Should Army officers be required to obtain Specialist before being allowed to commission?

PVT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:33:54 -0400

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 10:40 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:40:24 -0400

No, not at all. I do not see what that would accomplish.

Response by SGT Laura Delgadillo made Jun 17 at 2016 10:41 PM

SGT Laura Delgadillo — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:41:04 -0400

"To lead you must first learn to follow"

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 10:49 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:49:54 -0400

I can see where you are going with this question and my honest answer is no. There are three different rank and grade structures for a reason. Your point is to allow for an Officer to have some experience as a junior enlisted Soldier before they can expect to lead those very same Soldiers. If this were the case then I'd rather have the Officer be required to have some Platoon SGT time or at least obtain the rank of SSG. I don't know very many Specialist who are anywhere near ready becoming successful NCO's right away let alone becoming an Officer after only being an SPC. Development is the key. Soldiers receive that from their NCO's and their PME. Officers recieve their development from their NCO's, the 1SG/Commander, MAJs, Battalion Commanders and up the chain and this continues throughout their entire career. Find me a successful Officer and I'll show you a SSG or above that has mentored and developed that Officer and probably continues to do so to this day.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Jun 17 at 2016 10:51 PM

LTC Stephen C. — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:51:19 -0400

There are many different paths to becoming a commissioned officer, PVT Private RallyPoint Member. I went to OCS, so I enlisted and was a specialist (then specialist four) and even sergeant prior to commissioning. However, I do not believe it necessary in the least.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2016 11:12 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:12:02 -0400

I've seen mustangs make great officers, while similarly I've seen mustangs make horrible officers. Likewise with JROTC and DC officers. It's a certain mentality, mustangs who can't get out of the enlisted mindset or ROTC/DC can't get out of the holier than thou officer mindset. It's up to the individual officer to learn from and treat their NCOs with respect and use them as mentors while still maintaining command. I've seen officers allow their PSG to walk all over them and I've seen officers completely ignore than 10-15 years of experience.

Response by SPC James Harsh made Jun 17 at 2016 11:20 PM

SPC James Harsh — Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:20:15 -0400

Is it a prerequisite to have a degree when becoming an Officer. That would be an automatic Spc

Response by SN Greg Wright made Jun 18 at 2016 12:02 AM

SN Greg Wright — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 00:02:48 -0400

I don't see any benefit from waiting for them to be e-4's, but I think that boot camp together could be beneficial. In the SEALs, officers go through precisely the same training, side by side, with enlisted, and it seems to work out well for them.

Response by SPC Joshua Dawson made Jun 18 at 2016 12:12 AM

SPC Joshua Dawson — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 00:12:45 -0400

They should have to do something at the very least. Maybe it wouldn't matter to officers that don't ever do anything but when they are in charge of say a combat platoon and are put in that position straight out of officer training then yes they should have something more than that.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 12:17 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 00:17:47 -0400

My two cents is this: While it would be nice that all Officers spend time on the enlisted side before they see those Butter Bars......so they know how the other side of that fence lives......there would be less Officers, I think.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 1:27 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 01:27:19 -0400

With a college degree they make specialist anyway, how about if they had to make at least SGT E5 and graduate ALC

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 1:30 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 01:30:50 -0400

Exactly what would be the benefit? Sounds like a useless requirement.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 4:02 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 04:02:39 -0400

This question always comes up and the answer is always no.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 4:25 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 04:25:13 -0400

I do not believe the need is for experience as an enlisted soldier but the need is for better training of junior officers in humility, and the removal of toxic mid level officers that teach their new juniors to ignore their NCOs. I've seen it happen too many times. At the same time there needs to be ncopd for staff and senior NCOs on how to mentor and train these fresh junior officers. NCOs need to stop telling them to go sit in the corner and color. At the end of the day it's going to be that young lt with his butt on the line.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 4:31 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 04:31:05 -0400

I've heard the argument in the past, "Prior-enlisted officer would make better officers." But I don't see it. What I do see is that there are good officers and there are bad officers. Prior enlistment does not seem to be the "silver bullet" to good officership.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 8:31 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 08:31:23 -0400

That is why we have Warrant Officers. The best the Army has to offer IMO.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Jun 18 at 2016 11:49 AM

SFC Joseph Weber — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 11:49:14 -0400

What qualification for specialist is tougher than any qualification for a service academy or ROTC?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 12:32 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 12:32:23 -0400

I did just that! basic training/AIT going in as a 31 year old E4/Specialist. After that I was the Platoon Leader's driver. I already had a College degree and I went through OCS. I went from enlisted to Officer. Military Police both times. I joined after being unemployed and it was a hobby at first. Now, 22 years later, I am about to finish ILE and I have been in Armor and Civil Affairs. I am not ashamed about being enlisted and I did my share of guard duty and KP.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 12:33 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 12:33:48 -0400

No, putting them through the junior enlisted ranks just to throw them into the officer role would do even more harm. You are subjecting them to the enlisted way of doing things without any leadership responsibilities. We have Officers and NCOs for various reasons. That would be like making everyone join the conventional forces before going special forces. Yes, that does happen, but only because recruiting through the 18X program is not enough. Until we cannot recruit enough Officers with current methods then it should remain the same way.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 1:53 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 13:53:00 -0400

This topic comes up fairly often on this site. I was an instructor for a unit that taught Cadets during Warrior Forge. LDAC (Leadership Development Assessment Course)

I have had the chance to work with thousands of Cadets, some were prior service, but most were not. While the prior service folks often had a slight advantage because they already knew some of the basics of the subjects that we were teaching, I did not see any evidence that this prior knowledge necessarily translated to good leadership.

