Should it be easier to give a demotion due to history inefficiency or poor performance?

2016-04-04T22:36:49-04:00

We have an automatic promotion system in the early stages in the military. Sometimes soldiers promote far too fast. If there continually fail at this new position shouldn't a demotion be an option to correct the situation?

Personally I have seen soldiers that were far out of their level of competency. They may have been a great person in all but you can tell they are out of their league. After multiple attempts of mentoring and counseling have failed shouldn't a demotion be as simple as a promotion. Especially in the case when a subordinate leader is doing their job? I have seen a junior soldier put in charge of NCO that out ranks them due to the inability of the Senior NCOs ability to lead. It's not ideal but what options are left?

Have you dealt with this or seen this take place?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 10:38 PM

2016-04-04T22:38:37-04:00

I thought there was a system in place for this, sir. That is why we document document document.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 10:45 PM

2016-04-04T22:45:22-04:00

No. We should use the tools in place to promote properly. The reason soldiers get promoted into positions they aren't capable of filling, is because they weren't rated properly.

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made Apr 4 at 2016 10:51 PM

2016-04-04T22:51:22-04:00

If you have the counseling and the failure to meet standard, consult with a lawyer. Overall though, if you want it to be easier to demote NCO's, than it should be the same for officers. I have probably met more sorry officers than NCO's in my tenure.

Response by LTC John Shaw made Apr 4 at 2016 11:08 PM

2016-04-04T23:08:12-04:00

Promotion is too fast in the officer ranks and the penalty for many issues is a GOMR killing careers. We have become a risk adverse force.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 11:18 PM

2016-04-04T23:18:17-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member Sir, in the Marine Corps, 1968-1972, there was not a problem busting Marines in rank. I do not remember any being busted because they were incompetent. The best solution is to remove the automatic promotion system, and make sure that the individual is ready for increased responsibilities before the promotion takes place.

Response by LTC John Mohor made Apr 4 at 2016 11:24 PM

2016-04-04T23:24:50-04:00

I can think of three times when junior Soldiers have had to be leaders over seniors. During my 2LT Days we had a former SSG Chaplains assistant that changed MOS to 13 F Fire Support Team Chief. Fortunately he wasn't a dirt bag and knew he was inexperienced. I had to have him work at the Platoon level while I had a very experience senior E-5 Run the track and teams while I had to rode with the Company Commander. The Second time while serving as Company Commander I couldn't get any LT's willing to put in some extra time without pay to help get the unit in better straights. i ended up naming my CW4 as my Company XO. I even had it official on appointment orders. I had a Senior 1LT that was respectfully pissed at me because he felt he"out ranked the man" When i asked was he willing to help without pay just retirement points he flat told me no. I said well then he'd have to get used to taking directions from my XO then. My BN Commander supported me all the way. The last one involved my Dad in WWII. He was serving as Squad Leader for most of the war. One of his privates was evacuated vis sick call due to severe illness. When he returned he was wearing the rank of SSG. When the LT brought him back he told my Dad he (my dad) was still in Charge. It left my Dad wondering from 1945 until 2002. The AT Company had a reunion and for the first time his former LT attended the reunion. He learned (this was in the days before all the groups that help Soldiers now) that his former private was having difficulty supporting his wife and Child so the LT solvedit the best way he could he let the private get paid E-6 pay in order to take care of his family. My Dad at the time was unmarried and no dependents.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 11:27 PM

2016-04-04T23:27:16-04:00

It seems to me that we should first look at the effectiveness of the promotion system before using demotions as a remedy. However, I understand no system is perfect and individuals will slip through the cracks. Demotions are an appropriate tool for CC's but only in rare/limited circumstances.

Response by 1LT A. Uribe made Apr 5 at 2016 3:05 AM

2016-04-05T03:05:13-04:00

My transition from active duty to national guard has been a difficult one especially with promotions. In my experience, most national guard soldiers see a promotion as a pay raise and therefor feel the need to ask for such. I've had to explain it to several soldiers that there are four types of salary increases;
1. Pay raise approved by congress.
2. Seniority pay raise aka years of service.
3. Promotion, based on demonstration of increased responsibility.
4. Special pay raises approved by congress such as the NCO pay increase in the early 2000's.
Unfortunately again, some of these soldiers are filled with greed.

