Should the military service branches bring back the separate club system for Officers, NCOs, and Enlisted Service Members?

2016-08-16T13:27:10-04:00

RP Members and Connections most of the separate Officers, NCO, and Enlisted Clubs on most bases went away during my tenure in the service and transitioned over to Community ALL Rank Clubs.

Was this a good move or a bad move? Has the move to all ranks clubs changed the services culture?

Good or bad - your feedback is welcome

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2016 1:28 PM

2016-08-16T13:28:10-04:00

Yes. When you tell enlisted Soldiers they can't hang out with NCOs and NCO they can't hang out with officers, (and vice versa) and then you give them one place to hang out, you're going to have issues.

When I was a young troop we liked to get roudy. As a senior NCO, not so much. I just wanted to sit and have beer or 6. I no longer wanted to play drinking games or get in a braul. And when I was wearing civies, I didn't want to play "What's your rank? Do you know who I am?" I don't give a shit. I just want to drink in quiet.

Response by SSG Ed Mikus made Aug 16 at 2016 1:29 PM

2016-08-16T13:29:08-04:00

if money was no issue, i would say yes, but the fact is. many of these clubs, where they still are, are empty. Having more would be wasteful.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2016 1:39 PM

2016-08-16T13:39:53-04:00

Outside of unit functions which sometimes took place at the clubs, I could probably count on one hand the number of times I went to an NCO club. If you are in a remote area that doesn't have decent nightlife, then I can see a point to having these clubs... however if there is no shortage of off-post entertainment, I don't see a reason to have them in the first place.

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made Aug 16 at 2016 1:46 PM

2016-08-16T13:46:52-04:00

Yes they should be separated. You can not maintain any type of rank structure if you are partying after hours. You must be able to differentiate work and non-work hours.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2016 1:50 PM

2016-08-16T13:50:02-04:00

YES!

Response by SFC J Fullerton made Aug 16 at 2016 1:58 PM

2016-08-16T13:58:56-04:00

The club system pretty much died out a long time ago. Even the "all ranks clubs" fizzled. Big Joe explains why.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKDu3nd7Pr4

"There's no action" - Kelly's Heroes

Scene from the movie "Kelly's Heroes" (1970). IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt65938/ Transkript: Big Joe: ...There's no booze, there's no broads, there's n...

Response by LT Louis McKellar made Aug 16 at 2016 2:05 PM

2016-08-16T14:05:19-04:00

There probably should be separate O'Clubs, NCO Clubs, and enlisted club. During my commissioned service, I was only at a main base with an O'Club for about 4 years. I think we only had one function at an O'Club. The rest of the time I was away from bases at reserve centers.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2016 2:05 PM

2016-08-16T14:05:45-04:00

They absolutely should not be divided. This is prejudicial to those junior personnel who desire to think they are in higher positions than what they really are. We cannot let these individuals be held back from their being able to lead from the bottom when they first arrive...

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Aug 16 at 2016 2:06 PM

2016-08-16T14:06:32-04:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs, I can't speak to anything other than the Army officer club system, but from what I understand, it ultimately failed when the sales of alcohol plummeted. The sales of alcohol was the only reason some of the officers' clubs remained open and some actually flourished. However, sometime in the late seventies or eighties, the Army realized that it was "enabling" alcoholic behavior and put the brakes on the whole thing. The Army officers' clubs (for the most part) have never recovered. I'm sure some are still open for business, but I've been retired since '98, so I'm not really familiar with the current state of affairs of the Army officers' clubs specifically or the system generally.
It would take a lot money to make them work adequately again, and where that money would come from, I don't know. It's a shame, because many of the clubs that I had the chance to visit were places of beauty and most times, the food was pretty good. It was also "the" place for a dining in!
Here's a good example of a beautiful officers' club. It's Remington Hall at now closed Fort McClellan, AL. It's an architectural masterpiece, is on the National Historic Registry, but is now in gross disrepair. It's a shame, because there are 17 murals painted by German and Italian POWs while incarcerated there during WWII. Here also is a photo of one of the murals and one of the hearths in the main hall.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2016 2:09 PM

2016-08-16T14:09:25-04:00

These places are useful if you want to get drunk and be able to walk back to your barracks, so that's nice; as for the rank distinction, unless people are in uniform I don't see how it would matter.

Response by SGT William Howell made Aug 16 at 2016 2:10 PM

2016-08-16T14:10:01-04:00

From a financial standpoint there is no way that most bases can maintain 3 separate clubs. Just not enough money coming in. I would say a post commander would have a hard time justifying it.

Response by TSgt Joe C. made Aug 16 at 2016 2:13 PM

2016-08-16T14:13:15-04:00

I'd say yes COL Mikel J. Burroughs. Here at Kunsan, the Officer and Enlisted clubs are co-located, though each has their own side.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2016 2:19 PM

2016-08-16T14:19:05-04:00

They haven't completely gone. Most bases I've been to recently still have a separate Officers club.

Response by SFC John Hill made Aug 16 at 2016 2:22 PM

2016-08-16T14:22:46-04:00

My last tour in USAREUR, the clubs were open to all ranks, they needed the customers in order to stay open, and some still had to close.
Given the changing demographics within the military and 55.3%* of personnel being married, they go home to their spouses instead.

*2014 Demographics Report published by the Office of the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense, Military Community and Family Policy

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Aug 16 at 2016 2:25 PM

2016-08-16T14:25:43-04:00

In the sixties at Ft. Jackson the NCO clubs did a pretty good business. The main NCO club had a really good restaurant, bingo once a week, live bands, a TV room, a pool and game room and was usually pretty crowded. There were also two club annexes that had fast food restaurants, bars and TV and game rooms. Annex I also had a band several nights a week. There was lots of off post entertainment but in those days most were too expensive for the average soldier and most civilians hated us anyway. I spent lots of time at the main club. There was also a huge enlisted club only about a block from my barracks but it was mostly used by privates and was mostly known for drunks and fights.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Aug 16 at 2016 2:30 PM

2016-08-16T14:30:51-04:00

I have two schools of thought on this...Stateside and remote.
1.) Stateside...When the services combined the clubs, it was the downfall of the club system. Not that anyone was better than the other, but officers needed to go hang out with other officers. It was a place for junior officers to socialize with senior officers outside of the work environment and the same for NCO's. When the clubs were combine it became tough for Commanders and supervisors and SNCO's to let their hair down so to speak because their bosses or subordinates were there. the second part of the stateside is when we began deploying at the rate we are deploying now. When I am home, I want to be with my family...not the people I spend months on end with in the desert and 14 -15 hours a day at work. Deployments took a chunk out of that I believe. On top of that a lot of people live downtown and not on base as it isn't required any longer with privatized housing unless you are in a special position. Therefore, they go downtown to clubs.
2.) Remote or overseas...they need to stay separate for the first part of the previous discussion. Officers need a place to hang out with other officers and NCO's the same...especially remote and overseas tours. There usually aren't many options for downtown entertainment.

I believe combining the two was the knife in the throat that started the slow bleed of the clubs. Now, most are on life support just to stay open. By combining them you are also opening the door for fraternization when folks get loudmouth superman soup in their bodies and aren't thinking correctly.Combining the two, limiting alcohol sales, limiting hours etc is why they are a thing of the past.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Aug 16 at 2016 2:35 PM

2016-08-16T14:35:47-04:00

We never had mixed clubs while I was in. If you don't want fraternization then you should have separate clubs. Most of the time we went out in town except when overseas. The club system was easier to use and kept you from getting into a fracas with the local authorities etc.

I suspect if officers and enlisted were drinking together issues could abound. I could see some LT trying to pull rank on someone and getting his face pushed it. Normally that would have been two E3's or E5's and could have been handled quietly without ruining someone's career or compensation. Once you cross the officer line (because they feel so special and different) then you have a whole new ball game.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Aug 16 at 2016 2:57 PM

2016-08-16T14:57:44-04:00

In theory the idea of segregated clubs is good. It gives each rank striation a place where they can "blow off steam" among their peers. Unfortunately, with expanded availability of offbase resources (entertainment) and stricter limitations on alcohol combined with budgetary issues, separate clubs are not longer financially viable.