That is what Officer training programs are all about: leadership training. It can be short term, concentrated training such as OCS, or though longer college programs where they get their degree while gaining exposure to the military during weekends and summer training programs. Leadership skills take time and experience to develop, and programs that focus on that are more likely to mold and refine that skill. Just advancing though the junior ranks to Specialist does not always mean that leadership skills are there. Most of those early advancements are automatic anyway.

Another problem with being the rank of Specialist before selection: With college credits, new recruits can enlist at E3 or E4. By your proposal, these soldiers will have minimal army time, most of it TRADOC, before being eligible to compete for Officer Candidate selection. How is this better then 4 years of leadership training woven into their education as done in ROTC?

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jun 18 at 2016 2:43 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 14:43:23 -0400

ROTC and military academy's require a significant amount of training throughout their time in college During my 30+ years I served with many officers and never had an issue with their training level as a 2d Lieutenant. Admittedly their are some who are weaker than others but so are many enlisted Soldiers.

Response by SGT Paul Mackay made Jun 18 at 2016 4:40 PM

SGT Paul Mackay — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 16:40:17 -0400

yes

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 9:01 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 21:01:33 -0400

I have to agree with this on all fronts. As enlisted, we all recognize immediately the officers who are mustangs. That's because they have an understanding and appreciation for what the low level enlisted does. Officers without prior enlisted experience, well honestly they get a bit too big for their britches sometimes and treat those beneath them like shit unnecessarily. I also think that it helps build comradery and unit cohesion when you can actually trust your higher ups.

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Jun 19 at 2016 5:28 PM

CPT Joseph K Murdock — Sun, 19 Jun 2016 17:28:40 -0400

Is there a problem?

Response by SGT Randel Pruett made Jun 20 at 2016 1:40 PM

SGT Randel Pruett — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:40:54 -0400

During the 70's and 80's I had the opportunity to work with two types of Officers. Those that took the time to learn how a Platoon works and functions and those that didn't. Guess which one was better?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2016 2:22 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:22:21 -0400

It all depends. However, I am glad I had enlisted experience to provide balance to some to of the "by-the-regs" non-sense.

Response by CW3 Kim B. made Jun 20 at 2016 2:23 PM

CW3 Kim B. — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:23:23 -0400

No. I have seen enough green to gold Soldiers become Officers that I know it is character that makes a good Officer, NCO, or Enlisted Soldier. Experience counts somewhat, but not enough to implement this kind of requirement.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2016 2:35 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:35:37 -0400

I think all Officers should attend BCT at a minimum. There they would learn basic drill and ceremony, discipline, and customs and courtesies. ROTC requires their upperclassmen to teach these skills, which often results in a poor end result.

However, I don't think SPC is the magic rank to create an Officer. Possibly the worst 2LT I've ever served with was a mustang with 3 years in service. He never left the SPC mentality. He was first in the chow line and often in bed while his NCOs prepared for the mission ahead. I also served with a 2LT who was a prior E5(P) with a CAB who was pulled off our deployment for his utter incompetence.

Now if you wanted to make the case for more rigorous Officer selection and training I would be all for it. ROTC doesn't even do individual land navigation anymore.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2016 2:46 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:46:24 -0400

Much like the other individuals here I feel making the rank of specialist will not make a difference in the slightest. Having made it to SFC and acting 1SG I can say that the experience definitely helped me become a better leader and more prepared to be an officer (the leadership roles more than anything), but I still listen to to my PSG and allow NCOs to handle NCO business. I would say that time as a PSG would help officers, but that would obviously be a waste of time and resources. Good officers will listen to their NCOs and Soldiers and time as an enlisted individual might not necessarily help an individual learn to listen to their Soldiers. Again much like others have pointed out, there will be good officers and bad officers and no amount of time as enlisted may help that.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2016 2:53 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:53:02 -0400

The rank system is based in an old world caste system where laymen made up the enlisted "caste" and wealthy noblemen made up the officers. While it has some relevance, it is primary based on socioeconomic priviledge rather than ability.

Response by COL R. Bruce Chisholm made Jun 21 at 2016 9:18 AM

COL R. Bruce Chisholm — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:18:40 -0400

1SG Weeks told CPL Chisholm (me) to go to OCS so I wouldn't screw up the NCO Corps. Before commissioning, All officers should receive a No Pay Due once-- to understand what it is like.

