Should SFCs leave SLC with an associate's degree?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 15:51:24 -0400

Response by LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® made Apr 19 at 2014 4:37 PM

LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 16:37:08 -0400

not a bad idea, they could partner with a school nearby like other army schools to give an accredited degree. Can you use the SLC for credits at some colleges though?

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Apr 19 at 2014 4:38 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 16:38:32 -0400

Are there closed books tests and an 80% pass?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2014 4:58 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 16:58:23 -0400

Maybe if they meet some prerequisites like English 101, college math, natural science and history.

Response by SFC Christopher Perry made Apr 20 at 2014 11:31 AM

SFC Christopher Perry — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 11:31:49 -0400

The most simplistic answer to the question is no. SLC is not
equivalent to the overall level of studies one will receive while completing an
associate degree plan. Now that being said, credits should be earned toward the
degree of choice. Most universities will award quite a few credits for military
experience.

Response by MSG Jose Colon made Apr 20 at 2014 12:56 PM

MSG Jose Colon — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:56:23 -0400

Only if the completed 72 credit hours in any particular subject and a writing class.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 2:34 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:34:26 -0400

Absolutely not!

However, an acradeble profesinal association certificate in the area of your experties (MOS dependent). Would be making much more sence, after all "it's our profesion" is it not ?

Response by SFC Osvaldo Vazquez made Apr 20 at 2014 2:49 PM

SFC Osvaldo Vazquez — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:49:25 -0400

I really don't know what guidelines they follow anymore. I'm a 12 year SSG, SLC graduate (in 2010 as a high speed SSG), have a Associates and close to finish my BA. I teach ALC at an NCO academy, got all amont th beat and promote ahead of peers, continue to get schools, volunteer, excell, and still get passed over on my 4th look! I already requested reclass! No point on staying in the 68CMF when I see my own ALC students get picked the same year they came through my classroom. I'm happy for them but very disappointed at what makes me look stained in my rank. What else can a SSG do when they already doing the job considered to be the "pinnacle" of the cmf, and WE (many of us SGLs) we looked over?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 3:40 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:40:48 -0400

Short answer? Depends on your MOS. We can go in-depth about what level/how much education an NCO should have by the time they are attending SLC, but BLUF...some MOSs have a short SLC (4 weeks) and the material covered is not enough to push them over the top for an Associate's Degree. I think the GOAL should be to utilize the downtime at SLC (with no immediate mission and/or family distractions) to complete or make progress toward your Associate's or Bachelor's Degree.  

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Apr 20 at 2014 7:15 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 19:15:04 -0400

Yes...but not from graduating an NCOES.<br><br>I feel that a SFC should already have an associates degree (or very close) by the time they arrive to SLC.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Spencer made Apr 20 at 2014 8:09 PM

SSG Jeffrey Spencer — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:09:09 -0400

Does it include courses in math, science, english, history, social science, economics, accounting, finance, etc.?  Does it amount to about 2000 hours of class and study time?<div><br></div><div>Then no.  College is a different animal and although the Army teaches skills that earn credit, there is no replacement for schooling.</div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 8:25 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:25:18 -0400

My MOS makes it difficult to get a degree. It can be done though. I have been plugging along taking classes here and there with my TA. Making it a prerequisite would be difficult in some MOS's. The question that I have not seen on here is.....does a degree make someone a better soldier than another that does not?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 8:39 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:39:12 -0400

Upfront no because there is no civilian certification like colleges have to meet. On the other hand I believe you should get credit, like they do for the Captains Career Courses, that we can use towards out masters that you could use towards a degree.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 9:02 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 21:02:59 -0400

I'm gonna have to say no. Job experience and a formal education are totally different... Same reason we have vocational tech schools versus college. If you want the degree, turn in your military training records for credits and do the legwork to finish it.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 9:21 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 21:21:20 -0400

So I see a bigger discussion about requiring this for promotion and I believe that this should not ever be a requirement for promotion but it shouldn't hurt. If you have the type of job that lets you have the time to knock out a degree than that is awesome and your degree shows you have taken that opportunity to excel.

I have worked with several high speed NCOs that live their job, most picked up secondary zone for MSG, and that should be acceptable path as well. These NCOs were experts in their field and were in the office before PT and leaving with me at 18-1900 every night and in on weekends most times as well.