I'm sure there are some former club managers running around who can give the actual economics on it, but I doubt a "modern" club could break even unless supplemented in some way.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2016 3:03 PM

2016-08-16T15:03:23-04:00

I liked the old system as it gave soldiers a place to go with their peers where they didn't have to keep up appearances.

Regardless of rank, the correct club was always comfortable, and getting invited to a function or event at a different club was a special treat. I think my best club experience was as a young soldier getting invited by the 1SG along with everyone who scored 270 or better on the PT test to the NCO club to celebrate. Even the two officers who scored 270+ were invited, and it was an honor for all of us.

I was also invited to the NCO club once as a 1LT by one of the E6s for his promotion party to E7. Again, it was a real honor.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2016 3:34 PM

2016-08-16T15:34:01-04:00

This isn't really an answer to your question; but, having worked as an "MWR" officer, I've observed that this is primarily a funding issue. Clubs are NAF (Non-Appropriated Fund) entities--thus, they rely almost completely on the monetary support of patrons. With the emergence of so many convenient/competitively priced off-base alternatives these days, our GI's are spending their dollars elsewhere; so, running multiple clubs is not sustainable for most installations.

P.S. it's not just the clubs--golf courses are in the same boat.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Aug 16 at 2016 4:37 PM

2016-08-16T16:37:48-04:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs when I enlisted in 1974 and went through 12B Combat Engineer BCT and AIT at Fort Leonard Wood the Enlisted Man clubs [EM1, EM2, and EM3] were places we could relax, talk freely and make fools of ourselves without being observed by NCOs or commissioned officers.
Later in my military career I appreciated the officer clubs at Fort Benning, in Bamberg, Germany and in the Washington, DC area. I had been invited to NCO clubs on occasion as well.
Generally I think the club system should be segregated so that junior enlisted could freely associate especially. NCO Clubs and Officer Clubs which welcome commissioned and warrant officers should be segregated for similar reasons. I noticed over the years in Officers clubs that company grade officers tended to associate with each other in one area and field grade officers in another.
What do you think? Capt Seid Waddell CW5 Charlie Poulton CW5 Private RallyPoint Member SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" SSgt Private RallyPoint Member SSgt Robert Marx TSgt Joe C. SGT Private RallyPoint Member SGT Robert Hawks SGT Robert George SGT John " Mac " McConnell SGT Forrest Stewart SP5 Mark Kuzinski SrA Christopher Wright SPC Private RallyPoint Member SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member SGT Private RallyPoint Member

Response by PO3 David Fries made Aug 16 at 2016 6:03 PM

2016-08-16T18:03:10-04:00

I know that having Officers at the E-clubs I frequented would have changed my behavior slightly. I don't know if that in itself is a good or a bad thing.

Response by MSgt John McGowan made Aug 16 at 2016 6:21 PM

2016-08-16T18:21:07-04:00

COL. Sir I have been out so long I didn't even know this happened. I can tell everyone I wouldn't want it that way. I old go to the club when I was in and be with people about my age and rank was no issue. I could see a problem with a all ranks club. I got in a little hot water once when a higher ranked NCO want to talk about some at work. I opened my mouth and got a tad carried away. I had told him repeatedly I didn't want to talk in my condition. I got by it but never again.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Aug 16 at 2016 7:04 PM

2016-08-16T19:04:26-04:00

I would like to say no, it's a problem when people make it a problem.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Aug 16 at 2016 7:29 PM

2016-08-16T19:29:31-04:00

After My Time Colonel! I didn't have a problem with the "Animal House" (All Enlisted) at Pearl I liked the quiet of the Petty Officers Lounge after I made CTO3 (And I rather enjoyed the Dancing Girls) until that went bye bye. Only had one club at Sugar Grove, WV so it was for everybody. I only remember One Enlisted Club at Bremerton but I suspect their was a Chiefs Club and Officers Club. I can see where an everybody club at a large base is Problematic to say the least.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Aug 16 at 2016 7:57 PM

2016-08-16T19:57:32-04:00

Pretty sure this never went away in the Corps.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Aug 16 at 2016 8:43 PM

2016-08-16T20:43:05-04:00

I grew up in the old system and it worked. At the EM Club (Snake Pit), we didn't have to worry about CPO or Officer eyes around. O Clubs were great. At Newport they have (had?) two. The Datum was for the JOs and the main club for senior officers and retired (Q-Tips). It was an honor to be invited and escorted to the CPO club to witness an initiation. Overseas, the different clubs were a refuge.

But what I missed most were the Closed Messes. Open messes like the O Club had piles of families and Q Tips, were expensive, and hard to get into. Closed Messes were for residents of the BOQ only. Good food, quiet, free wine (California Vintners Association) and eating in working uniform was the norm. But like everything else, money was pulled and they had to make it on their own; and didn't.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2016 9:35 PM

2016-08-16T21:35:08-04:00

YES!!! For the love of god YES!!! When you see a female Maj give a male PFC a lap dance, there is an issue!!!

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Aug 16 at 2016 10:09 PM

2016-08-16T22:09:06-04:00

Alcohol and fraternization make a bad mix. Who came up with this idea in the first place?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2016 11:01 PM

2016-08-16T23:01:18-04:00

When I was an LT in the late 70s, the OCub at Bragg was the go to place for officers. For the single officers, the club downstairs was the hot spot to go to on the weekends. At the time, Fayetteville didn't allow alcohol sales by the drink at restaurants, so the Post clubs were one of the few places you could go to have a few drinks, so many of the civilian ladies went there.

But also, units often had Friday after work officer calls there. And you could drink, and have candid/heated discussions with more senior officers and it was understood that nothing said would carry over into the professional side of things when we went back to work. At one, we broke the overhead fan in a ballroom while playing broom hockey, and every LT tried to body check the Bde Cdr into the wall at every opportunity. At another our S3 broke his leg trying to see who could hurdle the most dining room chairs laid side by side. But again, back at work, it was as if nothing had ever happened.

But then a couple of things happened. First, those officer calls were mandatory, though not technically. So while nothing that happened at one could hurt you professionally, NOT being there at all could and would. Plus, there was without a doubt a peer pressure to drink whether you wanted to or not. So the Army started cracking down on officer calls as part of an anti drinking thing. They eliminated happy hours and commanders were encouraged to not hold social gatherings after OPDs.

Then a few years later, as the Army started to draw down and the OER system changed to a "top block" system where all officers were competing against each other for the coveted top blocks from the battalion or brigade commander, everything tightened up. It was believed that a single mistake or misstep could hurt your career chances forever. And a part of that was no one was willing to risk getting drunk or saying something candid to their senior raters, for fear that an indiscreet comment at the OClub could be the difference between a top block or two block. Everyone was walking on pins and needles.

So those two changes took most of the attractiveness of tbe Bragg OClub away. I saw it thrive in the late 70s, fade in the 80s and die in the 90s where units rarely used it except for large formal events, where no one got drunk or out of line. It became a money loser. For a while, I remember commanders telling officers it was their duty to join the club even if they didnt plan on using it, but eventually that faded away to.

I can't imagine anyone really feeling like they could let their hair down at an all ranks club. But I can see how from a fiscal perspective it would make sense. But it is a shame. Besides, without separate clubs, the SGMs daughters can't go to the OC lubs to seek out LTs, and the COLs daughters can't frequent the NCO clubs to piss off daddy. ;)

Response by COL Charles Williams made Aug 16 at 2016 11:56 PM

2016-08-16T23:56:07-04:00

No, they should not. Even if we all agreed, it would never happen. That ship has sailed. And, we are better for it.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Aug 17 at 2016 12:20 AM

2016-08-17T00:20:11-04:00

It was a TERRIBLE idea. The Chiefs had their own club, as did the Officers. At least on the Navy base we also had "All Hands" clubs, but it was really for E-6 and below. Sure I sometimes ran into my Leading Petty Officers and Work Center Supervisors, but they were there for the same reason I was, to have a few drinks and blow off some steam. I also had some great talks with a lot of Petty Officers and learned a lot. And what happened at the club stayed at the club! One night I got so drunk that a few Petty Officers I worked with had to take me back to the barracks. Come Monday morning, I asked them if I was going to get in trouble. "In trouble for what Seaman Miller? Get to work!"