Response by CPT John Sheridan made Jun 21 at 2016 10:10 AM

CPT John Sheridan — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:10:42 -0400

I was a mustang, but I don't think so. Anecdotally, I didn't see prior enlisted officers as any better in terms of performance or career attainment. A couple of exceptions:

1) Prior enlisted frequently perform better at Advanced Camp, achieving a higher score, thereby becoming more likely to be tendered a Regular Army commission or Active Duty position, if that is what they want.

2) Prior enlisted generally exhibit more confidence for the first couple of months in their first troop unit assignment as a 2LT.

I could be wrong.

A significant portion of ROTC Cadets are prior enlisted. All cadets go to Advanced Camp between their third and fourth year. Many are in a simultaneous membership program, serving as leaders in USAR/ARNG units. Cadets who start ROTC beyond the first year attend ROTC Basic Camp, similar to basic training. Many cadets participate in CTLT, where they spend a month in an active duty troop unit. Some attend Army schools, like Airborne. So, very few get commissioned without having significant exposure.

Response by SGT Jason Sandoval made Jun 21 at 2016 10:30 AM

SGT Jason Sandoval — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:30:29 -0400

Yes, all training is important. I think that 50% of them are afraid to go to basic training. ROTC is a eaisier way to get into the military. I am in ROTC right now and there are a lot of cadets there that I will not trust with a pen. These are the men and women that will become leaders but they don't even know how to tie their boots nor pack a ruck. They cry when they got to get dirty and they do not know how to wear the uniform or patches right. Its sad. I'm in it to learn. Its hard to learn when your learning from your peers that read content or watch a movie on training. They need the HOOAH DRILL SEARGENTS. This will break them and rebuild them to a leader.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2016 10:58 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:58:25 -0400

There are minimum requirements for a reason. If the Army wasn't producing good officers, they would find another method. All officers have at least 12 weeks of leadership training (OBC/BOLC etc) before they lead troops on their own. They are then mentored by good enlisted Soldiers and senior officers to make mistakes and learn the same way you will as you progress through the ranks.

Response by LTC Ian Murdoch made Jun 21 at 2016 12:39 PM

LTC Ian Murdoch — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:39:16 -0400

No. I was enlisted and went to OCS as a SGT. All OCS candidates have taken basic training already, whether they enlisted straight into OCS or came up through the ranks. USMA and ROTC both provide the same skill training as basic training. There have been a lot of great officers without enlisted experience, just as there are great officers commissioned through all commissioning sources with prior service.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2016 1:17 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:17:36 -0400

While I do wish I had enlisted before commissioning I don't believe it should be a requirement. I have known several prior enlisted Lieutenants and Captains. Some used their experience to great effect and I believe they were better leaders for it. Other couldn't turn off the NCO mindset and it hurt their leadership. The difference between the duties and responsibilities of an Officer and an Enlisted Soldier are so extreme I believe it would generally interfere with the development of quality Officers.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Jun 21 at 2016 8:51 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 20:51:45 -0400

Good suggestion but impossible cause the academies will be opposed, however boot camp is good.

Response by SFC Michael Houlihan made Jun 22 at 2016 8:43 AM

SFC Michael Houlihan — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 08:43:26 -0400

My question is should a Specialist care about what officers do or don't do to get promoted? NCO's train, mentor and advise officers at all levels so focus on becoming a NCO that way you can make a difference in the officer corps.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2016 10:14 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:14:45 -0400

No requirement needed. A bad officer will not last anyway. I saw plenty cut and run once mission gets tough. Many are good students, but army officers must have high emotional intelligence and grit. Learning to get what others want will be one first step.

Response by SPC Christopher Perrien made Jun 22 at 2016 10:34 AM

SPC Christopher Perrien — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:34:47 -0400

Yes , all officers should have to finish at least 2years active enlisted. And no no BS national guard either. Just about every good officer I ever met or worked with was a mustang and had received their commission while enlisted. . I can only recall 3 "good" ones that were not (2 Academy, 1 ROTC). Saw a lot of garbage come out of ROTC/Reserve, and particularly guard . And the West Pointers, of the 4 I knew , 2 were acceptable, and the two were not (one, I was responsible for removing from command for dangerous actions. The Best were all Mustangs.

Now these were all line command officers, I can't comment much on the tech officers, the warrants, as that is not what is being asked, but I don't think enlisted service would be necessary for them or beneficial to the army to require.

Yea, 2 years active enlisted would get rid of a lot of the rejects that come through ROTC/Reserve that had/have no business being leaders. The army doesn't always remove these sorts in a timely manner, and I have seen some pretty bad duds make it to Lt.Colonel and even a couple to Generals (1 academy, 1 Guard)

I never met a "bad" Mustang officer.

Response by SFC Michael Peterson made Jun 22 at 2016 11:28 AM

SFC Michael Peterson — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 11:28:34 -0400

Bravo! You just singlehandedly managed to cause countless pairs of panties into a bunch. Personally, I like the German Army's method. Officer Candidates in the Bundeswher must serve in every rank from Private up through Platoon Sergeant before they become an Officer. There "promotions" are accelerated but, they must work their way up, nonetheless.