Response by PO1 Rick Serviss made Apr 5 at 2016 4:16 AM

2016-04-05T04:16:35-04:00

I have seen this take place when a senior Petty Officer changes jobs (Ratings). Now you have a leader who has to learn even the basics while the junior has been in the position for a couple of years. A Third Class asked me once if she could work for me because she knows more than her First Class. I explained that it doesn't really work that way. You don't get to pick your supervisors. lol. I'm not sure easy demotions is a good idea especially with all the paperwork you have to go through. Not sure about other branches, the Navy considers it adverse action that really has to be documented in the service record. Written counseling, acknowledged by the member and witnessed, performance appraisals, etc. Lot of paperwork.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 5:44 AM

2016-04-05T05:44:03-04:00

I don't think it should, brother. A Soldier earns the rank he has, and if he's struggling with new responsibilities then his leadership needs to rehabilitate him.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Apr 5 at 2016 7:00 AM

2016-04-05T07:00:46-04:00

Are leaders using all tools at their disposal now? Why a demotion and not chapter?

Either way, with a sustained counseling packet of one's unwillingness or inability to perform duties and implementation of bar to reenlistment, this Soldier should not be a drain on the unit for more than 6-months.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 5 at 2016 7:27 AM

2016-04-05T07:27:47-04:00

Unfortunately there is a "cultural" aspect involved. A demotion is effectively a "Career Killer." So let's rephrase your question.

"Should it be easier to kill a career?"

I don't think anyone would say yes. Unless we were to MASSIVELY change our culture to the point where being Relieved/Fired/Demoted/etc was not the de facto end of someone's military career, should it be easier to do so. Our current system has A LOT of safeguards in place because of that.

It also slows down promotion through rigidization because of that as well. That doesn't mean people won't get promoted too fast, but "what are the numbers?" Would the juice be worth the squeeze?

Response by CW2 Christopher Esparza made Apr 5 at 2016 8:19 AM

2016-04-05T08:19:43-04:00

The big problem is retention, if the Army is not attractive then those with seniority and skills are out the door. What choice do you have left? Promote the junior and hope they can grow into their position. But don't for a minute think that substandard performance is reserved just for the enlisted ranks. Lets do the math, at three to four years of service; Enlisted= SGT/E-5 Officer= CPT/O-3. SGT is directly responsible 4-5 junior enlisted. CPT 130-150 Officers, NCO's, and Enlisted. So who truly has a greater influence? By allowing the junior enlisted the opportunity to lead teaches them before their feet are held to the fire. Remember, leadership is learned over time.

Response by CPT John Sheridan made Apr 5 at 2016 9:09 AM

2016-04-05T09:09:06-04:00

The "zero defect" system of personnel management is perhaps, the biggest persistent leadership problem in the military. A single NCOER or OER with a few words that are less than hyper-inflated platitudes are career ending.

It should be much easier to have people promoted too soon to step back or get stepped back in either position or rank to get more preparation.

Real leadership develops when people are allowed to fail and learn from it. Zero defects only promotes risk averse careerists.

Response by SFC Alfredo Gonzalez made Apr 5 at 2016 9:13 AM

2016-04-05T09:13:18-04:00

I don't know about making it "easier". Have you heard the saying, "Promote to the next level of incompetence, or the Peter Principle?" It takes time for a NCO (Or Officer for the matter when promoted above the zone...) to figure things out... It appears that the root cause of the problem is that by the time they figure things out, they're on to their next promotion...

