Should charges be leveled at West Point Cadets who knowingly injured other Cadets in a Weaponized Pillow fight?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 23:02:51 -0400

The aftermath of this "pillow fight" left 30 injured, 2 medically removed, 3 broken arms, 1 broken leg, 1 broken neck, numerous with missing teeth and 24 concussions.

Cadets knowingly beat and seriously injured other Cadets in a yearly pillow fight event. The actions of those who weaponized (don't laugh) their pillows with the intent of harming other Cadets in the yearly fight are being investigated.
It's disturbing that this was observed by upper classmen and allowed to continue and that staff knew of it's occurrence and did not oversee or stop it from occurring. There is failure on multiple levels.
I'm sure it's seen as a right of passage at West Point but I can't get around the fact that they were intentionally seriously injuring their own comrades. It's obvious that the goal was to injure and be injured given the Upper classmen telling the plebs, to wear their body armor and kevlar helmets. If this had happened in a Unit, charges would be filed and heads would roll.

--
From: NY Times

For generations, freshmen cadets at the United States Military Academy have marked the end of a grueling summer of training with a huge nighttime pillow fight that is billed as a harmless way to blow off steam and build class spirit.

But this year the fight on the West Point, N.Y., campus turned bloody as some cadets swung pillowcases packed with hard objects, thought to be helmets, that split lips, broke at least one bone, dislocated shoulders and knocked cadets unconscious. The brawl at the publicly funded academy, where many of the Army’s top leaders are trained, left 30 cadets injured, including 24 with concussions, according to West Point.

In interviews, cadets who asked that their names not be used for fear of repercussions in West Point’s strictly controlled culture, said the fight had left one cadet with a broken leg and dislocated shoulders in others. One cadet was knocked unconscious and taken away in an ambulance and had not returned to school, they said. But a spokesman for the academy, Lt. Col. Christopher Kasker, said all cadets had returned to duty.

Though talk about the brawl on Aug. 20 had circulated on social media, West Point did not confirm it to The New York Times until Thursday.

Colonel Kasker said the annual fight is organized by first-year students as a way to build camaraderie after the summer program that prepares them for the rigors of plebe year.

Upperclassmen overseeing freshmen “allowed the spirit activity to occur out of the desire to enhance the spirit of the class,” Colonel Kasker said, adding that those upperclassmen took “mitigating measures” to prevent injury, including requiring cadets to wear helmets.

But video shows that many of the cadets did not wear helmets. Cadets said that in at least a few cases helmets became weapons stuffed into pillowcases.

“West Point applauds the cadets’ desire to build esprit and regrets the injuries to our cadets,” Colonel Kasker said. “We are conducting appropriate investigations into the causes of the injuries.”

So far no cadets have been punished, and the academy has no plans to end the annual tradition. Colonel Kasker said commanders were not available for comment on Friday.

Video of the fight posted online showed crowds of cadets, some wearing body armor as well as helmets, surging together in a central quad, their yells echoing off the stone walls of the surrounding barracks.

As the first-year cadets collided into a boil of white pillows, pummeling one another in the fading light, Army-issued glow sticks flew through the air and an impromptu cavalry of riders in laundry carts dashed in, cushions swinging. At one point, a smoke grenade appeared to go off.

Photos posted later on Twitter show plebes, as freshmen are called, with bloody faces and bloody pillows, and at least one person being loaded into an ambulance.

“My plebe was knocked unconscious and immediately began fighting when he came to,” an unnamed upperclassman, who was apparently observing from the sidelines, wrote on the social media forum Yik Yak. “I was so proud I could cry.”

As the battle continued, cadets clustered around at least two classmates who had fallen, apparently unable to get up. Others stumbled to a medical area set up beside the fracas.

“4 concussions, 1 broken leg, 2 broken arms, 1 dislocated shoulder, and several broken ribs. That’s one hell of a pillow fight. #USMA19,” one freshman posted on Twitter, echoing many who seemed to see the injuries as a point of pride.

As the scope of injuries became clear, cadets said in interviews, West Point staff members went door to door in the barracks giving quick concussion checks.

In interviews, cadets said they saw the fight as a chance to have fun after seven weeks of basic training in which they were not supposed to speak to one another. It was also a chance to show grit.

“If you don’t come back with a bloody nose,” a male first-year cadet said his upperclassman commander told him, “you didn’t try hard enough.”

West Point pillow fights have existed since at least 1897, according to testimony in a 1901 congressional inquiry on hazing at the school, but there have been no other reports over the decades of injury until recently.

In 2012, a cadet put a lockbox in a pillowcase, injuring others, and in response, the 2013 fight was canceled, cadets said.

Similar violence has occurred at the United States Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs during ceremonial warfare traditions in recent years.

During the first winter storm of the year, Air Force freshmen try to throw their cadet leaders into the snow. But in 2012 the snowball fight turned into a brawl, and 27 cadets were treated for concussions, cuts, broken bones and a bite wound.

The Air Force did not punish any cadets at the time, choosing to treat the episode as what a spokesman called “a teachable moment.”

West Point cadets had mixed reactions to the injuries this year. Some saw them as a rite of passage in a school known for being tough; others saw a lack of judgment and restraint.

“At first the body count, people were joking about it,” a female first-year cadet said. “My friends were really excited. And right after, when we learned how many people had gotten hurt, everyone felt totally hard-core. I know it looks weird from the outside, but it really bonds us.”

But when she saw a male cadet being loaded into an ambulance outside her dorm room, she began to have second thoughts.

