Should Special Forces & Spec. Ops. be exempt from certain Army Standards?

2014-01-24T16:52:18-05:00

In your opinion, do you believe these groups should have the right to be more lax? If so, with which standards should they be given privilege to waive? If you believe all standards should be followed regardless, have you honestly made proper on-the-spot corrections toward any of these members?

Response by SFC James Baber made Jan 24 at 2014 5:12 PM

2014-01-24T17:12:41-05:00

SGT B,

In reality these types of units pretty much are unofficially exempt from most grooming standards and some others that are not made known to the general consensus. If you have ever seen any of these types of troops or units during deployments, that should be obvious, I know it is easy to say that it is always somewhat lax for everyone when deployed, but this is more so for these types of units.

This is somewhat true in garrison as well, if you have ever, I am assuming maybe not since most people unless they are in the community/environment have never been anywhere near the unit AOs of some of these units on the parts of Bragg that don't even register on maps or GPS satellites, the same goes for some other SF/Spec Ops units locations across the nation. These SMs can be seen still at times looking nothing like the regulation would state that a SM should be per standards. Although I wouldn't have an issue if they made a permanent change to the regulation for their necessary needs as well.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Jan 24 at 2014 6:21 PM

2014-01-24T18:21:54-05:00

Of course not! We should adjust the Army to adhere to Special Forces and Spec. Ops. standards. Give every soldier the equal opportunity to look like A or B :)

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2014 6:31 PM

2014-01-24T18:31:13-05:00

Leave the Army best kept secret alone. I enjoyed my sideburns and longer hair when I was in usasoc.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2014 8:53 PM

2014-01-24T20:53:16-05:00

I think the majority of them do stay with in the standard. At least the ones I've seen here on Bragg. I walked by a full bird with his green beret the other day and he was sharp! If I become a CSM and see a Spec Ops soldier all messe up I would not say a thing. He earned that right.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2014 12:45 AM

2014-01-25T00:45:24-05:00

The key consideration is the operational environment.  The good SF soldier should know when it's necessary to be in what were once called "starches and spits" and when such matters are trivial.  As for relaxed grooming standards, they're typically approved by an O-6 and usually as an FP measure.<br>

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2014 8:02 AM

2014-01-25T08:02:35-05:00

I personally think that Special Forces, or any elite force for that matter, should maintain proper military bearing unless the operating environment requires otherwise. For Example: SF guys are known to grow out their facial hair so that they can not only "blend in" to the civilian populous, but also to gain respect from them as well.

However in garrison, they should be required (and I believe that they are) to maintain the same standards as the rest of us.

Also, just because I wouldn't give an "on the spot correction" to them, has nothing to do with right or wrong. It has more to do with personal survival, and my lack of authority.

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made Jan 26 at 2014 9:17 AM

2014-01-26T09:17:35-05:00

I really do not have any problem with SF Teams having to blend in and have different grooming standards. If a Team is aboard for a Deployment, however, when they are are on my ship, I do have a hard time with being on the mess decks in ragged, unkempt PT attire that does not look or smell good. I have jumped all over their chiefs because of this lack of personal hygiene on the part of their Sailors and they in turn have taken care of the idiots who embarrassed their unit. Grooming is different, but dress and hygiene aboard ships and stations should still meet the standards of the community. As a good host, if you are here for a short stay or after a combat stop, that is different from a long term deployment.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 6:48 PM

2014-01-26T18:48:10-05:00

There is a time and place for everything! Would you give a medic a negative counseling statement for being out of uniform because he used his shirt as a bandage for a casualty?? No you wouldn't even thought the regulations say you should.<div><br></div><div>I have had the opportunity to train as part of an ODA and deployed with two different ODAs, and contrary to popular belief these guys are not cowboys. Their moves are calculated and precise, if they need to look like American soldiers they will be in regulation per their command teams orders. If they need to look the opposite they do, also per their command.  They are not doing it to push the rules, or be different, they are doing it because it is part of their skill set. Even the simplest thing like hands in the pockets, calling one another by first names, no parade rest or saluting unless absolutely necessary. You see it all day every day in the SOF community. No one says anything. Unconventional Warfare, is as much a state of mind and muscle memory as it is anything. </div><div><br></div><div> If you take a regular army soldier and a SOF soldier shave head and clean shave both, have them separately talk to one person for 20 min then afterwards ask that person which one of those was a soldier, they will choose the regular Army guy 9 out of 10 times. Not because of haircut or shave, because of mannerisms and speech.  You cant expect these men to act like super squared away extreme regulation soldiers like regular army guys, because their job is to blend in not stand out.  Its something you are taught when studying UW. Dress and appearance are the obvious ones, but anyone can change clothes, grow hair and not shave. Its not having those other tell tell signs of being a soldier that can save your life. </div><div><br></div><div>As a regular Army soldier your first instinct when approached by a senior NCO is parade rest. Imagine that muscle memory kicks in while you are conducting pilot team ops in a foreign country where you must keep a low signature(or no signature at all), you not only endanger your team but the entire mission. You may not get shot on spot by a sniper, they may follow and observe you for months instead exposing your whole team and the whole organization you are working with just by seeing that one instant of military in you!! Patterns of life are hard to train out of someone, that is why they are allowed to look and act different. There is a reason for the madness, a very well warranted reason. </div>

