Should chaplains provide humanist and other nontheist support?

2014-02-26T12:53:58-05:00

Go to basically any chaplain office and you'll find Bibles, Qu'rans, Books of Mormon, Hindu sutras. You'll see advertisements for various Christian services and Jewish services. Anyone who asks is referred to Buddhist, Muslim, or other Christians services on or off post. Presumably the chaplains are there for everyone. But most don't provide humanist pamphlets though such pamphlets are free and easy to obtain. They don't advertise humanist services even though they know humanists are in the unit. They don't tell people that if the troop wants it, then nontheist support including humanist is available. Often, they turn the person away or defer to non-chaplain resources. They don't restrict themselves to 'god' for suicide, marriage, family counseling, at least not officially. Should they be allowed to refuse advertising and referrals to troops with nontheistic beliefs and values? also see militaryatheists.org<div>edit: chaplains not chaplain...</div>

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2014 3:44 AM

2014-02-27T03:44:16-05:00

If its recognized by the DoD then the chaplains are obligated to provide support for it. If not, then they aren't required to.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 27 at 2014 7:43 AM

2014-02-27T07:43:30-05:00

Well, a chaplain without the deity is just a counselor. I think instead of relying on chaplains, we need to invest in bringing more certified licensed psychologists, psychiatrists, and counselors on board. When it comes to helping people, religion should not even be a variable. All people deserve help, not just those your faith likes.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2014 2:10 AM

2014-03-01T02:10:04-05:00

A little while back I had a long discussion about this with a room full of soldiers. Some agreed with me that the military should have Humanist/Counselors as a representative of the non-faith within the Chaplain Corps. The rest thought it to be nonsense and insisted that we could just go to mental health. I tried my best to explain that having someone who did not have a religious base, indigenous to our unit to offer guidance was important to Atheist/Non-religious people. We are all but forced to sit through prayers, emails and propaganda of theist beliefs. Most of won't even raise an eyebrow when this happens. Why must we remain an unrepresented minority?

Official attempts from more than qualified people to fill these roles and finally move towards equality have been literally laughed out of the room. I want to be clear and emphasize the fact, this isn't an attempt to stop religious expression or force others to feel spiritually oppressed. Nor is this any form of contention towards Christianity, Islam, Jedi etc. but a plea to feel represented and acknowledge the validity of our beliefs or lack there of.

Response by SSgt George Brown made Mar 1 at 2014 6:12 PM

2014-03-01T18:12:34-05:00

My questing CPT Torpy, for you is this, why are you wanting the pamphlets in the chapels? Is it because you really need to have a place to go to reflect on those pamphlets, or, you want to proselytize those who believe in God over to your persuasion?
Also, could you tell me why the many atheists I run into on forums and discussions have a tendency to accost those of us who CHOOSE to believe in God? Words such as idiot, stupid, and crazy and terms such as tribal deity, pretend friend, and sky god often accompany any discussion atheists have with believers. Do you think they are winning people over by being so abrasive? To me, it really seems that these are emotional assertions and tends to be immature debate tactics, what say you?

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2014 11:33 PM

2014-03-01T23:33:59-05:00

In short, yes. Take the focus off of atheists for a moment. What about all the people of no particular faith that are stumbling about trying to find their way? People looking for answers which resonate. It's discriminatory and cowardly to not provide the secular humanist point of view. Since Humanist chaplains are not being provided the least they could do is provide referrals to those seeking help. And I mean that literally. It's the LEAST they could do. It's basic customer service. "I'm sorry, we don't have what you're looking for here, but try these folks and if you're ever in the market for what we DO offer, please remember us fondly and come again."

Response by SPC Clifton Reed made Mar 2 at 2014 8:31 AM

2014-03-02T08:31:52-05:00

I find this discussion fascinating. Thank you Cpt. Trophy for a thought provoking discussion, way better than Facebook cat videos. It has been many years since I served, I don't recall this ever being an issue in an Army rebuilding itself after the Vietnam debacle.

