Posted on Sep 23, 2016
Should law enforce be allowed to brandish a firearm in order to command compliance from an unarmed and non-aggressive "suspect"?
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This behavior has been going on for a while now. Law enforcement officers drawing their weapon without any just cause. In this case, a police officer pulled his gun on a man for filming with his cell phone on his own front lawn.. Is this behavior acceptable?
http://counton2.com/2015/08/05/cellphone-video-shows-california-cop-unholstering-gun-triggering-controversy/
*I have family in blue*
http://counton2.com/2015/08/05/cellphone-video-shows-california-cop-unholstering-gun-triggering-controversy/
*I have family in blue*
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 55
I don't think they should for reasons such as this...BUT...there are situations that warrant me pulling out my weapon. Those are going to be instances that endanger my life. For example, if I am clearing a house that a caller said had someone in it, the gun is coming out. If I am on a traffic stop and he/she reaches under his/her seat or waistband, it is coming out. If they are not armed, I will gladly put away my weapon, apologize and explain why I drew my weapon on them.
*just to put this out there, there are those that say "pull out the taser" or " spray them with OC spray." Different actions require different uses of force.
If they want to record me, I'll just ask if my hair is ok and continue on with my traffic stop. Let everyone film in my opinion. You are helping me to establish probable cause and maybe catch an angle that my camera cannot. Please understand, there are reasons why police draw their weapons. For those of us that do it cautiously, it is a form of compliance if we have reason to believe that they are armed.
This is not an easy job. If anyone thinks that they can do it better, please apply at your local agency. Or I encourage you to go on a ride along; maybe even attend a citizens police academy so that you can be put through drills and some training that we go through.
Before judgement is cast, have ALL of the facts. The officer, in my opinion, should not have drawn his weapon in this case. There was no danger and cell phone cameras are now the norm. Accept it or turn in your badge and gun if you are going to be so thin skinned.
*just to put this out there, there are those that say "pull out the taser" or " spray them with OC spray." Different actions require different uses of force.
If they want to record me, I'll just ask if my hair is ok and continue on with my traffic stop. Let everyone film in my opinion. You are helping me to establish probable cause and maybe catch an angle that my camera cannot. Please understand, there are reasons why police draw their weapons. For those of us that do it cautiously, it is a form of compliance if we have reason to believe that they are armed.
This is not an easy job. If anyone thinks that they can do it better, please apply at your local agency. Or I encourage you to go on a ride along; maybe even attend a citizens police academy so that you can be put through drills and some training that we go through.
Before judgement is cast, have ALL of the facts. The officer, in my opinion, should not have drawn his weapon in this case. There was no danger and cell phone cameras are now the norm. Accept it or turn in your badge and gun if you are going to be so thin skinned.
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SGT C Mendez
MCPO Roger Collins - Nothing wrong with that at all. My father (retired NYPD) told me to always go home at the end of my shift. So I completely understand.
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MCPO Roger Collins
CDR Michael Goldschmidt - RP is very open to comments, say your piece, just as most of us do on controversial topics. For the most part, I have found once you prove your opposition wrong a couple of times, they block you. And that or ignore are fine.
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I am disabled and use a cane. This has happened to me here in Las Vegas. My nephew was helping me walk back to my car one night. The police stopped us because we looked suspicious and he was pointing his gun the whole time. He actually kicked my cane out of my hand and said quit faking that's not your car. Four other officers ended up showing up as "back up". The first officer said we was acting suspicious around this Mercedes so he stopped us. I am now doubled over in pain..which was the reason my nephew was helping in the first place. I refused to allow a search but I did ask if I could reach into my pocket for the keys to my damn car. The look was priceless and of course I said a lot of very unpleasant words to the initial officer. The officer in the video is either way to timid to be an officer or he is a egomaniac with a badge. Either way it could be a good time for him to retire, move on or simply be fired.
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SGT Rudy Gibson
Sgt Joseph Baker - He was using his gun as a pointer and saying all kinds of silly stuff. If I hadn't been in so much pain I would have found it comical. My nephew is a big kid at 6'5" and when I can stand straight up I am 6'3". When the other officers got there he quickly holstered his weapon and started spinning his lie about the two suspicious men and how we were peaking in the windows. I've never been so happy for a remote starter in my life.
