Should law enforce be allowed to brandish a firearm in order to command compliance from an unarmed and non-aggressive "suspect"?

2016-09-23T13:17:44-04:00

This behavior has been going on for a while now. Law enforcement officers drawing their weapon without any just cause. In this case, a police officer pulled his gun on a man for filming with his cell phone on his own front lawn.. Is this behavior acceptable?

http://counton2.com/2015/08/05/cellphone-video-shows-california-cop-unholstering-gun-triggering-controversy/

*I have family in blue*

Cellphone video shows California cop unholstering gun, triggering controversy

Cellphone video showing a Rohnert Park police officer unholstering his gun while confronting a person using the cellphone is triggering controversy in the North Bay town.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Sep 23 at 2016 1:18 PM

2016-09-23T13:18:48-04:00

No freaking way.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2016 1:37 PM

2016-09-23T13:37:49-04:00

This isn't the first or the last we will have of this issue. Hit youtube and you will see many where the Officers are 100% in the wrong and hundreds where they were in the right. The recording thing is a state / city issue. Some places it is illegal to record someone with out their consent. that being said all the cctv used in those places or by the police is against the law yet they still get to use it. This is why they have such a hard time prosecuting those cases. Any officer that jumps from you filming me to i'm drawing my weapon needs to find a new line of work. Police are 100% on everybody's mind you represent the uniform you are Public. This is no different that if someone in a Military uniform has road rage. We represent the military 100% when in uniform and we are still judged when out of it. Don't like to be filmed.... get a new job.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Sep 23 at 2016 1:43 PM

2016-09-23T13:43:15-04:00

No and he was wrong. It was always briefed "If you pull it out, you better plan on using it, and you better have concrete justification for doing so". That was as a MP in garrison. I've only pulled out when clearing buildings, and that was after being told to by the patrol sup or me telling the MP with me we're clearing this building and I'm the senior MP. The other time a cabs license was expired and he dropped it in reverse and no one was ready, or thinking he'd do that. Otherwise we'd use our interpersonal skills to deescalate the situation, call DC and have them send some cops over, or whatever so that we would not have to resort to the highest level of force. It comes back to training, understanding, comprehension of tasks, comprehension of job, and a genuine desire to do and be right. This cop and others like him sully the profession and do so much harm to a damn good profession, the good cops can't help but be placed in line with the bad ones.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/ex-officer-in-md-to-be-sentenced-for-pointing-gun-at-mans-head/2016/01/07/12c3f9c8-b3ef-11e5-9388-466021d971de_story.html

Ex-officer in Md. gets 5 years for aiming gun at man’s head

In a jailhouse call, former Prince George’s officer Jenchesky Santiago said the victim should apologize to him.

Response by SSG Jacey R. made Sep 23 at 2016 1:43 PM

2016-09-23T13:43:13-04:00

Absolutely not. Even if it is unlikely the gun will go off it is still a chance. Most officers now will have a non lethal means with them, if for some reason they can not control the situation that should be the first choice, if there is not a hostile threat.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Sep 23 at 2016 1:44 PM

2016-09-23T13:44:22-04:00

In the specific example you have listed, no the behavior is not acceptable. But I have no issue with police brandishing their weapon. All it takes is a single second for a peaceful suspect to turn into a violent offender. Now I'm not saying that I'm cool with cops waving their weapons around because they can. Proper training is key. Weapons are on safe. Fingers are straight and off the trigger. You know all the stuff we've been trained to do.

Remember, we currently have mainstream media painting all cops as abusive authority figures who would rather put a bullet in your head over writing you a ticket when we all know that's not the case. Cops have become public enemy number one and I'm not going to begrudge an officer holding his means of self defense.

Proper training is key.

Response by SGT Rudy Gibson made Sep 23 at 2016 1:46 PM

2016-09-23T13:46:26-04:00

I am disabled and use a cane. This has happened to me here in Las Vegas. My nephew was helping me walk back to my car one night. The police stopped us because we looked suspicious and he was pointing his gun the whole time. He actually kicked my cane out of my hand and said quit faking that's not your car. Four other officers ended up showing up as "back up". The first officer said we was acting suspicious around this Mercedes so he stopped us. I am now doubled over in pain..which was the reason my nephew was helping in the first place. I refused to allow a search but I did ask if I could reach into my pocket for the keys to my damn car. The look was priceless and of course I said a lot of very unpleasant words to the initial officer. The officer in the video is either way to timid to be an officer or he is a egomaniac with a badge. Either way it could be a good time for him to retire, move on or simply be fired.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Sep 23 at 2016 1:48 PM

2016-09-23T13:48:49-04:00

"Should law enforce be allowed to brandish a firearm in order to command compliance from an unarmed and non-aggressive "suspect"?"

