Should the U.S. supply F-16 Fighter Aircraft to Ukraine?

MSG Lonnie Averkamp — Fri, 17 Mar 2023 15:47:24 -0400

There are all sorts of facets that the answers may take: 1. Will this give the Ukrainians the ability to protect and stabilize their nation? 2. Is there too much risk of drawing us into the escalated war? 3. Would this convince the Russians that it is getting too costly for them? 4. Would the Ukrainians be better served with Eastern-Bloc aircraft, because some instruments (like the artificial horizon) actually read the opposite of western aircraft. 5. Is there too much risk that the Ukrainians may use the aircraft to strike inside of Russia, causing an uncontrolled escalation?

...and you may find other paths to go down.

Anyway, all opinions are welcome, but I am especially interested in the expertise of aircrews, intelligence operators, and folks who are familiar with Eastern European thought.

Response by COL Randall C. made Mar 17 at 2023 3:50 PM

COL Randall C. — Fri, 17 Mar 2023 15:50:15 -0400

From a different conversation ... but applicable.

I'm with Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen on this one. They haven't trained on them and have to learn them. I'll defer to him (being an Air Force pilot) about the difficulty of learning a new airframe (sure, the overall concept of flight mechanics stay the same, but just learning where the button to do something and memorizing it is going to take a while).

Additionally, the days of air-to-air combat being 'visual' are far past regardless of what the Top Gun movies are showing. Sure, there's an occasional story here and there, but the primary means of engagement will be via radar, IFF and other technologies that could care less what you "look like".

F-16s MAY be in the future ... after the pilots that Ukraine sent to the US are trained in flight and sent back. Maybe Ukraine will send another 'class' to be taught to expand them, but these are future problems, not 'right now' problems.

According to Luke Air Force Base*, the F-16 course (called the Basic Course, or B-Course) is nine months long (assuming you're training someone who has finished basic). I can forsee the training being a bit more difficult unless the Ukrainian pilots are fluent in English or the instructors are fluent in Ukrainian.
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* https://www.luke.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/358711/train-f-16-pilots-lukes-mission/

https://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/poland-to-send-four-mig-29-jet-fighters-to-ukraine?urlhash=8183171

Train F-16 pilots – Luke’s mission

Click to find out more!

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Mar 18 at 2023 1:16 PM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sat, 18 Mar 2023 13:16:51 -0400

The real word is "Proficient". No way in a real time frame could they become proficient in this air frame to make a big difference. Same can be said for many of the ground systems. Making a system work and becoming combat proficient on that system is two different things.

Response by MSG Lonnie Averkamp made Mar 18 at 2023 11:56 PM

MSG Lonnie Averkamp — Sat, 18 Mar 2023 23:56:19 -0400

So here's another twist: A retired U.S. F-16 Pilot with 4 Distinguished Flying Crosses and 8 Air Medals, who is willing to go, if we provide the aircraft.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/a-decorated-former-us-f-16-pilot-says-he-would-fly-fighter-jets-for-ukraine-you-can-count-on-me-he-told-a-voa-interview/ar-AA18NsOK?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=9371c76f70d146df904e7141d11231de&ei=35

MSN

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 20 at 2023 12:42 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Mon, 20 Mar 2023 00:42:22 -0400

Russia will do as it pleases, that's what is scaring the crap out of NATO!. If Ukraine loses, then Bear will mess with another European nation. Then instead of supply equipment we will be supplying bodies!

Response by CPT Richard Trione made Apr 6 at 2023 10:44 AM

CPT Richard Trione — Thu, 06 Apr 2023 10:44:27 -0400

Thank you so much for sharing this with us!

Response by SSG Dennis R. made Apr 6 at 2023 12:32 PM

SSG Dennis R. — Thu, 06 Apr 2023 12:32:15 -0400

IMHO, Russia has needed a good ass-whuppin since the beginning of the Iron Curtain crap. The USSR went away in name only. The bear has not changed one little bit.

