Should SOF units utilize a "selection" process prior to assigning support personnel?

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 13:47:31 -0500

In order to become a Green Beret, you have to get selected in SFAS and then complete the Q-Course... in order to be assigned to Ranger Regiment, you have to complete RASP (unless something's changed recently)... in order to be assigned to 160th SOAR, you have to complete a selection process known as Green Platoon.<div><br></div><div>Since being assigned to the SOF community, I've noticed a lot of support personnel that have no business in the community, let alone the Army.  Additionally, young Soldiers who get a SOF assignment right out of AIT become complacent by the relaxed attitude/mentality of SOF units.</div><div><br></div><div>Ultimately, my question here is:  Do you think there should be some sort of selection/assessment process for all support personnel being assigned to SOF units?</div>

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Jan 7 at 2014 3:06 PM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 15:06:30 -0500

Absolutely.
At a bare minimum, increased standards, say 70% on APFTs, no extended profiles. Stay on airborne status...

Response by CPT Mike M. made Jan 7 at 2014 3:21 PM

CPT Mike M. — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 15:21:38 -0500

Until recently I always would have assumed there was. I can't fathom how that decision was made to not require it. They may not be SOF themselves, but if they're going to successfully operate in that environment and keep up, I'd think they sure as hell had better be the top of their supporting fields. Meeting Army standards should never cross these kinds of guys' and girls' minds. I'd expect them to be the same type A personalities as the trigger pullers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2014 8:33 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 20:33:56 -0500

I'd have to say, even without a selection process, there should be a training process. The kind of work I do as an Intelligence Analyst working in Brigade MICO would be much different than supporting an ODB with one other person.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2014 9:20 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 21:20:00 -0500

YES YES YES, I believe there should be a selection process before hand.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2014 1:07 PM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 13:07:31 -0500

SOME SOF units do employ a selection process for support, to include using unit required courses.<br>

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2014 2:36 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 14:36:25 -0500

I am Navy Logistics and know that the Seals do have a selection process for all support personal. I feel that it helps get the right people for the jobs. They also require that once you are selected you are with them for no less the 4 years.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2014 4:39 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 16:39:46 -0500

I spent 13 years supporting 1st and 5th SFG and they have been trying to come up with something but never put anything together. In 1st SFG they started a week long orientation, that involved shooting moving and communicating. However, their was no pass or fail. If you didn't well in an event then they let your Leadership know so they were aware of where you needed more training.

I spent the first 13 years with Group right out of AIT and I see how you can think that it would make them complacent and relaxed. I think that falls under the individual. Just because an SF guy calls you by your first name doesn't mean you do it back. Or if you see them wearing a ball cap it doesn't mean you do. To answer your question, yes their needs to be a selection phase to ensure that SOF is getting the cream of the crop. It is HARD to train an average Soldier to be a superstar with the high OPTEMPO that SOF has. Great post!!!

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2014 5:13 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 17:13:18 -0500

The 160th SOAR has a selection process for ALL Soldiers. Pilots go through 3 weeks of ground training and about 6 months of Aviation Training. Support Officers go through a selection board which consists of an APFT, water survival and the 3 week ground training.

The Enlisted endure 5 weeks of "combat skills" training. Those who do not make it are reassigned. It is feasible for us to do that because we are smaller then the SF Groups and we are concentrated primarily at Fort Campbell with outstation units coming TDY or enroute.

It does help weed out the ones who do not have what it takes to deal with the physical and mental rigor of being in a SOF unit.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2014 5:22 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 17:22:33 -0500

Your in a support MOS. Too many times support soldiers get passed up for awards and accolades because their "doing there job". Whether it be Infantry, Engineers, Aviation, Cavalry it is all the same. Support stands behind. If there would be a selection process, then that soldier should be held in the same regard as well, wherever they get assigned. No one does their MOS. But they are asked to wear multiple hats.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2014 6:19 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 18:19:24 -0500

Yes, I believe it helps bring out the ones that really want to be there and separates the ones that will just give up because of mental or physical demands. You want the very best and the process will weed out those who do not have the drive and think they can just cruise by with no issues. The SOF community has a high OPTEMPO which requires the Soldiers to be ready at all times.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2014 7:01 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 19:01:05 -0500

A couple of years ago, USASOC did try to start a selection style course for incoming SIGINT personnel. It was the special operations forces sigint initial entry training course, or SOFSIET. I was one of the preliminary students at this course, which replicated ( very well) the environment of afghanistan and SF sigint missions. For whatever reason, the course was never made official. I can say that it would've been a very good course, if only it had made it to full fruition.

Response by SFC Daniel Alcivar made Jan 9 at 2014 8:29 PM

SFC Daniel Alcivar — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 20:29:27 -0500

I was in the Army for 23 years and proud of it, retired and enjoying life to the fullest. It is our job as Senior NCOM to teach this young men and woman that served our military to represent the Army as the institutions that it is. The problem is not this young soldiers not knowing or representing our proud army, it is the NCOM becoming so lax in their job that this young soldiers attitude towards our beloved institution is so laxing.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2014 9:01 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:01:01 -0500

The selection process is a great idea. I think every unit should have that type of atmosphere when in-processing. But I think what you bump into is every unit has MOS shortages that they need. I worked for the BDE CSM in Korea and we'd do the weekly scrub with the S1 and it was always the exact same MOS's that we couldn't get our way. So if he's in a low density MOS, it's tough to fire him and kick him out of SOF.