Are those the actions of an individual or a department? If department, is it written policy or established norm?

Employees commonly take actions and / or make statements that the employer does not condone, do not approve of.
The employer should act to correct the inappropriate action and it should not be a larger issue..other then addressing the person(s) that have a grievance and come to a satisfactory settlement.

So the question was: Is it apropret to use a firearm as a compliance tool on a non physically threatening suspect?
Most any rational person will say....Of course not... and I doubt you will find policy in any department that allows for such a thing, nor any LEO training academy that teaches such a thing.

So I say again, is this the action of an individual? if so address it and move on. Is it the policy of the department? Then let an outside investigation come to that conclusion, hold the apropret leaders accountable, retrain as needed and move on.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2016 1:50 PM

2016-09-23T13:50:08-04:00

No, it's a form of assault. If instead of filming the "public servant" that member of the public had pulled a gun on the officer he would be dead or in jail. I don't have a problem with a police officer pulling a gun when they have reason to believe they are in any sort of physical danger, however it's an abuse of power when they assault a member of the public for doing something that annoys them.

That cop should be charged the same way any civilian would be charged for doing the same thing.

Response by SGT C Mendez made Sep 23 at 2016 1:51 PM

2016-09-23T13:51:26-04:00

I don't think they should for reasons such as this...BUT...there are situations that warrant me pulling out my weapon. Those are going to be instances that endanger my life. For example, if I am clearing a house that a caller said had someone in it, the gun is coming out. If I am on a traffic stop and he/she reaches under his/her seat or waistband, it is coming out. If they are not armed, I will gladly put away my weapon, apologize and explain why I drew my weapon on them.

*just to put this out there, there are those that say "pull out the taser" or " spray them with OC spray." Different actions require different uses of force.

If they want to record me, I'll just ask if my hair is ok and continue on with my traffic stop. Let everyone film in my opinion. You are helping me to establish probable cause and maybe catch an angle that my camera cannot. Please understand, there are reasons why police draw their weapons. For those of us that do it cautiously, it is a form of compliance if we have reason to believe that they are armed.

This is not an easy job. If anyone thinks that they can do it better, please apply at your local agency. Or I encourage you to go on a ride along; maybe even attend a citizens police academy so that you can be put through drills and some training that we go through.

Before judgement is cast, have ALL of the facts. The officer, in my opinion, should not have drawn his weapon in this case. There was no danger and cell phone cameras are now the norm. Accept it or turn in your badge and gun if you are going to be so thin skinned.

Response by GySgt Bill Smith made Sep 23 at 2016 1:53 PM

2016-09-23T13:53:56-04:00

Response by MSG Mitch Dowler made Sep 23 at 2016 2:03 PM

2016-09-23T14:03:13-04:00

If the officer asks to take your hands out of your pocket and a person refuses to cooperate then that person is no longer non-aggressive. Concealed hands are hands that can hold or be retrieving weapons.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2016 2:30 PM

2016-09-23T14:30:09-04:00

ENS Private RallyPoint Member From the film alone, I'd say the cop was wrong. The guy filming did make a statement about his family being harasses by the local police which leads me to believe that this is not the first time the police have been to this house. I'd like to see reports on other calls to the house, what is his history with the police department.

Response by SGT William Howell made Sep 23 at 2016 2:33 PM

2016-09-23T14:33:06-04:00

When I was a young rookie I used to pull my gun at the first sign that things were not going well and that there may be problems. After I did that one night on a call with an old (and I mean old) cop.

When we got the guy arrested and in the car he pulled me to the side. He said, "Why did you pull your gun on that guy?" I returned with, "I wanted him to know we meant business." "So what happens when he does not do what you want? You going to shoot him?" I said. 'No. I am just trying to make him do what we want him to do." I will never forget his response, "A gun is the last resort. If you pull it and he calls bullshit now you are the one that has to back down. We're cops and we don't back down."