From what I understand from reading this thread, Chaplains are required to provide spiritual guidance for all faiths. That's cool....it's consistent with the constitutional guarantee of freedom of religion (worship). However, what happens when a service member decides to worship fringe religions? For example: "I am a member of the temple of Apollo, my religion mandates I sacrifice goat livers". Or, "I worship Thor, we need more war to get me in Valhalla". "Could you please provide me with a Druid?", "There is a temple of women living under Mount Shasta who are the lost civilization of Lumaria, they are telepathically communicating with extra terrestrials and will revel themselves as the second coming of Christ soon".

The list is endless.

Is the DOD required to provide a Chaplain for any faith?

Response by SGT Jeremy Schlueter made Mar 2 at 2014 12:13 PM

2014-03-02T12:13:22-05:00

Sir, I align myself with much of what SSG Morgan and SSG Hasbun are saying. While spirituality is an important aspect of everyone's life, to some extent or another, this society seems to have fostered an over-reliance on others to nurture that spirituality. Especially in this age of information, why does anyone need to rely on a Chaplain or anyone else to further their beliefs? For example, I am a Taoist, and the Army does not even recognize my religion so there is no religious support for me at all. Yet I don't need support from the Army to learn, grow, and practice my religion. It is obvious that at a Battalion level counseling services are needed, behavioral health services are needed, religious support? Maybe not so much. If I have a problem and need to talk to someone I don't necessarily want my religion to even factor into the discussion, just as I'm not interested in their point of view from their religious standpoint. In short, why would I want someone who's religious beliefs are different or even contradictory to my own, trying to support me spiritually? Sounds like a dismal attempt at mediocre assistance to me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2014 12:23 PM

2014-03-02T12:23:41-05:00

Sir,

In my opinion, why do you want to go to someone for counseling if they
believe in something you don’t such as God? If they are providing you
non-chaplain resources wouldn’t you think that is the right thing to do? He
should be allowed to refuse advertising of non-theistic beliefs and values
because he is a hypocrite if he doesn’t. How would it sound if I believed in my
line of work as a recruiter for the Army for an example but I am advertising
out in public giving out Air force business cards? There job is to support
their religion and to support someone for something that goes against what he
is in the Military for doesn’t make since to me.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 1:51 PM

2014-03-05T13:51:03-05:00

Sure, sounds legit

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2014 4:43 PM

2014-03-08T16:43:09-05:00

Yes.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2014 1:50 AM

2014-04-26T01:50:28-04:00

I talk to our chaplain all the time - he's a great guy. And I've told him openly I don't believe in a god.

Response by PO3 David Packham made May 14 at 2014 12:26 PM

2014-05-14T12:26:26-04:00

I personally don't have a problem with it, but there may be those out there who do.

Response by SGT Leigh Barton made Jul 3 at 2014 3:00 PM

2014-07-03T15:00:48-04:00

I saw a post on face book with a picture of Christ under a tree telling his disciples to love one another. One disciple asked "What if he's gay?". Another asked "What if he worships another god?". Yet another asked "Or no god at all?". To which Christ replied "DID I STUTTER?". Religion is a social entity. It's supposed to help provide a guide for us in dealing with others. How can we deal with others if we don't know what deck they're dealing from? . To me the difference between the faithful and the athiest is that the athiest hasn't developed the ability to act on the evidence of their hearts, only their eyes. Sorry about the delay in the post , but I just found it

Response by Capt Jeff Quinn made Jul 9 at 2014 12:24 PM

2014-07-09T12:24:42-04:00

When I was in, the Chaplain Corps provided per their mission statement below. Nowhere in this statement or in their priorities or vision statement is there a basis for providing humanist or nontheist support. In my experience, if the SM had a personal problem that required some type of assistance (i.e. alcoholism, family issues affecting work, depression, etc.), I would find out about it through the chain of command and would personally direct them (or my platoon sergeant) to services where they could get help (i.e. if they wanted a Chaplain- they can go see the chaplain, check into treatment center, work with 1st Sgt on options to get the SM into counseling, etc.) In fact, the Chaplain Corps has been in the business of providing relligious (i.e. belief in a higher power) ministry since the early days of this country. To make the point, the second article of the Navy regulations of 1775 read: "The Commanders of the ships of the thirteen United Colonies, are to take care that "divine" service be performed twice a day on board, and a sermon preached on Sundays, unless bad weather or other extraordinary accidents prevent".