But when the Chiefs and O Clubs closed and they began coming to our club, it became "Do you know who I am?/Who is your Chief?/Shipmate you've got a drinking problem!/You can't talk to me like that!!!

All hands mingling and being social has its time and place, but at the base club where alcohol is usually a factor is NOT that place!

Response by CPT Chris Loomis made Aug 17 at 2016 2:12 AM

2016-08-17T02:12:50-04:00

Separate.....

Response by TSgt Melissa Post made Aug 17 at 2016 3:32 AM

2016-08-17T03:32:31-04:00

As I get older, lol, the less I become out going and social. I am such a home body. But I think that enlisted and officer clubs should stay separate. After all we aren't supposed to fraternize with the officers as enlisted and vice versa. This would help to keep the lines clear I would think. I went to church and a civilian friend had brought a military guy friend of hers. While we were waiting for the service to start we got to talking. I thought he was kinda cute, and got the feeling that he felt mutually toward me. I found out he was military and so I said "hey me too. What do you do?" He told me he was a b-52 pilot. I said "oh so you are an officer." he replied "You aren't?" I had to tell him "Nope, I'm an E-3 (at the time)". He said a little disappointedly "oh..." and we both knew what that meant. I don't know where he is today, it never went any further because we knew it wasn't allowed.

Response by Maj John Bell made Aug 17 at 2016 4:48 AM

2016-08-17T04:48:02-04:00

I haven't been on a military base in 23 years. But when I read this I couldn't help myself. What damned idiot came up with the all ranks clubs? I'm pretty sure that Junior Marines don't want to hangout with NCO's, who don't want to hangout with SNCO's, who don't want to hangout with Junior Officers, who don't want to hang out with field grade officers, who don't want to hang out with Flag grade officers or any variation you can come up with.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2016 8:28 AM

2016-08-17T08:28:05-04:00

No one would go. The junior enlisted club would only work if it was a WiFi café. I wouldn't go to the Officer's Club as I hate the way they socialize in general.
I might have gone to the NCO club but the last one I went to acted like it was a downtown club. Not my scene.

Response by PO3 Donald Murphy made Aug 17 at 2016 9:12 AM

2016-08-17T09:12:33-04:00

Back in my day we only went when we were forced and it was free. If not, it was cheaper to go off base and - tada - you didn't have to wear your stupid uniform. And all the hose-heads who had watch would stand outside with Shore Patrol busting people for infractions like "hand holding" and having drank too much (funny comment to a sailor). My newlywed wife noticed it. "You're not yourself when we're in the club. Lets blow this joint." Never went back since.

Response by PO2 Pete Haga made Aug 17 at 2016 9:21 AM

2016-08-17T09:21:08-04:00

I always had a good time at the E club and it was kind of funny we would always have some people from the O club show up because we were having a better time at the E club not as formal as the O club.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2016 9:52 AM

2016-08-17T09:52:04-04:00

Yes

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2016 10:14 AM

2016-08-17T10:14:17-04:00

I think the separate clubs were a good idea. Sometimes you need to be able to cut loose and not worry about who might see. But, my understanding is, the clubs went away because they weren't really being used. They were just a huge drain on resources.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2016 11:03 AM

2016-08-17T11:03:02-04:00

Naw, look at the base itself. It used to be that everyone was essentially forced to live in barracks or crappy little base housing. You're already on base, you want to go drink, and there's a club right there on base (so you don't even have to act sober to get past the gate guards!). Now, look at the gate around 1600-1700. Drive around a base after dusk, what do you see? Nothing. When you replace so many young GIs with civilians, and then shrink the amount of on-base housing you end up with a very small population living near enough to the club to make it worthwhile.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Aug 17 at 2016 4:32 PM

2016-08-17T16:32:40-04:00

Have an idea, have a combined club with Enlisted, NCO, Officer and Warrant Officer "Bars" where if you want to mingle with your peers only, you have that option. There could be an "Open" area for All ranks...Just a thought

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2016 7:14 PM

2016-08-17T19:14:54-04:00

alcohol and a mix of nco's and officers and enlisted might look like team building but will evenually end up being an ass hurt

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2016 8:46 PM

2016-08-17T20:46:45-04:00

Yes.
But they canned it for money reasons. I am not sure they care what our opinion is

Response by PO2 Brian Harringgton made Aug 18 at 2016 9:15 AM

2016-08-18T09:15:50-04:00

there should be an all hands club seperating clubs using MWR or other funding matters is not good bussinesss sense period I don't think that seperationg officers ncos and others for a club operation is any better unless they themselves are footing the bill to pay for the cost of operation our MWR director was not happy that the clubs were not making money one they are boring and when the cag was not around fallon was a ghost town until cag came to town

Response by SFC Don Ward made Aug 18 at 2016 10:06 PM

2016-08-18T22:06:59-04:00

Now the clubs have basically gone away - leaving soldiers that want to drink to go off post and be at the mercy of local cops.

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made Aug 19 at 2016 6:53 AM

2016-08-19T06:53:05-04:00

Wow ! I've been gone to long. They were always separate when I was enlisted, and they should be. I don't want to see my Co's face after hours, and I don't want my officers to lose their edge and start getting comfortable hanging around the enlisted ranks. Even though now days the percentage of the average enlisted person has a college degree has risen. I still would want them separated. Besides I don't want the competition when it comes to trying to get a date with an enlisted woman and some officer interrupts my conversation by pulling rank.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Aug 23 at 2016 3:11 PM

2016-08-23T15:11:36-04:00

Hell yes, bring the separate clubs back, for us it is a right of passage, and encourage the desire to promote and socialize.

Response by PO2 Peter Klein made Aug 24 at 2016 7:34 PM

2016-08-24T19:34:18-04:00

As a young enlisted man, E3, there was no way I wanted to hang out with a bunch of E-7s aand above. Even as an PO3 and then PO2 I wanted to distance myself from my bosses. It was my time to do as I pleased and hangout with whoever I pleased.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Aug 25 at 2016 5:26 AM

2016-08-25T05:26:58-04:00

Yes they need to go back to separate clubs. NCO's like to be in their own group, nothing against officers, but after being around them all day, I was happy to and talk with my peers, and EM's get a little to squirrelly for an NCO's taste.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 5:22 PM

2016-09-13T17:22:48-04:00

With 25 years and 9 months in the Air Force (and still kicking)... and being 6-years prior enlisted as an Airmen and NCO and then CGO and now FGO... I absolutely believe there should be two separate clubs. IMHO, officers choked out the enlisted club. When I was enlisted, I actually brought ladies from off-base to the club on-base and we had a blast... very comfortable, very relaxed, very strong camaraderie. When I commissioned, the O-Club was a bit crazy too, but not the same... maybe because most of us were married - not sure. But I think having a place to blow off steam and not have to tip-toe is important. I was told at one point, the O-Club was bankrupt and so the consolidation with the much more active E-Club kept both clubs afloat... not sure if that's true, but wouldn't be surprised.

Bring back the 90s club.

Response by SA Jim Arnold made Sep 14 at 2016 3:09 AM

2016-09-14T03:09:51-04:00

No. The interaction builds respect between all.

Response by LTC Sonya Friday made Sep 14 at 2016 11:53 AM

2016-09-14T11:53:48-04:00

Concur with Damon's comment. We all need a place to be ourselves with out the fear of seniors or juniors watching your every move when your trying to relax and hang out.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Sep 17 at 2016 4:09 PM

2016-09-17T16:09:46-04:00

Sir for me, the O clubs are still there, but the Joe clubs are not. Would it be a good idea to bring it back? As much as I'd like to say yes, it won't happen. SFC Damon Moysard is right; after awhile you don't want to be in the middle of the BS. If you tell them not to hang out, they'll just go off post and do it anyways. It was a great thing the services had, but it's usefulness is gone.

Response by MSG Carlos Quinones made Sep 25 at 2016 12:30 PM

2016-09-25T12:30:12-04:00

I preferred the old time because you have more respect between enlist and NCO. Today they soldier do anything to disrespect the NCO and that the reason NCO have bad reputation between the soldier.