“If you are an officer, you are supposed to make good decisions and follow the rules. You are supposed to mediate when everyone wants to go out and kill everyone,” she said. “The goal was to have fun, and it ended up some guys just chose to hurt people.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/05/us/at-west-point-annual-pillow-fight-becomes-weaponized.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=0

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Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Sep 4 at 2015 11:06 PM

Capt Seid Waddell — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 23:06:04 -0400

Is hazing still legal?

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Sep 4 at 2015 11:08 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 23:08:42 -0400

its not a smart move for a future officer and leader that's for sure

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2015 11:44 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 23:44:30 -0400

Many reasons make this unacceptable. One being that now they have risked causing medical disqualifications and service related injuries. Next is the fact that if the story was not about Academy cadets but enlisted troops, you can almost certainly bet that people would be getting Article 15's and possible summary court martial's for assault and battery. I would say some form of punishment needs to be handed out that the situation was allowed to get out of hand. Those who encouraged people getting hurt should probably be expelled from the academy. If they get away with it, then what kind toxic leadership crap will they bring into the fleet?

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Sep 5 at 2015 12:03 AM

Capt Richard I P. — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 00:03:00 -0400

Idiots doing idiot things, because they're idiots.

Response by PFC Robert Falk made Sep 5 at 2015 12:26 AM

PFC Robert Falk — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 00:26:43 -0400

If that is to be the next batch of officers then we are all in trouble. West Point used to stand for a lot of pride and honor I guess that has been removed.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Sep 5 at 2015 1:09 AM

Capt Mark Strobl — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 01:09:50 -0400

The latest casualty report lists 30 injured - 24 w/ concussions. Sounds like a tradition (end of Plebe Summer?) that has degenerated into a non-supervised melee. Should those who knowing "weaponized a pillow" (I never thought I'd ever say that) be expelled? No. Disciplined? Absolutely. There's a part of me that would throw out the "boys will be boys" defense. But, at the end of the day, they need to be made aware that a lapse in judgment has consequence. Find out who did what... and have 'em run windsprints 'til the last injured youngster has been restored to full duty & health. No reason to burn a career. This should be a learning point --especially for those about to be commissioned.

Response by SGT Robert Hawks made Sep 5 at 2015 1:38 AM

SGT Robert Hawks — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 01:38:39 -0400

Childish stupid mistake just because someone did it to you doesn't mean you should continue the tradition hazing is always bad.

Response by SGT Robert Hawks made Sep 5 at 2015 1:47 AM

SGT Robert Hawks — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 01:47:44 -0400

I can't quantify this adequately but I have to believe the answer is yes because I don't want believe otherwise.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Sep 5 at 2015 2:18 AM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 02:18:17 -0400

Obviously Hazing is still a problem.

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made Sep 5 at 2015 6:24 AM

MAJ Keira Brennan — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 06:24:00 -0400

Pillow fights at USMA? Women in Rangers? What's the army coming to??? Time for this ---> (BTW prosecute the dummie under UCMJ)

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Sep 5 at 2015 8:46 AM

Cpl Jeff N. — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 08:46:36 -0400

Pillow fights and West Point. Way to train them up. We may not be at the end of the supremacy of the US Military but perhaps we can see it from here.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 5 at 2015 9:24 AM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 09:24:22 -0400

General lack of safety and common sense.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 9:48 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 09:48:11 -0400

Charges should be filed against all responsible. Are these the people that you want as your future leaders?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 9:48 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 09:48:50 -0400

I thought that this was from the Duffelblog!

Response by CH (MAJ) Thomas Conner made Sep 5 at 2015 9:57 AM

CH (MAJ) Thomas Conner — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 09:57:59 -0400

Maybe it's time to stop the annual pillow fight! It's poor leadership that allows or encourages behavior that ends with people intentionally getting hurt!

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 11:05 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 11:05:28 -0400

Whoa

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Sep 5 at 2015 11:41 AM

COL Jon Thompson — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 11:41:30 -0400

They should be expelled from the Academy. There is no reason to intentionally hurt your peers.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 11:50 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 11:50:34 -0400

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 12:17 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 12:17:11 -0400

So it's perfectly fine for this happen at West Point, but if I give one of my troops blood wings after graduating Air Assault school, or the rank tap after a promotion I am guilty of Assault.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Sep 5 at 2015 12:21 PM

MCPO Roger Collins — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 12:21:13 -0400

Hmmm. Stop the harassment during CPO initiations, but OK to weaponize pillows and actually injure someone. More disconnect.

Response by PO1 Sojourner "Chancy" Phillips made Sep 5 at 2015 12:48 PM

PO1 Sojourner "Chancy" Phillips — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 12:48:30 -0400

This sentence says sooooo much. "It's disturbing that this was observed by upper classmen and allowed to continue and that staff knew of it's occurrence and did not oversee or stop it from occurring." This seems to go along with all of those horrible stories of bad things happening and those watching do nothing to intervene. There is a breakdown in our society when it comes to common sense and decency. West Point and all of our military academies are places we expect that to not be the case but it seems that the issue is even inside those walls. But are we really surprised? Sex scandals , murders, cheating, rape are just a few of the issues that have come up in the news related to our academies, our high schools, work places and homes in the last decade or so. It seems that we are devolving as a human beings. Becoming more violent, more cruel, less civilized and less empathetic as human beings. There does need to be punishment or the cadets and the staff but there needs to be something done to put civility and respect first. How is physically abusing the people who are supposed to have your back make sense and fun????