Response by SPC John Lebiecki made Jun 22 at 2016 1:50 PM

SPC John Lebiecki — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:50:11 -0400

No, BUT they need to go through BCT to learn about being a soldier. I think the concept of the Munghadai (SP) that has Battalion / Brigade commands running their LTs through the wringer is also a great refresher.

Response by SPC James Gehringer made Jun 22 at 2016 2:29 PM

SPC James Gehringer — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 14:29:12 -0400

it would show they know how to properly take orders and follw instructions before giving such orders, furthermore it would give them the proper respect for their NCOs and what is like to be an EM

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2016 4:23 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Jun 2016 04:23:22 -0400

So we should take a four year process and extend it to six years because being a Specialist is absolutely critical to the National Defense Strategy?

Response by SPC Chris Bain made Jun 25 at 2016 12:16 AM

SPC Chris Bain — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 00:16:04 -0400

The best school out there is the school of hard knocks. The best officers I ever knew were prior enlisted.

Response by CPT Bruce Beattie made Jun 28 at 2016 8:16 PM

CPT Bruce Beattie — Tue, 28 Jun 2016 20:16:27 -0400

As an ROTC cadet I was enlisted as a private in the reserves while participating in the program. Every cadet is. Between my 3rd and 4th years I attended summer camp at Ft Devens, Ma for 9 weeks. Coincidently, this was the same time as was allotted for BCT. Every task covered in BCT was covered in ROTC summer camp. Including KP and the myriad of other unpleasant tasks that are assigned to today's Soldiers in Training. I had the pleasure of being assigned to USATC Infantry, Ft Campbell, Ky after Armor Officer Basic at Ft Knox. The troops at Ft Campbell received almost the identical training as the ROTC cadets so ROTC Cadets do have the equivalent of Army Basic. Branch specific training began after entry onto active duty. After Vietnam I became a BCT Company Commander as a Captain. There was very little difference between the training provided to my troops and that I had received a an ROTC Cadet. The measure of the officer is the measure of the person, not the source of their commission!

Response by CPO Byron Sargent made Jun 29 at 2016 11:56 AM

CPO Byron Sargent — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 11:56:32 -0400

The way I understand it through my Granddaughter who is a college graduate. She enlisted as an E-4 Specialist because of her College so she would have met the E-4 qualification prior to attending OCS anyway.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2016 6:36 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Jul 2016 18:36:34 -0400

Well, they kind of already are. For those that go OCS at least. They enter as SPCs and go through Basic Training before OCS. And ROTC is 4 years of training if you're not prior service, not to mention the couple of weeks at LDAC. I'd say that's just as competent as anyone whose been to BCT.

Response by SPC Kirk Gilles made Jul 5 at 2016 4:10 AM

SPC Kirk Gilles — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 04:10:02 -0400

Active duty time/guard time plus 4 year degree equals 30 year old 2LTs? Let them learn from their NCOs.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2016 7:34 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 07:34:23 -0400

In my opinion. Cadets should enlist and drill with their nearest ARNG unit in order to get experience and formulate their leadership styles.
However, Basic Training may not be feasible for them to attend because they have a mandatory summer training at knox every summer that takes precedence and is a requirement for commissioning.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2016 11:26 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 11:26:54 -0400

Required, no. Should a soldier who wishes to be a good leader consider getting enlisted experience first. Yes. I am in Ocs now and feel my enlisted experience was worth the delay in becoming an officer. There is also a small pay incentive for enlisted service prior to commissioning, which I believe is appropriate considering the experience difference.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2016 11:54 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 23:54:14 -0400

I think that's a great idea.

Response by SPC Ray Hicks made Oct 21 at 2016 6:57 PM

SPC Ray Hicks — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 18:57:07 -0400