Response by 1SG Dennis Jones made Sep 25 at 2016 2:01 PM

2016-09-25T14:01:42-04:00

When I was on active duty 30 some years ago we had separate clubs I could understand why different ranks , different age groups. When in the National Guard I could agree with an all ranks club , smaller unit more cohesion. We all got along real good and still had respect of rank

Response by SMSgt Roy Dowdy made Sep 25 at 2016 4:05 PM

2016-09-25T16:05:17-04:00

The Club system is dead! Green Dot, DWI threat environment, and PC oppressive environment make on base socializing a major career threat.

Response by Sgt William Straub Jr. made Sep 26 at 2016 10:56 AM

2016-09-26T10:56:00-04:00

In 1970 at Reese AFB in Lubbock, there were just two clubs. The NCO club and the O' Club. All enlisted were allowed at the NCO Club. In Thailand we had squadron bars, and I remember an Airmen's club. When I got to Germany, Kelly Barracks, part of an Air Force attachment on US Army installation, there was an EM Club, NCO Club, and I think an O' Club. As a 3 stripe Sgt in the Air Force, we were considered NCO's so we used both the EM and NCO club. Caused some friction between Army NCO's and us 3 stripe Sgts' in the Air Force. I don't have an issue mixing EM an NCO. But I do think the Officers need to be separate. If you have a young Gold bar and a young 21 year old enlisted man popping a few and getting a little unsteady, you may have problems.

I think above all, you need a coherent method to control and counsel young troops on alcohol use.

Response by SSgt Stephanie Luck made Sep 26 at 2016 11:02 AM

2016-09-26T11:02:28-04:00

If I answered this question a year ago while I was still active duty, my answer would have been... Hell yeah! But to my surprise, my perspective has changed as a veteran. Amazing huh?! Well, now after surrounding myself and searching for like being who served in the military.... There is no segregation as a veteran and it's most peaceful. Being part of veterans organizations have really opened my eyes to equalty.

Response by LT Louis McKellar made Sep 26 at 2016 1:29 PM

2016-09-26T13:29:07-04:00

When I was a SSgt, I went into an officer's latrine on a RAF base to see what the difference was. There were splash guards in front of the urinals, so I assumed officers peed on their shoes!

Having served as an Airman, NCO, and officer, and participated in all three separate clubs, I believe we need the separation of ranks in different clubs. Officers and NCOs should never be seen "one of the guys" to junior enlisted.

I'm reminded of a letter attributed to John Paul Jones - "It is by no means enough that an officer of the Navy should be a capable mariner. He must be that, of course, but also a great deal more. He should be as well a gentleman of liberal education, refined manners, punctilious courtesy, and the nicest sense of personal honor.

He should be the soul of tact, patience, justice, firmness, kindness, and charity. No meritorious act of a subordinate should escape his attention or be left to pass without its reward, even if the reward is only a word of approval.

Conversely, he should not be blind to a single fault in any subordinate, though at the same time, he should be quick and unfailing to distinguish error from malice, thoughtlessness from incompetency, and well meant shortcomings from heedless or stupid blunder. In one word, every commander should keep constantly before him the great truth, that to be well obeyed, he must be perfectly esteemed."

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Sep 26 at 2016 3:26 PM

2016-09-26T15:26:54-04:00

Honestly yes, for the simple reason of bonding among your peers. I'm an NCO. I am of drinking age. Yes I do drink occasionally. But if I am out with people of my peer group, I shouldn't be worried if someone above me or below me will see me make a fool of myself. I should be able to trust my fellow peers to get me home safely and without incident.

The same can be said with any of the other rank groups. SNCOs aren't going to drink in front of their Officer bosses and they don't want to set a bad example for their NCOs and Junior troops. Officers aren't going to socialize around the enlisted because of fraternization and trying to maintain a professional atmosphere.

Sure we can all sit together and enjoy a meal, but when rank is involved, we'll be a bit more rigid for appearances sake. So I totally think it's a bad move to put all ranks in the same social environment. At least when we're among our peers, we can actually socialize instead of just keeping up appearances.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Nov 20 at 2016 6:34 PM

2016-11-20T18:34:37-05:00

Good compromise is have certain clubs that are more like " All Ranks Bar and Grills" during working hours. After 1700 When Alcohol is served they become E Clubs, That would be the vast Majority of clubs. They could have smaller areas with separate entrances that were NCOs.
The Vast Majority of Sr NCOs and officers do not patronize on base, but there should be a centralized SNCO club and a Officer club on base for unit functions.

Response by SFC George Smith made Nov 20 at 2016 7:08 PM

2016-11-20T19:08:54-05:00

interesting did not they were merged...

Response by PO1 John Johnson made Nov 23 at 2016 7:56 AM

2016-11-23T07:56:13-05:00

In the Coast Guard (at least '79-'99), we never had to answer this question. We only had 1 club on Base, if we were lucky. Being as there were only 35,000 of us, we all knew each other (figuratively speaking) and our ranks/specialties. O's & E's worked hard and played harder, together, with little to no problems. That was worth it's weight in gold.

Response by SFC William Stephens made Nov 23 at 2016 9:31 AM

2016-11-23T09:31:06-05:00

yes, because the offices still have organization with their branch and so do senior NCOs. Would you like me to start listing them.

Bring back them back: builds esprit to corps and followship

Response by LCpl Jaime N. made Nov 23 at 2016 9:44 AM

2016-11-23T09:44:08-05:00

Yes, because drinking with Officers always ends up with the enlisted babysitting and trying to avoid an international incident. lol Stateside, i think having a divided building would be fine.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2016 6:27 PM

2016-11-26T18:27:20-05:00

In my opinion the Enlisted, NCO and Officers club should be kept separate. .It's a conflict of boundaries and interferes with the Chain of Command. There has to be a level of respect of leadership.

Response by MSG Carlos Quinones made Nov 26 at 2016 8:11 PM

2016-11-26T20:11:46-05:00

Yes because they need to go back to basic principal and respect the rank

Response by PO2 Jerri Jackson made Nov 28 at 2016 8:17 PM

2016-11-28T20:17:15-05:00

Does any one even use them as clubs like we did, back in the days, lol, late 70s n early 80s? All I see then used for now is chow. At least on my Navy base, where I work.

Response by LT Michael Watson made Nov 28 at 2016 10:33 PM

2016-11-28T22:33:18-05:00

Yes, the culture changed, and the lines blurred. As a Navy Ensign, it was an honor to be invited into the Chief's Club and into the Fleet Reserve. We knew we were guests of our Chief, and behaved as such.

Response by SSG G Smith made Nov 28 at 2016 10:54 PM

2016-11-28T22:54:05-05:00

I personally have always seen the clubs whether all ranks or segregated have been a waste especially stateside. To me it really only was a place to go for something important but not to just hang out and socialize. I am of the mentality of when I'm done work I'm done work. The last thing I want to do is hang out with more soldiers regardless of rank. I chose to find a nice place off post to frequent. Yes sometimes you had a "special" individual from a broad range of ranks think it held true there but for the most part everyone I knew to be in the military didn't go there to socialize and be a rank but rather a name.

Overseas is a little different where safety is concerned or options limited but I think there are arguments in that situation for the correctness of both.

Just my $.02

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2016 2:17 AM

2016-12-01T02:17:10-05:00

The Marine Corps still uses this system. I was unaware that the other braches didn't do this.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2016 5:54 PM

2016-12-22T17:54:58-05:00

In an austere environment, overseas or perhaps like the NTC, I think separate clubs is a good thing. But at large bases near populated areas like Ft Hood, I don't see the point. Much of what happens seems to be unit parties (all ranks) or special events like Super Bowl watching. Any officer or NCO who can't keep from getting stupid in front of subordinates should probably turn in his bars/stripes.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Dec 22 at 2016 6:48 PM

2016-12-22T18:48:00-05:00

I think that the NCO should have their Own Club and the E1-E4 should have there own and officers should too. So yes it was a Mistake.

SSG MARK FRANZEN
USA VET

Response by MAJ Dick Farnsworth made Dec 28 at 2016 1:00 PM

2016-12-28T13:00:32-05:00

I'd like to suggest that time to relax with one's peers is lost if it is with mixed ranks. Junior enlisted can get drunk and not have to worry that one of their officers--or senior NCOs--will be in the area and they will have to worry about a reduced judgement slip. If the suggestion is as simple as separate areas for each of the rank groups, it will accomplish the same objective, being able to relax with one's peers. Smaller bases will be able to take advantage of that concept.

