Should an NCO who wins boards receive a better evaluation than one who shows better performance?

2014-02-10T23:12:38-05:00

Which is truly the better NCO or are they both good NCOs? Going to the NCO of the Quarter board or any board is something that is highly recommended to do as far as showing you can stand out amongst your peers but not everyone has such great memory. Some have other qualities to show they are amongst the best. If going to the board and winning is the sure way, are other options for NCOs that are bad at boards?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 11:28 PM

2014-02-10T23:28:42-05:00

If you as a rater had this situation, what do you think would be a fair rating for both?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 11:34 PM

2014-02-10T23:34:04-05:00

Rate them as they are. The one should have an excellent on competence for the board. Everything else should be as they performed.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 11:35 PM

2014-02-10T23:35:42-05:00

Winning boards will help you stand out from your peers.

However, if you are comparing two NCOs over the same period of time, its really just one bullet on an annual NCOER the other wouldn't have (although with success at higher level boards, it is easier to justify an excellence rating).

If you are competing for SGT or SSG, they may receive awards that will help them for promotion as well. In every instance though, be aware that you aren't only competing against your MOS peer at your unit, you are competing with every promotable grade/MOS equivalent Soldier in your career field. Don't get in the mentality that you are only competing with just that one person at the unit.

Keep in mind, 365 days on an annual eval is a long time and one good day at a board makes not a career (although some arguments can be made for successfully navigating major command/Audie Murphy/Morales boards).

By the way, in my experience, those that really took a board seriously were never "bad". 99% of the bad board performances I have seen were due to poor preparation.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2014 3:48 PM

2014-02-11T15:48:40-05:00

Yes for multiple reasons!

Response by SFC Grant Johnson made Feb 11 at 2014 3:55 PM

2014-02-11T15:55:40-05:00

No. Annotate it on their NCOER, but winning a board doesn't make you a better NCO. In fact, I've seen and known several NCO's that managed to make up for deficiencies in their leadership abilities and MOS proficiency by being good "Board Soldiers". Me? I'd much rather devote that time to accomplishing mission and taking care of my Soldiers. I'll do my best to stand out that way. And by going to schools, etc...... I really think that with downsizing, schools are going to become extremely important. It will become a question of "What can you do for the Army?" Aggressively competing in boards to me, says "What can I do for ME?"

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 11 at 2014 3:59 PM

2014-02-11T15:59:15-05:00

<p>Of course not. I've always viewed board bunnies as being inherently selfish. The time you just took preparing for a board so you can look good should have been spent better learning your job or taking care of your Soldiers.</p><p> </p><p>The best NCO's in the Army are the ones too busy doing their jobs and taking care of their people to play board bunny.</p>

Response by SSG Robert Blum made Feb 12 at 2014 8:26 AM

2014-02-12T08:26:19-05:00

Total Soldier Concept. That NCO that is winning boards, depending on what level could get an excellence in compentence, depending on what his other bullets say, but if other wise hes a turd, he should get rated like a turd. If not hes going to think hes an excelelnt NCO all around and will learn nothing, and then as a rater we are doing nothing to develop that NCO. Same for PT Studs. Every facet of the Rated NCOs performance needs to be factored into the NCOER.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2014 8:30 AM

2014-02-12T08:30:35-05:00

Going to the NCO of the QTR/YR board is only one bullet on the NCOER. It does not equate to the total Soldier concept and performance. Now if the NCO performed well during the year and won the board it should reflect in the Evaluation.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2014 8:56 AM

2014-02-12T08:56:51-05:00

<p>An NCO should be evaluated on his/her indivual performance as measured against the expected standard that was laid out in the initial counsleing and modified during the rated period during quarterly counseling. SGT Joe Snuffy winning NCO of the Quarter has absolutely NO BEARING on SGT John Public's NCOER. It is entirley possible that SGT Public performed his job in a manner that warrants an "Excellent" rating. And SGT Snuffy's board performance would help to justify an "Excellent" rating as well.</p><p> </p><p>If both these NCOs were considered equal in all areas, then yes the Rater could use the board performance as the discriminator to determine who receives "among the best" (that is assuming the Rater is actually only giving out "among the best" to one person, but that is a horse of a different color).</p>