I never forgot that. It changed the way I policed. I still pulled my gun when it was really necessary and I came very close several times to shooting somebody, but it was justified at the time. Talking to somebody sometimes is all you need. Other times you got to get your hands dirty and make the person comply, but that is what you are trained for. My point is that pulling your sidearm when it is not necessary only causes issues it does not fix them.

Now this video. The police officer tells him to take his hand out of his pocket. He is non compliant. Pockets hold bad things that can kill you. I know I would have pulled my gun out just like he did. Then to go ask the people at the local head shop what they think about the police is pretty much bullshit.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2016 2:48 PM

2016-09-23T14:48:47-04:00

No.

Response by SSgt Boyd Welch made Sep 23 at 2016 2:48 PM

2016-09-23T14:48:52-04:00

Weapons go off in high stress situations when an officer is not supposed to have their finger on the trigger. That's how SWAT raids go bad ala the 72 year old grandpa who was shot sitting at his kitchen table during a no knock drug raid for marijuana. Wrong house, no drugs found, officer not charged because it was an accident. I wilwsys back the blue but too many make the force because of political/ familial relationships rather than temperament. You see it in swat shootings of family pets that aren't actually a threat.

Response by PO2 Jim Clark made Sep 23 at 2016 3:26 PM

2016-09-23T15:26:44-04:00

The only time an officer is justified in drawing and pointing a firearm is when the officer reasonably perceives circumstances which indicate that the officer is likely to face a situation that could require the use of deadly force. In short, if there are facts that indicate a person is armed and/or likely capable of inflicting serious injury or death to someone, then it's ok. Keep in mind that drawing a firearm is (or should be) ALWAYS a tough judgment call. It's not ok if it's just to scare a non-violent but non-compliant suspect whose actions do not present a serious threat. I'm an attorney and former large-city police legal advisor.

Response by MSG Dan Castaneda made Sep 23 at 2016 3:34 PM

2016-09-23T15:34:47-04:00

There was once upon a time when police had authority and did not need their weapons to get citizens to comply with orders. Now not so much. Most departments however, have policies in place that restrict officers from drawing their weapons unless its a felony stop, or the person in suspect is a known felon. But I do not support LEOs going to their weapon at the first sign of trouble either. They should be trained well enough to know how to defuse situations without the use of non deadly force.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2016 3:49 PM

2016-09-23T15:49:52-04:00

To all Police Officers. What is the best procedure to follow if you are pulled over , have a concealed carry permit and you are armed ?????????????.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Sep 23 at 2016 5:20 PM

2016-09-23T17:20:49-04:00

I have always obeyed the commands of Law Enforcement. I have always talked to them as they approach my vehicle or me. " what's up doc", that actually got me out of a ticket because his nick name was DOC. I have had my Weapon with me and holstered on a couple of stops. I handed him my CHL, OL and insurance. We talked a couple of minutes, with my hands on top of the wheel. After asking his initial questions, he looked down and seen the CHL. He then got a little uneasy. he asked me where it was. I told him my right hip and that was why both my hands where on top of my steering wheel. He asked if I was prior service. (I got stickers all over my truck) I said yes MP and Infantry. He relaxed, told me to slow down, as I was 51 in a 45 and in a school zone. Handed me everything back , thanked me for my service and we left.
I understand that I was to tell him that I was carrying, but in the state of Texas they know when they make the stop, that I have a CHL. As I was answering the officers questions didn't I get a chance to throw it out, till he asked. But we were both polite the whole time I.

IMHO do what you are asked, deescalate the situation. ABOVE all else DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD. same way as when your parents told you. Oh, wait you might have to respect the authority first, sorry!

But in this instance I think the officer was wrong.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Sep 23 at 2016 5:36 PM

2016-09-23T17:36:18-04:00

i wonder about the lack of training some of these Officers have, We were taught unless there is an indication of a deadly threat to You life or another person life keep the gun in Your holster. pointing guns at people that never posed a threat is wrong ! The weapon should never be drawn unless You have an indication that threat to life exist and You intend to use the weapon. If it turns out ok or the threat You though wasn't actually present place the firearm back in Your holster. its ok to explain what happened to the other person, if they don't like it don't get into an argument those usually don't end well. I'd rather look foolish on a scene in front of a few people instead of in a courtroom in front of many.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Sep 23 at 2016 6:10 PM

2016-09-23T18:10:08-04:00

I personally think we should move to the much more rational German Police model. District Training Acadamies instead of individual. Standardized uniforms, instead of everyone different, Standardized training as a base, Regional SWAT Teams instead of everyone trying to have their own. Wide and shared access to expensive equipment like Helos and Drones, instead of everyone trying to buy their own. Much more improved, centralized and standardized riot handling equipment beyond what is out there now. Just seems to me we are wasting gobs and gobs of taxpayer money on the current way we run our Police Departments. We need more bang for the buck and the money has to be much more efficiently spent.