Before going into basic training ,while in High school and during the height of the war in Vietnam. I attended military testing thru a Recruiter to avoid being drafted which then (1968) was an automatic 2 year hitch active duty assignment into 11 bravo (infantry ie: grunt,ground pounder jungle/bush bunny hence most likely to be the first boy on your block to come home in a box/bag). OR you can run into the fire and volunteer rather than ending up being volun... told . Which offers some choices . Choices , those mainly which offer training in fields which can lead to a military career or upon separation a position in the civilian sector possibly with credit for military "time served" for retirement . I chose the later. I realized my high school education would not be enough and that I was already attending several local Junior colleges simultaneously on my own dime San DIEGO city/community, Southwestern and Mesa. Knowing my dime won't go very far at this rate. So college would have to wait in the back seat for now. Also , the military (U.S. Army) offered what they called "GI Bill" a program which by enlisting for 3 yrs active duty you will receive training in the field of your choice...providing you first qualify both physically and by test score. "what have I got to loose? I asked myself . My first hurdle ,tests so while in high I chose a fiel with my recruiters guidance . not much was offered to simple high school grads . I wantede more . but there was one program that caught my attention : Warrant Officers Helicopter flight training WOC . but there seemed to be many obstacles to clear first . I cast my bet I took the bait ..deal me in . miraculously, I passed all the written barrage and there were many . High school was winding down the war was ratcheting up . With each passing day combat seems a looming growing specter before me . Little did I know the hardest part was having to "break the news" to my parents especially my dad a 31 year retired U.S. Navy WWII (sailor) vet who just happened to be a control type personality with a penchant to alcohol . Needless to say it didn't settle well when he used his usual line for the last time : "NOT while your under my roof" It did not end well . instead of maybe for once just once , I would receive praise and support ...instead I experienced combat before even on the battlefield and with the most unlikely foe . Beaten battered and bloody I left out the front door victorious as the sound of my mothers laments and my dads last words on the matter: "get my gun, I'll kill the SOB " some send off huh? For me there was no turning back . It seems during basic was an endless ordeal of training and testing . testing and training One test struck me as unusual . Everyone one that fails have to leave the room and stand outside in formation. those that pass remain seated and faced another test. Three days later I was still going strong ? Knowing my new found brothers in arms were standing outside with nothing to do but stand ,smoke or go to the latrine. I purpodely failed to put an end to this . Finally I survived the hell known as "basic training". While in basic there were NFL superstars such as Art Shell then of Green Bay. was doing his "time" as a Nat'l Guard ( just months) others were rotcees as they were called by the cadre of Drill instructors. Yet others were CO's ... Conscience Objectors , we even had young men facing prison sentences for any number of crimes given the choice serve over that of prison ? also some were immigrants who opted to serve their new adopted country thus pledging their allegiance. Very much unlike those overpaid NFL or sports gods who get paid millions for "taking a knee" during our National Anthem . We ALL raised our right hand , we ALL ,signed that "blank check" not knowing what that future might hold . It was not until my very last day in Vietnam . My last new company commander noticed what they should have known and told me all along . that I have been fully qualified for OCS ..after being lied to and pushed around and never being promoted for three years enough is enough . I told the full bird CC sitting across from me exactly what they can do with this final last ditch offer to permanently tie the noose around this poor enlisted mans neck.We dispensed with our final formalities (salutes) I did an about face walked out his door...never to look back ,although I sometimes regret that decision, but not much . Now I believe as my dad always said :"shake hands with the man pushing the broom on your way up the ladder , for you may very well have to hold the dust pan on the way down . Only exception to this was a person I met later in life was a roommate who was given...Given a commission right out of high school a Gary Clapper, whose field of expertise was so unique and his being a prodigy who had books I couldn't even pronounce the title of. But I believe every person in uniform should be required to shoot,march salute even KP duty. before wearing the bars or stars. for the military life is a family in and of itself. No one should lead if they can't follow. ,no exceptions, no exemptions . The best soldiers make the best officers

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made Oct 21 at 2016 10:27 PM

MAJ Keira Brennan — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 22:27:39 -0400

I enlisted as a PVT E1 and made it to E5 before going the ROTC route. BCT is to indoctrinate civilians into the noble service of arms. Teamwork, cohesion, discipline. Not teach leadership per se. But to teach development. When I got to ROTC Advance Camp there were loads of former AD/NG E3s and E4s. So they knew how to make a bunk and drive a buffet. That isn't leadership. OF COURSE there's the former E5s and toung Combat Arms soldiers who knew leadership 101. They were the EXCEPTION. IMO ROTC is sipposef to be teaching young men and women initiative and drive. And HOW TO LISTEN and assess. Sure, the culture says prior service officers are best. It gives you a leg up in the culture. Mandatory. No way.

Response by 1SG James Nelson made Jul 24 at 2017 4:32 AM

1SG James Nelson — Mon, 24 Jul 2017 04:32:48 -0400

Absolutely.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2017 8:19 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Jul 2017 08:19:39 -0400

All officers need to serve in the ranks to truely understand how to lead them. The best officers I ever had were enlisted prior to switching over.

Response by SGT Joe Thrasher made Jul 26 at 2017 10:47 PM

SGT Joe Thrasher — Wed, 26 Jul 2017 22:47:26 -0400

Yes best officers I ever served under were Broncos. One the won a series of Army wide boards and went to West Point.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2017 9:28 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Jul 2017 09:28:43 -0400

No, because that wouldn't produce nearly enough officers, besides the officers produced would be 4-5 years older at minimum and would be eligible to retire at the 15-16 years of commissioned service. Many would be too physically worn down to reach the highest ranks. This would have many unintended consequences that would be ultimately self defeating. It sounds like the officers that prompted this question are more jerks than anything else. It doesn't require being enlisted to look out for the interests of enlisted soldiers

Response by SGT Sydney Phillips made Jul 28 at 2017 10:10 AM

SGT Sydney Phillips — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 10:10:25 -0400

I've served with several very good jr. Officers from rotc and 90 day wonders.. the best rotc were from Texas A&M and SW tx state. The very best young officers were those who went from enlisted to officer. The more time as en!isted (sp4 or Sgt) the better.

Response by SPC Ray Hicks made Jul 28 at 2017 12:17 PM

SPC Ray Hicks — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 12:17:18 -0400

The last thing we need is a bunch of cupcake college preppies being given commissions straight out of college absolutely clueless to military realities .