Response by MSG Cameron Davis made Feb 12 at 2014 11:54 AM

2014-02-12T11:54:16-05:00

That's poses a very interesting question. I think that
winning an NCO board definitely warrants mentioning on an NCOER. I also believe that a board identifies that
an NCO knows the right answer but the real question would be; does he/she know
how to apply it? When I add this
question, I would say that it should not be something that puts one NCO above
the other when it is evaluation time.
The evaluation should encompass their entire ability and
performance. Somewhere around my second
year as a Drill Sergeant, my unit was visited by the Drill Sergeant of the
Year. He was a great guy but had only
been on the trail for a year and that year was spent jumping from board to
board until he won DS of the year. He was
then whisked from TRADOC unit to TRADOC unit to give us all pointers (critic)
us on how to be a Drill Sergeant….this from a Drill Sergeant who never led
Privates. To think that he would get a
better rating than all of the other Drill Sergeants standing in the hot Georgia
sun in full battle rattle teaching privates to shoot, well that hardly seems
right.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2014 12:53 PM

2014-03-16T12:53:44-04:00

No. Being able to memorize what people want to hear should never be more important than being able to operate and lead competently.<div><br></div><div>How many book smart service members are there with no common sense?</div>

Response by SSG Zachery Mitchell made Mar 23 at 2014 7:20 AM

2014-03-23T07:20:25-04:00

I know some NCO's that are great at boards and can rock the NCO of the quarter board but when it comes down to actually applying it to leadership and in real world scenarios they are completely lost. I call these people board babies. Learning how to answer questions correctly is great and if you win a board like that it should be mentioned on your NCOER but it shouldn't get you a better NCOER than someone that has demonstrated the potential to perform as an outstanding leader. Now if you are great with the boards and are still great with your ability to apply it then you're NCOER should be pretty damn good.

Response by MSG Jose Colon made Mar 23 at 2014 1:26 PM

2014-03-23T13:26:24-04:00

Here ae my controversial $0.02.

Winning boards is not as important as participating in them.

Almost everyone focus on the winner, and that is good. However, participating in boards provides a Soldier an experience that he/she would only get in Toast Masters or debate team, even if you do not win.

Why would a combat Soldier or a top notch Soldier, top performance Soldier want to have experience in Toast Masters and debate team? Simple.

1. If you want to become a good officer or NCO, you will eventually have to prepare and deliver briefings. Boards prepare you to organize your thoughts and face questioning from high ranking personnel. You know they will not kill you if you mess up.

2. Eventually, you will be a civilian. Board experience is akin to job interviews. If you can impress a bunch of CSMs and senior officers, you will be in decent shape for the beginning of your civilian career.

Regarding evaluations, I like performance based evaluations better. But, again, board results also show performance.

So, also, board winners need also to focus in leadership, PMCs, combat TTPs, organizational savvy, etc. and leading from the front at all times.

Response by SFC Oscar Colon made Mar 23 at 2014 5:26 PM

2014-03-23T17:26:51-04:00

No, it should be performance, wining boards is like the cherry I the top. It help when you right ncoer.

Response by SSG Dave Rogers made Mar 25 at 2014 11:42 AM

2014-03-25T11:42:04-04:00

Well first of all, if a soldier is not performing well they should not be going before the board. The competition for going before the board should start at the unit, at least it did when I first went. We would have mini boards at the unit, but only those who were doing well were allowed to attend. These soldiers were recommended by the PLT leaders to the 1SG and Commander because of their performance on the job. From the unit, they best would go to the BN, and onward as by their performance at the board.

But I know that is not the case all the time. Later on when I asked to go before a board, or even if I did not, because I had done them before, and done well on them I was sent. To some units it is about showing off, lets face it, it is not just good for the soldiers it is good for the unit to have the winning soldier.

