Should I turn in a member of the team I lead for telling me he committed a crime? Am I legally liable if I do not?

2016-03-02T11:58:27-05:00

Team member told me he is bought a hand gun for a woman he believes to be a felon, that has active (non felony) warrants for her arrest. He was also supplying her with a car but has gotten that back. He is trying to get the gun back but she can not or will not return it. Claims she threw it in a lake.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2016 12:00 PM

2016-03-02T12:00:09-05:00

Oh, this REALLY needs to be escalated to your CoC. If not to get him in trouble, but to AT LEAST get him some help, legally.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2016 12:00 PM

2016-03-02T12:00:22-05:00

Yes. You should.

Response by Sgt Tammy Wallace made Mar 2 at 2016 12:03 PM

2016-03-02T12:03:15-05:00

whoa! that is a really odd situation you're in...maybe call a tip line where you can remain anonymous? shoot (no pun intended) I don't know how to advise you of this one. really tough spot your in. :(

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2016 12:06 PM

2016-03-02T12:06:13-05:00

Yes. This called a straw purchase. The attached may help you decide.
http://smartgunlaws.org/straw-purchases-policy-summary/

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Mar 2 at 2016 12:07 PM

2016-03-02T12:07:58-05:00

Not an enviable position to be in. You need to be straight with this guy and tell him you can't sit on that kind of information. Perhaps convince him to let you accompany him as he reports this to your chain-of-command, but if he won't go, you cannot pretend you didn't hear of it. Either way, don't wait on this. Good luck.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2016 12:10 PM

2016-03-02T12:10:48-05:00

SGT Steve Oakes Assuming he still has the paperwork with the weapon info on it he should report it stolen. It can/will be traced back to him if used in a crime.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2016 12:12 PM

2016-03-02T12:12:43-05:00

The purchase itself was a felony. If she commits a crime with the gun, he can get additional charges.

There is no gray area here.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2016 12:16 PM

2016-03-02T12:16:05-05:00

Yes you should. But first get the story;
Yes he gifted her the firearm, but under what pretense? Did he know she was a felon or was he swooned?

He should be the one reporting the mess if infant he was duped. We're all human and stupid with when certain feelings come into play.

Talk to him first regarding the issue. This has to be reported, and fast. So the question that remains is will he man it admit to his stupidity and attempt to fix the issue or cower and go down anyway but in a way much worse.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 2 at 2016 12:46 PM

2016-03-02T12:46:38-05:00

Being aware of it makes you "complicit" in it, ethically, if not legally.

Think of it in simpler terms. You walk in on a troop smoking pot (whether peer, junior, or senior). Failure to report means that you "condone" the actions.

The last question you want in any investigation is "Why didn't you report this?" (When you believe there is a legal reason why you should).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2016 12:59 PM

2016-03-02T12:59:44-05:00

Yup. Just another case of dudes doing stupid things for females. Could you sleep at night if this female shot and killed this dude with a straw purchased gun he bought

Response by SPC Andrew Griffin made Mar 2 at 2016 1:23 PM

2016-03-02T13:23:56-05:00

Yes you should! Because if you don't stop him now! He may commit a Greater Crime and Worse Offense! You don't want that on your Conscience!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2016 1:34 PM

2016-03-02T13:34:24-05:00

So after reading all the comments, i feel like whatever you have said to this Soldier is going in one ear and out the other. Take the appropriate actions as any NCO or other Soldier for the matter would and turn this Soldier in to get help. If he won't do it for himself do it for him. Yes he may get in a bit of trouble but he may end up thanking you afterwards. Do the RIGHT thing SGT.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Mar 2 at 2016 1:44 PM

2016-03-02T13:44:30-05:00

Only you can answer that question and it depends on what kind of a world you want to live in. One option is to give the person an opportunity to turn themselves in before you notify the authorities.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2016 2:02 PM

2016-03-02T14:02:18-05:00

Yes you should report it, and yes, not reporting it is a potential crime.
Your Soldier is in a very bad place and needs some real counseling, and not just the DA 4856 kind.

May I be of some assistance in formulating an approach?

Response by SGT Steve Oakes made Mar 2 at 2016 2:28 PM

2016-03-02T14:28:06-05:00

Thanks for all your help. From some of the responses it seems some of you think I'm some till serving. I wish that was the case. A word word with the Platoon Sgt. Then a trip to Top's office ,and it would just be moral support from there.

Response by SGT Travis Deuley made Mar 2 at 2016 2:29 PM

2016-03-02T14:29:06-05:00

Actually, he might not be in that bad of a situation. The Federal and State laws barring felons from owning/possessing firearms, has been under much reform. First, you need to find out what your state's laws are. Some states allow non-violent felons to own firearms, cleansing periods, rights restoration, etc. I would also figure out is she is indeed a felon! In the end, this should be taken higher, however, you should do all in your power to protect your team member. It seems to me that he really did not know what he was doing in this situation.

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made Mar 2 at 2016 2:39 PM

2016-03-02T14:39:58-05:00

SGT Steve Oakes you have no choice. That person has forced you into a position where they have committed a felony. If he purchased a gun for a person he believed at the time of purchase was not legal to buy a firearm, that is an illegal purchase. Not only is it an illegal purchase, but it is not a state or local crime, this is federal. You will have your ass nailed to the wall if this comes to light, and they find out you knew and said nothing. You might also try convincing this person to do themselves a solid and turn themselves in voluntarily rather than waiting to be caught.

http://www.dontlie.org/straw_purchasing.cfm
https://www.nssf.org/factsheets/PDF/strawPurchase.pdf

Straw Purchasing | Dontlie.org

Straw Purchasing

Response by SMSgt Sheila Berg made Mar 2 at 2016 2:40 PM

2016-03-02T14:40:18-05:00

You're an NCO! You have a duty. If a crime is committed and you have some knowledge you could be in trouble.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Mar 2 at 2016 2:53 PM

2016-03-02T14:53:40-05:00

I probably will have a good talk with him to shape up his life and let it be.