Next is the taking the suck job and get rewarded for it. This is the dreaded AIT instructor, Drill Sergeant, Recruiter. At this point you are proving to branch you are going to suck for two or three years to help the Army and the Army should pay that back.

Finally just as I have found in the Officer Corps there is no one guaranteed path to getting promoted. Be the best at whatever assignment you are in and develop yourself when possible to be a better leader should be the true requirement to move up.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 9:27 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 21:27:28 -0400

Um, just my personal opinion but no. I think it should be a prerequisite for attendance.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 9:44 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 21:44:02 -0400

No way in hell SLC is worth two years of college. Not to mention SLC is usually worthless, at least in my CMF.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 9:57 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 21:57:05 -0400

As long as they have some form of college, even if its a cert from a trade school

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 10:42 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 22:42:39 -0400

You guys are all crazy. When the Army gives NCO's the same time as officers to go to school . That is the day it will matter.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 11:00 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 23:00:58 -0400

Associate's in DA6?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 2:10 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 14:10:06 -0400

It sounds good, but at the same time if you could leave SLC with an associate's degree it will take away the purpose of attending NCOES. Soldiers would only attend school to say they have a degree instead of developing themselves in the NCO Corp. Also if you are in an mos where the cut-off scores are always in the 700s for E5, E6 you should be working towards a degree to get those promotion points anyways.

Response by SFC Christopher Walker, MAOM, DSL made Apr 21 at 2014 3:26 PM

SFC Christopher Walker, MAOM, DSL — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 15:26:28 -0400

Having a degree is important, but receiving one doing SLC isn't possible. Most SLCs are 5-6 weeks long. If these NCOs didn't receive one in the past 7-12 years, they definitely won't have one in one month. If you have been in over 5 years, you should at least have an Associates and a Bachelors by your 15th year. One class at a time is all it takes.

Response by CPT Jason Torpy made Apr 21 at 2014 8:04 PM

CPT Jason Torpy — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 20:04:32 -0400

Is SLC a two-year accredited program? If not, then no.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 8:11 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 20:11:56 -0400

I hear a lot of NCO's making excuses about not having the time to earn a degree or that their MOS or the Army does not allow time for it. Bottom line is.. If you want a degree you will do anything to achieve it. I am in Field Artillery and I earned my Bachelors degree in Iraq. I did not spend my day off playing video games or sleeping but doing homework instead. I earned my Masters while serving in Afghanistan. It took discipline but was achievable. Most colleges, like my alma mater Oklahoma, will work with Soldiers. I see too many NCOs not having degrees when they progress through the ranks and in the long run it not only hurts the individual but the Army. We should be getting smarter during our military careers. Stop with the excuses and wanting free handouts and take the time to earn an education!

Response by SFC Walter Mack made Apr 21 at 2014 8:43 PM

SFC Walter Mack — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 20:43:56 -0400

What an odd question. They should, but not because SLC has anything to do with it. With the amount of college credit that many colleges award for military training, I'd have to ask this. If you don't have an associate's by the time you attend SLC, what have you been doing with your career? Even in MOSs with little academic training, you could pull this off while taking one to two classes a year. No, please don't make that a gimme, because it's already too easy.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 8:51 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 20:51:00 -0400

I don't think that a degree should matter for the enlisted side at all. I understand that they are important for the civilian side and am currently pursuing my degree. However I don't believe that a degree sets you apart as a leader in any way. If that were the case then I wouldn't have 2LT asking me for help every time we go to the range. Does a degree help, of course but it shouldn't be forced on soldiers to make rank.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 8:56 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 20:56:59 -0400

No. The courses are not academically rigorous enough to be deserving of a degree. The typical associates covers areas like government, history, college level writing and college level math. It also covers in depth courses such as business principles, communications, and basic computer programming. Slc is only several weeks long at best. An associates is two years worth of academic studies, and slc is far from academically complete when compared to an aa or as, just my honest opinion. A degree isn't just something to hang on the wall. Start giving it away for free and it will lose it's prestige in both the academic community and the workforce.