I remember going before my first NCO board. I was a new E5, who had won at lower levels. There were other NCO's there who had been in longer than me, and seemed to know each other from previous boards. As I looked around many of them had maybe 5-7 ribbons, while I stood there with 12. Most of them had their binders in their bags, while I was going over mine. Many of them sat in their jackets, while I kept mine hung until it was time. Talking to a few of them over the weekend, they saw this as a get away from their unit. A way to make a little extra on travel money, and get some rest.

I saw this as a chance to show that not only did I know my job and do it well, that I represented what a soldier of the quarter was all about. After a couple of more boards I got to thinking is this really worth it? I never asked to go again.

While I do agree that knowing your job and being good at it is important, very important, it is not enough. As you go up in ranks there are promotion boards, and positions that will require you to not only know your job, but show that you are a leader in every way, which includes the ability for you to know about the military and its structure, and be able to lead and train your troops. If you are not able to remember things how can you train your soldiers? I can never have respect for a leader that would have to read the instructions on how to do my job, I would want them to be able to know it, and explain it to me. But also, how can you prepare your soldiers to be good at their jobs, or to advance themselves if you can not do it yourself?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2014 10:44 PM

2014-04-14T22:44:14-04:00

This question sort of parallels other good philosophical questions regarding perception.  How about this one...Who will be kicked out of the Army more quickly in the coming years, the capable leader that gives 110% but has a ton of noticeable tattoos in unflattering places, or the overweight guy who is in a position where he goes unnoticed and fails to meet the simplest of physical standards simply because no one holds him accountable?  Regarding your question specifically, the evaluation will hold the most weight with ones professional future (in theory), and that is why it is so important for leaders to rate honestly and impartially when appropriate.  

Response by CH (MAJ) Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2014 4:52 AM

2014-05-05T04:52:04-04:00

Leaders should never send NCOs who aren't performing at least as well as their peers to boards for recognition. Winning a board does say some positive things about an NCO. For instance, that he has tact and military bearing, that she is willing to do something extra like study and prepare, and that he wants to advance or be recognized for excellence.

Boards are not the whole story, but they are an indicator or performance.

As far as the question that started this discussion, NCOERs are competitive. In other words, we are constantly measured against our peers. Going to boards is voluntary, shows initiative, and should be a goal of every motivated NCO.

No, I don't think the winner of an NCO of the quarter board should necessarily get a better eval, but all other things being equal, the motivated Soldier gets the recommendation.

There is no traffic jam on the extra mile.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2014 6:30 PM

2014-11-14T18:30:13-05:00

Short Answer: The one who best accomplishes the mission with minimum delay and human cost.
Details:
Rote memory doesn't mean much: I was Supernumery so often they permanently took me off of guard duty. Doesn't mean I understood the questions nor the answers. In fact, some of the stuff they had us memorize was wrong. So during the Promotion boards, I'd point out the error in the study guide and provide the correct answers with citations...that means more, demonstrates my MOS, but still not enough. Getting my guys across the finish line, training them well enough that none of them had to be dragged across--that might be a better measure. So when I became President of the Promotion Board--out went the study guide. In went the "situation" questions. "X" happens. "Y" Occurs. What will you do/how will you handle it? Why?

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2014 8:12 PM

2014-11-14T20:12:31-05:00

They're probably both good in their own ways, SSG Private RallyPoint Member, but I would go with the performer over the board winner. Performance trumps spit and polish (and winning a board) in my book.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 12:09 AM

2015-03-13T00:09:31-04:00

Good Question:
Depending on the board evaluation criteria it may merit several bullets to justify and excellence box checks but likely not all. However, evaluations are supposed to consider the entire rating period both the good and the bad. An award may be justified at approximate one level below the level the board was held. Or it can be added to support a larger award later.