Also in regards to the case of the recent riot in Milwaukee, 200 angry protestors should not be enough to overwhealm an entire city Police force even if it is 2nd or 3rd shift. There should be an ability to call in off duty policemen or borrow from neighboring communities with a much faster response and they should all be familiar enough with each others procedures that it should not matter which cop is in charge. Geez a City of close to half a million people, can't handle 200 people? What other country does that happen in?

Response by SP5 Michael Chambers made Sep 23 at 2016 6:46 PM

2016-09-23T18:46:20-04:00

The policy of police officers drawing weapons on "suspects" needs serious discussion and work to begin to address our nation's current situation. It should be a no-brainer that in our current culture the police can only harm thier standing in the public trust by drawing weapons on anyone unless there is a clear and present danger. Consider for a moment that an alternate word to describe any "suspect" would generally also be "Citizen". In our country that means that there is a 2nd amendment right for any citizen to own and posses a firearm. The mere presence of a weapon in these situations does not and should not be construed to be "reasonable doubt" of any possible harm. The policy of doing so has only escalated situations and resulted in unjustified shootings. The police need to reserve putting a weapon in thier hands for clearly offensive operations such as high risk raids, drug busts, or situations where a clear and present danger exists; such as reaching for a weapon. This isn't unreasonable. This is good policy. Police aren't innocent bystanders. They are trained professionals. It should be a given that we expect them to act as such. It is never ok for us as citizens to condone the actions of any officer to commit the crimes of brandishing or assault with a deadly weapon against other citizens. The same common sense rules for drawing your personal firearm need to be applied. This may make some officers feel exposed and threatened now that they cannot be above the law. In the bigger picture this kind of reform can and hopefully will take place just as we have worked to institute rights for minorities and women. Some will resist, others will adapt, and a whole new generation of law enforcement officers will grow up understanding that respect for thier communities and it's citizens is paramount to earning and keeping the public trust. Ultimately insisting on this kind of reform will not only save the lives of citizens but also for law enforcement as well.
For those that feel my view is too harsh, understand that I come from a family of law enforcement and served four tours of combat where I learned that winning hearts and minds is every bit as important in the big picture. Being a "Bully" only costs lives. Even if it is authorized. The expression I was taught in the Army was that"Any monkey can point a gun or pull a trigger. It takes a professional and some experience to learn when not to." As a retired member of our armed forces I insist that our boys in blue are just that.... Professional.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2016 8:49 PM

2016-09-23T20:49:29-04:00

This question is so insidiously asinine and outrageously ignorant, I'll not justify it with an intelligent response.

Response by SFC Pete Kain made Sep 23 at 2016 8:55 PM

2016-09-23T20:55:08-04:00

Law Enforcement Officers are entrusted with a great responsibility, We either trust that they can do the job or slip into Anarchy. A few bad apples should not ruin the barrel. How did we as a Nation get to this point?

Response by SSG Jeremy Sharp made Sep 23 at 2016 10:28 PM

2016-09-23T22:28:45-04:00

An officer should not be brandishing a firearm unless there is an escalation in use of force such as aggressive behavior, assault etc. or an unknown situation that could be fraught with danger such as a break-in, burglary, or high risk stop where the level of danger is unknown. It takes a split second to draw your sidearm but may take a lifetime to pay for the decision if the use of deadly force is not justified.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Sep 24 at 2016 1:17 AM

2016-09-24T01:17:03-04:00

Can't say the sight of a cell phone ever bothered Me, there are cars i checked out pulled over though perhaps they were broke down and asked if that were the case or if I could help them. , the told Me they had just pulled over to use the cell phone. i replied, that was the right thing to do, a lot safer, thenk You. i would the leave so they could finish their phone call. i pull over myself to answer or call anyone instead of driving. Its always the safer thing to do. People who aren't even in a vehicle using a cell phone, when do You go anywhere and not see that these days anyway ?
I do notice on that Officer the black band across His badge, those are worn to honor the memory of a Police Officer that was killed in the line of duty, that may well have been on His mind.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Sep 24 at 2016 1:32 AM

2016-09-24T01:32:07-04:00

Officers of the Sherborn (MA) Police Department, during a tazer training session.