Response by SGT Aaron Atwood made Dec 29 at 2016 12:31 PM

2016-12-29T12:31:20-05:00

I always saw clubs as a place where personnel of a particular set of ranks would go hang out. Officers at officer clubs, NCOs at NCO clubs (anyone out there know if the one in 29 is still there? When I was there I was told it was the last one in the Corps.), SNCO clubs, etc. I do agree also that clubs have outlived their usefulness depending on base location.

Response by SGT Pat Quinlan made Jan 12 at 2017 12:11 PM

2017-01-12T12:11:58-05:00

They should go back to the old way. I sure as hell wouldn't to drink next to an officer. And I am sure they didn't want to drink with me. It is all about your place and not about everyone being equal.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2017 12:12 PM

2017-01-12T12:12:20-05:00

I only retired from the Navy in Jan 2014 but every Marine Corps and Navy Club I went to was still segregated by rank. Officers had their place, E club was for all ranks but there was a "Chief's Mess" or SNCO are we could escape to.

Response by LTC Orlando Illi made Jan 12 at 2017 12:16 PM

2017-01-12T12:16:34-05:00

Is there a question here? I never understood why they stopped in the first place.

Response by SSG Scott Thelen made Jan 12 at 2017 12:48 PM

2017-01-12T12:48:26-05:00

I have fond memories of the NCO club. There was a sense of belonging and freedom there to talk with other NCOs without the worry of junior enlisted or officers overhearing and getting offended. I remember many "NCO business" issues being handled there.

Response by GySgt Melissa Gravila made Jan 12 at 2017 1:39 PM

2017-01-12T13:39:42-05:00

IMO it needs to go back to being seperated- either that or do away with fraternazation regs (which aren't going anywhere). All in one club, nobody is put at ease, nobody relaxes, then everybody goes out in town to party, the clubs on base suffer financially and eventually close. Lose/lose

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jan 12 at 2017 2:20 PM

2017-01-12T14:20:46-05:00

I don't think it is smart- the old way, you were among your peers and mentors. You could talk freely off the book, ask questions, etc., all without the party being talked about present, and without the troop grapevine, getting ahold of it and spreading it around. It also gave you the chance to live down sometime anal w/o the troops or superiors seeing it.

Response by SSgt Clare May made Jan 12 at 2017 2:26 PM

2017-01-12T14:26:08-05:00

Bring it back.. Costs more, but it permits the different classes to avoid confrontational issues that happen in a club environment... I recall being an Airman... going to the Airman's club at Kirtland. Then at Castle going to the Airman's club as a non com... only because they had better live music. Well that and they had out these little test kits to judge your alcohol content... lol... and making it hit .24. Since it was next to the barracks... it always made it fun and a challenge to get to the room.. and the bartender was easily influenced...lol... another round wasn't a problem as long as you could still sit in the chair... but I must regress...it was a different time...and a different day. 3 on, 24hours off, 3 graveyards...3 off... first day turned into the second real quick...and guarding nukes was boring as...well you get the idea...

Response by 1LT Aaron Barr made Jan 12 at 2017 2:40 PM

2017-01-12T14:40:24-05:00

I wasn't aware that they went away from that. The closest I ever saw to a mixed environment was at Camp Stanley in Korea where we had a general club for everybody and a Senior Leaders Club (known as the slick) for senior NCOs, warrants and commissioned officers. Can't remember what the cut-off for the SLC was, I think E-6.

In any case, mixed clubs are a bad idea, at least in my opinion. I cannot help but think that my presence at a club frequented mainly by junior enlisted would cramp their fun and though it would make me behave better, the same isn't the case for all officers. Long story short, familiarity breeds contempt.

Response by SGT James Colwell made Jan 12 at 2017 3:15 PM

2017-01-12T15:15:22-05:00

I have not experienced the all inclusive clubs. I would think it would encourage fraternization. Is that still a thing in the military?

Response by SSgt Boyd Welch made Jan 12 at 2017 3:36 PM

2017-01-12T15:36:16-05:00

I think that each category should have their own arrangement for association. Hard to unwind when your admin officer sits at the bar watching you and buds cutting loose and de-stressing. No such thing as a true "Neutral Zone". Now if you are going to share a brew, I used to like it when Col. Locht used to stop by the barracks at Christmas with a case of beer and some Crown just to share a few with the guys who couldn't go home for Christmas. His wife always cooked up snacks. He always put us all at ease..other than that...keep it separate.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Jan 12 at 2017 4:02 PM

2017-01-12T16:02:17-05:00

I did a tour of I&I duty (active duty cadre at a reserve unit) at Stewart Air National Guard Base with a reserve C-130 and support squadron. About 100 active and 200 drilling reservists. Air Force had a similar setup but very few single SMs living on post.
We had 1 Marine barracks, a few old run down transient buildings, a 7 day store and the Army MWR ran 2 clubs (Officer and Enlisted) and an Inn out of West Point. About halfway through my tour MWR pulled out and we took over the smaller club by the barracks. I ran it as a "collateral duty".
If you've ever heard the expression "too much fun" I can tell you it is possible. With there only being a handful of us 28 days per month, and then 1 drill weekend per month, it was a blast. I think I shaved 3-4 years off my life span. Good times, good people.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Jan 12 at 2017 5:33 PM

2017-01-12T17:33:23-05:00

When I was in we had the NCO, Airmen and Officer clubs. I didn't know they went away. Reads like a politically correct pantywaist decision by some civilian who may had been a member at one time of one of the military services and they were disatisfied and got in the position to break it up. just a supposition that might of happened. I enjoyed going on deploys to different bases and in the local area presenting my NCO club card.. having the time to be with others that were in the middle and senior NCO group.

Response by MAJ David Vermillion made Jan 12 at 2017 5:39 PM

2017-01-12T17:39:23-05:00

Drinking with the boys and then trying to lead, very difficult IMHO.

Response by SFC Domingo M. made Jan 14 at 2017 2:44 PM

2017-01-14T14:44:08-05:00

In my opinion, at a minimum, the Officers and Enlisted should be separate. I used to very frequently support our NCO Clubs and during my time we always had lower Enlisted Clubs as well.

That separation needs to be maintained unless it is a unit function where officers and Non-Commissioned Officers know that there are certain standards which must be upheld.

Both Officers and Non-Commissioned Officers need a place where they can lower their guard and relax while enjoying a few beverages.

In the Old Army, we used to work hard and party hard as well.

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made Jan 14 at 2017 5:20 PM

2017-01-14T17:20:29-05:00

They say you can never go back, and I'm afraid that may be the case with our once proud club system. When the clubs were operated for the service member they were GREAT! The E-Club you went to after work for happy hour, few drinks, shot some pool, bitched about the boss. At the weekends there was live music, dancing, chicks, a good time. The SNCO Club, a quiet plce to have a drink, bitch about the troops, take the wife for a meal, occassional live music, good times. The O-Club??? Who knows, but I imagine it was a place where Officers gathered to drink martini's and discuss the finer points of military philosophy. What went wrong?? It started when I saw on the billboard of the New River E-Club, "Family Bingo Night", the clubs that I remember are never coming back. Seperate clubs are a good I idea, but some where along the line the purpose of the club was lost.

Response by SSgt Dwight Deatherage made Jan 18 at 2017 10:08 AM

2017-01-18T10:08:42-05:00

While it sounds like a good idea at the outset, the bottom line is on some installations there are not enough military personnel to keep the doors open for one club. At my last assignment (Fort Monmouth closed 2011) there were 90% DACs and contractors, the MWR had to close the NCO club in order to keep the O-Club functioning. Only then with outside functions every weekend could they make it

My current assignment at Aberdeen Proving Ground is a similar set-up. There are five Commands and barely enough military to keep one club afloat.

Response by SSgt Dwight Deatherage made Jan 18 at 2017 10:19 AM

2017-01-18T10:19:47-05:00

This action was a slap in the face to every military person serving, or ever served, as we took an oath of office.