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 1:59 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 13:59:22 -0400

This incident exposes one of the more interesting dynamics at play in an environment so steeped in tradition and insular as the USMA. The article mentioned that this pillow fight was a part of Academy tradition going back as far as 1897. Think about that. Now consider the fact that unlike most colleges and universities, the vast majority of the faculty, staff, and administration at West Point are alumni themselves. This fosters an environment that is supportive of the continuation of the annual rituals and rites of passage that mark the phases of a Cadet's life at this institution, be it as seemingly trivial as this pillow fight should have been for Plebes, or as formal as the ring ceremony is for each incoming class of Firsties. The simple fact is, because everyone from top to bottom is so shrouded in the history and culture of the place, those looking from the outside are quick to presume that Academy Leadership either condoned the misconduct or turned a blind eye to it while it was going down. In reality, because this is an institution established to develop the Army's future leaders, many of these activities are planned and executed by these future Army Leaders, with requisite faculty and staff oversight. Trust is confidently placed in these Cadets knowing that they are guided by the USMA Code of Honor (I will not lie, steal or cheat...), The USMA Motto (Duty, Honor, Country), as well as the Army Values. With these checks in place, as well as with faculty supervision, we never hear about the vast majority of the events that occur at that majestic fortress on the Hudson. Until something goes wrong. We won't know what happened on this particular August night until the investigations are complete. However, we can speculate that somewhere along the line, Cadets in positions of leadership, good Cadets who had earned the trust and respect of their faculty, staff, and administrators, reverted back to that irresponsible kid that still lingers within them and decided to spike the proverbial punch bowl and make this the pillow fight to end all West Point pillow fights! In light of all of the carnage, and the many careers that will likely be destroyed or never even begun, sadly, this may indeed have been the pillow fight to end all pillow fights.

Response by SFC Jason Porter made Sep 5 at 2015 2:07 PM

SFC Jason Porter — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 14:07:16 -0400

This is uncalled for! Horrible for the Army!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 2:13 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 14:13:19 -0400

Damn right they should be punished. They made the whole institution look like a bunch of idiots.

The real crime here is who let a bunch of officers in the larval stage running around without any NCOs. There are leash laws you know.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 2:51 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 14:51:24 -0400

CPT Private RallyPoint Member absolutely there should be charges against those who intentionally "weaponized" their pillows with the intent to hurt other cadets. These are they kind of officers we DON'T need in our Army!

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 5 at 2015 3:52 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 15:52:31 -0400

"This...Is...Sparta!"

Response by SGT Scott Bell made Sep 5 at 2015 4:03 PM

SGT Scott Bell — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 16:03:56 -0400

yes

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 5 at 2015 4:20 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 16:20:24 -0400

I hope they get this under control before the USMA annual spelling contest commencement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPTA8HbdLjw

Spelling Contest

Tombestone

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Sep 5 at 2015 4:36 PM

SGT Michael Glenn — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 16:36:50 -0400

Damn !!!! talk about your Bugs bunny type humor going wrong!!!! We had a SGT that was always being a Pain. One day he made the mistake of entering our squad room and commence to start going off for no reason. The lights suddenly went out and you could hear mass amounts of punching, grunts scuffling and cries for someone to stop it! When the lights came back on the SGT lay on the floor bleeding and not a single person saw what had happened and thought that he had panicked and fallen while trying to get to the light switch. poor guy walked around the squad like he was walking on eggshells after that and his arrogance just seemed to disappear.

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Sep 5 at 2015 8:07 PM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 20:07:58 -0400

I think that lots of people need to go to jail. There is no excuse for such crap.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 8:20 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 20:20:09 -0400

The following comments and opinion are my own and my own only: they should not be seen as a reflection of the opinions or thoughts of West Point proper.

BLUF: Myself and every cadet I have spoken with wants those who injured their teammates to be expelled and face charges for their actions.

There are multiple issues with the stories as it has been reported in media. In addition, people have drawn erroneous conclusions about the whole event that lack evidence. While long, I hope people take the time to read this response since I am currently at West Point and participated in a pillow fight my plebe (freshman) year a few years ago.

1) The idea that we tell plebes to wear IBAs and ACHs because we expect them to get hurt ( connotation being we want them to get hurt as used by others or that that is the "point") is completely unfounded and insulting. We tell plebes to wear that gear because we understand history. Every year we work to mitigate risks associated with events. There have been many years without any serious incidents because we take precautions. Just imagine a mob of 1300 people swinging pillows around. You don't need solid objects in the pillows for there to be some risk of injury. That is why we tell them to wear protective gear: we are realists and want to keep the event safe.

2) Unfortunately, I do believe it possible that some upper class cadets made comments about "needing" to come back bloody or else you "didn't try". Toxic leadership ( by which I mean Cadets in leadership roles) does exist at the academy just as it exists in the military. It is not a pervasive problem by any means, but it does exist. Why don't we remove them? Most cadets have a congressional nomination to attend the academy: it's hard to kick people out by saying "they are a bad leader." How easy is it to kick people out of the military in general when they pass all of their fitness tests and are competent in their fields? I will be honest and say that I hate that aspect of the Academy... But it is real.

3) Contrary to what has been said in some articles, there was first aid available for cadets. Not only that, but upper class cadets did get involved when an injury occurred. When injuries occurred, we tried to identify how and then resolve that issue. We did not laugh it off or treat it like a joke.

4) Myself and the other cadets I have spoken with are all furious that a plebe intentionally hurt his/her peers. We all very strongly believe that they should be expelled and potentially face other actions. What they did was abhorrent and completely counter to what we have all tried to foster while at the academy. The pillow fight is supposed to be a fun event for plebes to unwind and relax during without upperclass cadets screaming at them.