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Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
SPC Erich Guenther - You were in Michigan, your UW sticker did you in
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SPC Erich Guenther
Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen - Ha, if only. No I think they saw the UW sticker and thought smuggling of drugs. Similar treatment at the border crossing in Detroit.....all sorts of questions why someone from Wisconsin would use that border crossing, had to explain I worked in Detroit.....it's just erroneous profiling, in my view.
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SSG (Join to see)
SSG Jeremy Sharp - rolling the ball or unsnapping the holster is very different from pulling and pointing a weapon. As you said most people don't even know you did it. But those that do notice now have a more heightened awareness of what is going on.
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When I was a young rookie I used to pull my gun at the first sign that things were not going well and that there may be problems. After I did that one night on a call with an old (and I mean old) cop.
When we got the guy arrested and in the car he pulled me to the side. He said, "Why did you pull your gun on that guy?" I returned with, "I wanted him to know we meant business." "So what happens when he does not do what you want? You going to shoot him?" I said. 'No. I am just trying to make him do what we want him to do." I will never forget his response, "A gun is the last resort. If you pull it and he calls bullshit now you are the one that has to back down. We're cops and we don't back down."
I never forgot that. It changed the way I policed. I still pulled my gun when it was really necessary and I came very close several times to shooting somebody, but it was justified at the time. Talking to somebody sometimes is all you need. Other times you got to get your hands dirty and make the person comply, but that is what you are trained for. My point is that pulling your sidearm when it is not necessary only causes issues it does not fix them.
Now this video. The police officer tells him to take his hand out of his pocket. He is non compliant. Pockets hold bad things that can kill you. I know I would have pulled my gun out just like he did. Then to go ask the people at the local head shop what they think about the police is pretty much bullshit.
When we got the guy arrested and in the car he pulled me to the side. He said, "Why did you pull your gun on that guy?" I returned with, "I wanted him to know we meant business." "So what happens when he does not do what you want? You going to shoot him?" I said. 'No. I am just trying to make him do what we want him to do." I will never forget his response, "A gun is the last resort. If you pull it and he calls bullshit now you are the one that has to back down. We're cops and we don't back down."
I never forgot that. It changed the way I policed. I still pulled my gun when it was really necessary and I came very close several times to shooting somebody, but it was justified at the time. Talking to somebody sometimes is all you need. Other times you got to get your hands dirty and make the person comply, but that is what you are trained for. My point is that pulling your sidearm when it is not necessary only causes issues it does not fix them.
Now this video. The police officer tells him to take his hand out of his pocket. He is non compliant. Pockets hold bad things that can kill you. I know I would have pulled my gun out just like he did. Then to go ask the people at the local head shop what they think about the police is pretty much bullshit.
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SMSgt Keith Klug
Does this cop stop everyone while driving down the street and have them take their hands out of their pockets???
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SGT William Howell
You have to take this in context. He was called to a suspicious person call. That is why he was there. He had a duty to act and investigate. Second, how often do you began filming as soon as you see the police. This guy was looking for a confrontation from the get go. There is more to this than just the video. SMSgt Keith Klug -
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SMSgt Keith Klug
SGT William Howell - He may have been responding to a suspicious person call but he should be smart enough, through training and time as a cop, to realize that someone standing in his yard filming is not suspicious.
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Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
I like your comment that he was an old cop. My feeling is that back in the "old" days cops were trained to handle situations in a calming manner. Based on what you see today, from jurisdictions all over the country, this is not the case. Too much emphasis on using weapons as the means to control a situation in basic training officers receive these days.
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This isn't the first or the last we will have of this issue. Hit youtube and you will see many where the Officers are 100% in the wrong and hundreds where they were in the right. The recording thing is a state / city issue. Some places it is illegal to record someone with out their consent. that being said all the cctv used in those places or by the police is against the law yet they still get to use it. This is why they have such a hard time prosecuting those cases. Any officer that jumps from you filming me to i'm drawing my weapon needs to find a new line of work. Police are 100% on everybody's mind you represent the uniform you are Public. This is no different that if someone in a Military uniform has road rage. We represent the military 100% when in uniform and we are still judged when out of it. Don't like to be filmed.... get a new job.