Response by Jason Mimiaga made Aug 8 at 2017 7:44 AM

Jason Mimiaga — Tue, 08 Aug 2017 07:44:05 -0400

I've always felt that leaders should at least understand the people they are leading. At the very least, officers should spend SOME time in the trenches with their subordinates. That's what makes the Navy so unique - officers and enlisted serve side by side.

Response by CPT Michael Dixon made Aug 19 at 2017 6:19 PM

CPT Michael Dixon — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 18:19:11 -0400

I enlisted and went to ROTC prior to commisioning. Made it to E-5. Point above is that there are good officers and bad. Prior enlisted may help but is not the silver bullet and roles & responsibilities are elevated as well as leadership

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2017 8:57 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 20:57:50 -0400

This again. I see great plans to make a new Soldier into an NCO, but they don't work one iota for making officers. Different skill sets. We have a pretty good system right now. As with the enlisted and NCO ranks, it's still far too difficult to get rid of the bad ones. Fix that and we'll really be moving.

Response by CSM Andrew Perrault made Aug 19 at 2017 10:55 PM

CSM Andrew Perrault — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 22:55:37 -0400

No, 2LT has an XO and a Commander to help him/her, but most important the NCO's in the unit. The NCO is the backbone of the unit and they train Soldiers including officers.

Response by SGT David Petree made Aug 20 at 2017 11:27 AM

SGT David Petree — Sun, 20 Aug 2017 11:27:10 -0400

NO Most officers that made it from enlisted to officer in a war were always a SSG or higher. New TWO.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2017 11:08 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Aug 2017 23:08:22 -0400

Being prior enlisted can certainly help one become a good officer but I do not believe it should be required. I do however, believe NCOs are crucial at OCS, West Point, and ROTC so they can determine if a candidate has a true heart to be in charge of Soldiers. Officer commissioning programs give NCOs and even junior enlisted Soldiers the opportunity to vote on a prospective candidate.

Response by MAJ Richard Cheek made Aug 24 at 2017 6:25 PM

MAJ Richard Cheek — Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:25:04 -0400

I was an e7 before becoming an officer. Although the majority of my NCOs and soldiers would vouch me as a good officer. It was tough being a 38 year old major and competing with young west pointers.

Response by SSG Ricky Johnson made Aug 29 at 2017 11:17 PM

SSG Ricky Johnson — Tue, 29 Aug 2017 23:17:42 -0400

I've seen 2LT out of ROTC that would not listen, knew everything. Did not work out well. I know an enlisted guy that was commissioned, retired as a COL, that was a leader, sought advice, and was one of the finest officers I ever worked for or with, in my 11+ years active or 24+ years as a DAC. I have also served with ROTC officers that really had their stuff together. My bottom line is, should a system be changed because of a few yoyos? The system is not perfect, I also know a couple OCS graduates that were worse. Wouldn't listen to anyone.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2017 8:32 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Sep 2017 20:32:44 -0400

I believe those that want to be Officers should have to make it to Sergeant before being commissioned. So they understand what it's like to be a Soldier first.

Response by SGT Jeff Fronk made Oct 9 at 2017 12:45 PM

SGT Jeff Fronk — Mon, 09 Oct 2017 12:45:28 -0400

ROTC Cadets should be required to drill at least in year 4 if not years 3 and 4. I think that would be a difficult requirement for Academy cadets due to availability of units and time. It would beneficial for OCS candidates to have served in a leadership position - CPL or SP4 team chief/leader. Since a promotion to E5 could take years due to points and or staffing that would be too much of a requirement .

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2018 7:30 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Jan 2018 19:30:12 -0500

I believe it would help there leadership abilities. It would show them the everyday life of a enlisted soldier. Soldiers would have more respect for the officers if they were made to do this. I know a lot of soldiers when I was in had some strong dislike for leadership because they make calls without understanding the full situation because they cannot relate to what is going on.

Response by SFC John Hatton made Feb 4 at 2018 11:18 AM

SFC John Hatton — Sun, 04 Feb 2018 11:18:10 -0500

No, SSG would be best unless the college degree fits the branch. Like Engeneering degree, engeering officer. Science degree, chemical officer. AG officer, HR degree. Medical Officers are pretty much already cover that and they seem to have the most intelligent officers. JAG officers seem to be the most useless but unfortunately lawyers are a necessary evil.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2018 2:13 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 02:13:36 -0500

Negative. Any rank can cross to officer and or WO as long they meet the requirements

Response by SSgt Thomas Phillips made Mar 25 at 2018 7:48 PM

SSgt Thomas Phillips — Sun, 25 Mar 2018 19:48:42 -0400

Not a requirement, no. I’ve known some mustang lieutenants that were worthless, just as I’ve seen some college kids turn out to be good officers.