I would write more, but I feel that it would not be beneficial at this point. I have read many of the comments and seen the overall opinion of cadets in general. I will say that I was a 13M in the Army for two years before I went to the Academy and that might affect my way of thinking. Regardless, do not be so quick condemn cadets for an event such as this when you rely upon flawed media stories.

Again: these thoughts and opinions are my own and do not reflect the thoughts and/or opinions of the Academy.

Response by SCPO Joshua I made Sep 5 at 2015 8:58 PM

SCPO Joshua I — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 20:58:27 -0400

Sounds like it's time to fire the entire USMA leadership and send a whole bunch of people to NJP or courts martial.

Response by SCPO Joshua I made Sep 5 at 2015 9:33 PM

SCPO Joshua I — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 21:33:30 -0400

Wrong thread.

Response by SCPO Joshua I made Sep 5 at 2015 9:41 PM

SCPO Joshua I — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 21:41:38 -0400

n/t -- this post was duplicated from another discussion.

Response by SPC David S. made Sep 5 at 2015 10:47 PM

SPC David S. — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 22:47:29 -0400

What better way to introduce combat than taking some kevlar in the kisser. Also Good to see CAV in the battle plan - However in all seriousness it sounds like some charges need to levied on the berserkers responsible for the injuries as they seem to have violated the ROE's on this one.

Response by LTC Donell Kelly made Sep 6 at 2015 2:45 AM

LTC Donell Kelly — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 02:45:55 -0400

Completely unacceptable that the staff knew, observed and allowed the assaults to be continued.
" " that the commanding officer/NCOIC still have their jobs at this moment.
" " that the medical conditions these assaults have caused were preventable.
" " that those who caused injuries and assaults are not currently in jail.

Response by TSgt Marco McDowell made Sep 6 at 2015 3:08 AM

TSgt Marco McDowell — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 03:08:23 -0400

I can't even fathom how the thought of placing solid object inside a pillow case crossed the minds of these guys or how the rest of the cadets stood around and let it continue. Someone could have been killed. It's worrisome that eventually these young men and women will eventually be responsible for the welfare of dozens to thousands of troops. I'm aware that most institutional traditions aren't designed for malice, but they do hurt. I got promoted to PFC and a Corporal actually drove one of my chevrons into my collar bone. Sucked having the Doc yank them out with pliers but I'm sure the Cpl didn't do it on purpose, it was something that was handed down and accepted. This, this was done with intent to injure or more. I had what most folks in my first platoon considered a conservative Platoon Sgt. He put the squadoosh on any hazing. Yeah, we called him soft until he explained to us that we all went through the ultimate rite of passage in boot camp. We all earned our Eagle,Globe and Anchor. What right did we have to torture someone to allow him into something he was already a part of. He reminded us how pissy we'd get if he had us doing push-ups on hot asphalt or digging machine gun pits with a MRE spoon. Made sense to me and I carried that bit of thinking with me through my career. I don't think they should stop it, but someone needs to at least check for foreign objects before continuing this.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2015 7:01 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 07:01:12 -0400

I see this as hazing. I think leaders should stop it. Or, inevitably, someone will be paralyzed or die from this "tradition." I'll bet they'll stop after that.

Response by CPT Walter Streck made Sep 6 at 2015 10:13 AM

CPT Walter Streck — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 10:13:04 -0400

THE CADETS THAT PUT HARMFUL OBJECTS THEIR PILLOWS SHOULD BE PUNISHED. ....BUT CONCEPT OF A PILLOW FIGHT IS WRONG AND SHOULD BE STOPPED. PUGIL STICKS AND THE PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT WOULD BE SAFER.

Response by CW4 Guy Butler made Sep 6 at 2015 3:19 PM

CW4 Guy Butler — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 15:19:31 -0400

There's always the obvious fix

Response by CW4 Guy Butler made Sep 6 at 2015 3:50 PM

CW4 Guy Butler — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 15:50:35 -0400

Heh. Reading this makes me wonder what cable news and the internet would have done with the 60s and 70s.

Response by CW4 Guy Butler made Sep 6 at 2015 4:32 PM

CW4 Guy Butler — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 16:32:01 -0400

Part of the blame goes to the 2005 bankruptcy reform that eliminated chapter 7 relief for student loans. There's a decent chance that it increased risky loans since the students couldn't get them discharged.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Sep 6 at 2015 5:40 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 17:40:33 -0400

Yes, for those who did weaponize their pillows -- there should be an investigation and punishment.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 6 at 2015 8:41 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 20:41:11 -0400

This has become mainstream, an investigation will follow, and punishment will be meted out.

Response by PO3 David Davis made Sep 6 at 2015 9:29 PM

PO3 David Davis — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 21:29:06 -0400

Yes disciplinary action should be taken.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Sep 6 at 2015 10:43 PM

SN Greg Wright — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 22:43:59 -0400

CPT Private RallyPoint Member Without doubt. Those aren't the kind of people I want leading the Army.

Response by MSG Clinton Huff made Sep 6 at 2015 11:20 PM

MSG Clinton Huff — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 23:20:26 -0400

Of course they should be charged and then kicked out of the academy.

Response by Sgt Kelli Mays made Sep 6 at 2015 11:33 PM

Sgt Kelli Mays — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 23:33:00 -0400

Yes! Absolutely! It REQUIRED that they were their helmets....not put them in the pillow cases and hit each other with them. ABSOLUTELY! and if this is how they handle their first year....MAYBE THEY SHOULD JUST ALL BE KICKED TO THE CURB....they have no business being in the military.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 4:39 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 04:39:01 -0400

This is what happens when kids can't have fist fights for fear of being expelled like in the old days. You get paranoid girly men who put bricks in their pillows to win a pillow fight.