The Peter Principle was first introduced by (L. Peter in a humoristic, 1969) where he describes the pitfalls of bureaucratic organization. The original principle states that in a hierarchically structured administration, people tend to be promoted up to their "level of incompetence". The principle is based on the observation that in such an organization new employees typically start in the lower ranks, but when they prove to be competent in the task to which they are assigned, they get promoted to a higher rank. This process of climbing up the hierarchical ladder can go on indefinitely, until the employee reaches a position where he or she is no longer competent. At that moment the process typically stops, since the established rules of bureaucracies make that it is very difficult to "demote" someone to a lower rank, even if that person would be much better fitted and more happy in that lower position. The net result is that most of the higher levels of a bureaucracy will be filled by incompetent people, who got there because they were quite good at doing a different (and usually, but not always, easier) task than the one they are expected to do.

Response by LTC Angie Habina made Apr 5 at 2016 9:26 AM

2016-04-05T09:26:07-04:00

Demotion is difficult for a reason, barring major infractions. Promotion is based on the faith of your potential. There are administrative methods of reduction of rank that are not UCMJ, and of course UCMJ. There are several methods to remove officers, NCOs, and junior enlisted from a position. It's cumbersome for a reason...bc has everything really been tried? Your perception may not accurately define the situation. Checks and balances are provided at all levels. What a senior leader sees at the large scope is hard for a junior leader to see or understand just due to experience.
I would not submit a junior SM to supervising a senior SM.
But we rarely look for the root cause of an issue.
Coming out of OEF/OIF, we were forced to promote a lot and too quickly. Not just in the enlisted ranks. I commanded for 2 years...when I took command I had a fresh batch of 2LTs, by the time I left command, they were just about to pin CPT. I've seen officers, 2LTs not promoted bc they continually failed, and 1LTs not promoted bc of stupid crap they did. And so on. But in the NCO ranks, that backbone sure has a lot of ruptured disks and some osteoporosis. If the NCOs aren't the subject matter experts, the trainers, then the force in-whole suffers. I see below comments of seeing more crappy officers than NCOs. I think it's about even, especially given the selfishness and "gimme" of our society today.
At the enlisted level, well really all levels, it's more about the failure of leaders to properly council and train bc they don't have the proper counseling and training. I've been in the Army 18 years now. I've only been counseled three times at OER time, and once was by a general signing my OER as SR who met me that day. Counseling is "negative," or seems like it, but it is the only way a subordinate gets feed back one on one with his supervisor, and hopefully vice versa. Unfortunately, it takes time...and we never seem to have enough of that. Time is the one thing we can never get more of, so giving the 30 minutes, or 10, to a Soldier to tell them bad, good, and a way forward and get feed back, or hear about problems, can save you months of trouble, climate issues (no Obama pun intended), investigations, and UCMJ. I confess I've been just as neglectful in the past. Perhaps the method of reaching the member in need of redirection is the incorrect method...try a different strategy. After all, it's not about you as the leader, but about the Soldier needing assistance. Learning different ways to reach Soldiers, learning to read people, to help and or redirect them is a leader's job. But embarrassment is never a good option...okay, sometimes punishment has to be public. But it has to be used sparingly.
In addition, bc the Army is a cross section of the American culture and population, what constant praise and trophy giving for the standard or minimum that resides in our society, of course resides in our ranks.
Just bc someone looks like a POS to you, doesn't mean they are. I'm sure there are others around you who do not think you're the best. I know there are many who think I'm not. Your personal expectations of yourself don't have to be the same other SMs has of themselves. Perhaps the expectations are wrong, not too high, but wrong or negative of that particular individual. Don't expect everyone to be like you. Everyone has different abilities and capabilities, and we do not do well tapping into those with our regimented dress-right-dress lifestyle. Just bc a Soldier is an 11B doesn't mean he can shoot or run, just bc a Soldier is a 25B doesn't mean he really knows anything about computers, etc.
There may be one standard, though we tend to color that all sorts of shade, there are different kinds of leaders and influence. Not everyone responds to the loud and fast paced leader.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Apr 5 at 2016 9:45 AM