The mission of the Chaplain Corps is:

PROVIDE religious ministry and support to those of our own faith.
FACILITATE for all religious beliefs.
CARE for all Marines, Sailors and their family and friends.
ADVISE commanders to ensure the free exercise of religion.

Priorities
Promote ethical and moral behavior throughout the Sea Services.
Ensure religious ministry enhances current readiness.
Think strategically for future readiness.
Employ Reserve religious ministry assets more effectively.
Realign assets to improve religious ministry for operational forces.
Improve recruitment and retention.
Enhance external and internal communications.
Leverage technology to support the mission.

Hope this helps,

S/F
Jeff

Response by CW4 Juan Morales made Jul 19 at 2014 5:58 PM

2014-07-19T17:58:51-04:00

As you and I know first hand, Jason, the chaplaincy is struggling to wrap their heads around what humanists and atheists in their ranks mean. I like to believe that when someone says something they'll do it. But as we experienced with my DFGL designation and finding a place to have fellowship on post, words are wind.
It seems to me the chaplaincy is doing more blocking than learning, and in essence practically refusing to support between 10-20% of the force. Thankfully, along the way I've met some excellent people. We do a lot better job of taking care of ourselves (for now) than the chaplaincy has the ability to. I'd like to see some counselors and social workers make their way to the BN level, though. I think a couple of those, under the MSC branch would do wonders for resiliency at the operator level.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Jul 19 at 2014 6:06 PM

2014-07-19T18:06:55-04:00

I love the first part of your question "Go to basically any chaplain office and you'll find Bibles, Qu'rans, Books of Mormon, Hindu sutras. You'll see advertisements for various Christian services and Jewish services. Anyone who asks is referred to Buddhist, Muslim, or other Christians services on or off post." Make the Chaplain sound like a Travel Agent! I Love it. All the Good Chaplains that I knew were very Humanist in their approach but I can see that for the Atheist there is still some discomfort with the Trappings of Organized Religion. I don't know if there will ever be someone to cater to their needs but we can hope. Keep the Issue out there.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2014 1:44 PM

2014-07-23T13:44:23-04:00

A Chaplain, by definition, is a theist support. Nontheists get referred out to non-biased support elements for the same reason your mechanic would refer you to a contractor for home improvement advice: it is not their specialty. If you are looking for suicide support or the like, then Chaplains are a huge asset, but why would you want them to, quite literally, go against their entire belief structure to support someone who does not believe?

I do not go to the Chaplains in my area to discuss my Atheism, that's just trolling in the real world; however I did speak to my Chaplain when I was having a PTSD breakdown shortly after deployment, and the support I received was outstanding, with nary a mention of spirituality. The Chaplain took off his "man of god" hat and put on his "soldier support" hat, which is part of their mission to the troops.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jul 23 at 2014 2:04 PM

2014-07-23T14:04:05-04:00

To me a Chaplain is NOT a pastor/preacher. A pastor's job is to minster to his specific belief group along the lines of his religion's doctrine. That is not what a Chaplain or is supposed to do. While a Chaplain can certainly minister and/or preach (when appropriate), his real job is to provide moral, ethical and/or spiritual support for the solider based on what the SOLDIER feels is important. That suppoirt does not necessairly need to be grounded in a thiest frame of reference. If that means talking about God or doing a religious ritual, then great. If that means just being a non-judgemental ear that does not involve mentioning a diety at all, just as good. I have always seen the chaplain as someone who helps the soldier use the tools that the soldier has to cope with whatever issue may be troubling that soldier. And, if for whatever reason the Chaplain can't do it, he finds someone who can.