Response by SSG Roderick Smith made Sep 24 at 2016 11:04 AM

2016-09-24T11:04:56-04:00

Firearm safety rules apply in life just as much as they do at the range. They're taught at ranges so that they are committed to muscle memory. No, you shouldn't just brandish weapons at people to inspire cooperation unless threatened with physical bodily harm, or defending others from bodily harm.

A few years ago, I attended a SWAT course taught by a certified DOE badass. In the years I spent operating on police tactical teams before that, I was always taught that wherever your eyes go, your barrel goes. In the course, he questioned my thought process behind that. I told him it was so I would be ready to engage if a target presented itself. He said "You don't point a weapon at anything you aren't willing to destroy, right?" I said yes. He asked if I was ready to destroy the door I was pointing at. And what if a child walked out, was I ready to destroy them too? Of course I wasn't! It was that day I got an in depth explanation of sypathetic flinching and the wonders of reaction time. The bottom line is... pointing a gun at stuff doesn't actually always ensure safety. In the case of many police encounters, its a weak excuse not to use your words. I don't condemn the action. Its necessary, and its needed. But it can't be the "go to" move for every single encounter.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2016 1:50 AM

2016-09-25T01:50:39-04:00

The problem with pulling your gun is that there is no "up" level from there that doesn't involve firing it.

Response by TSgt Jim Gregg made Sep 25 at 2016 2:12 AM

2016-09-25T02:12:06-04:00

I worked private security for a few years. We were taught a "use of force continuum". It started with talking and deescalating the situation. We could then deploy our asp or pepper spray accompanied by a sterner warning. If the situation warranted it, we could then use the asp or pepper spray, only up to the point where the situation was contained. If the situation had not changed, we could place our hand on our holstered weapon and inform the individual that he would be shot if they continued. As a final gesture, we could deploy our weapon and if the situation warranted it, we could shoot as a last resort. I saw many inexperienced security officers either put their hand on their weapons or deploy it as their first action. I rarely had to use pepper spray or deploy my asp. I never had to deploy my pistol.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Sep 25 at 2016 9:08 AM

2016-09-25T09:08:00-04:00

Don't know what the rules are for officers on situations they are permitted to draw their weapon, but it seems that the LEO should be in danger of his life, or fearful for the life of another, etc before drawing, and then the next logical step would be to fire in such a situation . Drawing a weapon to intimidate a person into getting back, or such does not seem like a reasonable thing to do.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2016 9:33 PM

2016-09-25T21:33:09-04:00

I'm going with a simple "no", that's what non-lethal force is for. "Don't taze me bro!" looks pretty good compared with, "don't shoot me to make a point".

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Sep 26 at 2016 12:37 AM

2016-09-26T00:37:11-04:00

IMO, no. I once had a deputy respond to my call. He showed up at my door with hand on gun even though there was no potential for violence in the nature of my call. I sent him away. Police need better training and supervision, better alternatives to handle nonviolent situations

Response by Giovanni Batista made Sep 26 at 2016 12:54 AM

2016-09-26T00:54:30-04:00

The behavior being put into question is the officer drawing his firearm to deal with an unarmed civilian. However, there are two questions that need to be clarified. One, was the officer called because the suspect had a possible weapon? Or two did the officer unjustly draw his firearm when dealing with an unarmed suspect? If that truly is the case, then the officer has no right whatsoever to draw his firearm. Instead, if he feels threatened, he should take out his pepper spray, maybe even a taser if he really feels threatened.

Response by 1SG Terry Folsom made Sep 26 at 2016 10:01 AM

2016-09-26T10:01:01-04:00

Unless the objective is to escalate, which it should never be. There is no reason to go to guns, in a nonthreatening situation.