2016-04-05T09:45:17-04:00

I think it really comes down to what the person is or is not doing and their coach-ability. If it is something they are repeatedly doing wrong, than there should be a counseling packet which then gives you grounds for an Article 15 which then can result in the demotion. But in there lays the problem. It requires someone to do paperwork and to track things giving up of their already limited time. Does that give leadership an excuse not to do it? Of course not but let us be honest, as leaders we hate doing the paperwork. More often than not, counseling packets are left to the night before resulting in almost the same sort of behavior as cramming for a major test or something. We also know that if one of our Soldiers are placed on extra duty that it is up to us to supervise that extra duty which again results in giving up even more amounts of our limited personal time. So while I agree that actions should be taken when someone is promoted beyond their means; I do not think it just lies with that service member. Their failure is a direct reflection on their leadership and any action taken reflects on the entire chain of command as well.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 11:00 AM

2016-04-05T11:00:10-04:00

There is already a system in place to demote people that fail. It has checks and balances so that it is fairly used. If the CoC is not following procedures or did not make a proper paper trail how do you know its not just a personality issue they are being demoted for.

Let me give you and example of your hypothetical system:
Seaman Timmy is a push button E4 he has been on the ship for 6 months. His LPO had to work his but off to make E4, E5 and E6. He hates Bush buttons sailors. So he has Seaman Timmy demoted to E3. He bases this off the fact Seaman Timmy has been on board 6 months and is not fully qualified an unrealistic accomplishment.

The current system:
LPO must show a 3 part paper trail to the Chiefs mess, then the XO, then the CO before Seaman Timmy gets demoted. There are 4 Stages to demote someone so they have time to correct their behavior AND to call foul if they are being railroaded by a superior with an issue.

The System works as it is Do the paperwork and send it up the chain. I think the larger issue is the laziness of the CoC in doing THIER job!!

Response by SMSgt Thor Merich made Apr 5 at 2016 11:25 AM

2016-04-05T11:25:43-04:00

There is something called the "Peter Principle" which says that people are promoted to the level of incompetency. This isn't true always, but it does seem to explain why in the military (and other government agencies) that some folks are promoted despite their ability to do the job. The biggest issue that I see is the failure to demote. Just because someone is great at one position, doesn't guarantee that they will be great at the next level. If someone isn't cutting it, demote them back down to where they are the greatest asset to the organization.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Apr 5 at 2016 2:02 PM

2016-04-05T14:02:39-04:00

In 30 years of service I saw two reduction boards for inefficiency (both in the 80's) one was a SSG and the other a SGT. In both instances the NCO was retained in grade and moved from the line platoons to an administrative position. In both instances lack of clearly defined counseling outlining standards of performance were cited as the reason for retention in grade. My take on it was that you had to have a law degree or masters in technical writing to meet the level of documentation they wanted. My advice for what its worth is to do your counseling, define clear objectives based on objective and quantifiable outcomes and use the NCOER ratings to hold the poor performer at their present grade if a SSG, SFC or MSG. If your counseling's are squared away and based on the same standards showing a failed path to better performance you should be able to hold poor performing SPC's, and SGT's at grade. Unfortunately short of UCMJ for Illegal, unethical or immoral acts I don't see anyone getting an admin reduction successfully processed. Any other grey beards out there who had success in this I'd be interested in hearing.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Apr 5 at 2016 2:02 PM

2016-04-05T14:02:40-04:00

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Apr 5 at 2016 9:35 PM

2016-04-05T21:35:12-04:00

Sir, I have never seen nor heard of a junior Soldier taking charge of there senior under any circumstance, it is legally impossible. If the NCO is incompetent he or she is moved out of position by command and dealt with under corrective training or UCMJ. So whichever CSM and or officer allowed this they were delinquent in their duties. The first thing I would challenge you and your organization with is to retrain that young leader, NCO or Officer. Someone in that COC recommended that NCO, who's fault is it that they are not prepared, the Plt. Sgt. and Plt. Leader (maybe), I think so. You mention automatic promotion, NCO's are not automatic as you say, however through Major, Officers are. I notice that you focus on the incompetence of NCO's I am sure you as an Officer have never seen and incompetent officer. There are ways to remove and demote incompetent NCO's and Officers. I encourage you to read the regulations, there is a process through which an NCO can be reduced without UCMJ, I have been out for a while but I believe it is an Administrative Reduction Board (not to be done lightly), I have presided over a few.