A board does not say that NCO elevated the people for whom he or she led. So while a board is prestigious, it is not the sum of your performance while doing your job. That would be like allowing a score on the APFT alone to determine the outcome of your career.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 9:29 AM

2015-03-13T09:29:54-04:00

I think this all depends on much more needed information.

I would say for the most basic answer they are both probably good NCOs. The question is what has each NCO done to round out the rest of the total Soldier concept. Winning a board alone should not get you a Perfect NCOER or status. On the same note knowing everything about your job should not either. Some guys know everything about there specific MOS but could not lead to save thier life. So both most perform more than the one thing they are being credited with.

I will add that from my experience the NCOs that are selected to go to the competitive boards are amoung the best in the company. They always have additional PT requirments, weapons requirments, and other Soldier skills. So you don't send a guy just cause he can memorize answers. "That is the way to pass a promotion board". Compation boards require additional tasks.

One more add on SSG Private RallyPoint Member , i saw in one of your comments that you said some leaders thing an NCO that wins boards should get an automatic 1 over 1. My response to that is it depends. It that NCO won BN, BDE, post, then a command board. I would have to wager that based on that he at the moment is the best NCO around. that is the point of these competitions. I know some people will argue that there are NCOs that don't do the boards and are better than that NCO so he can't be the best. That would be like saying you are the best boxer in the world but never get in the ring with the current champ. Not getting in the ring automaticly makes the champ a better boxer than you. If you think you are the best NCO and better than the guy that won the NCO board. Prove it by competing.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 9:54 AM

2015-03-13T09:54:49-04:00

At the end of the day you want to be a well rounded Soldier. Wining a NCO board does not automatically give you a 1/1 rating. You have to earn that rating based on your performance from the entire rating period. If you are trying to separate yourself from your peers and don’t want to compete in boards you can do other things like take on additional duties in your company or battalion. Civilian education is something to work on as well. I’m sure many Senior NCOs can give some advice on things to do to not only be recognized in your company and battalion but also things that can be put into your NCOER so that board members can see the same accomplishments.

Response by SSG Adam Reed made Mar 13 at 2015 12:19 PM

2015-03-13T12:19:06-04:00

What is and what should never be. . . Led Zeppelin.

Response by SGT John Wesley made Mar 26 at 2015 9:45 PM

2015-03-26T21:45:17-04:00

I did all those boards, SOM, SOQ, SOY and it did not get me promoted. My MOS was pretty small and promotions were rare.

It did a lot to prepare me for other things though. From studying for the boards, I had better memorization skills, my study habits improved, which has helped me over the years as I carry professional licenses that require me to study and take EOC exams to earn my credits.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 20 at 2015 4:08 PM

2015-05-20T16:08:52-04:00

To me the NCO who can lead, mentor, plan, execute operations has the advantage. That is the essence of the NCO, not just winning a board.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2015 5:14 PM

2015-06-23T17:14:03-04:00

SSG Pierce,

I would say that both deserve to be noted in an evaluation. You can only go to so many boards and reflect SGT Morales or Audie Murphy Board results only so many times. Eventually that soldier would have to live up to the rep.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 24 at 2015 9:03 PM

2015-06-24T21:03:54-04:00

I would pick the stronger leader. If one of the NCOs was a tank god, and the other a board god, I would pick the first.

Response by SSgt Scott Schwerman made Jun 24 at 2015 10:44 PM

2015-06-24T22:44:40-04:00

I think that this is a very loaded question. It could really go either way. It really depends what each person is showing better at. But winning a board, or getting any award for that matter, makes that person rate at least a slightly better score. I think the better question to ask is, why did the other person/people not get placed on the board instead.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 12 at 2015 9:35 PM

2015-08-12T21:35:05-04:00

I have heard sometimes there are NCOs who take care of the mission and other NCOs take care of their careers.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 24 at 2015 11:48 AM

2015-10-24T11:48:15-04:00

NCO's can volunteer for additional duties or add value to an organization. There is no substitute for a good leader. I would rather have a real tiger than a paper tiger.