PFC Bradley Manning is a little weasel. The 35 year sentence was in itself a gift.

The Hollywood lefties are already planning a movie that shows it is not his right that he is a traitor and confused about his place in life.

Response by SSgt Dwight Deatherage made Jan 18 at 2017 10:26 AM

2017-01-18T10:26:31-05:00

If it was the status quo, I might feel safer. If this is the first time I noticed this, I would try to get out from in between them and the front door.

Response by SFC Cesar Valdez Jr made Jan 18 at 2017 12:43 PM

2017-01-18T12:43:10-05:00

Back in the day, I enjoyed the fact that I had a place that I could hang out with my peers without the presence of personnel above me. I had a 12 year break in service and due to the huge age difference (had to go through Basic and AIT all over) I was not comfortable at EM clubs. Once I became an NCO the second time around, I was able to find some common ground with Senior NCO's that were closer to my age. I only attended a Community Club once and it was a ghost town, none of the ranks participated since we could find our own outside the installation.

Response by COL John Power made Jan 19 at 2017 7:22 PM

2017-01-19T19:22:32-05:00

I would love for the old club system to return. It was a valuable resource when I was a young officer and commander. But the social and financial realities of today won't let that happen. The community all ranks clubs are bad substitutes. They are not clubs; just facilities. Back in the day it was different. I would argue better. At some officers' clubs there were golf courses, swimming pools, tennis courts - much like a private golf club. We paid extra for the amenities, but the facilities were good, the food was good and well priced, and the atmosphere was excellent. The clubs tended to suit the needs of the community they served. As an officer I was always in a community I felt welcoming and would NEVER venture into an NCO or Enlisted club. We had our space and that was great. At the club we were almost equal; rank was understood but never emphasized As someone mentioned, we could argue policy and big issues and offer ideas to those far senior without recourse. Rarely did anyone act stupid. If I was to be in an NCO club or Enlisted Club they attendees would be uncomfortable and so would I. Particularly in overseas settings, they need their own places to unwind. We all do. Even in cities and towns in the US, the military community is different. We just aren't like civilians. It is sad that some of the old traditions have died. It is usually economic and that economic change comes from societal change. Thirty or forty years ago most members of the military were not married and the clubs became their homes. times have changed and the troops just go home. so the clubs can't make enough to stay open.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jan 19 at 2017 11:45 PM

2017-01-19T23:45:55-05:00

Response by SGT Philip Klein made Jan 24 at 2017 7:40 AM

2017-01-24T07:40:22-05:00

I had better things to do than hang out on post, so never really noticed.

Response by PFC Francis Ramseyer made Jan 24 at 2017 8:32 AM

2017-01-24T08:32:48-05:00

It was, in my opinion, a bad move. Not talking about services culture, I believe in a separation between Officers, NCO and Enlisted men. Topics of discussions are different.

Response by MSgt Don Dobbs made Jan 24 at 2017 11:29 AM

2017-01-24T11:29:13-05:00

Clubs should be separate. The proudest day of my career was when I became an NCO I could join and use the NCO club. Later when I could use the top 3 lounge. I was a DJ when stationed in Turkey and played the E-club and the O-club both were two entirely different clubs with an entirely different atmosphere. We had an E-club with a top 3 lounge and a separate O-club. The club system stinks with an ALL RANK club. It is not conducive to a proper Military atmosphere. The E-club is a poor idea because it mixes lower grade with their NCO leadership. Even in civilian life the worker bees don't go out drinking with the executives nor do they mix with the CEO and VP's.

Response by CPO Paul Niehaus made Jan 24 at 2017 12:25 PM

2017-01-24T12:25:03-05:00

Yes they should have a separate spaces to relax.

Response by PFC Aaron Cox made Jan 25 at 2017 10:34 PM

2017-01-25T22:34:49-05:00

We all need a place to let our hair down. In some cases ego can interfere with a good time. It is hard to have fun when someone hits you with RHIP when you try to get a seat at the bar or hit on that cute chick.

Response by LTC John Paul Cook made Jan 26 at 2017 7:58 PM

2017-01-26T19:58:36-05:00

While I was with ASA (M&RA) Training Readiness and Mobilization we actually discussed the adverse impact the reduced frequency of "Officer/NCO Calls" was having on leader development. In short, an informal counseling session over a beer sure did take the edge off things. Similarly, a toast to recognize accomplishments was a great "impact award".

More importantly though is the glimpse into peoples true nature that comes out in a bar. Loud/obnoxious drunks often turn out to be toxic leaders, and those who harass the bar staff are likely to be inappropriate with subordinates. Clearly those who insisted on driving while impaired were likely to make other poor decisions.

Something to think about ...

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Jan 30 at 2017 4:01 PM

2017-01-30T16:01:32-05:00

Sp4 Byron Skinner Yes and also reestablish the Service Clubs, managed by civilian DoD personal. The on base clubs give commanders some control over the issue of alcohol consumption. The Three tiered club system was good. It let Enlisted which are generally young and prone to over doing it to have a monitored and controlled environment to let lose, a bit. For NCO's and officers, its an after work come down or an inexpensive night out with a girlfriend/boyfriend with out spending a lot of money. The service clubs use to be an away from the barracks place to shoot a game of pool, read magazines and grouse the library or to meet family in a welcoming environment where you don't have to spend money and just sit and visit.

Response by SPC Melanie Vancegonzalez made Feb 2 at 2017 2:15 AM

2017-02-02T02:15:06-05:00

It's going to be awkward when an NCO or Officer is out drinking all night with enlisted and then has to write up a report on said enlisted when they are drunk in formation in the morning.

Response by CPT Chad Copeland made Feb 8 at 2017 9:32 AM

2017-02-08T09:32:38-05:00

I loved the esprit de corps overseas when we had our own unit based clubs and could watch each others backs. In today's environment of zero tolerance, issues with sexual harassment, fraternization, DUI career crusher, and the expense of operations in a show string military budget world...I think those days have passed CONUS. I wish I could have had a few beers with my troops...risk assessment in any official capacity was always too high and frowned upon by higher...social media and the evolution of society has made it very hard to do anything that may be judged "inappropriate" and make a black mark on your reputation...the inner circle has to stay tight and out of sight now to keep the Warrior Code alive.

Response by MSgt Kerry Lundy made Feb 9 at 2017 12:01 PM

2017-02-09T12:01:52-05:00

Once I quit consuming alcohol I stopped patronizing the clubs. This was about my last 10 years of service. If you don't want enlisted hanging out officers and you don't want junior enlisted hanging out with their supervisors,squad leaders,etc but you say it is ok to patronize the clubs together. I have to question the wisdom of this.

Response by SMSgt Timothy Cathers made Feb 9 at 2017 5:06 PM

2017-02-09T17:06:46-05:00

Yes

Response by SFC David Davenport made Feb 14 at 2017 12:05 PM

2017-02-14T12:05:28-05:00

There is no simple solution to this issue. The existing clubs were not making money. As a last ditch effort to have somewhere for Soldiers on post to go socialize and have a drink the all ranks clubs were created. While many questioned the choice a better solution was not available at the time. The all ranks club is looked at as a way to blow off steam and avoid DUIs.

I miss the old club system and agree with many of the others that have posted found memories. Our on post culture has changed though and the old system is not financially viable these days. Thankfully almost every base I have gone to has a quiet bar you can sit down in with peace, quiet and a cold one.

Response by PVT Mark Brown made Feb 14 at 2017 4:36 PM

2017-02-14T16:36:08-05:00

I feel that the three separate club system should, by all means, be reinstated. I was at a couple camp while overseas during the sixties that there were not enough men to even have more than one club. At one place, Sea Range, South Korea, I was the manager of the club which was single club for all three. We didn't have enough people there to support even separation of EM and O clubs.

Response by SMSgt Roger Horton made Feb 14 at 2017 5:19 PM

2017-02-14T17:19:54-05:00

I think they should. Enlisted ranks want to be their peers as I believe SNCOs do. I have seen Senior SNCOs and Officers share a club on smaller bases.

Response by Lt Col David George made Feb 14 at 2017 5:38 PM

2017-02-14T17:38:18-05:00

Yes. These clubs were consolidated to save money and the move destroyed morale, camaraderie, and privacy that made the "old system" preferred by all.