I will tell you that in 31 years of service I have seen my fare share of incompetence in both structures, I challenged myself to what I am challenging you with, do the research speak to the next level of command and take action. This action in particular requires the promotion authority to take action, in the case of an E5/E6 that is a Battalion Cdr. and CSM. For an incompetent Officer, once appropriately counseled Company Grade (such as yourself) is determined by Bn Command and Field Grade by BDE CMD, the General Officer can reserve all rights for Officers as the CM Convening Authority.

Again I have been out for over 5 years, but you get the point! Lead from the front means taking responsibility for your actions and those you are appointed over.

Thank you CSM (R) Darieus A. ZaGara

Response by SGT J M Porters made Apr 6 at 2016 1:56 AM

2016-04-06T01:56:26-04:00

Better said than done. No one wants to get demoted. As a leader, we are trained to reach down and touch the soul of our subordinate. The trick is knowing your troops and building on their strengths and shoring up their weakness. The easiest thing to do is give up. I remember I stayed the same rank for two years. And I stayed in trouble every day. And if I was not in trouble I was on sick call. I had a MSG that looked at me one day and said I know actually what you need. And guess what it was responsibility. From the day he put me in charge and gradually added responsibility to me. I rose up to every occasion. I went from PFC to SP4 in three months. Made SGT E-5 in two months. Then move to NCOIC Communication center at Brigade. Became the Brigade Cmdr personal driver. From there OCS. At that point, I realized I could make it in the Army but did not know about civilian life. What we forget is most of us need someone to believe in us. And not just evaluated us as pieces on a chess board. You are only as strong as the men you command. My greatest asset was being able to think outside the box when need but understanding the box had a purpose also. Before you demote or put a fellow soldier away. As this question if it was me what would I want someone to do for me. Our men and women are not stepping stones to get you somewhere but they are your team that you need to know they have your back 100%. Let me say I will never forget the guys I served with and I will not forget your service. Thanks again and keep pressing forward!!

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 8:54 AM

2016-04-06T08:54:25-04:00

It's extremely easy to demote some people and hard to demote others. Once above the rank of E7, it usually takes a Brigade or Division Commander to demote someone. The others can be administratively reduced (at least the SGT's) for lack of performance. I don't think it needs to be made easier. It is difficult for a reason. Someone saw fit to promote them. It should be hard to take that away. If leaders are doing what they are supposed to, then the reduction is a matter of course over time. Counsel, observe, counsel, observe, take action. You can't just observe someone and determine they are a sack of smashed tuna and demote them. Easy=lazy.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Apr 6 at 2016 10:34 AM

2016-04-06T10:34:07-04:00

There is a demotion. Article 92 dereliction of duty. Or many other UCMJ actions. Additionally there are administrative reduction boards where the can be reduced. Commands do them all the time we had monthly court/reduction boards in 3 CAB held people to standards.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 4:16 PM

2016-04-07T16:16:08-04:00

Not on the word of a LT. There is a standard in place to reduce a soldier. It works, I've both used it and had it used against me. How about easier reductions of 1LTs and CPTs that can't do their job effectively?

Response by SPC Kevin Schober made Apr 7 at 2016 4:24 PM

2016-04-07T16:24:14-04:00

I agree BUT I have seen this happen with 2nd Lts more than privates . Just because someone has a college education does not mean they have the ability to lead or that they are the sharpest tool in the shed :-) . I had a Captain that told me he majored in Modern Dance in College and he was in charge of a support battery in a FA Unit. He had no clue how to even attempt to understand maintenance at the Motor Pool and when he tried to advise on how things could operate better we all just shook our heads and prayed he went back to the barracks. We did a lot of aerobics for PT .They seem to promote the 2nd LT to 1st LT rather quickly when I was stationed in Germany. The problem is not just with the enlisted ranks. Promotions are done a lot just to fill a vacancy and to try to hit reenlistment goals . If a soldier of any rank enlisted or commissioned is not capable of doing the job that is required for that rank then they should not be wearing that rank. If that means a demotion than that is what should be taking place. BUT this must be done with the Officers that in way over their heads too.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 4:37 PM

2016-04-07T16:37:04-04:00

Easy as AR 600-8-19 , Section III. 10-5

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 4:49 PM

2016-04-07T16:49:14-04:00

If you consistently fail in corporate America, you loose your job. Period. And they don't have to give you a reason often times. The entitlement attitude of "I just got promoted and therefore don't have to perform" has to stop. The problem often times is quantifying ones performance and documenting it properly.