Response by SSgt David Tedrow made Sep 7 at 2015 4:57 AM

SSgt David Tedrow — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 04:57:34 -0400

Yes, they should be held responsible and charged. This is conduct unbecoming an officer without a doubt.

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made Sep 7 at 2015 8:29 AM

CDR Michael Goldschmidt — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 08:29:16 -0400

Knowingly? YES! They're all under the UCMJ.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Sep 7 at 2015 8:59 AM

MSG Floyd Williams — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 08:59:01 -0400

How that old saying goes, "Boys will be boys"?

Response by MAJ David Vermillion made Sep 7 at 2015 9:03 AM

MAJ David Vermillion — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 09:03:13 -0400

This is absolutely ridiculous at West Point, people hurt because of some tradition. Shameful!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 10:48 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 10:48:09 -0400

Also charge those who did not stop it or encouraged it. They are not welcomed into the officer corps. Go find a job flipping burgers.

Response by SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA made Sep 7 at 2015 11:52 AM

SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 11:52:49 -0400

Amd hen they wonder why Cadets are not given the "proper respect"...just a bunch of college kids with uniforms.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 12:31 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 12:31:06 -0400

There are several inaccuracies with this article.
1. The plebes (freshmen) were not required to wear ACHs or IBAs. Some chose to because they thought it was cool.
2. Upperclassmen checked pillow cases to make sure only pillows were in them.
3. One kid allegedly took his ACH off and swung it. The academy is still investigating. Thy were not swinging ACHs in pillow cases.
4. Each company provided upperclassmen to observe and control the pillow fight. They stepped in when needed.
5. No smoke grenades went off.
6. 30 people were evaluated for injury. There were 24 minor concussions and a fractured cheekbone. No broken legs.
7. This article cited Yik Yak and Twitter

Response by SFC David Brunk made Sep 7 at 2015 12:32 PM

SFC David Brunk — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 12:32:26 -0400

First expell, then charge all those responsible. It shows such a lack of good judgement and leadership that I would NEVER trust the care and well being of my soldiers to them.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 12:33 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 12:33:46 -0400

Anybody who was putting dense, heavy objects into their pillow case doesn't have enough gray matter to be making command decisions and should be summarily dismissed. How stupid could they really be?

Response by LTC John Shaw made Sep 7 at 2015 1:03 PM

LTC John Shaw — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 13:03:20 -0400

Pillow Fight = Tailhook, both were/are stupid traditions! No excuses, this needs to stop.
This 'Tradition' is just a glorified 'blanket party', it is done, no more pillow fights at West Point.
Corps of Cadets, welcome to the Army! When you do something unlawful that injuries another you will face disciplinary action.
UCMJ charges need to be brought on the cadets, the upperclassmen who allowed and especially the officer 'leadership' that established the conditions for this Event.
I went through ROTC, so I am sure many West Point graduates will tell me I don't understand. Got it.
If my Army ROTC department allowed this type of event, I would expect it to be shut down.
People and institutions make mistakes, this one needs to be remedied and resolved.

Response by MSgt Bill Milligan made Sep 7 at 2015 2:03 PM

MSgt Bill Milligan — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 14:03:46 -0400

Yes and find out who the ring leaders were who set it up. Any upper classmen who are involved should be dismissed.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 7 at 2015 3:44 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 15:44:23 -0400

Yes as the commanders intent was esprit de corps, not to hurt or maim cadets.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 4:38 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 16:38:30 -0400

Okay, was there ever any doubt that the answer to this should be a resounding YES!!!!? ? ? ? ??????

Response by PO2 Jeffrey Sheibels made Sep 7 at 2015 5:57 PM

PO2 Jeffrey Sheibels — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 17:57:21 -0400

If they knew what was in those pillow cases. They should be kicked out and never allowed to serve in any branch.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Sep 7 at 2015 6:30 PM

LTC Bink Romanick — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 18:30:57 -0400

Yes charges of stupidity CPT Private RallyPoint Member

Response by SPC Luis Mendez made Sep 7 at 2015 7:45 PM

SPC Luis Mendez — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 19:45:14 -0400

Absolutely yes! Plus fines and even jail followed by expulsion.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 11:15 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 23:15:01 -0400

An appropriate investigation must be made; as I understand, it is taking place now. The results of that investigation would determine appropriate administrative, non-judicial, or judicial actions to be taken.

The service is full of rituals, ie. crossing the date line or equator, chiefs initiation, etc. I think the rituals themselves are good for morale, but only if conducted in a safe manner. This tradition, itself isn't the issue; it was not conducted safely. In any training or recreational activity, safety comes first; you do a risk assessment, you may have a few get hurt, but the risk assessment along with a some common sense and attention to safety minimizes those mishaps. 30 injuries clearly indicates an unsafe situation, if not even intentional assault. Putting heavy things in the pillows is not safe in my book. Intentional or not, this is not what I would not want to see out of a program that trains our future officers.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Sep 7 at 2015 11:17 PM

CPT Ahmed Faried — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 23:17:15 -0400

certainly conduct unbecoming.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 6:19 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 06:19:52 -0400

This explains so much about West Point officers.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 8:59 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 08:59:26 -0400

After reading some of the comments here, I'll admit that my own opinions on this may need revision. I particularly agree with those suggesting that a lack of supervision and maturity reflect poorly on the institution, and the Cadets. That said, I will humbly suggest (as a former Mid) that these incidents are not so much "new" as "better covered" in recent years. We had similar "traditions" at Annapolis that were alive and well as recently as 2000...though I don't recall the reported carnage detailed here that seems to approach insanity or stupidity (we knew better than to leave marks). I also recall that Company Officers and Senior Enlisted Advisers had a great deal more control in how they managed their companies, and many infractions of discipline were handled at the "lowest level".

