Should a Soldier with a physical profile that prevents taking an event on the APFT be able to earn the Physical Fitness Badge?

2014-11-15T11:27:06-05:00

Should a Soldier with a physical profile that prevents taking an event on the Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT) be able to earn the Physical Fitness Badge?
(Note: The physical limitation could be a result of combat or non-combat related injury)

Currently, Soldiers who obtain a minimum score of 270 or above, with a minimum of 90 points per event on the APFT and meet the body fat standards will be awarded the Physical Fitness Badge for Physical Fitness Excellence.

Are Soldiers currently disadvantaged (or could a disadvantage be perceived) by not being able to earn the badge due to physical profile and how AR 600-8-22, Military Awards, is written?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2014 11:39 AM

2014-11-15T11:39:50-05:00

SGM Matthew Quick great question. In the political spectrum we walk on eggshells to avoid hurting people's feelings and we arguable live in a everyone gets a trophy world. I would say no you should have to earn the physical fitness badge. If you have a walking profile and are not required to do pushups and situps then all you have to do is pass the walk and you get the badge. that does not seem fair to those who work hard to just miss it by getting a 289 that missed the run by a second. Just like I cannot receive an Infantry Marksmanship Badge or an overseas ribbon due to where I am stationed and what MOS I am. Not everyone should get awards just because they show up.

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made Nov 15 at 2014 11:44 AM

2014-11-15T11:44:14-05:00

I would say no. How can somebody unable to take the APFT receive a badge that is based on the results of the APFT? Perhaps if there was recognition for certain events, then the person would qualify for the specific event.

If somebody is not deployable, they are not eligible for a deployment based award (Overseas Deployment Ribbon, etc.).

I personally wouldn't say the soldiers are "disadvantaged" -- it's just a reflection of their current abilities. Injuries do limit what we can do. Nothing to be ashamed of about that.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Nov 15 at 2014 11:52 AM

2014-11-15T11:52:00-05:00

SGM Matthew Quick -- what if the Soldier is taking a specially modified version of the APFT, such as biking/walking? This would be a valid APFT score according to regs, so I assume this would suffice for your question as well.

Overall, I don't think Soldiers should be awarded a badge that they are unable to earn IAW regs. If you can't take an APFT -- including a modified APFT -- then you are not disadvantaged by the system. You should not be awarded the badge if you do not earn it.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Nov 15 at 2014 12:02 PM

2014-11-15T12:02:23-05:00

1. There is a badge for physical fitness in the army?
2. The possibility of earning it when incapable of meeting the standards is even up for discussion?

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2014 12:01 PM

2014-11-15T12:01:33-05:00

My vote would be no, SGM Matthew Quick, but that is a tough question, especially if the profile is due to an injury sustained in combat. Nevertheless, I think the standard should remain the standard, because as soon as one exception is allowed, then others will likely feel that their particular situation warrants the same consideration.

Response by SFC Boots Attaway made Nov 15 at 2014 12:28 PM

2014-11-15T12:28:38-05:00

As someone that had a profile due to a combat related injury I say NO. That award is for people that exceed the standards. Now if there is an alternate test they can do and score 90+ on it then yes.

Response by MSG(P) Michael Warrick made Nov 15 at 2014 2:26 PM

2014-11-15T14:26:20-05:00

Why should a soldier that is on a permanent profile that takes the APFT (Pushups, Sit-ups and 2.5 walk, 6.2 Bicycle, or 800 Yard swim) not be able to earn the award if the score 90 points or better on the pushups and sit-ups?

Just a thought.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2014 5:48 PM

2014-11-15T17:48:35-05:00

if they can complete the test and adhere to the standard then yes, otherwise no. Limitations may suck but they help maintain the standard.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2014 9:35 PM

2014-11-15T21:35:24-05:00

You can't earn more than 60% if an alternate event is done. Look,I used to be an extended scale stud. A few injuries sustained in Afghanistan have taken that from me. I'm not crying about it. I do hate that all I can get is a 260 now. But I deal with it. Too much emphasis has always been placed on the pt gods. I got air assault school early coz I scored a 416 on my apft. I got rewarded for scoring a 395 in another course. I have stacks of those little round badges in a shoe box in my closet. Can't wear em anymore. Breaks my heart (not really). It's more of a reminder of who I used to be and how much I've grown and I see the big picture now. I used to judge people by what they've earned. The badges, awards, medallions. As you can see, I'm no stranger to them. I met a fat guy in 2010 who resembled this stud I trained years before. He blinked a lot and stuttered and looked worse than pvt pile from that movie. I was talking to him when one of my SSG came up and started ridiculing this fat piece of garbage. The soldier didn't defend himself. As I was reading the guy, I told the Ssg to stop. Just then, BDE Csm told that SSG to come hither. I got to talk to the kid as the SSG was getting smoked by the CSM. That SPC had two Purple Hearts. He had shrapnel still lodged in his head and back. Doctors afraid to operate due to sensitive locations, they could paralyze him or make him a veggie. That spc earned his apft badge while I was his grader on an apft. I was tough as nails back then. He'd given his youth his health and damn near his life for this country. And people who were a little more fortunate ridiculed him. He shouldn't have to wear a shirt that explains his sacrifice. He shouldn't have to explain why he's out of shape. Too much emphasis is placed on physical fitness. And the majority of those Pt studs are people who wee a little more fortunate than those of us who had a "bad day" at the office while deployed. Don't change the standards. Pt badge for the heroes that can still perform. But leaders need to quit thinking those round badge studs are the only ones worthy of sending to a school.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2014 6:52 AM

