Should Corporals be excluded from detail and "smoke" soldiers?

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 08:21:09 -0400

There is a CPL in my company I've known for 4 years now, he came prior service from Marines after 2 tours to the Army Reserve. He's been a CPL for 2 years and thinks he's immune to detail and can issue everyone else a task without having to do anything himself. He's not a jerk about it, just honestly doesn't care or give a hoot.

I understand he is a Junior-NCO and outranks me to an extent as I'm a SPC. But I've got WLC and other classes under my belt and he failed WLC (push ups for APFT, otherwise he would have passed I'm sure), he's got deployment and a year more service than I, I've got leadership experience longer (I was his squad leader).

Is he capable of giving details to everyone and not having to do one himself? Also if he tells someone to drop (and they deserve to be) ought they to listen and be "smoked?"

ps we're Horizontal Engineer Reserves, no Active Duty here

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2014 9:50 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 21:50:02 -0400

No, CPL's shouldn't be excluded from details whether working or placed in charge of the detail. Regarding the above and his attitude, I recommend speaking to your Squad Leader about the issue.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2014 11:36 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 23:36:18 -0400

A CPL may have stripes but he's still a soldier and better yet, the "glorified private" with more responsibility. If this is the case, the you need to talk to your team leader [if that's not him] or your squad leader so that you can handle it at the lowest level.

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made Aug 4 at 2014 11:44 PM

SSgt Gregory Guina — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 23:44:31 -0400

This comes from being a Marine. Most Marine Cpls are not going to be getting very dirty when assigned to a detail. In the Marine Corps it is the Cpl that is in charge of the work detail. A Cpl should be a working supervisor but this is not always the case on work details where the Cpl is the senior member present.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Aug 5 at 2014 8:52 AM

SGT Ben Keen — Tue, 05 Aug 2014 08:52:15 -0400

Can you say "chip on your shoulder"? To me, from reading what you wrote, SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member , it sounds like this CPL has some sort of chip on his shoulder.

Keep in mind, a great leader will always lead from the front. A great leader will work along side his/her Soldiers and never ask them to do anything he/she isn't willing to do themselves. You want to ask Soldiers to rack the rocks, then pick up a rack with them. Set the example, take the high road. Talk to your Section Leader. Use your NCO Support Channel to help resolve the issue. The last thing you want to do is sink to the CPL's level.

Response by SSG Gary Decker made Aug 5 at 2014 10:55 AM

SSG Gary Decker — Tue, 05 Aug 2014 10:55:01 -0400

One of my favorite stories:
During the Revolutionary War, there was a Corporal that was in charge of a group of soldiers and their task was to build a tall rampart of logs. To complete this task, the Corporal would yell at his soldiers to get the job done without providing any physical labor himself. The soldiers pushed all they could, but lacked the man power to lift the logs into place, but the Corporal would not let up and kept yelling at them.
There was another soldier off in the distance that ran up to assist his brothers and finally gets the logs into place. Before the soldiers could thank him, he asked to the Corporal why he didn't help. The Corporal told him, “I am a Corporal!”
The soldier opened up his coat revealing his uniform, “The next time you have a log too heavy for your men to lift, send for me!”, said General Washington

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2014 4:35 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Aug 2014 16:35:09 -0400

A lot of things don't add up here. CPL is usually reserved for the top performing SPC who is promotable and in line to be promoted to SGT. If this guy failed WLC, and is unable to pass a pt test, he would have been stripped of his CPL stripes immediately.
To answer your question, the simple answer is no. SGT and SSG are not immune or excused from details, so a CPL wouldn't be either. In fact, my experience had been every single time there is a detail that required an NCO, the CPL got tagged. Bottom of the totem pole...

But, as far as being able to "smoke" you, I would say he does have the authority to administer corrective training. His rank ad position allow for him to lead ad manage his troops.

I'm just going to say that if this is typical of a reserve unit, with squad leaders in place, wearing CPL stripes, and are APFT AND NCOES failure...I'm glad in active duty. I've heard stories of the politics and the good old boy stuff running rampant in the reserves, and this sounds like one of those stories.

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Aug 5 at 2014 5:58 PM

MAJ Jim Woods — Tue, 05 Aug 2014 17:58:44 -0400

What SSG Decker said. Corporals should be doing detail like everyone else but could be used as a WORKING leader. No slackers wanted. When I was a Corporal, I had an E-5 Squad Leader that almost made me volunteer for VN before OCS. I got him back when he showed up in my unit as an E-6...... I was a Captain. Bwahahahaha! ;-)

Response by SSG Jeremy Siebenaller made Aug 5 at 2014 9:16 PM

SSG Jeremy Siebenaller — Tue, 05 Aug 2014 21:16:45 -0400

But based on your prospective...You're saying that there should be a different standard for Active/Reserves. Is it a dick move to act like he is "above the ranks" but at the same time, he IS in a junior NCO and expected to "take charge in the absence of leadership".
However, if HIS NCO isn't setting him straight and putting him "in-line"... then He's got not example from a "lead from the front" Squared away leader! In MY opinion and maybe because I was active in a squared away unit....if he had failed a PT test, and couple pass "pldc"... then he sure as hell wouldn't be a Cpl!!!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2014 12:10 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 00:10:37 -0400

Is he capable of giving details to everyone but himself...yes. If someone that he is supervising chooses to not listen can he give corrective training...yes. Does it make it right, no.
I've said it before and I'll say it many more times, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should and I'm guessing the guy is on a power trip. I've been caught doing work that I was told was beneath my rank...cleaning toilets, sweeping floors and doing KP. Why on earth would a SFC do these things? Simply because:
1. I since I get paid the same no matter what I do...stepping in and doing these things instead of pulling a junior soldier who is actively engaged makes sense.