Response by SGT William Howell made Sep 8 at 2015 9:51 AM

SGT William Howell — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:51:39 -0400

That crazy Duffleblog. I almost thought that these future leaders of the Army were just that stupid.

Response by SGT William Howell made Sep 8 at 2015 9:56 AM

SGT William Howell — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:56:00 -0400

They better not do anything to any of these guys! They did this with pillows! Can you imagine in a bayonet charge against the enemy? Now if we could get the football team to play like this we could finally beat Navy.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Sep 8 at 2015 10:12 AM

SSG Warren Swan — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 10:12:22 -0400

I'm going to defer to the SMA and his view on this. Much worse is in store for these LT's when they hit the land nav course or report in their first units.

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made Sep 8 at 2015 11:13 AM

PO3 Steven Sherrill — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 11:13:16 -0400

Traditions are one thing, this is sociopathic behavior at best, outright psychotic at worst. It does not seem like it was one student loading the pillow case to "get even" with another student. It appears from what I have read that this was an outright "how many can I take out" type of event. The sad thing is that if this is a well established tradition, it is going away. Traditions change over time, but to have a tradition taken away because someone took it beyond way too far is sad. I hope that they do file charges against the individuals responsible. Make an example out of them, and keep their tradition. Furthermore, these individuals would be the type of officers that get the people serving under them killed by their own selfish behaviors. They are not the kind of person that the Army needs leading soldiers in the field.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Sep 8 at 2015 11:14 AM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 11:14:26 -0400

This is just beyond unacceptable. A broken neck?!?!

Response by SFC Stephen King made Sep 8 at 2015 11:18 AM

SFC Stephen King — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 11:18:03 -0400

Given the severity of the injuries I would like see the punishments fit the crime. If a Enlisted Soldier in any branch had a pillow fight that resulted in injury what would their punishment be?

Response by SSgt Donnavon Smith made Sep 8 at 2015 11:20 AM

SSgt Donnavon Smith — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 11:20:20 -0400

I am just trying to imagine Eisenhower, Bradley and Patton in a pillowfight

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Sep 8 at 2015 1:03 PM

PO1 Glenn Boucher — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 13:03:22 -0400

This is the reason for these traditions to be banned.
Someone always thinks they have to one up what they went through and try to make it worse for the new people getting initiated
I know when I became an Honorable Shellback it was a bonding with those who had already achieved that status. It was all good natured and the worse thing that I recall happening is a few minor scrapes and bruises and that was due to crawling on the non-skid on the main deck and a bit of slipping and sliding on the messy decks.
This is supposed to be a bonding and welcoming time, not a beat down.
Those senior Academy students who were complicit in this should be kicked out of school and a tax lien placed on them for the cost of their education thus far and kept in place until the debt is paid.
I'm certain you are going to soon be hearing how these immature clowns are regretful and sorry that they allowed this to get out of hand and that no one was meant to be hurt. False remorse is nothing more than being embarrassed that you got caught.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 1:05 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 13:05:22 -0400

This is the dumbest tradition I have ever heard of. I think these cadets should foot the combined medical bills of this incident. The taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for all the senseless injuries that occurred. Let me guess, this will also show up on their medical files for service connected disability in the future..

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 8 at 2015 2:16 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 14:16:37 -0400

"They told me to" ended with 1LT William Calley.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Sep 8 at 2015 3:44 PM

COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 15:44:14 -0400

A few thoughts:
- This incident should be investigated via a 15-6.
- Based upon the findings of this investigation then appropriate actions should be taken to include but not limited to West Point cadre, upper classmen, and plebes who may have either been directly involved or observed and took no actions to stop.
- "Traditions" such as this will continue unless and until positive actions are taken to put an end to them.
- I do not recall this tradition when I was a plebe in 1988-1989.

Response by PO1 Javid Benson made Sep 8 at 2015 4:38 PM

PO1 Javid Benson — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 16:38:34 -0400

when you leave kids alone in the dark this is what happens

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 8 at 2015 5:48 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 17:48:05 -0400

That picture looks like me after my Spur Ride with 11th ACR. I also got pissed on low crawling through the mud pit under the tangle foot obstacle. Different times. Mucking the stables meant you left the stables COVERED in horse dookey. Of course if we all just handed us spurs, where would be the fun and camaraderie in that? I think I was the last generation to "go behind the woodshed" and slip on a bar of soap (even in the woods you have to be careful not to slip on a bar of soap). I survived. But common sense was always used. No concussions, no stitches, minor alcohol poisoning.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 5:56 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 17:56:27 -0400

And we are allowing these cadets to join our ranks - Are you kidding me?!?!?!?! Just think, I turned down an opportunity to attend this institution of higher learning. After basic training 1985, I think I would have beat the S**t out of my upper classmates for being stupid!

Response by SPC Andrew Griffin made Sep 8 at 2015 6:49 PM

SPC Andrew Griffin — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 18:49:43 -0400

Yes! And just for the Stupidity alone!

Response by 1SG Thomas Holliday made Sep 8 at 2015 10:28 PM

1SG Thomas Holliday — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 22:28:40 -0400

Hell yes! If those future officers had hazing like that in their commands they would want to court martial them to the fullest extent. Really setting an example!