Response by Capt Jeff Quinn made Jul 23 at 2014 5:45 PM

2014-07-23T17:45:21-04:00

CPT Torpy- I see in the news that the humanists are working with chaplains across the military to educate them on how to have meaningful dialogue with humanist service members in the command. In parallel it looks like some efforts are being made by the humanists (at least from a group perspective) to work within the parameters and definitions of becoming a chaplain to have chaplain representation that meets the criteria (base credit hours needed at an approved seminary, etc.). Do you know any humanists that would be interested in trying to become chaplains and fill this void as you see it?

Response by MSG Wade Huffman made Jul 29 at 2014 6:55 AM

2014-07-29T06:55:09-04:00

This has been bantered around for quite a while, and there are a couple of other similar discussions on here as well. My thoughts? I, personally don't see a need for this. If an individual is an atheist, fine. I have no problem with it. If they are not comfortable speaking to a Chaplain, then there are many other sources to receive counseling through the military and through Military One Source. At a time when the forces are drawing down, this would be counterproductive and a duplication of services.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2014 7:20 AM

2014-07-29T07:20:16-04:00

The problem to me is that the Army doesn't use Chaplains as Chaplains. They use them more as counselors and confidants. Personally, I would rather see a non-religious Officer with real counseling/social work credentials (I know some have this, but most don't) in the current Chaplain role (as members of units at the BN+ level and deploy with the unit) and Chaplains focused on conducting religious services and providing religious experiences for those desiring same. They should be assigned to the installation, not units, including those overseas and in combat zones (which would alleviate shortages and allow better access for Soldiers looking for a specific religious experience).

This would solve dozens of problems (take a look at the thread about CH's not wanting to allow same-sex couples to participate in Strong Bonds). I have been told by two separate CHs that my problems would be solved if I would be willing to accept Jesus as my savior - I'm Jewish; they are telling me my problems are because I'm a Jew, and this passes for support and counseling? How? Why should Soldiers be cut off from support because they do not share the religious beliefs of their assigned Chaplain?

I agree with the intent of the lawsuit, but disagree that a non-religious person should hold the title, "Chaplain."

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2014 7:57 AM

2014-07-29T07:57:08-04:00

I typed several things here.... but they all seemed like I was trying to argue on the Internet... which is something I try not to do!

I will settle with saying this is a classic example of the misunderstanding many people have regarding Atheists and Atheism. Nothing I say here will change that.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2014 10:35 AM

2014-07-29T10:35:04-04:00

From Dictionary.com on the definition of religion:

1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

Response by CPT Richard Riley made Jul 29 at 2014 11:32 AM

2014-07-29T11:32:13-04:00

Any definition of 'chaplain' or 'clergy' you look up has a direct connection between religious practices and serving your fellow man, (man is used in this case to embrace human beings). To define atheism - it is a conviction that there is no God or supreme being. It's like the oil and water theory ... it's difficult to mix them and try as you might they refuse to stay mixed.
One side embraces a higher power and supreme being, the other is convinced that higher power does not exist. It will never be just a simple disagreement or lighthearted conversation.
I tend to believe that Chaplains are rooted in one version or another of a particular religion that they embrace en mass. Some are reasonably good at being able to step away from their given religion and council accordingly, some are not. This issue is only a part of the bigger problem. As CPT Private RallyPoint Member stated earlier personally having one belief and engaging a Chaplain with a different set of beliefs most often does not work out well for either party. The solution will not be easy or quick in coming but hopefully will resolve in the best way possible for all concerned.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2014 12:30 PM

2014-07-29T12:30:47-04:00

If you don't believe, that's fine. But, I should not have to cater to you and your beliefs. I try to respect your beliefs, all I ask is you respect mine

Response by PFC Jason Rodrigues made Jul 29 at 2014 1:49 PM

2014-07-29T13:49:37-04:00

I personally am an Atheist. While I was stationed at Ft. Benning I did not go to my unit's Chaplin. One night I was out at a bar in Columbus, GA and ran into a soldier (we all know that we can spot another soldier in civilian clothes) who was drinking and smoking a cigar, we got to talking. Eventually it came to the topic of MOS, he told me that he was a Chaplin, I was of course shocked to find a Chaplin drinking and smoking cigars, he then told me that he was Irish Catholic and had much more relaxed views on what is and isn't allowed in the clergy. He and I became pretty good friends and I found that I began talking to him about some of my problems. Never did he try to convert me, never did he give me advice that was based on religion, he was just a great drinking buddy that gave good sound advice and counsel.