Response by SFC Michael Hartwig made Jan 31 at 2014 9:55 PM

2014-01-31T21:55:07-05:00

I have had the privilege to work with some of the SOF community.  You will never find a more ready unit anywhere.  As for standards?  If their mission dictates a full beard and never using your last name or rank and they need to stay in that mind set then so be it.  WE as NCOs should focus more on the Soldiers in our ranks and the standards falling year to year than those that put their lives in harms way daily and rarely get the limelight.<div><br></div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 3:34 AM

2014-02-19T03:34:42-05:00

We are absolutely upheld to the standards of AR670-1, Unless there is an operational requirement to deviate. If that is the case, we have a written order from an 0-5 or higher.<div>When you say standards, do you mean just 670-1 standards, or are you talking all Army standards.. From my experience, my team is required to meet all Army standards, whether it be PT, 670-1, Counseling, NCOER, NCOPD, marksmanship, UPL, DUI, Military drivers license, care of equipment, accountability (personnel and equipment).. you name it.</div><div><br></div><div>I have experienced both sides of the fence, and I will tell you first hand the average Special Forces Soldier takes standards very serious. In all aspects of our work. I feel this is what separates SF Soldiers from a lot of other Soldiers in our ranks. The level of responsibility that a SSG has in SF requires him to take standards personal, because if we deviate on the standards then we have the possibility for a National or Strategic level effect. Most Soldiers do not have this level of responsibility as a young SGT or SSG. </div><div><br></div><div>The bottom line is, A standard is a standard... </div><div><br></div><div>vr</div><div>SFC Smith</div>

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2014 7:16 AM

2014-03-03T07:16:48-05:00

absolutely not. they are soldiers just like anyone else. simple.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 5:39 PM

2014-03-25T17:39:12-04:00

I think it depends on what standards you are referring to.

For example, down range there was a minimum vehicle requirement for personnel to leave the FOB, I don't remember the exact number but certainly not small enough for a CA team or ODA to be able to "legally" leave the FOB. So special exemptions were made. Operationally speaking the SOF community will always play by slightly different set of rules that are pretty much requirement for them to even be able to fulfill their mission

If we are talking 670-1, being SOF alone doesnt exempt you from these rules, but 670-1 can be altered and waived with the appropriate command authority.

My thought on it is, you are always going to have different commands, who have different rules, some make you wear a PT belt, some don't, some make you put cats eyes on the back of your hat and others don't, some will authorize the wear of company shirts with PTs and other will only allow the ARMY shirt. I don't really think its anything worth getting wrapped around the axel about

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 6:29 PM

2014-03-25T18:29:27-04:00

The Special Forces and Special Operations should be exempt in order to fit their own needs and missions. Let them do their thing, so we can do ours.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2014 12:20 PM

2014-08-19T12:20:25-04:00

Situation dictates. If they're in garrison they should be held to the same standards. Deployed, no. They need to do whatever their operations require them to do.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2014 12:58 PM

2014-08-19T12:58:43-04:00

Theres always a method to the madness and sometimes its just better to not and try to figure it out

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made Aug 19 at 2014 1:44 PM

2014-08-19T13:44:18-04:00

I saw my 1SG try to correct an SF SSG once, the SF SSG pointed to his tab and said "Different food chain brah" (that is exactly as he said it), and he walked off. I am not going to lie, as a 19 year old PFC I thought that was really cool.

As for grooming standards, there have been stretches of time during my 1st deployment we did not shave, or worry about other trivial things like that. Its war.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2014 7:32 PM

2014-08-19T19:32:52-04:00

Sometimes in theater or in the field I roll my sleeve cuff once inwards to expose my wrists when it's really hot! It's so naughty, but I can't help how much that one little infraction makes me so happy.

Response by PO1 Donald Kennelly made Dec 8 at 2014 1:14 PM

2014-12-08T13:14:30-05:00

I think your question is a matter of perspective. Yes, they should be given (and are) the latitude to modify particular regulations when it comes to aspects of appearance such as uniform and in some cases shaving and hair. This is not being "lax". However, the personnel should also follow normal regs under a training command unless they are under specific orders.

Response by 1SG Brian Allen made Apr 7 at 2015 10:26 PM

2015-04-07T22:26:27-04:00

In the Army Commanders can prescribe the uniform. If mission dictates then certain relaxed grooming standards can be in effect. If there is a reason for it then I agree that SF or Delta Operatives should be allowed to blend into their work environment.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Apr 4 at 2022 1:56 PM

2022-04-04T13:56:22-04:00

Or, option B, if a standard is considered a detriment or unnecessary by a high speed, high performing unit, does it need to be a standard at all?