Response by PO1 Bill O made Feb 14 at 2017 7:42 PM

2017-02-14T19:42:19-05:00

You definitely knew where you stood and the discipline was better enforced when out side the command incidents were concerned! Cpo's O's and enlisted folks were segregated for a reason, even when getting drunk.

Response by PFC Eric Bast made Feb 26 at 2017 10:51 PM

2017-02-26T22:51:27-05:00

If you can't trust a guy to have a beer with you how can you trust they will have your back

Response by MSgt Frank Martin made Mar 7 at 2017 6:27 AM

2017-03-07T06:27:17-05:00

At my first base.. despite being in San Antonio TX.. the NCO Club and the Officers Club were busy places at Brooks AFB. Meal Service was second to none. Friday nights they had a full meal service that beat many off base establishments. Then the bars themselves almost always had a crowd and events. In fact our NCO Club would draw enlisted folks from Lackland and Kelly AFB on Friday nights because we had several DJs that would only play at Brooks. and people loved dancing to their selection of music.

I found out early in my career that if you REALLY wanted to talk to your first sergeant and the senior NCO's about anything.. take the time and say hello to them while they sat together.. I had more mentoring from Senior NCOs drinking beer at the NCO Club than I ever did in a work environment. And they actually WELCOMED you to talk to them while they relaxed after work there.. It was amazing.

But the over the years the clubs stopped offering many of the services they once had.. While expecting people to maintain club membership and have them go there. Eventually it was more cost effective to go off base for many things than got the club. I know at my last base the Officers were "expected" to use the Club and their bar area was legendary in the profit making for Base Services. But the NCO Club side, well lets just say that I tried to like going there.. but walking into the club to drink some beers by myself and talk to a bar tender that did not have much to do while no other patrons walking in was boring. When enlisted did go the place for certain bar events.. it was subdued.. because they knew the Base Security Forces were waiting to spot check people as the left the parking lot..

I don't think the Clubs will ever be what they were in the mid 1980's.. Overseas they have a more captive audience in some places.. but stateside.. after seeing the places I was assigned too and seeing many others TDY.. I doubt it

Response by SGT Jody Beach made Mar 7 at 2017 10:14 AM

2017-03-07T10:14:06-05:00

Simple..... Bad move ...... Without being there I can tell you this is bad.

Response by Sgt Marbury Keys made Mar 7 at 2017 10:16 AM

2017-03-07T10:16:02-05:00

When did this change???? There should be separate clubs....!!!!!

Response by Sgt Marbury Keys made Mar 7 at 2017 10:16 AM

2017-03-07T10:16:43-05:00

BTW...it was a BAD MOVE!!!!

Response by SSG Karl Fowler made Mar 8 at 2017 1:26 AM

2017-03-08T01:26:51-05:00

when I entered the army in the 70's we had all 3 clubs, the officers club did not have good attendance and the NCO club stayed packed, from what I heard back then the officers club was losing money and instead of closing them down they consolidated them, and from what I've seen it has not worked out well. So I am all for bringing the old system back

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Apr 28 at 2017 7:27 PM

2017-04-28T19:27:42-04:00

The Jr ranks and md ranks and Sr. Ranks need time to be away from each other. The p.c. Cops wrecked rather club system.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made May 2 at 2017 1:03 PM

2017-05-02T13:03:32-04:00

I commented before and besides the feeling of promoting alcohol I think there was a lot of p.c. Involved and M.A.D.D. A.A. And some other anti alcohol groups..
Which also pushed for closing , combining... I think outside restaurant and country club industry had a hand in shutting the clubs down..

Response by PO2 Donald Walsh made May 3 at 2017 9:40 AM

2017-05-03T09:40:36-04:00

Yes. The Enlisted /Officer devide is a barrier to the temptation for ethics violations that can easily lead to potential security issues. The devide also provides the veil needed to keep proffessional relationship reputations in both camps unsoiled by any social missteps that can and do occur in off duty situations. Finally, both ranks are under the stress of the others scrutiny while on duty, so off duty environments should lend to an opportunity for a period of relief from that srutiny so each can relax from that stress.

Response by MSgt William Winney made Jul 1 at 2017 9:10 AM

2017-07-01T09:10:49-04:00

YES!!!

Response by TSgt Kenneth Ellis made Jul 1 at 2017 10:46 AM

2017-07-01T10:46:01-04:00

I didn't know it changed.

Response by SFC Derrick Hardison made Aug 8 at 2017 10:45 AM

2017-08-08T10:45:20-04:00

Bring back NCO clubs! Last time I was stationed at Fort Lewis(JBLM), they still had an Officers club but no NCO club. WTF?

Response by PFC Francis Ramseyer made Aug 10 at 2017 4:51 PM

2017-08-10T16:51:08-04:00

I don't think mixing Officers, NCO and Enlisted guys is good. In US Army I was only a PFC and in an other army I was an Officer. As such, I can make the difference. Education, responsabilities, behaving is not the same. I prefer separate Clubs.

Response by CSM Andrew Perrault made Aug 17 at 2017 7:44 PM

2017-08-17T19:44:01-04:00

I really don't think many even use the club system now...I suspect that it became all in one for the all mighty $$$$$. Back in the day officers were frowned upon if they were not a member of the O club, Not so much with NCO's and EM's are the ones that really needed it b/c rarely did they have transportation. Now everyone one has a vehicle they want to get off post. In addition there is so much more offered (clubs, women etc) downtown such as or in surrounding towns/cities. I would not recommend bringing back separate clubs............

Response by SFC James William Bolt [ 40 Yards ] made Aug 18 at 2017 5:21 PM

2017-08-18T17:21:28-04:00

Bad Idea to be close to those that you command in a social event breed contempt . when you are trying to relax and may not be putting your best foot forward . If I had wanted to talk shop I would have stayed in the unit and not going to the club sign 40 yards

Response by Sgt Mike Jacobi made Nov 22 at 2017 2:17 PM

2017-11-22T14:17:28-05:00

i always preferred desperate clubs. Familiarity breeds contempt and should be avoided off duty.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2017 4:24 PM

2017-11-22T16:24:31-05:00

Absolutely not. If we have the money to spend to improve morale and we feel the need to spend it on 3 bars, we all need to be fired and replaced. This isn’t the Army of days past where there are enlisted men who only have a 7th grade education and need to be babysat by officers. These kids are all smart and most have some college. If you are a senior enlisted individual or an officer and you can’t behave like a decent human being in front of people or “be yourself” at a drinking establishment, then maybe you should make the responsible decision and stay home. The “e-club” etc. , was great in pre-war Times when women could get visitors passes and go to those establishments. Completely different world. We have entirely new job fields now where an NCO may only have officers as peers.

Response by SFC Christopher Taggart made Nov 22 at 2017 7:20 PM

2017-11-22T19:20:57-05:00

I totally agree with those that commented. There should be a separate club to…lets say what it is…to get drunk in! When they changed it to an All Ranks Club, it basically pushed those that got drunk back into the barracks drinking alone or off-post to other clubs. Those that say, they only “put down a few to relax" are lying. We went to the EO Club to “change our evening!” I’m sure the NCOs and Officers did the same. BTW, I quit ALL alcohol when I left the military…must’ve been some correlation to it.

Response by SGT Kieran Pavlick made Dec 6 at 2017 9:03 AM

2017-12-06T09:03:17-05:00

Yes.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2017 9:13 AM

2017-12-06T09:13:21-05:00

I would say yes and no. Yes because it build camaraderie within the SEPARATE parts of the military; however, I would say no because it does give a since of Us v Them between Officer and NCO/Enlisted members.

Response by SPC David Willis made Dec 6 at 2017 9:20 AM

2017-12-06T09:20:12-05:00

To be honest I never went to the clubs myself when I was in. I think they have dropped off in importance in general and that is what really caused them to make one club for everything as keeping three clubs open isn't fiscally responsible. My rule of thumb while in though was drink with NCOs sometimes, drink with officers never.

EDIT: I wish the clubs would come back though, it would cut down on countless issues of fights involving local PD being called, DUIs and sexual misconduct charges.