2014-11-16T06:52:19-05:00

SGM....I personally think this is one of those awards that just needs to go away, along with the EIB and CIB (as only infantrymen can earn these). I bring up the EIB/CIB because I think your question falls in line under the same premise of those awards. So, if you have a permanent profile then you are like the rest of the Army not in the infantry branch with regards to the EIB/CIB. I say just get ride of it.

Another reason I say get ride of it is that it adds yet another reason to promote the 300 community as the standard. Don't get me wrong, I think physical fitness is important, however I have known plenty of GREAT Soldiers and Leaders who did well (240-270 points) on their APFT, but were phenomenal with respect to their MOS proficiency. Likewise, I have known plenty of 300+ Soldiers / Leaders who couldn't lead ants to a picnic. The stigma is being a 300 APFT as the standard needs to go away, as the if it were the standard, then the Army would change to the standard.

Just my thoughts!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2014 6:49 AM

2014-11-17T06:49:44-05:00

Absolutely not. I know that there are soldiers that have legitimate injuries that prevent them from doing an event on the PT test, but come on. We are not a kids soccer team, where everyone gets a trophy just for showing up.
This badge is already so infrequently worn, and looked at in a lot of units with disgust, we should just get rid of it. It looks like the Presidental Physical Fitness Award from the early 1990's. I will continue to score 280-300, but I will never wear this badge unless given an order to affix it to my uniform.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Nov 17 at 2014 7:14 AM

2014-11-17T07:14:39-05:00

The PT badge is based on a non-profile APFT and should stay that way. Now, one could argue that with new exemptions for amputees and combat related injuries remaining on AD that the "standard" could be re-looked, but I don't think the demographics would support it.

I've never seen anyone put promotion emphasis on the APFT badge other than additional points, so I don't think soldiers are at a disadvantage for not being able to earn it due to a profile, unless the climate has changed in recent years.

Response by SGT Luke Slota made Nov 17 at 2014 7:59 AM

2014-11-17T07:59:10-05:00

I hope I'm not being to blunt, but who cares. In Afghanistan when working with a unit I never asked a guy... "Hey what is you PT Score?" In my infantry battalion I don't even think these were handed out let alone worn. You just knew what you had to be capable of physically and didn't worry about some guys score in another platoon. The only time I recall my PT score being a topic of conversation was for promotion and bidding for my slot to Ranger School- the strongest always prevail.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Nov 17 at 2014 2:39 PM

2014-11-17T14:39:45-05:00

I could care less about the Physical Fitness Badge, other than a bullet on my NCOER it does not mean a whole lot these days in the larger view of things. As for physical profile limitations, it angers me that taking an alternate event hinders my promotion points and prevents me from getting a 3 or 4-day weekend based on command policy. As someone who is on a permanent profile I can say first hand that I would rather do the regular APFT anyday over being ill/injured. My last 'normal' APFT I earned my Phyiscal Fitness Badge, but now I am forced to do PT that provides absolutely zero benefit to my physical fitness and am seen as a shamer for not being able to do the same activities as the rest of the command. I understand that there is a valid reason for not being able to do these things, but it honestly feels like I am being punished for something out of my control. Are ailments not enough of a punishment? I didn't choose to be sick, and was given no option of staying/leaving the military once it happened.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 11:04 AM

2014-11-18T11:04:07-05:00

Absolutely not and ideals of the Xbox generation where everybody gets a trophy is lunacy. It is there for a reason. People get hurt and people heal. Sometimes they don't heal. In combat they earn a purple heart and in non combat they do not. This really stems for me back to the PT with a profile NCOER question. The problem found about 5 or 6 years ago at a SGM steering group meeting was that 87 percent of NCOER were among the best. Really? BS. We have to fix it not make it worse. Start being honest with your self your soldiers and quit worrying about hurting someone's feelings. Excellence and among the best should top 10 percent not top 85 percent. Not everybody gets a trophy. Sorry to ruffle feathers Matt. Great question though and some great responses.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 8:48 PM

2014-11-18T20:48:23-05:00

Due to osteoarthritis of the knees, I have a P2 profile that has me doing the 2.5 mile walk instead of the 2 mile run for the APFT. For promotion point purposes, I can achieve any score up to and including a 300. However, the regs governing the Physical Fitness patch do not say anything at all about alternate aerobic events on the APFT.