Response by SSG Alan Pelletier made Aug 11 at 2018 9:04 PM

SSG Alan Pelletier — Sat, 11 Aug 2018 21:04:27 -0400

Nope

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2018 4:18 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Aug 2018 16:18:41 -0400

I would disagree with the idea. Do some officers need to learn to be more humble after their commission yes. However, forcing them to be enlisted First is more of a detriment than a benefit. The military is to stubborn of a institution to allow only those that have serve before to be officers. Either way it is a double edge sword but the job of the Lt. Stubborn and hard headed as it may be still remains to bring revolutionary perspectives to the battle field. Some ideas are good others well at least there is a degree in innovation towards strategy

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Aug 18 at 2018 4:31 PM

Capt Jeff S. — Sat, 18 Aug 2018 16:31:21 -0400

I’m a Marine and it really isn’t my place to tell Army folks what they should do. So I’m not going to vote but as a mustang officer I can relate some observations about life as a troop, life as an officer and the expectations placed on each that might be helpful to those interested in this discussion. Bear with me, I’m on my phone and can only see three lines at a time so it may get wordy. I can’t edit my response, so until I get to a computer this will have to do. I have a lot of thoughts to share and will clean it up and make it more concise when I get a chance. Until then, here goes:

As an enlisted person going through boot camp, you are evaluated on how well you follow orders. At OCS, you are expected to be able to follow orders. You are evaluated on how well you receive orders from your superiors AND decipher commanders intent, prioritize tasks and issue orders to those under you to accomplish mission objectives. Billets rotate constantly and you must be able to get your peers to follow your lead and your peers get to evaluate your leadership. You might be a rifleman on point and next billet you might be company commander, and then drop to squad leader. You have to be nice and help those peers getting evaluated if you want the same cooperation when you are filling a billet being evaluated.

I don’t know how the Army handles officer training but if I were to extrapolate my observations from other interactions with the Army before I retired, I’d say they are probably incorporating some of the things we did in their training...

Initially, prior enlisted have an advantage but by the time you hit Captain the differences become almost negligible. I’ve heard both Army and Marine Corps Officers say this and it is my experience as well.

I have met officers that were every bit as good as the prior enlisted (even as lieutenants!) and I have met some that couldn’t convince a platoon to follow them out of a burning house!

Luckily most bad officers get weeded out in the Marines before they hit the Fleet Marine Force. They are generally in school 8-12 months before being put in charge of troops and tend to get weeded out in school...

Navy Officers don’t get the benefit of the leadership training mandated in the Marines and for them it is literally sink or swim. It’s brutal being an Ensign... and of all the service branches they would probably benefit the most from prior enlisted experience. They don’t get much respect from anyone. And they must earn every bit get! A chief can ruin an ensign’s career in a heartbeat. I felt sorry for the ensigns...

Some of you aren’t going to want to hear this but it’s the truth... The training officers receive (at least in the USMC) is a LOT more rigorous because they expect officers to be able to set a good example and be in as good or better shape than the troops they are leading. It is tougher being an officer because there are no excuses for poor performance or not knowing something. Your lack of physical conditioning should never be an excuse for not being able to keep up with your troops. There is no such thing as a “lead from behind” leadership style (despite Obama’s describing his leadership style as that?!!). Real leaders set the example and lead by their example — from the front! They take charge and are resourceful. They should not wait to be told something needs to be done. They are expected to take initiative and seek appropriate guidance if there is something they don’t understand to ensure successful completion of the tasks at hand. As troops, you can say you didn’t know something and get away with it. It doesn’t work when you’re an officer.

It was much easier for me to shine as a troop and the competition is much more fierce in the officer ranks. Most officers are not prior enlisted so while I would like to say all officers should have prior enlisted experience I would be dishonest to say that it should be a requirement. There are lots of incredibly sharp and talented officers that do just fine without it. I have also seen prior enlisted officers that couldn’t stop thinking and acting like their troops.

You don’t get respect by being one of the guys because the troops will use it to get over on you. You have to switch gears and the best thing an officer can do is to be real and be professional. You have to maintain a professional distance because familiarity breeds contempt. There’s a fine line you have to walk and it has its pluses and minuses. The highs are higher and lows are lower.

For those who are disciplined, put their training to use and become proficient in their duties and are mission oriented, the cream always floats to the top and that applies to both officers AND enlisted personnel.

Different expectations are put on officers and officers do get to experience what enlisted are expected to do because (at least in the USMC) officers are tasked to fill all the billets in training and they generally know what to expect from the troops. Junior officers might be a little disappointed to find out that the troops aren’t quite as in-shape as their peers at OCS... or as motivated to make a career out of the military but it doesn’t take long for them to adjust their expectations and figure out what they can realistically expect their troops to do.

So while it generally helps to have prior enlisted experience, it can hurt if you can’t make the adjustment and continue thinking like a troop... no offense. That is not to say officers are better, but they have a different job to perform and different expectations placed on them. It takes both to make troops and officers to make everything work right.

I do believe we have too many officers now. For Marines the ratio should be about 1:11 or 1:12 overall and in combat infantry units even fewer officers to enlisted. The Air Wing kind of skews the ratio because of the pilots. The Air Force ratio of 3:1 is flat excessive. When you have to create billets at the Pentagon to stash all your excess brass and have colonels making coffee for generals... it’s time to start looking at trimming the fat.