Response by PO3 Shayne Seibert made Apr 6 at 2023 5:01 PM

PO3 Shayne Seibert — Thu, 06 Apr 2023 17:01:12 -0400

I'm a Submariner, so know little about planes, other than always being fascinated by them.
I'm wondering if the reason that there have been several friendly fire incidences by Ukraine is that they are currently flying Eastern Bloc planes. Flying planes that were previously Russian. Same radar, IFF, flight parameters etc, because they were trained by and flying Russian planes.
Having Western Bloc planes COULD change that attrition rate, if they can forget how to fly like a Russian.

Response by Sgt Ron Erke made Apr 8 at 2023 7:52 AM

Sgt Ron Erke — Sat, 08 Apr 2023 07:52:24 -0400

There are hundreds of retired F-16s and F-18s sitting in an Arizona field we could sell them.

Response by PO2 Mike Lewis made Apr 19 at 2023 5:59 PM

PO2 Mike Lewis — Wed, 19 Apr 2023 17:59:57 -0400

I think that the Ukrainians have a right to protect their own homeland and as russia strikes them from long range, they should know that can happen to them too. Taking out supply lines, resources supporting the war effort and long term degradation of their military in the eyes of the world should be a impact on their thought process.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2023 10:12 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Apr 2023 22:12:45 -0400

Yes! As long we also give them pilots, and crews, and some flight control teams, and a few support companies... and a ground force.

Response by SSG Rick Miller made May 10 at 2023 4:20 PM

SSG Rick Miller — Wed, 10 May 2023 16:20:38 -0400

I think sending F-16's to Ukraine would be a waste. The Ukrainian pilots know how to fly MIGs. Training them to fly the 16s would eat valuable time. The Russians have been trying to take Ukraine for over a year. The Ukrainians need pilots in the air now, not 9 or more months from now.

Response by CPL T.A. Nelson made May 25 at 2023 5:58 AM

CPL T.A. Nelson — Thu, 25 May 2023 05:58:14 -0400

The F-16 is the the answer for air to air combat. We don't want to send our attack helicopters or any stealth technology. Ukraine will need them to finish this fight and as SGM Frazer said if we don't give them the tools to fight - we will be sending soldiers, when the Russian army starts attacking NATO countries.
On a scarier note, we have more Russian sympathizers in the military now. How many of our soilders will end up being taken down by friendly fire???

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made May 25 at 2023 7:32 AM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Thu, 25 May 2023 07:32:58 -0400

.
OH "L" YES....
And Perhaps Even Supply The Top Notch Pilots To Do What NEEDS To Be Done...
We Can't Let It Slide Or They'll Just Keep Coming,
Just As Hitler Had Planned In WW-II....
"Drop The Dime" On Them NOW, Before Only Quarters Will Do.
Or We'll ALL Pay The Price For Allowing Russia To Get Away With It.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made May 25 at 2023 10:15 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Thu, 25 May 2023 10:15:32 -0400

I know I am late to the conversation, but here is my BIG worry with pretty much everything we send - to include potentially F16s or other aircraft. I will look at this specifically as an F16, but the principle applies across the board.

What happens when the first F16 is shot down? Make no mistake, if we send F16s, they WILL be shot down. Not all, and not immediately. But it is an eventuality that should be assumed a certainty.

So, no we have our technology in a wreck on the ground. Presumably somewhere in Russian territory. Waiting for Russians to recover it. Do we then send in US Troops to recover / destroy our downed plane? How / what method of insertion? Who? How do we avoid that drawing us into direct conflict? How quickly can they get there?

Or do we send a smart missile to destroy it? There is no way that can be explained away as anything other than a direct attack.

Or do we ask the Ukrainians to send a missile and hope they get it right?

I just see no good answer to recover of destroy the downed plane before the Russians recover it.

So *if* we send F16s, we are basically giving away our technology to Russia. Which means we need to retrograde anything we send and make sure it is equipped with technology from a generation (or two!) ago (technology generation, not human generation). And if we do THAT, is it really better than what they currently have?

I have a whole lot of questions, with not a lot of answers. And I admit I know next to nothing about the F16 - or aircraft in general. But those are my concerns. And unless I am totally out in left field, based on those concerns, I would say it is a bad idea.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made May 25 at 2023 12:16 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Thu, 25 May 2023 12:16:29 -0400

I am all for it, but it won't happen over night, nor will it be the end all be all for them. I heard yesterday they are trying to get Sweden to give them some of their Griffins. Problem is there aren't that many Griffins out there.