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made Jul 29 at 2014 3:05 PM

2014-07-29T15:05:36-04:00

Atheist and Chaplin - the entire concept is not even worth talking about. I know that some people are uncomfortable going to a a religions person for advice, but if you call it a duck, you expect it to quack. Is the collar device going to be a cross in a circle with a line thru it? Or a star of David, Crescent? If more Chaplains acted as counselors and not convertors, maybe there would not be a call for Atheist Chaplains. (Isn't that an oxymoron?)

There are so many sources of counseling available on Ships, Stations and Units that it is laughable to consider using a Chaplin billet for one more for asset. As a Shipmate, Chief, Career Counselor, LPO (NCO), and CMC, I have often found myself in the role of counselor to juniors, peers, and seniors. I know most of you have also.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2014 8:38 PM

2014-07-29T20:38:47-04:00

I agree that such a nonreligious chaplain service should be available, I'm just not sure how it would work. The great thing about organized religions is that they are, well, organized. They have books and a generally accepted set of values that Army Chaplains can study and use to provide those chaplain services.

Humanism could be one approach for a nontheistic chaplain, but what about all the nontheists who don't adhere to the tenets of humanism? It just seems like one of those things that sounds like a great concept, but wouldn't work well in implementation.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2014 7:11 AM

2014-11-04T07:11:20-05:00

SGT Michaël-Joseph Forand, that's an interesting article. An atheist religion ... who'd a thunk it? I'm all for the rights of these folks. It's interesting that they're on par with and being classified as a "religion." As the article says, "But while some Humanists may chafe at being called a 'religion,' others feel that the larger pursuit of equal rights trumps legal classifications."

It will be interesting to see if the military follows this lead and has atheist/humanist chaplains.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2014 8:06 AM

2014-11-04T08:06:41-05:00

The belief that there is no God, and that things happen based on laws of chemistry and physics, seems to me just a plausible a "religion" as the belief that some divine being orchestrated everything. Both is an explanation of the universe and life.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2014 8:11 AM

2014-11-04T08:11:30-05:00

Well these individuals will just get their dog tags faster then anyone else.

Response by MAJ Dallas D. made Nov 4 at 2014 8:12 AM

2014-11-04T08:12:13-05:00

Interesting and I am sure this is the way we are moving towards.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Nov 4 at 2014 8:14 AM

2014-11-04T08:14:45-05:00

This is great news to me. Now we can begin fighting against the Secular Humanist establishment in the Federal Government. The miniority should not be able to strong arm the majority.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2014 8:36 AM

2014-11-04T08:36:25-05:00

Satire or not, it seems the Chaplain Corps is really branching out these days...

http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/10/navy-chaplain-death-cultist/

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2014 10:49 AM

2014-11-04T10:49:03-05:00

About time.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2014 3:25 PM

2014-11-04T15:25:37-05:00

Personally...it doesn't matter to me who you pray to or don't. If you feel the need for a "humanist" chaplain to make you feel better - go for it.

We are a country that allows for all sorts of religious beliefs - adding one more to the menagerie is not going to bring the country to it's knees. We've got more important things to worry about than getting all twisted up over someone that wants a "humanist" chaplain.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2014 3:41 PM

2014-11-04T15:41:59-05:00

Trying to disprove God on the basis of the Standard Model of Physics makes you not much of a scientist. It is more rather an agenda! You can or cannot prove either way. Grow a pair and avoid what you do not like. Now, was it really that hard?