Well that’s my $.02 and if you want a cup of coffee you’ll need to kick in another $1 and some change. ; )

Response by SPC Katelynn Reeves made Aug 18 at 2018 8:28 PM

SPC Katelynn Reeves — Sat, 18 Aug 2018 20:28:17 -0400

Yes, I think they should have some kind of enlisted experience, but that would definitely ensure the imminent phasing of the WO class as a whole. When in actuality, it'd be more realistic to phase out OCS instead.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2019 1:06 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Feb 2019 13:06:01 -0500

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made May 17 at 2019 5:20 PM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Fri, 17 May 2019 17:20:42 -0400

You know, that's a really interesting question...I've mentioned a good deal on other threads about such stuff that when I was USAF OTS after Army ROTC, the prior-enlisted guys all generally did have an easier time adjusting, God knows I've reflected on whether I would've also...one guy in the class right after the one I'd finished in, I got recycled once, actually finished fairly recently, I'd read, as an O-10, I'd seen that a few months back...I suppose, being honest about it, on reflection, that having been serious prior enlisted first would also more than likely have done me a world of good, rather than just going in straight out of Army ROTC...another thought I've had, not that I'm gonna be agreed with, I get that, is that, if somebody wanting to go in is from a state with a state defense force (SDF), I realize not all states have them, that I'd really seriously encourage their use, to let those seeking to go in get at least a taste...I entirely realize SDFs aren't quite the same, I entirely appreciate that, however, being as most SDFs apparently let their members go if they get accepted for a Federal branch, as I understand it, God knows, I wish I'd known the NY Guard (NYG) existed by us before I'd ever gone Federal, I'm not saying it's a perfect orientation alternative, I'm just pointing out a thought I've had that it's apparently possibly quite underused in that regard, that's my only point, honest...as I'd said, I realize I'm likely not gonna be agreed with on that, honest, it was just idle musing on my part, something I've reflected on, as I'd said...I answered here being enlisted with no rank requirement here, only as I'd thought that was at least reasonably closest to my thoughts as I've reflected on the whole thing over an extended period...I'd known many prior enlisted, both USAF, as well as other svcs, incl all the way up through CMSgt, go through with me when I was at USAF OTS...typically, from what I saw, pretty much regardless of rank, the prior enlisted guys all generally tended to adjust far more readily than I was ever able to, honest....

Response by SFC Kevin Cornett made May 17 at 2019 7:23 PM

SFC Kevin Cornett — Fri, 17 May 2019 19:23:36 -0400

I voted ROTC is enough, though not exactly my true thoughts.

Response by SPC William Wells made May 19 at 2019 6:57 PM

SPC William Wells — Sun, 19 May 2019 18:57:10 -0400

It would be nice to have someone who knows the job first, before putting him in charge of it.

Response by SPC Dan Kissling made May 27 at 2019 4:37 AM

SPC Dan Kissling — Mon, 27 May 2019 04:37:22 -0400

YES PLEASE, weed out them dimwits that put the lost in LT. I got sick very quickly of the immaturity of some officers. Like how is this not already a regulation because of how much power an officer has?

Response by SGT Joseph Jones made Jun 14 at 2019 10:52 AM

SGT Joseph Jones — Fri, 14 Jun 2019 10:52:15 -0400

Don’t officers have to attend basic training already ?

Response by LTC Charles T Dalbec made Sep 3 at 2019 4:36 PM

LTC Charles T Dalbec — Tue, 03 Sep 2019 16:36:01 -0400

As a SFC being a Mustang I can honestly say that NCO rank with years of Training certainly helped me making Field Grade and working in/at DA Level Assignments and XO to General Officers.

Response by SPC Russ Bolton made Sep 13 at 2019 8:24 PM

SPC Russ Bolton — Fri, 13 Sep 2019 20:24:54 -0400

Being an officer that is beginning their career. The old saying, you need to craw before you walk. This goes very well for the new soldiers weather enlisted or officer. They need to see how it is to be on the ground scuffing their boots to understand that it is hard work in the lower ranks day in and day out. It will give the officer the knowledge of what it takes to be in the so-called bottom.

Response by SPC Anitra Bailey-Bearfield made Apr 10 at 2020 1:50 PM

SPC Anitra Bailey-Bearfield — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:50:50 -0400

Have served under officers that knew less than I did as a new private I think they should at least go through basic training, pldc, bnoc along with ocs. My platoon sergeant a SFC use to roast our officers because they knew nothing, he would have to tell them how to call commands along with everything else. There were some officers that knew what they were doing but those were the ones that had years in service and came in enlisted.

Response by SFC James Corona made Nov 6 at 2020 12:45 PM

SFC James Corona — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 12:45:09 -0500

No.
They should carefully evaulate the "reality" of Leadership and setting the
example for their position as an Officer.

Response by SPC David Lewis made Nov 20 at 2020 12:37 AM

SPC David Lewis — Fri, 20 Nov 2020 00:37:02 -0500

They would have a better understanding and will have some enlisted knowledge and what is like to be screwed every day.