Should a 2LT salute a 1LT?

2013-11-03T10:28:18-05:00

I have been dealing with this a lot. I have seen both ways. As per AR 600–25 the junior person should salute. I see a 1LT senior to a 2LT and I salute them. I have seen many instances where this does not happen. Most see a LT as a LT regardless of being a 1st or 2nd. How do you all feel about this?

"B. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States..."

Response by CW3(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2013 11:33 AM

2013-11-03T11:33:32-05:00

You see this with Warrants all the time, but I still do the correct thing and salute.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2013 12:42 PM

2013-11-03T12:42:55-05:00

Yeah so that is the same as asking if a CPT Should Salute a Major isn't it? I get it, an LT is an LT technically... and maybe you have some common understanding amongst you the same as the Warrant Officers do, but I agree with the previous comment, the standard is the standard..

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Nov 3 at 2013 12:45 PM

2013-11-03T12:45:48-05:00

Sir, a 2LT should always salute a 1LT.  Just as a 1LT should salute a CPT and so on.  It is the right thing to do. 

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Nov 3 at 2013 7:26 PM

2013-11-03T19:26:59-05:00

Not only should it be done, it should be corrected when it doesn't. And you should be making that correction since you see it happen in many instances. Especially being a prior NCO you should know better.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2013 7:55 PM

2013-11-03T19:55:01-05:00

Sir, although they may consider themselves "peers" and see themselves as Lieutenants, the regulation is clear.  It shouldn't be a compromise on the regulation simply because "most see........". If the standard/regulatory guidance is followed each time, you'll see more 2LTs saluting 1LTs.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2013 8:02 PM

2013-11-03T20:02:45-05:00

I am addressing this from the "How it is" standpoint. As everyone who has posted thus far has addressed the "How it should be" standpoint.<br><br>Simply put, there is a basic professional understanding between Lieutenants that the 2nd Lieutenants do not salute 1st Lieutenants, and 1st Lieutenants do not expect a salute from (and will correct) 2nd Lieutenants who do salute them. Professionally we look at ourselves as peers. Similar to what Warrant Officers do, by my understanding.<br><br>Consider that there is no regulation that says Officers do not wear Marksmanship badges, yet still we do not.<br><br>All Lieutenants salute Captains, and it can be a rough transition fro LT to Captain. (Especially in the Navy! yuck yuck yuck) OK bad joke.<br><br>Bottom Line, you are not wrong for ding it, but it is not culturally accepted within the O-1/O-2 community.<br>

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Nov 3 at 2013 8:15 PM

2013-11-03T20:15:43-05:00

This question depends on how you define "should" -- are you meaning according to doctrine, or are you meaning if a 1LT would ever expect a 2LT to salute him/her.  I agree with the importance of standards, and the standard would say "yes" -- that this is clearly a saluting situation. The challenge here is that I never met a 1LT (myself included) who would ever expect a 2LT to salute. This feels comparable to asking whether a SPC should stand at parade rest while talking to a CPL. The answer would probably be "yes" there -- although perhaps that is not consistently enforced. Can anyone speak to that SPC-CPL scenario?

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Nov 3 at 2013 8:37 PM

2013-11-03T20:37:17-05:00

What I like is when I see a COL with a LT and I salute the COL so the LT also salutes back while the COL says that's not for you LT.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2013 11:20 AM

2013-11-04T11:20:15-05:00

He should salute and I think the reason is that as a LT rises amongst his peers, it sets a good precedent and shows enlisted that respect is shown from officer to office.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2013 1:02 PM

2013-11-04T13:02:24-05:00

It is the standard and it's the right thing to do.<br>However, I hardly ever see it.  I asked about it when I was a wee private and the LTs explained it to me like 2LT Hooser did in his comment.  It made sense to me then and it makes sense to me now.<br>There's all these little things we do as a culture that are not supported by our regulations; such as officers calling each other by their first names.<br>

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2013 2:17 PM

2013-11-04T14:17:45-05:00

This goes back to respect. In FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide it explains that the salute is a courtesy of respect. If an E-5 is in a Squad Leader position and is talking to an E-6 Squad Leader for the first time he should stand at Parade Rest. This shuold especially be held true in front of other soldiers. Appereance is perception. Then the perception that the E-6 does not require a parade rest will be passed onto the soldiers. Before you know it the soldiers are swearing and talking with their hands. Do the right thing and you will not get hung up in such a situation.

