Posted on Sep 23, 2016
Should law enforce be allowed to brandish a firearm in order to command compliance from an unarmed and non-aggressive "suspect"?
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This behavior has been going on for a while now. Law enforcement officers drawing their weapon without any just cause. In this case, a police officer pulled his gun on a man for filming with his cell phone on his own front lawn.. Is this behavior acceptable?
http://counton2.com/2015/08/05/cellphone-video-shows-california-cop-unholstering-gun-triggering-controversy/
*I have family in blue*
http://counton2.com/2015/08/05/cellphone-video-shows-california-cop-unholstering-gun-triggering-controversy/
*I have family in blue*
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 55
Any law which does not have a clear and immediate victim attacks freedom. Those who enforce any such law similarly attack freedom. I do not consent to having my freedom attacked.
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Unless the objective is to escalate, which it should never be. There is no reason to go to guns, in a nonthreatening situation.
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Suspended Profile
I'm going with a simple "no", that's what non-lethal force is for. "Don't taze me bro!" looks pretty good compared with, "don't shoot me to make a point".
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Law Enforcement Officers are entrusted with a great responsibility, We either trust that they can do the job or slip into Anarchy. A few bad apples should not ruin the barrel. How did we as a Nation get to this point?
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SFC Pete Kain
CDR Michael Goldschmidt - Full Definition of anarchy
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a : absence of government
b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority
c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
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a : absence or denial of any authority or established order
b : absence of order : disorder <not manicured plots but a wild anarchy of nature — Israel Shenker>
Refer to B.
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a : absence of government
b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority
c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
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a : absence or denial of any authority or established order
b : absence of order : disorder <not manicured plots but a wild anarchy of nature — Israel Shenker>
Refer to B.
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CDR Michael Goldschmidt
SFC Pete Kain - Words define mindsets. If you want to rulel people, you define their terms for them. You can see all of the other meanings of anarchy, all of which speak to voluntary interactions between people, yet you use the one which says there is no order without government, that people must be ruled or disorder and chaos ensue. Think about that. Would YOU run willy-nilly in the streets, burning, pillaging, looting, and raping if there were not some armed central authority telling you not to? Could you not defend yourself? Would you not defend others? Could you not trade your labor with others? Could you not produce things? Look up democide and tell me which has proven more dangerous: government or anarchy?
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The policy of police officers drawing weapons on "suspects" needs serious discussion and work to begin to address our nation's current situation. It should be a no-brainer that in our current culture the police can only harm thier standing in the public trust by drawing weapons on anyone unless there is a clear and present danger. Consider for a moment that an alternate word to describe any "suspect" would generally also be "Citizen". In our country that means that there is a 2nd amendment right for any citizen to own and posses a firearm. The mere presence of a weapon in these situations does not and should not be construed to be "reasonable doubt" of any possible harm. The policy of doing so has only escalated situations and resulted in unjustified shootings. The police need to reserve putting a weapon in thier hands for clearly offensive operations such as high risk raids, drug busts, or situations where a clear and present danger exists; such as reaching for a weapon. This isn't unreasonable. This is good policy. Police aren't innocent bystanders. They are trained professionals. It should be a given that we expect them to act as such. It is never ok for us as citizens to condone the actions of any officer to commit the crimes of brandishing or assault with a deadly weapon against other citizens. The same common sense rules for drawing your personal firearm need to be applied. This may make some officers feel exposed and threatened now that they cannot be above the law. In the bigger picture this kind of reform can and hopefully will take place just as we have worked to institute rights for minorities and women. Some will resist, others will adapt, and a whole new generation of law enforcement officers will grow up understanding that respect for thier communities and it's citizens is paramount to earning and keeping the public trust. Ultimately insisting on this kind of reform will not only save the lives of citizens but also for law enforcement as well.
For those that feel my view is too harsh, understand that I come from a family of law enforcement and served four tours of combat where I learned that winning hearts and minds is every bit as important in the big picture. Being a "Bully" only costs lives. Even if it is authorized. The expression I was taught in the Army was that"Any monkey can point a gun or pull a trigger. It takes a professional and some experience to learn when not to." As a retired member of our armed forces I insist that our boys in blue are just that.... Professional.
For those that feel my view is too harsh, understand that I come from a family of law enforcement and served four tours of combat where I learned that winning hearts and minds is every bit as important in the big picture. Being a "Bully" only costs lives. Even if it is authorized. The expression I was taught in the Army was that"Any monkey can point a gun or pull a trigger. It takes a professional and some experience to learn when not to." As a retired member of our armed forces I insist that our boys in blue are just that.... Professional.
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CDR Michael Goldschmidt
I loved your post, except for the "drug bust" part. Police need to understand their oaths better and the US Constitution, itself, and their state Constitutions, which they have sworn to support and defend. No law is valid which violates the Constitution, either US or state.
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I personally think we should move to the much more rational German Police model. District Training Acadamies instead of individual. Standardized uniforms, instead of everyone different, Standardized training as a base, Regional SWAT Teams instead of everyone trying to have their own. Wide and shared access to expensive equipment like Helos and Drones, instead of everyone trying to buy their own. Much more improved, centralized and standardized riot handling equipment beyond what is out there now. Just seems to me we are wasting gobs and gobs of taxpayer money on the current way we run our Police Departments. We need more bang for the buck and the money has to be much more efficiently spent.
Also in regards to the case of the recent riot in Milwaukee, 200 angry protestors should not be enough to overwhealm an entire city Police force even if it is 2nd or 3rd shift. There should be an ability to call in off duty policemen or borrow from neighboring communities with a much faster response and they should all be familiar enough with each others procedures that it should not matter which cop is in charge. Geez a City of close to half a million people, can't handle 200 people? What other country does that happen in?