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made Sep 29 at 2016 1:46 PM

2016-09-29T13:46:28-04:00

Any law which does not have a clear and immediate victim attacks freedom. Those who enforce any such law similarly attack freedom. I do not consent to having my freedom attacked.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2016 7:24 PM

2016-09-29T19:24:06-04:00

There are conditions which warrant deadly force other than simply encountering an armed individual. If the individual you are encountering does not obey commands and is also wanted for a serious offense and you believe him/her to be likely to escape and/or cause harm to others it is justifiable to use deadly force and at a minimum draw your weapon during the encounter. For example, a "high risk" traffic stop where the vehicle's license plate read back states the vehicle is stolen.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Sep 30 at 2016 8:19 AM

2016-09-30T08:19:11-04:00

No! That's what has gotten police into the situation they are in. I fully understand the need for caution and to protect themselves but when their first response is to draw a weapon that indicates improper training to me. For the heck of it sometime, tune in the "Cops" TV show. It's amazing how many times you see officers making initial encounters with a drawn weapon. This is because that's how we are training them these days.
The other thing I don't understand is why police intentionally escalate situations when a suspect doesn't immediately follow their commands. There can be any number of reasons for this, as with the deaf man who was shot and killed a few months back. Police training in response to these situations seems to be immediately initiate a takedown or start shooting. IMO police training is geared more towards a shoot first ask questions later mentality rather than attempting all possible actions to control a situation before even considering weapons.

Response by SFC Josh Weatherbie made Oct 26 at 2016 1:43 PM

2016-10-26T13:43:52-04:00

Yes

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2016 10:47 PM

2016-11-02T22:47:41-04:00

First we need to clarify. Words have power especially when used incorrectly. If a Police Officer "Brandished: (wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.) he is wrong. Drawing a weapon is not "an Attention Getter" While I know many officer that will walk up on a traffic stop with their hand on their weapon or a weapon drawn but out of sight I have failed more than one MP private for walking up on a vehicle that way. Most of the time they were NG/Res MPs and full time Police Officers. I would explain that the force continuum is not really fixed but fluid, and just by their body language and hand on their weapon they had already moved to "Presentation of Deadly Force" its not what they are thinking its what the public or subject is perceiving. i.e do what I say or I will shoot you. We don't know the whole story as seen on a little snippet of video. The Officer had every right to tell the man to take his hands out of his pockets. if the man refused the officer would be "obliged" to ensure his compliance if a terry stop was warranted. If the man was only filming him as he claims the Officer "In My Opinion" is all kinds of wrong/

Response by SPC Joseph Bagonis made Mar 13 at 2017 6:03 PM

2017-03-13T18:03:12-04:00

Absolutely......if your not compling a law enforcement can use his weapon to make you comply. Also, just because someone doesn't have a weapon in their hand does not mean they're not armed. The officer is not going to take any chances. I am a retired LEO with 25 years expeience and I did what I had to, to make sure i went home everyday.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2017 6:25 PM

2017-03-13T18:25:33-04:00

No, use the continuum of force.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Mar 13 at 2017 6:35 PM

2017-03-13T18:35:42-04:00

Police brandish their firearms at inappropriate times because they haven't been provided with sufficient training and alternatives. It is a reflex born of fear, fear at their inability to manage a situation. They threaten the safety of others when they fear for their own. They also need the support of the communities they serve. Of course they are fearful patrolling communities that are hostile to them, protective of perpetrators. So, not only do we need to better finance them, train them, equip them, but also step forward and assist them.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2017 10:22 PM

2017-03-13T22:22:50-04:00

Only time you show a weapon is when your ready to attack

Response by SSgt Clare May made Mar 13 at 2017 11:23 PM

2017-03-13T23:23:55-04:00

"Having family in blue"...versus "You being the one in blue". Thanks; in part; to the former resident at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., an increase risk presented itself when that person invited family members of deceased felons into the home of the American taxpayer, and shunned those in blue....all those in blue...including family members of deceased cops who were wearing blue when they were gunned down and summarily executed... some...while simply sitting behind the wheel... Even right this moment; elected party line members of that same former resident of 1600... call for more blood in the streets. The threat level being exposed to everyone in blue right now hasn't been higher since pre- 1980's...

I do not have a problem with everyone in blue with a hand on the grip, unsnapped, locked and cocked, during any encounter...with the degree levels available of restraining holsters, that simply puts the officer into the curve to defend against any attack.

So that brings me to this... I can kill you with a frigging pencil. You may get to shoot me...but I will kill you with a pencil. Would you recognize me if I approached your family member in blue as I approach him or her with a pencil? Would you be able to even see the pencil in my hand as I approached? Would you even perceive me... an old white man with gray hair, and a damn cane, hunched over from spinal pain, as even a threat even if you saw me with a frigging pencil in my hand as a threat to your life?