2. When I ask my soldiers to do these things they don't complain because they know I've done it, seen me do it so they have no excuse not to do it.

3. Instead of corrective training when I do get the occasional grief I go and do it myself. Usually within minutes they kick me out of the way. I make my point that no one is above doing things by leading from the front. Do they get a counciling statement...if it's happened more than once yes. But truth be told I've only had to give one for it once.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2014 12:16 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 00:16:07 -0400

I've always had that philosophy of "If I wouldn't do it, I won't tell someone else to do it." That's something that I've heard repeated by many across RA and NG in my 8 years.

In the NG you don't even really see many Corporals outside of MP and Inf units. And those folks are holding TL positions. I really wish the Army would pick SPC or CPL and get rid of the other.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Aug 7 at 2014 5:04 PM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Thu, 07 Aug 2014 17:04:51 -0400

I was a a Corporal and was the company clerk* back in the mid 1960s. CPLs did not do fatigue details. They did do NCO*** details such as CQ, CPL of the Guard, etc. They were the Junior NCO and ranked above all SP.** Hope this helps.

*Company Clerks did not put themselves on DA 6s.
**We had only SP4, SP5 and SP6s. But the CPL
out ranked SP7 and SP8 and SP9, the latter two I
never saw any of.
***Some were busted Sergeants.

Response by CPL Jay Meloche made Aug 8 at 2014 3:47 PM

CPL Jay Meloche — Fri, 08 Aug 2014 15:47:34 -0400

Everyone has their own style of leading. Unfortunatly if you don't outrank him the only thing you can do is talk to his NCO about his leadership style. I found that the best way to lead as CPL is to lead by example. Otherwise the SPC's under you won't respect you

Response by SGT Alicia Brenneis made Aug 9 at 2014 2:20 PM

SGT Alicia Brenneis — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 14:20:13 -0400

I do not think any rank should be excluded from a detail. If you are tasked with a duty or detail your soldiers WILL see what you do or do not do. It sounds like this CPL needs a reality check.

As far as being able to "smoke" a soldier. In my first unit the rule of 10 applied for SPC and CPL. After 10 reps of the same exercise you got down with them. Depending on the senior NCO, you had to justify your actions after the fact. Why did he have to drop you and why did you drop him ?

I had one senior NCO that would make the junior soldier or the SPC/CPL publicly apologize to the platoon for whatever their wrong had been.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2014 5:01 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 17:01:15 -0400

We have a few Corporals in our company,but this is what I have told the one I have in my platoon: "Are you sure you want this responsibility? This job will be both hard and rewarding if you apply yourself. Hard because being part of the NCO Corp you will be expected to carry yourself as a NCO. You will cease hanging out with E-4 and below, because you can't lead Soldiers and party with them too. It's a bad situation that breeds miscommunication and confusion. We never ask a Soldier to do something we haven't done and will not do ourselves. Becoming an NCO doesn't mean we delegate the hardwork down it means we work shoulder to shoulder with our Soldiers till the mission is complete. And to play devil's advocate just because you didn't see it doesn't mean your NCOs haven't yoked this Corporal up and counseled him properly for failing an NCOES school. He very well maybe trying to save face in front of you and the Soldiers by attempting to take charge and still do what's expected of him until he's recommended to go back to complete WLC. If you disagree with his methods or they seem excessive then request to speak with him on it out of earshot of the Soldiers. If you think you can do better, go to the board if you haven't already and ask for more responsibility to distinguish yourself from the crowd. The key here is communication, until you voice your concerns to someone i.e Section Ldr or Plt Sgt who has a say, you'll just be grumbling with the crowd.

Response by SFC Nicolzie Russell made Aug 10 at 2014 3:26 AM

SFC Nicolzie Russell — Sun, 10 Aug 2014 03:26:53 -0400

No one is excluded from details lol.... but they should supervise soldiers during details as we (NCOs) all do... Should they smoke soldiers, YES... 9 times out of 10 they are probably your right man/woman and they have to lead when you are out of the net. I expect my (P) status SPC to drop soldiers within our shop, it has to start somewhere. If not, soldiers will not respect or understand the authority or position. At the same time building up that (P)SPC or CPL....We have to cut the cord and give our high-speeds the business, push them in the deep in (figuratively)..

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made Aug 14 at 2014 1:04 AM

SGT Suraj Dave — Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:04:19 -0400

You will have to deal with leaders like that in the military. Corporals are an anomaly. They are considered "NCO's" but they get counseling's instead of NCOER's

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Mar 27 at 2016 2:37 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sun, 27 Mar 2016 02:37:37 -0400

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member Hey SPC Montoya, what type of cheese do you like with your whine? Just be darn glad I'm not your PS and you come to me with this! Yea, he's got the hard strip, TIG/TIS, but there's also much about leadership he has no understanding about. If your PS is worth his salt, he probably already knows, and your PS probably doesn't consult you on how he trains his NCOs. There is no "I" in Team. You keep your nose to the grind stone. You do your job. You continue to work as a team. Develop your leadership skills. Amazingly enough things will right themselves.