Response by MSgt James Mullis made Mar 2 at 2016 3:15 PM

2016-03-02T15:15:04-05:00

Yes and Yes. I'm also pretty sure that under the UCMJ you can be held responsible for having knowledge of a crime and not reporting it. I'm inferring this by recent reports of courts marshals of military members prosecuted for having knowledge of sexual misconduct but not reporting it.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2016 3:20 PM

2016-03-02T15:20:27-05:00

You have an obligation to either turn him in or have him turn himself in.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Mar 2 at 2016 3:39 PM

2016-03-02T15:39:53-05:00

You need to tell your team member of your situation and the only solution because now both of you are ineffective and a liability. Both should report it together ASAP, if he refuses then you need to report it ASAP, the TEAM is only as strong as the weakest link.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Mar 2 at 2016 4:03 PM

2016-03-02T16:03:02-05:00

Unfortunately Yes. I'm pretty sure if he told you, you are legally liable.

Response by 1SG Todd Sullivan made Mar 2 at 2016 5:05 PM

2016-03-02T17:05:15-05:00

So some crazy answers here, BLUF, with some of the new federal stuff signed into executive order, what the kid did is a hands down top to bottom felony, and you having known about it.... IF SHE commits a violent crime or gives it to someone who does, your both on the hook.... Just saw a civilian buddies kid get locked up for 3 years for doing the same thing, my buddy has been trying for the last 5 months to get his guns back because when they raided his house looking for his son, they confiscated his stuff to "investigate". Oh and he had no idea what his 22 year old son had done, and the kid doesn't live at home but it was a last know address. For what it's worth.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Mar 2 at 2016 5:42 PM

2016-03-02T17:42:41-05:00

SGT Steve Oakes - Well, first let me point out the obvious: YOU just posted this on social media. It's now a matter of record for the prosecution --the prosecution of YOUR case. As you simply outlined in your question, you know have first-hand information of a possible felony. Yes, every felon throws weapons into lakes. Police dive teams exist for only two reasons: 1.) To recover dead bodies, and 2.) to recover evidence. My recommendation would be to immediately log-off of RP and head to your local law enforcement agency with the information. In the eyes of the law, silence = consent. Let the police decide if there are grounds for a crime.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Mar 2 at 2016 5:54 PM

2016-03-02T17:54:15-05:00

Yep. You have to turn him in. However, he did come forward so try to go easy on him, like saying "Let's go talk to the right people about this".

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Mar 2 at 2016 6:12 PM

2016-03-02T18:12:16-05:00

That is the definition of a straw purchase. It is a felony. You are aware of it (put it out there in the internet land) and could be charged with obstruction or worse, depending on what she does with the gun. Chances of being charged are slim, but it could certainly make your life difficult and expensive defending yourself.

Response by SGT Steve Oakes made Mar 2 at 2016 6:44 PM

2016-03-02T18:44:53-05:00

Thanks again to everyone for the responses. Good news, he did not know she was a felon at the time. when he found out he started trying to get it back. I talked with him told him what the lawyer said and he is going to report the situation to the Police.

Response by SFC Maury Gonzalez made Mar 2 at 2016 8:02 PM

2016-03-02T20:02:32-05:00

It's a felony in most states, if and when she shoots her ex, your team member will be liable also

Response by MSgt David Heil made Mar 2 at 2016 9:07 PM

2016-03-02T21:07:44-05:00

There has been a lot of discussion on the legal aspects of this question. I'm not a lawyer but have worked in the area for years. My take? It depends.

In my opinion you have a moral obligation to see to it this weapon is not in the hands of a person ineligible to have it. This became your responsibility when your team member told you of the situation. It is not a comfortable position you are in but it is important to make sure someone is not hurt by this weapon.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2016 9:20 AM

2016-03-03T09:20:25-05:00

You are not his Priest, Doctor, Lawyer, or wife. You are under NO constitutional or statutory obligation to remain silent. You haven't said what kind of crime. FBI Part I felony, I'd be dropping that dime now!!!

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Mar 3 at 2016 4:35 PM

2016-03-03T16:35:54-05:00

YES! Do not let this guy give people another reason to try and take our rights away.

Response by SPC David Lynch made Mar 3 at 2016 4:44 PM

2016-03-03T16:44:15-05:00

You need to turn him into CID before you get into trouble. It's a straw purchase which within itself is a min 10 years in prison. If you know about it then you could be looking at time as well unless you turn them in.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2016 5:05 PM

2016-03-03T17:05:52-05:00

1) Did he buy her the gun knowing she was a felon?
2) Does he have text messages/emails/some proof that he is actively requesting the fire arm back from her?
3) Definitely tell him to talk to a lawyer ASAP.

Response by SGT Mathew Husen made Mar 3 at 2016 5:32 PM

2016-03-03T17:32:23-05:00

Yes turn him in! You are his leader, it is not your duty to risk your career to cover up his BS. Your soldier broke the law and should be made example of. The example your setting for your Soldiers is they can do what they want and you will clean the mess

Response by CPT Jeff Reichardt made Mar 3 at 2016 7:38 PM

2016-03-03T19:38:12-05:00

If you have first hand knowledge of a crime and you don't report it, you can be charged as an accessory after the fact.

Response by MSgt Mike Ruikka made Mar 5 at 2016 11:17 AM

2016-03-05T11:17:27-05:00

I believe you need to convince him to report it to the chain of command. Barring that, if he doesn't, you SHOULD! There are too many questions that would come your way that could, potentially, ruin your career!