Now on the flipside: This is a leadership focus. Inept leaders will ALWAYS say they have inept soldiers. The leaders need to get involved into changing attitudes, work habits, lifestyle habits, to turn them into a better soldier. An NCO's worth really needs to be defined not by the awards he gets or his PT and weapons score... but he needs to be defined by his soldiers accomplishments. Just because we're in the SOF community doesn't mean standards go out the window. Just the other day the Regiment Commander leaves for the night and all the SDNCO/SDO say are "Okay, see you in the morning". That's failure in leadership upholding the standard...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2014 8:24 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:24:23 -0500

My honest opinion is that I don't know because I never been tru it.

Response by SFC William Stilley made Jan 11 at 2014 1:08 PM

SFC William Stilley — Sat, 11 Jan 2014 13:08:12 -0500

As of right now the only selection process they have which started in 2012. A GT score 100 and above and score Pt test 240 or 260 and above. If u cannot pass then back to replacement you go. I have been in 5th group since 2006 out of AIT.

I remember and will not forget this SFC saying, "Soldiers coming out of AIT shouldn't even come to this unit because he or she will just end up getting kicked out the unit or the ARMY within three years.”. Now over the course of my career I have seen at least 12 kicked out of my Battalion. They felt they revert to the "back on the block” and could do anything in the shadows because it is a little relaxed and not get caught. Instead of realizing if you just do the right thing and you will earn everything respect, rank, schools and a sense of pride of being in the SOF community.

“I didn’t choose Group life , Group life chose me.”

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2014 2:54 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 14:54:17 -0500

The problem is that USASOC does not have control of the support MOS branches. The branch manager job is to fill does slots with qualify soldiers(I know sometimes it doesn't happen). I have personally called branch countless times to ask what is out there and the answer is USASOC, which follows by you don't have be Airborne to be assigned to USASOC.

I know this because I have been in USASOC with 9th MISB. I was and still am a dirty leg, but I kept 270 and above PT average and I was capable to qualify with the m-4 and do day/night land navigation and do my job with little supervision.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 2:23 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 02:23:41 -0500

This is one of my favorite questions.

On the one hand personnel need to be able to "keep up" with SOF forces and thus need to prove that they can physically "make it".

On the other hand I do not care how good my S6 is at push-ups as long as he can take care of my equipment.

With that being said, I do not think there needs to be a selection/assessment for support personnel. I do think that personnel need to strive to be the best they can be, as should any Soldier in the Military.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 8:58 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 20:58:01 -0500

I think initial entry soldiers should have to go through a selection process because I think it would weed out the soldiers who don't take their jobs seriously when it comes to real world situations. Like SFC Calanski Brunson I was in the same unit eight years and I saw some soldiers who didn't take the situations or the training serious. They were there because of they were lucky enough to be sent there. I experienced the best training a support guy only dreams about and never get to see. Those memories and experiences whether I knew it then or not help mold me to the soldier that I am today.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2014 7:09 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2014 19:09:52 -0500

Yes, I think all support staff should go through a selection process in order to be assigned to Special Forces. It is an honor to be accepted into the SF community, and the responsibility that comes with it should not be taken lightly. Special Forces need professionals, Soldiers who perform their best no matter what job they have.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2014 2:05 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Mar 2014 02:05:59 -0400

SSG Krebsbach,

I am one of those soldiers who was placed into a SOF unit directly after Airborne School and I couldn't agree more with the idea of a selection process for support personnel. I have found that I have to constantly keep myself in check with military customs and courtesies due to the more relaxed environment. I don't think that anyone should be placed in a SOF assignment straight out of TRADOC. This wouldn't be the case if a selection process was required to gain entry into the unit. 100% agree.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2014 8:32 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Mar 2014 08:32:23 -0400

I think that there should be, but we're so short on personnel as it stands, manning would look bleak if it was implemented. If anything I like the idea of a short Green Platoon style indoctrination or familiarization course.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2014 5:56 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 Jun 2014 17:56:08 -0400

Although I see the ups of having some sort of selection/assessment process for Group; I have to address the down side.
Group, SF, prides themselves in "right guy for the right job."
Meaning, selection process will mean shortages, meaning having soldiers working outside of there MOS...kinda like an 11B working in an S1 in the conventional Army.
Although a selection process would ensure better quality of soldiers, it would ultimately create unforeseen shortages for extended amount of times.
There are a lot of 42A's in the Army...very few are Airborne qualified, even less SOAR or Ranger eligible....Another assessment would make the 42A pool even smaller.
hope i am making sense of this....

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 3:15 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 03:15:52 -0400

Absolutely. In order to properly support UW campaign efforts, as well as any IW or white SOF operations among the core tasks, you must fully understand the scope, depth, and environments of those you're supporting. Not having the experience or knowledge of how to "make a decision going uphill" or dealing with other such adversity will hamper your ability to properly address logistics, intelligence, and other support concerns. That said, just because Special Operations requires not-so-special support does not mean those who contribute shouldn't be a cut above the norm.