back then I smoked at least a pack a day and did not realize the damage being done to my respiratory system. Much more has been learned about the hazards and health risks due to smoking since then. Again, I think a program could help, but only if can be done within current framework.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 3:07 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 03:07:50 -0500

alcohol and tobacco can definitely hurt you but some of the fastest Marines I've seen scoring the max which is a 18 minute or less 3 mile run smoked a cigarette before and after the run and was hung over from the night before. It's up to you, some Marines are just beast, most need help and should stop the use of those substances.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 6:54 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 18:54:53 -0500

My point is that ALL of those things are choices.. Free will. Lack of personal resposibility and self discipline if you allow them to control your life and interfere with your ability to perform your duties. You smoke and apparently don't have a problem, good job. Now for your soldiers that do: sympathy and a program to support their excuse is not always the needed response. Hold them accountable for thems elves. Still ensure they know of the programs out there to ehlp them (smoking cessation has been at every Post I've ever been at for a long time and is even more supported now). We have too many command sponsored programs and not enough soldiers being held responsible for their actions and choices. Hold them too it and they'll shape up. Don't make empty threats to counsel and correct or, if needs be, initiate seperation paperwork. You can follow both COAs and in most cases, the troop will shape up and take action for themselves. If they don't, are they really who we want in our Army?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2014 10:27 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 10:27:01 -0500

Yea I think PT and cardio training or lack there of is the issue with smokers not being able to pass the APFT. Mostly likely a poor diet on top of the smoking. I myself don't smoke, but I have seen heavy smokers run 12:00 2 miles.

Response by SGT Frank Leonardo made Apr 7 at 2014 2:43 AM

SGT Frank Leonardo — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 02:43:21 -0400

I quit smoking due to Boot camp for 9 weeks and also 16 weeks AIT. Then got to Korea and picked up right back up dumb me but my choice. My run times in boot were in the mid 14's and AIT. got to Korea hill hell on Camp Howze. I was stationed for 1 year by the end of my 1 year I was down to mid 12's still smoking about a pack a day. Then went to Fort Riley KS and stayed in the 12's and stopped smoke after 2 years of 5 years being on Fort Riley. My runs stayed in the 12's only because I kept up with cardio on my rime in the gym or outside. Honestly the only way I see is to do cardio on your time to improve your time on a PT test just like like the other events. Getting in shape and keeping in shape are part of it also. I was 160 before boot and 172 after boot but I was in great shape just my lungs and legs were not there yet. So that took more time and lots of it. If someone wants to smoke that is their choice if they want to if they want help to stop smoking there are products out there to help 1 stop smoking. I did the patches then started again. Then stopped with e cigs and that is all I do now and my lungs have somewhat come back nut I don't run as much as I used to in Army also.

Response by CPL Kevin Janes made Jun 11 at 2014 9:28 AM

CPL Kevin Janes — Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:28:45 -0400

I used to smoke a cigarette while running... It takes heart, not regulation to an individuals smoking habits.

Response by SSG Todd Halverson made Jun 11 at 2014 2:04 PM

SSG Todd Halverson — Wed, 11 Jun 2014 14:04:21 -0400

Just like many have said before, smoking does not cause someone to fail a PT test. It is the lack of cardio training that hinders their the ability to run. Back when I first in in the 80's I would smoke at least 2 cigs before doing the run portion of the PT test and I never failed a run. Later when I reentered the Active Duty, I would smoke a cig before the PT test and never failed a run.
For those smokers who want to quit there are programs to help them quit smoking.

Response by SPC Daniel Edwards made Jun 12 at 2014 9:02 AM

SPC Daniel Edwards — Thu, 12 Jun 2014 09:02:33 -0400

The smoking needs to be directly linked to the pt failure.

I have seen smokers completely ace their pt test while non-smokers (not overweight) struggling to breathe. Then I have seen smokers fall out of a group run just after it started.

I also don't know if it is true but smokers have told me that smoking helps them manage their breathing during the run.

Me personally, I don't smoke because I see it as a waste of money. Without running on a consistent basis, my run time will suffer badly, so conditioning my body on a consistant basis will help me. Others who suck monkey balls at running should do the same. For all those that said more cardio, they are right. I ran just about every day for a month before my last pt test and I dropped a minute off my run time. It helps.

Response by SSG William Sutter made Jun 25 at 2014 8:09 PM

SSG William Sutter — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 20:09:58 -0400

Smoking is a problem, I will agree with you in the fact that it causes health problems. The Army is already considering banning smoking on installations all together anyways. That has already become a discussion in the Army Times. Smoking is not illegal and that is why we cannot stop anyone from smoking. It is a right just like drinking alcohol. If someone has a problem with drinking then, yes they are referred to ASAP. And if there is a problem with weight then there is the Army Body Composition Program. If someone fails the APFT then there is a Special Population PT Program. When you start to take away a Soldier legal given right then we start talking about destruction of morale which can lead to the destruction of good order and discipline. A Soldier must agree there is a problem and voluntarily quit. If they don't then there is a chapter in place just for that just like all the other previously listed issues. There is a smoking cessation class that can help with quitting smoking as well.

Response by SPC Maxwell McManus made Apr 22 at 2015 1:01 AM

SPC Maxwell McManus — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 01:01:27 -0400

Ah this is my all time favorite subject. The best part about it is where you say, "We can tell them not to drink, why can't we tell them not to smoke?" You are exactly right you can tell them. Yet as has been proven time and time again they can choose to ignore you and hide it better. You can tell people something all you want untill you are blue in the face. Yet they will make the choice to take what you say to heart or let it pass through without even thinking twice. That is the wonder of being a human being. Now we could sit here all day and go over articles and their punishments but that would just be arguing semantics. The bottom line of all of this is that we can't truely make anyone do anything. I would hope we learned that in prohibition. Census says, no we didn't. A regulation could help but it could also start a fire that we don't want to put out. The easier way to deal with this issue sadly is discharges. They have been doing that for years now with PT failure I'm sure it is just as viable today as it was 4 years ago.