Response by GySgt Moses Lozano made Sep 8 at 2015 10:51 PM

GySgt Moses Lozano — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 22:51:51 -0400

They are just getting ready to be great officers by unnecessarily throwing their weight around (NOT)! Just watch, nothing is going to happen and nobody will get in trouble and it will all get swept under the rug. If anything like this happened in enlisted bootcamp the heads would roll.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 4:50 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 04:50:09 -0400

There should absolutely be some people headed to the House after this Cluster F***. This is the kind of indiscipline that is completely unacceptable. There should be leadership and Cadets getting disciplined. These are supposedly going to be our leaders. West Point has some serious issues beyond this pillow fight. This is just a glimpse at possible deeper issues within the leadership influences and structure.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 12:24 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 12:24:04 -0400

Yes. If this happened at a public school anywhere else, this would be called hazing and the silly frat boys would be dismissed from JROTC and the Uni they attended.

Additionally;
http://www.salon.com/2015/01/05/lets_abolish_west_point_military_academies_serve_no_one_squander_millions_of_tax_dollars/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/09/15/service-academies-congressional-nominations-history/15660721/
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/09/opinion/nocera-the-military-prep-school-scam.html?_r=0

To save articles or get newsletters, alerts or recommendations – all free.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 2:33 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 14:33:54 -0400

Consequences are an absolute necessity. The extent is minimally; probationary and documented upon continuous review with remedial duties or immediate disenrollment.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Sep 9 at 2015 3:44 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 15:44:49 -0400

If you need to wear body armor and a helmet to a pillow fight, you might need to reexamine the way you conduct things. So hell yes!

Response by MSG Jerry O'Rourke made Sep 9 at 2015 5:41 PM

MSG Jerry O'Rourke — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 17:41:55 -0400

There is no room for this type of assault in any form of our military. A total investigation needs to be conducted, and those that are guilty need to be charged under the UCMJ, and dismissed from West Point. This is just another breakdown of the academy leadership, because experienced NCO'S would have conducted a total shakedown of this training event, and the equipment(pillow cases) being used. As trivial as it seems everyone needs to be held accountable. Leadership 101

Response by SPC Thomas Moosey made Sep 9 at 2015 7:29 PM

SPC Thomas Moosey — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 19:29:30 -0400

Totally unacceptable, heads should roll from the cadets through the staff!

Response by COL Charles Williams made Sep 9 at 2015 11:53 PM

COL Charles Williams — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 23:53:36 -0400

Yes! And the Cadre too.
http://www.havokjournal.com/nation/heres-what-really-happened-at-the-west-point-pillow-fight/

Here's What REALLY Happened At The West Point Pillow Fight

If you want to know what REALLY happened at the West Point pillow fight that the New York Times and others are talking so much about, read this article.

Response by CPT(P) David Thorp made Sep 10 at 2015 12:39 AM

CPT(P) David Thorp — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 00:39:02 -0400

An "Annual Pillow Fight"?? What kind of Mickey Mouse shit is this for an Army to be doing??

I can hear the Marines now..(because I was one)...."While the Army is off having pillow fights...."

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2015 9:55 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 09:55:21 -0400

First and foremost, I don't condone what happened. In any way. This is not the last time in this post I say it, but it got out of hand. However, for those not having attended USMA, you have to look at it a little differently. I did not attend, however, my Father did attend (class of '67) and he shared some insight into these incidents, along with informing me he had no recollection of pillow fights happening while he was there.

This is not the first time something like this has happened. Read this excerpt from The Long Gray Line starting on page 87. My Father was actually there for this . Tables stacked four or five high, broken arm, etc. etc. I imagine to the outside this all looks horrible. And this recent incident got out of hand. A broken neck is no laughing matter, and in the past the cadre knew when to stop something when it was time to stop.

However, for those that attend USMA, such as my father, its these things that they remember over all others. Again though, this current incident got out of hand and someone should have put a stop to it.

My Father shared with me a more detailed account of this incident. A mess hall cook broke his hand (or leg) slipping on butter. The stained glass in the mess hall was shattered when the canon toted into the hall went off.

https://books.google.com/books?id=g5F8ssmFdZsC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=west+point+1966+table+stacking&source=bl&ots=v9ULB80E0q&sig=CgqZfTs0x98Bk2Mm-2_pKNwULlU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAGoVChMIvYi6gM7sxwIVxYwNCh2t7gw7#v=onepage&q=west%20point%201966%20table%20stacking&f=false

The Long Gray Line

The first trade paperback edition of the New York Times best-seller about West Point's Class of 1966, by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Rick Atkinson.This is the story of the twenty-five-year adventure of the generation of officers who fought in Vietnam. With novelistic detail, Atkinson tells the story of West Point's Class of 1966 primarily through the experiences of three classmates and the women they loved--from the boisterous cadet...

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Sep 10 at 2015 10:07 AM

SSG Warren Swan — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 10:07:54 -0400

Naw. He authorized it so they're GTG.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Nov 12 at 2015 3:07 PM

PO1 Glenn Boucher — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:07:48 -0500

Absolutely they should be charged along with those in charge of this mess.
This is why these traditions are being phased out, because the current crop of people participating don't do it for the team building and bonding that its supposed to be doing.
Just like crossing the equator for the Navy has now turned into a steel beach picnic and being handed a certificate because too many people got carried away and instead of initiating they got out of hand and were beating their shipmates.

Response by PO1 Brian Carlson made Nov 12 at 2015 3:20 PM

PO1 Brian Carlson — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:20:34 -0500

Are these our future officers and leaders? God help the US Army.

Response by SPC Kenneth Koerperich made May 6 at 2016 4:08 AM

SPC Kenneth Koerperich — Fri, 06 May 2016 04:08:12 -0400

Yes. If I got a Art15 for a speeding ticket, then these putzes, who assaulted & hurt others, & are to be officers, need to be held to very high standards. This is unacceptable behavior. Fry their asses....