Response by SrA Paul Pfeil made Apr 7 at 2016 4:54 PM

2016-04-07T16:54:16-04:00

I think the Lt that wrote this should be demoted back to fifth grade as he can not spell, uses improper sentence structure, and incorrect words.
In his experience? How many years has an Lt actually been in the military any way? How many troops has he been charged with? Perhaps the problem is not with his troops, but with his bad leadership.

Response by CW2 Carl Swanson made Apr 7 at 2016 5:13 PM

2016-04-07T17:13:23-04:00

LT, I know you are prior enlisted, but I was on active duty when they changed the TIG requirements to automatically promote from 2LT (18 months) to 1LT (18 months) to CPT. We had the same comments then. How can an officer be ready to command after only having 3 years experience at the Platoon level? In many cases, the young officer has not even really learned his basic job much less be able to competently lead others. It has obviously worked out unless they reverted back to the old time in grade requirements.
I agree that just because they can be promoted, doesn't necessarily mean they should. In my opinion, there is less of an issue with NCOs as there is with officers. The only reason I say this is because there are so many more NCOs available in a Company to only about 5 officers. Unfortunately, the incompetent officers have a much broader impact than the NCOs do. Of course, if they are really screwed up, the Battalion Commander can fix the problem very quickly and shuffle the young officer off to some obscure job.
It's all about mentoring and training that most often comes from experience.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 6:47 PM

2016-04-07T18:47:46-04:00

I'd say it's already pretty easy if you use the proper channels. If you use progressive counseling and rate them honestly and fairly, it is a slam dunk to demote them if that's what needs to be done. I'll be 100% honest; I have seriously messed up before, and my stripe was threatened. My supervisor had regular feedbacks with me and used progressive counseling, kept everything zipped up tight and kept every record of it, and Legal straight up told her that if my Commander wanted a stripe, all's he had to do was say the word. Luckily my Commander gave me one last shot, and I did everything I could to dig myself back to the top, which I did and I gotta say I am a LOT better as an NCO and a person for it. But it demonstrated that as long as you do everything the way you need to and keep good records, you can take a stripe with relative ease if that's what really needs to be done.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 7:47 PM

2016-04-07T19:47:24-04:00

AR 600-8-19 chapter 10-1 and 10-2. It's not as hard as you think.

Response by SGT Darrell Griffin made Apr 13 at 2016 5:23 AM

2016-04-13T05:23:20-04:00

it has been that way far to long

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Apr 27 at 2016 8:34 PM

2016-04-27T20:34:56-04:00

You can always look at reductions for inefficiency

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Apr 27 at 2016 8:40 PM

2016-04-27T20:40:08-04:00

I made E-4 just before it went automatic, so my opinion is old school, but I think we need to revert to that. Do away with the alien concept of how one becomes a Corporal in the Army, and make Corporal automatic upon successfully passing the promotion board. This would give Jr. Nco's the exposure to leadership, and yet not be afraid to make a mistake.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2018 4:21 PM

2018-05-27T16:21:22-04:00

The issue i see, at least in the Army, is they hand out promotions. You go to a board. Get ask a bunch of questions you dam near memorized, get a "p" status, go to a NCO school and Bam you graduate and more than likely get promoted next month. The Marines was alot alike but it seemed harder to pick up rank there. It seemed if you weren't going to make a good NCO then you would get a nonrec. I work with NCOs where it's like how the hell did they let you get promoted? You're lazy, incompotient , you half ass do your job, and you live by double standards. The military needs to check who they are promoting before promoting them.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 27 at 2018 5:46 PM

2018-05-27T17:46:51-04:00

I agree