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CPO (Join to see)
MAJ Carl Ballinger - SMSgt Keith Klug - While you both are correct it does still keep happening. here are a few links and articles on it. For some reason some Cops still feel they are gods gift to the world and that the citizens have no rights. That if you are filming them you should be arrested because they don't like it.
As I have said before the bad ones make all the good ones out there jobs harder.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/man-custody-filming-syracuse-cops-article-1.2731305 Across the street not interfering.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nypd-accused-arresting-man-recording-video-cops-article-1.2675620
http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2015/09/12/connecticut-cops-arrest-man-for-recording-despite-new-law-holding-them-liable-for-such-arrests/
As I have said before the bad ones make all the good ones out there jobs harder.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/man-custody-filming-syracuse-cops-article-1.2731305 Across the street not interfering.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nypd-accused-arresting-man-recording-video-cops-article-1.2675620
http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2015/09/12/connecticut-cops-arrest-man-for-recording-despite-new-law-holding-them-liable-for-such-arrests/
SEE IT: Man arrested while filming Syracuse cops
An anti-violence advocate taken into custody while videotaping police frisking a handcuffed motorist.
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SMSgt Keith Klug
CPO (Join to see) - I completely agree with you on this. The Police should not be afraid to be recorded while they are performing their duties as long as the photographer is not interfering with them. But some cops don't want to be held accountable, the bad ones, the ones that should be gotten rid of. The same ones who don't want body cameras. If you ain't guilty, why are you hiding.
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1stSgt Nelson Kerr
The SC has ruled on this It is ALWAYS legal to record a government official in public while in the performance of he is duties with or without his consent , as a matter of fact if you are not selling the images you can take anyone picture in a public place. there are some limits when the person is interfering with police operations but those obviously do not apply here.
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Sgt Joseph Baker
CPO (Join to see) - I recently watched a video where a guy was recording in front of a state police barracks and an officer started threatening him and harassing him. Fortunately, a senior officer came out of the building, approached them to determine what the discussion was about, and he told the junior officer to go into the building, and he then apologized to the civilian, recognized his right to record in a public setting, and wished him a good day. So some are paying attention.
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No, it's a form of assault. If instead of filming the "public servant" that member of the public had pulled a gun on the officer he would be dead or in jail. I don't have a problem with a police officer pulling a gun when they have reason to believe they are in any sort of physical danger, however it's an abuse of power when they assault a member of the public for doing something that annoys them.
That cop should be charged the same way any civilian would be charged for doing the same thing.
That cop should be charged the same way any civilian would be charged for doing the same thing.
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Sgt Joseph Baker
Yeah, the guy in the video has no business being a cop. Illegal brandishing by police should be at the least cause for dismissal. But I would give them the benefit of the doubt in most cases.
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There was once upon a time when police had authority and did not need their weapons to get citizens to comply with orders. Now not so much. Most departments however, have policies in place that restrict officers from drawing their weapons unless its a felony stop, or the person in suspect is a known felon. But I do not support LEOs going to their weapon at the first sign of trouble either. They should be trained well enough to know how to defuse situations without the use of non deadly force.
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MSG Dan Castaneda
Sgt Joseph Baker - I would agree that you should stick to what you know. While I am not a cop either, if a cop gives me an order, I will follow it, because I respect the law and duties appointed over the officer. If I do not agree with them, then I will take them up with their supervisor, but will not get into a pissing contest at the site. You comparing London and the US and stating that we as citizens do not have to follow orders given by police officers shows your liberalism at best. Take that shit elsewhere. We here are Pro Police.
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Sgt Joseph Baker
Well, that would be the first time someone has accused me of being liberal. Now I know how that feels. I am not anti law-enforcement, but I am a patriot who does stand for our rights, and who adopts the constitutional viewpoint that government is restricted in it's powers and all other powers belong to the people. I should not have to spend my time tracking down some officer's superior to beg him to make his officer respect my rights in the future. He has the duty to respect my rights without his supervisor being present to make him. If you are a cop and can't figure out what people's rights are, then you should get another job. My point in comparing our police to London police is the difference in the relationship when knuckleheads aren't given a gun and a badge. Police who are diplomatic with the public generally get a better response than bullies.