Response by PO1 Brian Carlson made May 12 at 2016 12:55 PM

PO1 Brian Carlson — Thu, 12 May 2016 12:55:18 -0400

This is total activity unbecoming of an Officer. True the Cadets are not officers yet, but with this kind of behavior, should they ever become officers? I am getting more disgusted everyday with the Officers and Senior enlisted. The women Cadets with the fists is just another example, along with the woman SFC wearing hair that is not up to standards.

Response by MSG Jerry O'Rourke made May 12 at 2016 8:28 PM

MSG Jerry O'Rourke — Thu, 12 May 2016 20:28:47 -0400

The whole chain of command should be removed and charged under the UCMJ. They all failed to provide leadership and oversight during this whole process. A operations order along with the proper risk assessments should have been in place. Also were is the Command and Control boots on ground during this event. A congressional board needs to look at the academy as a whole. I'm sure with some other recent racial problems with cadets from one ethic group making a racial gestures the 21st Century Leadership disgracing the long gray line!

Response by Pat McCracken made Oct 2 at 2016 10:34 PM

Pat McCracken — Sun, 02 Oct 2016 22:34:53 -0400

If this is the caliber of new soldiers, then God help us!! Not only should these cadets be dishonorably discharged from the academy and never be allowed to wear a military uniform! Those that allowed this to happen should also be discharged!

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Aug 14 at 2017 2:16 PM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Mon, 14 Aug 2017 14:16:17 -0400

This is no different than getting jumped into a street gang...plain and simple. We as military officers should be above this type of idiotic and stupid behavior. I am all for traditions like a pillow fight or something like that where no one gets seriously injured. We promised these kids moms and dads that for the next four years we were going to take them in and teach them how to be leaders and fight our nations wars...how the heck does stuffing a helmet or another hard object into pillow and beating your "teammate" with it accomplish that mission? It doesn't. I hold the senior cadets accountable but I also hold the leadership of the academy that knew about it accountable. They should be removed from their posts as well for letting it happen. Before they even get started you may have ended someone's career or dream of being an Army Officer. This is not acceptable to me at all.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Aug 14 at 2017 5:00 PM

SFC Jim Ruether — Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:00:21 -0400

These individuals with weaponized pillow cases having hard objects such as kevlars or other objects should be tried for assault and battery. I am sure many videos were made and exist even now.

Response by SSG David Antonelli made Aug 16 at 2017 11:59 AM

SSG David Antonelli — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 11:59:15 -0400

Simply speaking, these are bunch of kids that are suppose to be our next military leaders really! Yes, there should be charges brought against those that participated and honor violations charged to those that knew of this practice. Look at all these colleges having problems with the hazing and kids getting injured and in extreme cases killed. They aren't kids any more, grow up and be responsible. I never in my entire life thought of hazing as a right of passage for anything, that is a practice that needs to be eradicated before we lost more young folks those could of or might of been great leaders or contributors in our society. Damn shame really!!

Response by Maj John Bell made Aug 16 at 2017 6:01 PM

Maj John Bell — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 18:01:12 -0400

I will freely admit to some really stupid, but fun training events.

-Soccer with 40 men to a side and 11 balls on the field and sleeping bags in pillow cases as "bludgens." (I knew well enough to have NCO's inspect every pillow case.)

-Basket ball in swim fins and boxing gloves, (no punching - just makes ball handling difficult)

-Bull in the ring (bastardized sumo wrestling) with two squads in the ring at the start

-Ring Boss (6 ft circle, two Marines with Boxing gloves, mouth pieces, and padded headgear) 1st Marine with 2 minutes accumulated time with one or more feet in the ring wins

-Rope boss (2 Marines with boxing gloves, mouthpieces, and padded headgear boxing across a taught rope.

I had two broken fingers and one split lip in 4.5 years of combined command time.

The West Point incident is what happens when leaders forget they are military leaders, and start using subordinates for entertainment.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Nov 20 at 2017 12:03 PM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Mon, 20 Nov 2017 12:03:44 -0500

It would be one thing to have a pillow fight where only a pillow was used but putting hard objects then makes it an assault with a deadly weapon where there is an intent to harm. An activity like this where injuries are both expected and encouraged has no place anywhere ! If this is the type of judgement being taught to our future leaders I think We have a serious problem. also as Major Shaun S has pointed on this forum out this could result in medical disqualifications and service related injuries.
I did attend a Military Academy as a Cadet , Bordentown Military Institute in Bordentown, NJ to be exact and hazing NOT allowed anytime. At BMI anyone involved in a hazing incident would be dismissed from the Academy at once. The BMI leadership felt hazing made no contribution to anything and just opened all sorts of avenues for abuse. There also was no plebe system in the school but believe Me discipline and good order was strong, there were penalty tours for infractions, from as little as one hours in You free time to multiple hours for worse infractions. Late for formation was 1 hour, missing the formation 5 hours as an example. More serious violations could have in 20 hours or more and those were issued by special order by the Commandant of Cadets. . Room inspections, uniforms, weapon inspections could all result in penalty tours which were held on a paved area marching in at assigned hours in Your free time. You did learn but except for sore feet on Penalty Tours You were fine and You did learn, believe Me !

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Nov 20 at 2017 1:21 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Mon, 20 Nov 2017 13:21:49 -0500

Sounds like Fort Hunter Liggett circa 1982, Engineer verses Armor company on the quad. Lewd comments to a female engineer led to open ass whoopin operations emptying both barracks. MPs had a field day trying to figure out who was involved, who was an observer and who was just in the barracks.