Also in regards to the case of the recent riot in Milwaukee, 200 angry protestors should not be enough to overwhealm an entire city Police force even if it is 2nd or 3rd shift. There should be an ability to call in off duty policemen or borrow from neighboring communities with a much faster response and they should all be familiar enough with each others procedures that it should not matter which cop is in charge. Geez a City of close to half a million people, can't handle 200 people? What other country does that happen in?
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SPC Erich Guenther
Oh yeah and only 88 bullets fired in the line of duty by the German Police all of last year for the whole country if I read that correctly somewhere.
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CDR Michael Goldschmidt
Of course, arming the populace would also be a great way to discourage rioting.
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i wonder about the lack of training some of these Officers have, We were taught unless there is an indication of a deadly threat to You life or another person life keep the gun in Your holster. pointing guns at people that never posed a threat is wrong ! The weapon should never be drawn unless You have an indication that threat to life exist and You intend to use the weapon. If it turns out ok or the threat You though wasn't actually present place the firearm back in Your holster. its ok to explain what happened to the other person, if they don't like it don't get into an argument those usually don't end well. I'd rather look foolish on a scene in front of a few people instead of in a courtroom in front of many.
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I have always obeyed the commands of Law Enforcement. I have always talked to them as they approach my vehicle or me. " what's up doc", that actually got me out of a ticket because his nick name was DOC. I have had my Weapon with me and holstered on a couple of stops. I handed him my CHL, OL and insurance. We talked a couple of minutes, with my hands on top of the wheel. After asking his initial questions, he looked down and seen the CHL. He then got a little uneasy. he asked me where it was. I told him my right hip and that was why both my hands where on top of my steering wheel. He asked if I was prior service. (I got stickers all over my truck) I said yes MP and Infantry. He relaxed, told me to slow down, as I was 51 in a 45 and in a school zone. Handed me everything back , thanked me for my service and we left.
I understand that I was to tell him that I was carrying, but in the state of Texas they know when they make the stop, that I have a CHL. As I was answering the officers questions didn't I get a chance to throw it out, till he asked. But we were both polite the whole time I.
IMHO do what you are asked, deescalate the situation. ABOVE all else DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD. same way as when your parents told you. Oh, wait you might have to respect the authority first, sorry!
But in this instance I think the officer was wrong.
I understand that I was to tell him that I was carrying, but in the state of Texas they know when they make the stop, that I have a CHL. As I was answering the officers questions didn't I get a chance to throw it out, till he asked. But we were both polite the whole time I.
IMHO do what you are asked, deescalate the situation. ABOVE all else DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD. same way as when your parents told you. Oh, wait you might have to respect the authority first, sorry!
But in this instance I think the officer was wrong.
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SPC Erich Guenther
What about Dogs? John Stossel just did a news report on FOX News tonight, 10,000 dogs shot to death by Police in the United States last year. Now I am not an expert but even if Dogs do not understand commands or respond to them usually you can subdue them with a little on the spot training and some bacon or doggie treats. Some others maybe not. I do find it hard to believe that 10,000 dogs in the United States were an imminent threat to Officer Safety so much so that they had to use a firearm.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
Sgt Bryon Sergent, Your response was proper, I do the same if carrying,tel them and keep My hands on the wheel, of course I also have a Police Badge and ID. one thing though, 51 in a 45, pretty weak excuse to pull anyone over in My opinion. I never stopped anyone that wasn't a least 15 miles over the speed limit and although an unwritten standard the Officers on My Department all had the same rule. in real off peak hours like 1PM to 5:00 AM I allowed 20 miles over, I didn't write everyone i stopped either, depended on other road condition, congestion etc. Still averaged 850 to 950 moving written traffic tickets for violations a year. (not all speeding, included DWI, and other traffic violations) i also started all stops with telling them why i stopped them before even asking for drivers License and Registration.
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SGT Bryon Sergent
SMSgt Lawrence McCarter - Yeah he asked me if I knew why he pulled me over, I told him Yeah. I hadn't looked down , but knew I was going faster than 45.
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To all Police Officers. What is the best procedure to follow if you are pulled over , have a concealed carry permit and you are armed ?????????????.
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ENS (Join to see)
When the police officer arrives at the window, keep both hands on the wheel. Before moving, respond "Officer, I want to inform you that I am carrying a legal firearm and that I have all required documentation." From there, the police officer will do one of three things:
1. Acknowledge this, thank you for telling him, and continue his investigation of why he pulled you over - asking you for your license and registration etc. (ask before moving).
2. Acknowledge this and request you slowly get out of the vehicle so he can search and seize your weapon, person, and vehicle to make sure "everything is legal" - this request can be contested because you have the right against illegal searches and seizures under the 4th amendment and the possession of a firearm does not warrant suspicious or illegal activity as per the Supreme Court of the United States. (However, I would comply anyway unless you are dead set on enforcing your rights).
3. Shoot you and lie. (The media would have you believe this is the most likely case, however in 99% of the cases, this would almost never happen.)
1. Acknowledge this, thank you for telling him, and continue his investigation of why he pulled you over - asking you for your license and registration etc. (ask before moving).
2. Acknowledge this and request you slowly get out of the vehicle so he can search and seize your weapon, person, and vehicle to make sure "everything is legal" - this request can be contested because you have the right against illegal searches and seizures under the 4th amendment and the possession of a firearm does not warrant suspicious or illegal activity as per the Supreme Court of the United States. (However, I would comply anyway unless you are dead set on enforcing your rights).
3. Shoot you and lie. (The media would have you believe this is the most likely case, however in 99% of the cases, this would almost never happen.)
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MSG Dan Castaneda
In most states, police will already know if you are a concealed carry holder prior to arriving to your window. Have both your drivers license and your concealed license sticking out the window and you should be GTG.
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