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MSG Dan Castaneda
Sgt Joseph Baker - While I also agree that you should not have to wait or seek an officer's supervisor to handle your own business, I would also not advise you to take matters into your own hands. Unless you know the law, which from your profile it leads me to believe you don't, if you truly respect the constitution as you say you do, then you should also respect the authority given to those that wear badges. Having the attitude that I have "rights" and an officer cannot order me to do anything I do not think is constituted, is at its best liberalism. Represent yourself with respect as a veteran and you will be given respect in return. Most officers are veterans too.
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Sgt Joseph Baker
I respect the authority, but it has it's limits. The clown in this video was brandishing a firearm, plain and simple. It is a gross misdemeanor in many locales, so he has just committed a criminal act. Our founding fathers intended to keep government authority within some fairly strictly defined limits. I guess that makes them liberals, so if that makes me a liberal, I guess I will be in good company.
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If the officer asks to take your hands out of your pocket and a person refuses to cooperate then that person is no longer non-aggressive. Concealed hands are hands that can hold or be retrieving weapons.
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Capt Michael Greene
Why did he approach the subject in the first place? Because no reason. Totally the cop's unwarranted aggression.
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SMSgt Keith Klug
This cop is wrong. If a cop started talking to me, and asked me to take my hands out just because he would get an answer of NO.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
The man videoing the cop was on his own property. The police have no right to tell you how to behave on your own property so long as you are not a danger to yourself or others. If they have a warrant, OK, but in this case, no.
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MSG Mitch Dowler
SSG(P) (Join to see) - I agree if you are on your own property and there is no warrant the police can be ordered to leave.
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No and he was wrong. It was always briefed "If you pull it out, you better plan on using it, and you better have concrete justification for doing so". That was as a MP in garrison. I've only pulled out when clearing buildings, and that was after being told to by the patrol sup or me telling the MP with me we're clearing this building and I'm the senior MP. The other time a cabs license was expired and he dropped it in reverse and no one was ready, or thinking he'd do that. Otherwise we'd use our interpersonal skills to deescalate the situation, call DC and have them send some cops over, or whatever so that we would not have to resort to the highest level of force. It comes back to training, understanding, comprehension of tasks, comprehension of job, and a genuine desire to do and be right. This cop and others like him sully the profession and do so much harm to a damn good profession, the good cops can't help but be placed in line with the bad ones.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/ex-officer-in-md-to-be-sentenced-for-pointing-gun-at-mans-head/2016/01/07/12c3f9c8-b3ef-11e5-9388-466021d971de_story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/ex-officer-in-md-to-be-sentenced-for-pointing-gun-at-mans-head/2016/01/07/12c3f9c8-b3ef-11e5-9388-466021d971de_story.html
Ex-officer in Md. gets 5 years for aiming gun at man’s head
In a jailhouse call, former Prince George’s officer Jenchesky Santiago said the victim should apologize to him.
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SSG Warren Swan
Sgt Joseph Baker - Damn man. You went from zero to full Savage in two lines. Chill Bruh!!!!
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Sgt Joseph Baker
I was just responding to the comment by Capt Greene about the video of the cop putting the gun to the guy's head so he could intimidate him and feel powerful. I don't know that he's specifically overtly racist, but it pretty much looks that way, so now he better join the Aryan Brotherhood quick before someone makes him a belly-warmer...
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SSG Warren Swan
Sgt Joseph Baker - I know you were. it was the way it was read. I was like damn man!! I agree with both of you though. No excuse for the bad to taint the good, but it's happening.
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TSgt William Meyer
There is a big difference in civilian and military LE, I know as I spent a lot of years in both. Some of the things I did in civilian LE wasn't allowed in military LE.
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An officer should not be brandishing a firearm unless there is an escalation in use of force such as aggressive behavior, assault etc. or an unknown situation that could be fraught with danger such as a break-in, burglary, or high risk stop where the level of danger is unknown. It takes a split second to draw your sidearm but may take a lifetime to pay for the decision if the use of deadly force is not justified.
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Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
Agree 100% but apparently that's not what is taught. Re-watch videos of recent shootings, hands in air, multiple officers with weapons drawn from start.
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IMO, no. I once had a deputy respond to my call. He showed up at my door with hand on gun even though there was no potential for violence in the nature of my call. I sent him away. Police need better training and supervision, better alternatives to handle nonviolent situations
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