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Nov 4 at 2014 4:28 PM

2014-11-04T16:28:34-05:00

Hellz yeah... oh, wait, the humanists don't believe in hell... or heaven... wait, can they still do last rites? I mean they still are chaplains right? They can do that for the Christians and Catholics as part of Chaplaincy...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2014 5:22 PM

2014-11-04T17:22:50-05:00

I am a science guy and think there is no need, but if one were to apply... they should not be rejected. The reason is you cannot speak of "freedom" if people do not allow it. Most people will laugh or mock it, but you have to remember they are a growing minority.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2014 10:28 PM

2014-11-05T22:28:34-05:00

I have met many, many chaplains in my career. Most have been outstanding. They acknowledged my lack of belief and were still there to offer guidance. Most have never judged me. They were professional, empathetic, wonderful human beings.
Humanism, to me, isn't a religion. Humanism is a philosophy. I'm an example of this. I'm an atheist, meaning I don't believe in a supernatural god, an outside creator. But I'm Humanistic in my life-view. I believe that human beings are the origins of their destinies.
Buddhism is similar. It's more of a philosophy than a religion. I'd support a Buddhist chaplain just as I'd support a Humanist chaplain. I guess that would be the closest I have to a "dream" job with the military (barring Cavalry).
The fact is, many soldiers have had negative experiences with traditional Chaplains. There is still a stigma. As a younger soldier, I felt that I couldn't consult a chaplain because he would attempt to judge me or "convert me". (And I have had this happen exactly once.)
I understand the need for Humanist chaplains. Someone non-religious may not feel comfortable pouring their heart out because the thought will be in the back of their minds: "Am I being judged? Am I lacking? Is my heartache a symptom of not having a god in my life? Is this guy, after all my professions, going to conclude that the I'm evil and simply need Jesus?"
If Humanists chaplains can provide purpose, direction, and motivation, then let's invite them. If that is all it takes to provide comfort and reason, outside of religion, why not? The idea of Humanist chaplaincy is no threat to anyone holding religious belief. If someone says it is, I would wonder why.

Response by SSG Philip Evans made Nov 5 at 2014 10:42 PM

2014-11-05T22:42:37-05:00

The military has always had humanist chaplains. At least military chaplains are supposed to be humanists to some extent. Remember...chaplains are first supposed to be supporting the morale and welfare of the troops. Religion is only part of the job. Though I was not a "Chaplain", I was an ordained minister for many years of my military career. I served in Naval Special Warfare in "Riverine Warfare" and in the Army as a Ranger in Air Assault. I was always available as a "Pastoral Care Minister" for troops, along with my regular duty functions. What I found from Vietnam to the modern era has been that "Chaplains" are constrained by their particular denominations to not cross denomination lines by any great amount. What this means is that people of other denominations, religions, or belief systems have many times been left out of religious support in the field when they need it most! Since much of my religious studies has been in the area of "comparative religion", I have been quite successful in "filling in" in the field providing for support for "other religions". I have yet to find a member of the "Chaplain Corps" that has ever complained of my support. I did not want to become an "official" chaplain, because then, I too, would be much more limited in whom I could help.

Rev. Philip E. Evans, C.J.

Response by LCDR Timothy Gordish made Nov 12 at 2014 12:55 PM

2014-11-12T12:55:14-05:00

Since the courts rightly find that "Secular Humanism" is a religion, it would follow that there could be "Secular Humanist" chaplains after there are secular humanist congregations, who have secular humanist clergy who are specifically ordained to perform secular humanist sacred acts. If a religious organization doesn't endorse a chaplain then they cannot serve. Where are the congregations and religious establishments of secular humanists to endorse such chaplains, and to supervise their orthodoxy? When a secular humanist begins to pray to God who will tell them to stop their false doctrine?

As far as ceremonial prayers offered at military ceremonies, they are necessary just to teach and distinguish that the Government, the military, or the CO is not the source of all power and authority. Who is the source of all power and authority for a secular humanist?