As an added note, I did hear that writing a college-level paper to APA standards is now required at the ALNCOA, but I highly doubt that every cadre there is qualified to grade college papers... Great idea, but just not practical. College professors have specific degrees and experience in college writing. I saw a graded paper where the student was deducted points because of how his citations were formatted. They were correct! They took points off because the instructor didn't understand what "hanging the indent" was...smh.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 9:07 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 21:07:26 -0400

Not only no, but hell no... As it is brand new LTs can come in with a bachelors in basket weaving and a 2.5 GPA.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 9:51 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 21:51:53 -0400

It's called self-improvement. A senior leader should not wait until SLC to pursue for an Associate's Degree or hoping to get educational credit upon completion of any Professional Military school (WLC, ALC, SLC, etc.); in my personal opinion, a SFC should be either working towards a BA and/or pursuing a Master's Degree as he/she approaches the rank of Master Sergeant/1SG. It's also called "setting the right example for others to follow;" if we as leaders don't lead by example, how can we ask our subordinates to follow our career path throughout the many years of service!!!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 11:35 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 23:35:35 -0400

I don't think that SLC equates to a degree. Maybe some of it will translate into college credits but it in no way compares to the work required to attain an Associate's Degree. I do, however, disagree with the comments about needing a degree of any sort in order to get promoted beyond SSG. College smart does not in any way make you military smart. I myself have an Associate's Degree but it helps me in no way with my job or MOS. At best it will be something to put on a resume, along with the Bachelors Degree I'm currently working on.

As far as competitiveness on selection boards, the degree should not be the first thing that is looked at. It should be used as a tie breaker for the cases in which the NCOs are relatively the same across the board in all other areas.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2014 8:53 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Apr 2014 20:53:23 -0400

No, they should earn it by taking courses and working for the degree not getting it handed to them!

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Apr 23 at 2014 11:50 AM

MSG Brad Sand — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 11:50:12 -0400

No.

Does anyone think every associate degree holder should me shown as completing SLC? Of course not. While I do agree that it would make sense for a school to award some college credit for some of the course work in SLC, the two are not the same...and should not be...ever.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2014 10:52 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Apr 2014 10:52:54 -0400

I was promoted to E8 in 2005. Not under conditions as I qualified per the standard. I don't have a college degree. I always tell my young soldiers going to college to become an officer as they must have a degree but are throwing away their degree to stay enlisted. As an example in 2004 a young e4 worked for me and was going to college. I spoke with him several times and TODAY he is a Captain and a company. The commander. The Army needs NCOs who can accomplish their wartime mission.

College and promotion points are nice but should a college degree matter toward the position the soldier holds? Is there a college course for soldiers? ROTC makes officers, by if the Army wants college educated NCOs per a new requirement then let the Army provide a college just for NCOs to progress in that path. I refuse to see that a degree in Archeology, Fine Arts, or Liberal Arts, makes a better NCO. The new standard says a degree from an accredited college for promation but that is a broad stroke making more check the box Sergeants but not NCOs.

If you have a degree, then why aren't you working your way to being an officer?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2014 9:37 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 May 2014 21:37:16 -0400

That would be nice. Then I wouldn't have to figure out how to squeeze in time for online college in between Civilian career, Guard obligations, Wife, kid,and Life.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Mar 8 at 2015 1:46 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sun, 08 Mar 2015 01:46:20 -0500

I don't think a degree should be a requirement for any NCO level. There are many ways of self improvement. Me, I did correspondence courses, plus it took me three years of getting certified in my civilian job. Today's army is much different than my army. More and more enlisted and NCOs have college and that's great! But I also see many with degrees who have no job. For me a degree says something to me if one starts college, it says you had enough to complete and you might have what it takes to do the job. Maybe I'm too much old school, but for me, formal schooling is only the foundation, you still have to know how to build the entire house. One can be school smart and yet world stuck. I'm a firm believer in EXPERIENCE! Nothing like hands on and brain engaged, learning and driving on. But then again like I said, "I'm old school".

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2015 8:44 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Mar 2015 20:44:10 -0400

Sure, but I'm just a SSG with two bachelors degrees. Sometimes I wonder what the SFC board is looking for in education.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made May 1 at 2015 4:45 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Fri, 01 May 2015 16:45:07 -0400

I want to PLDC and BNCOC on active duty and ANCOC on the Guard side. I can't say out of those courses there was much of anything to justify a certificate let a lone degree. Granted I am told the NCOES system has changed, but I doubt to the point that it deserves a degree at that E-7 level. just my 2 cents

Response by 1SG Brian Adams made Feb 14 at 2021 11:36 AM

1SG Brian Adams — Sun, 14 Feb 2021 11:36:34 -0500

Yes