Do I care? Not really. I don't want to sew a silly little patch on my IPFUs. If I were to do that, every shirt (both long and short sleeved), and every jacket would have to have the patch sewed onto it. That's time and money at the sewing shop. For what? So everyone knows that I made over 270 on my APFT? The only people who really need to know that are those writing and reading my NCOER.

Should there be something written into the regs for those on a profile regarding the PF excellence patch? Sure, for those who think it's important to advertise.

Other than that, I really couldn't care less.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2015 8:14 AM

2015-01-24T08:14:52-05:00

Nope. Flat out. No excellence bullet on NCOER, no APFT badge for a "modified" score for APFT due to profile. Only for promotion eligibility from SPC-SGT and SGT-SSG.

No disadvantage to Soldiers with a P2 profile, as the APFT Badge doesn't provide any advantage to any Soldier.

I don't wear the badge, and often question whether or not I should. I figure my Soldiers know my APFT score anyway, and they expect it from me.

When I was serving as a 1SG, I've awarded the badges to my Soldiers that earned it, but never required them to wear it. I've only seen a few to wear it, and with the new APFU, I'm not sure I'd sew it on - the fabric is very different.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made May 6 at 2015 4:29 PM

2015-05-06T16:29:55-04:00

I have a lot of issues with the way the Army does the alternate events. Pass or fail, what is the incentive for the soldier to exceed? I know for enlisted soldiers for promotion boards it can be averaged for the event you could not take. But if you are given a profile then you get what you get 60 points for the actual test.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 6:37 PM

2016-10-21T18:37:24-04:00

There are so may different advantage people have that can give them a unfair advantage to obtain the badge. Some older females only need 6 Pushups to reach 90. Some older males only need 53 to reach 91. So instead of judging who deserves it, we should really change it. Instead of 90 on each event. Maybe we should set a certain amount of Pushups and Situps and Run time. And those who have a run at your pace could attempt to obtain the run portion if they choose to accept the risk. This would allow anyone to obtain it and if the standards were the same across the board they wold be no judgements on who deserved it.

Response by SPC Roger Giffen made Oct 21 at 2016 6:45 PM

2016-10-21T18:45:37-04:00

What is next? An award for making it to formation every morning??

Response by CW3 Matt Hutchason made Oct 21 at 2016 9:43 PM

2016-10-21T21:43:03-04:00

2 things on this one..... First, when I was in flight school, I got a leg injury that would ultimately result in a permanent profile for no running. I did an alternate event on the APFT from that point on. As overall grade and the OML for the course, I was at a disadvantage due to the 60 point max for that event. I submitted a memo to the Company Commander to award a point value for the 2.5 mile walk based on a sliding scale in order to level the playing field. Turns out, I was an honor graduate in my class. Second, after reporting to my first unit and "paying my dues", I was recommended to become a Pilot In Command by my peers. My Company Commander there shot the recommendation down because I couldn't "take a full APFT". He left and we got a new CC. He approved my PIC status after I did the requisite training and check rides. Soon after, I became a flight lead. I led my company's first combat Air Assault in Afghanistan in early 2003. I later went on to become a Maintenance Test Pilot, then a Battalion QC Officer. I say that to say this..... So I couldn't run 2 miles in the alloyed APFT time? Did that somehow stop my brain from working? It did not. That CC was wrong, and I went on to excel at what I did. I could give a shit less about a badge. Never have. And I maintain that I would rather have a Soldier that could do his actual job (in my case, fixing helicopters) but is 10-15 pounds "overweight" than a guy who scored a 784 on an APFT but couldn't differentiate between an open end and box end wrench. And yes, I know that some MOS' are physically demanding and require someone who is in top physical shape, but I also know that APFT scores only tell a small portion of the story.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2016 8:04 PM

2016-10-23T20:04:02-04:00

You can earn more than 60%in the alternative event. Read the manual. It's suppose to be the two non alt event scores added together, Then divided by 2 = the score that is given to the alt event. Add those 3 scores together and that is how someone with a perm profile can earn a PT badge.

Response by SFC Craig Starr made Oct 27 at 2016 2:50 AM

2016-10-27T02:50:19-04:00

Why is this even a topic for discussion?