Response by SPC John Cardwell made Nov 13 at 2014 1:46 PM

2014-11-13T13:46:24-05:00

My personal opinion. Hell no. There is nothing humanist about them. It's marketing slapped on an ideology that is ultimately self serving. Honestly, what would they do? What are they going to tell me if I'm mortally wounded? "Sorry person, looks like you were just Darwined the fuck out."

Also, what if the Humanists are wrong? What if there is a God? They just helped send a bunch of people to hell who had a chance to repent. On the other hand if a Chaplain that believes in God tells a humanist to repent and they don't, what are they worried for? If tehy don't believe it shouldn't be offensive. It's like someone telling them about Santa. I don't get offended when someone tells me about Santa.

We have nothing to lose by not having Humanist 'chaplains' and everything to lose by having them.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2014 2:54 PM

2014-11-13T14:54:50-05:00

there is no need for Chaplains to serve in any more capacity than what they already do. If Humanists want to meet and discuss their philosophy or ideology with each other they don't need a representative to give them guidance. If they are seeking counseling for something, every single chaplain in the military can give them counseling and advice without trying to persuade them into a religion.

Response by SGT Stephan Jennings made Nov 13 at 2014 3:34 PM

2014-11-13T15:34:12-05:00

In my opinion, if a person doesn't believe in God or any gods, why would they need a chaplain in the first place? Secondly, religion is a faith based practice, no matter how you look at it, you have to believe in something or someone to practice any religion. So, if Humanism is now a declared religion, how do you practice to not believe?

Response by SSG John Erny made Nov 13 at 2014 6:22 PM

2014-11-13T18:22:36-05:00

If it can save a soldier, save a life then yes. Chances are you know some one who did not get the help they needed. I know I do.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2014 6:35 PM

2014-11-13T18:35:42-05:00

"There are already atheist and agnostic and humanist chaplains in the military. They are endorsed by various liberal Protestant denominations. I've known a number of them over the years. " @CH (MAJ) William Cork in post "Should chaplains provide humanist and other nontheist support?" by CPT Jason Torpy, Washington, DC

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Nov 13 at 2014 6:57 PM

2014-11-13T18:57:19-05:00

My question is, Chaplins need the proper education to qualify...where does one get a Doctor/Master of Non-Divinity?

Response by LCpl Steve Wininger made Nov 13 at 2014 10:26 PM

2014-11-13T22:26:26-05:00

They already have them... they are called secular psychologists, therapists, and counselors.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2014 12:38 AM

2014-11-14T00:38:02-05:00

When a religious believer encounters challenges that shake his perception of the world, he relies on a Chaplain to help him restore order. The problem is that you can be of any religion or none and go through such a crisis, it's helpful to have someone there to help you make sense of it all. If your Protestant or Catholic, odds are you'll get that assistance... if your Humanist or a member of a minority religion like Wicca your probably going to have to endure a Chaplain trying to convert you to their faith.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2014 11:12 AM

2014-11-15T11:12:02-05:00

Chaplain and humanist is an oxymoron.

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Nov 15 at 2014 12:59 PM

2014-11-15T12:59:59-05:00

The idea reminds me of a work by George Orwell from 1946, an essay titled "Why I Write". In it he discusses that one of the 4 reasons is that no work is truly apolitical and he concludes it by stating that "the opinion that art should have nothing to do with politics is itself a political attitude." If we were to apply the same thinking that even the rejection of religion is in some ways it's own religion, then an atheists who subscribes to a humanist beliefs is involved in a secular religion. I have discussed the idea with a devoutly atheist friend of mine that you can believe in Jesus and his teachings and yet still be an atheists if you follow the philosophy and teachings of Jesus as a historical figure. Since there is a bit of a difference between adopting a philosophy and being a part of a religion. You can adopt a Christian philosophy, without subscribing to a specific religion. I am a Catholic, but I have a bit of a Zen philosophy. So if having a Chaplain would give an atheist support I'm all for it.

Response by SGT Anthony Rossi made Apr 26 at 2015 1:18 AM

2015-04-26T01:18:58-04:00

Not if they don't believe in it. Why does the military try to turn a Chaplin into a psychologist?