Recon that should give you some food for thought....

Response by SFC Brian Gillum made Mar 15 at 2017 2:01 PM

2017-03-15T14:01:31-04:00

Your question assumes that the suspect(s) is/are unarmed and non-aggressive. Which, if you have family in law enforcement is a no-no. The assumption is always that the person you are confronting as a suspect (or less than cooperative witness) is armed. And any weapon(s) observed is always +1 until proven otherwise. State of mind and what moves that person from passive to active aggression is unknown. Therefore one always approaches and acts in condition Yellow.

If the officer is acting in Condition Red then they have seen or heard something in which they have an articulable belief that there is a threat to the public and or themselves.

All that being said, are there some individual officers who probably go beyond those parameters? Sure.

Sadly, the current mood that is so obviously not policing friendly, it fosters a nagging fear which feeds the non friendly atmosphere which stokes the fear...etc, ad nauseaum.

So, it is a situation where the Continuum of Force needs to be reviewed, but also one where the community and the policing agency(ies) need to work together to foster better relations.

Policing works best when the community does its part in being responsive to what is going on, and being informative to the police, while the police are as open about what they are doing and how they are doing it as is possible to the community overall (obviously tactical concerns and the privacy of individuals limits any complete sharing of information).

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Mar 15 at 2017 5:03 PM

2017-03-15T17:03:10-04:00

Obviously an isolated incident. A gun out and ready gives that officer an edge over a person on drugs who might kill him if given half the chance.

Response by SSgt Kurt Behnke made Mar 16 at 2017 2:30 PM

2017-03-16T14:30:09-04:00

...it is and should be at the discretion of the officer, its the officers life which is in question and they have the training and support groups within each duty shift for this and also in real time streaming and voice call-callback, if anyone has a fear for loss of life, anyone should "brandish a weapon" with respect to self defense only and clarity to all persons in the area whom is the good guy and whoim is not with the proper training and conscious of mind stability in a pressure situation for the best and safest outcome, this is the problem in todays society, everyone thinks they can "direct from legislation" the circumstances of a situation. The quick and capable are usually the survivor in the end, then are sacrificed by lawyers later.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2017 6:19 PM

2017-03-31T18:19:20-04:00

Well, I'm a 30 year now retired veteran of the National Gaurd and a 34 year veteran police officer. It's not something law can govern. Our department has an escalation of force policy which basically starts with empty hand tactics before you go to any weapons. I can't speak for every department but it works for Our and we haven't had any complaints of excessive force when the policy is conformed to by officers

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Apr 14 at 2017 5:14 PM

2017-04-14T17:14:02-04:00

Suspected of what? Conspiracy to J Walk. So many times I see reports of officers shooting people for traffic violations and other petty offenses. No way. It isn't worth killing someone and wrecking your career over

Response by SSgt Boyd Welch made Apr 19 at 2017 1:03 PM

2017-04-19T13:03:46-04:00

Having been on both sides of the fence, it's a matter of perceived threat. If an officer is trying to subdue a combative suspect and the homeowner wants to "get in really close for a good video", the officer has to ensure his safety. If the homeowner is trying get within 20 feet in my blind spot, I would be apprehensive in trying to control 2 zones at the same time. When I was a LEO, our department policy was that an officer better be da**ed sure when he pulled that weapon from the holster that there was a real imminent threat to life and safety and not just unwarranted activity or he would be raked over the coals by the police chief and given administrative work. The weapon was used for defense...not to intimidate.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Apr 27 at 2017 7:10 PM

2017-04-27T19:10:39-04:00

Shouldn't and they are not. I was a Police Officer for decades. Shooting someone on a traffic stop is uncalled for, unless there is a weapon involved. In my career I had more than a few offenders take off on me. I wasn't going to break a sweat chasing them, much less shooting them. I got a lot of amusement thinking about how I would arrest them

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made May 17 at 2017 3:51 PM

2017-05-17T15:51:09-04:00

In many cases you have no right to force compliance. You had better be looking at a felony

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2017 7:37 AM

2017-05-25T07:37:56-04:00

Remember never pull out your weapon if you don't plan on using it.

Response by SPC Don Harris made Sep 21 at 2017 8:58 PM

2017-09-21T20:58:44-04:00

I don't think anyone should pull their weapon unless they are prepared to use it. (Ex-Infantry & Police officer)