Response by SSgt Harvey "Skip" Porter made Dec 6 at 2017 11:37 AM

2017-12-06T11:37:14-05:00

However to me it doesn't matter as long as we show others dignity and respect why not mingle in the same place on base. I go the the Delta Breeze Club on Travis AFB for dinner sometimes and I see all kinds of folks socializing of different ranks. The key is respect and don't get to juiced up.

Peace!

Response by MAJ Frank H Staley made Dec 10 at 2017 9:01 AM

2017-12-10T09:01:12-05:00

Let's call it what it was: a financial move.

NCO Clubs were cash cows while Officers Clubs, except on bases that hosted mil schools, struggled to break even.

Toughened the rules/regs on fraternization yet combined the clubs?

Mmmmmmmmmm . . .

Response by Capt Hansel Bumgarner made Dec 10 at 2017 10:50 AM

2017-12-10T10:50:21-05:00

The Enlisted club system was killed when the Powers-That-Be decided to raise the drinking age from 18 to 21 to be in line with state laws. I understand NCO and Chiefs Clubs haven’t faired much better.

Response by Sgt William Ahlers made Aug 28 at 2018 2:52 PM

2018-08-28T14:52:47-04:00

When I was stationed in Camp Hansen in Okinawa, my bricks was right next to the base's "all ranks" entertainment complex, granted, it had a separate bar for Sgt and below, SNCOs and another for Officers.

One Friday evening, some motosexual that just got promoted to SSgt that week decided it was a great idea to hang around the Sgt and below club and quiz Marines on General Orders, Order of Battle, Five Paragraph Order, make them stand at attention, just general wanna-be DI stuff.

I ended up having to go upstairs to the SNCO club where an unaccompanied MSgt from my platoon was at to come down and pull rank on his stupid-ass before said-named-stupid-ass got beat down hard by several dozen other Marines.

So, yeah, separate clubs would be a good thing.

Response by 1SG Frank Girona made Sep 1 at 2018 1:02 AM

2018-09-01T01:02:07-04:00

Let's us to think forward, not backwards.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2018 12:27 AM

2018-10-28T00:27:19-04:00

Spent a lot of time at enlisted and NCO Clubs, as a patron and employee (bartender, barrack, MA, Bingo caller.)
I believe it give Soldiers a place to socialize with folks their age.
NCO club does the same.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Oct 28 at 2018 2:58 PM

2018-10-28T14:58:31-04:00

I’d like to see them come back, but not the undue command influence to make you join. My OBC class was marched into the club to “in process”. Then clear the club at the end. I like the idea of nice things like Sunday brunch, a stealth location to read/write OPORDs, a place to philosophize on professional topics with peers, and a place to relax....Which doesn’t generate enough business to survive. It’s a catch 22. If it had its own Uber, since 70% live off post, maybe it could be an attractive option. The Brits have “the mess”, but also blocks team things like right arm night or a stable call ( a fine 4ID event). EDIT: the Brits are tight on the rank separation. No exceptions. We did an exercise at a U.K. Installation and wanted to buy a beer for my team at End Ex. We ended up drinking beers in brown bags outside the NAFI because there were no exceptions to the rules.

Response by SSgt Robert Van Buhler III made Jun 17 at 2019 12:06 PM

2019-06-17T12:06:24-04:00

Being an Officer should be a club. Being an NCO should also. It is a way to learn the value of your rank. I always considered finallly getting into the NCO club a rite of passage that I earned. Egalitarianism is not a healthy thing to introduce. Officers and NCOs must be accorded the respect their rank deserves or following orders that lives depend on is a bit subverted

Response by Sgt Mark Tarte made Jun 19 at 2019 11:53 AM

2019-06-19T11:53:43-04:00

It worked well when I was in during the Jurassic era. In the private sector, CEOs don’t go to clubs where their mid-level managers belong to and those managers don’t go to bars (usually) where their subordinates frequent, so why not bring it back for the services? Their are things officers, senior NCOs and enlisted need to do without a superior or subordinate needs to hear or see.

Response by TSgt George Rodriguez made Jun 19 at 2019 4:46 PM

2019-06-19T16:46:27-04:00

Fraternizing between officers and enlisted was a no no in my day. This was done to protect the lower ranks from problems that could arise from being insubordinate to the upper echelon. Remembering a previous evenings encounter could have a grave outcome for some individuals.

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Jun 19 at 2019 7:16 PM

2019-06-19T19:16:28-04:00

By the time I retired in 2002 all the clubs were all ranks clubs. I stopped going to the club when they became all ranks clubs. I started service in 1973. At that time some posts had 4 clubs: enlisted, junior NCO, senior NCO, & officer. Some officer clubs even had a Colonel (O-6) and above lounge in them. As stated by others, it gave us a place to go to be with our peers and relax. With some exceptions, company grade officers do not really relax in the presence of field grade and general officers. I assume it is the same for privates and specialists, that they don't relax in the presence of SSGs, SFCs, MSGs, and certainly not SGM/CSMs. And of course, enlisted men do not want to hang around the officers. The services should go back to rank segregated clubs, at least 3.

Response by LTC Ken Connolly made Jun 19 at 2019 10:04 PM

2019-06-19T22:04:25-04:00

To me the move was neither good nor bad, it was basically a financial decision. The NCO club for generations supported the O' Club, now there is not as many NCO's in the Services nor belonging to their club. Also there are far fewer officers. There is also not the same level of social commitments as there use to be. Some clubs do have separate barroom wings for officers and enlisted.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2019 7:06 AM

2019-10-27T07:06:33-04:00

I completely believe there should be separate clubs. Enlisted, NCO, and Officer. At that point in the NCO club it would be fairly mature, minus the few new promotes who haven't quite figured it out yet. But I've seen both AC, and RC what happens when NCOs and junior enlisted blend. Degradation of discipline and good order for lack of better words.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Oct 29 at 2019 12:52 AM

2019-10-29T00:52:31-04:00

I am old school so I think its a good idea.
Officers need a place where they can get stupid without the troops seeing them. NCOs need a place where they can enjoy each others company without having to deal with officers or junior enlisteds. Junior enlisteds need a place where they are not being scrutinized by officers or NCOs. Its that simple.

Response by MSgt John Millaway made Dec 23 at 2019 8:29 PM

2019-12-23T20:29:16-05:00

Every Friday at COB, our squad got together at the Brigade Enlisted Club. Squad leader would buy the guys a round on him to thank us for the week’s work. He and the team leaders would then depart and go home. It was a great way to end a work week, and forge a bond. When I became an NCO, the NCO club was a nice place to get a barley-pop, and not worry about trouble. NCO’s could decompress and talk real with each other. I miss it.

Response by SSgt Stephen Doorey made Mar 18 at 2020 9:34 PM

2020-03-18T21:34:28-04:00

I liked the old NCO/Enlisted club when the drinking age was 18. Not sure that would work now. Never would want a club for both officers and enlisted. Need to be able to relax, let your guard down. Have to feel most officers would feel that way as well.

Response by SGT Cy Sturgis made Apr 2 at 2020 2:49 PM

2020-04-02T14:49:39-04:00

I think it was ridiculous to eliminate the 3 club system. Each of the three groups has their own culture and mind set. I would imagine whoever thought this up had very little military experience.

Response by CW5 Mark Smith made Oct 13 at 2020 4:35 PM

2020-10-13T16:35:22-04:00

All ranks in one club. What a recipe for disaster!

Response by PO1 Richard Nyberg made Jan 23 at 2021 1:15 AM

2021-01-23T01:15:55-05:00

I didn't know they changed it. Things were different between 1966 and 1988 when I retired. I think things were better with separate clubs.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2021 10:44 PM

2021-01-23T22:44:37-05:00

I loved the Club systems but they became outdated and a financial struggle plus MPs liked to camp out nearby. Perhaps there is a new model, likely a private for profit model.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2021 10:46 PM

2021-08-04T22:46:45-04:00

Yes.

Response by PFC Aaron Cox made Jul 24 at 2022 12:39 AM

2022-07-24T00:39:38-04:00

I have no real answer for this. If one of the higher ups has a problem with their club the next one down looses their club and the enlisted end up swinging in the wind anyway.