Response by CMC Robert Young made Nov 4 at 2013 3:45 PM

2013-11-04T15:45:37-05:00

Remember, you are always being watched. If the regulations require it, and you don't do it, that gives unspoken permission to your junior service members (those people you are charged to lead) to do likewise. And if we can ignore one rule, then we can ignore them all. We can't pick and choose our obligations.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Nov 4 at 2013 4:48 PM

2013-11-04T16:48:38-05:00

I would love to hear from some SENIOR officers on this matter instead of ones like CPT Holler who come and vote but give no justification or argument.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2013 5:13 PM

2013-11-04T17:13:29-05:00

Does it make a difference that, as far as our NATO allies are concerned, 1LTs and 2LTs are the same rank?

Response by SGM Glenn Dawkins made Nov 4 at 2013 5:14 PM

2013-11-04T17:14:17-05:00

The best response is to yield to connotation inherent in the regulation. Or, as we were taught,"when in doubt, whip it out". Can't ever go wrong doing so. 

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2013 5:27 PM

2013-11-04T17:27:26-05:00

I just read the sections on saluting in AR 600-25 and FM 7-21.13... they could definitely be clearer.<br>

Response by SSG Jim Handy made Nov 4 at 2013 5:34 PM

2013-11-04T17:34:57-05:00

When I was young Sgt. I worked with a group of LT's , both 1st and 2nd, all great guys, but none them ever saluted each other. When I asked them about this their reply was " rank among LT"s is like virtue among whores". I think that kind of sums it up. If you consider this a problem, you must first realize that the LT's caused it themselves, and THEY must be the ones to clean it up.

Response by SSG James Morrow made Nov 4 at 2013 8:08 PM

2013-11-04T20:08:17-05:00

What 2Lt's and 1Lt's do when they are among themselves is between them but when they are around soldiers as per AR 600-25 or Fm 22-5 or FM17-21 Junior Soldiers salute Senior Officers period, To not do so show a lack of respect. How can you as a leader expect your soldiers to show proper courtesy when you are not leading by example. A 1lt out ranks a 2Lt the last time I looked, Would you not salute your company commander if he was a 1LT? Come on gentlemen a regulation is a regulation no matter how much you disagree with it. Show the proper respect. Be a professional.

Response by SSG James Morrow made Nov 4 at 2013 8:12 PM

2013-11-04T20:12:06-05:00

<span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px; ">What 2Lt's and 1Lt's do when they are among themselves is between them but when they are around soldiers as per AR 600-25 or Fm 22-5 or FM17-21 Junior Soldiers salute Senior Officers period, To not do so show a lack of respect. How can you as a leader expect your soldiers to show proper courtesy when you are not leading by example. A 1lt out ranks a 2Lt the last time I looked, Would you not salute your company commander if he was a 1LT? Come on gentlemen a regulation is a regulation no matter how much you disagree with it. Show the proper respect. Be a professional.</span>

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2013 9:53 PM

2013-11-04T21:53:41-05:00

When I was a brand new 2LT I saluted a 1LT. He returned the salute but gave me a nasty look. Shorty after I was told that 2LTs do not salute 1LTs, and since then I have never expected a salute from a 2LT, I usually just walk past them and give a little head nod. It's one of those un-written rules for officers. And if a 2LT did salute me, I'd pull them to the side and explain that they didn't have to.

Response by CPT Bill McNeely made Nov 5 at 2013 8:06 AM

2013-11-05T08:06:24-05:00

Is this an example of the focus on "petty discipline" over war fighting focus we have to look forward to in years to come? Folks seem to be eating this conversation up.

Response by LTC Gene Shewbert made Nov 5 at 2013 8:25 AM

2013-11-05T08:25:33-05:00

I agree and support the regulation when it comes to saluting, but the truth is the salute is a time honored recognition between warriors.  It is rendered out of respect for each other and the tasks we are asked to perform.  We too often see saluting as some obligatory requirement to recognize rank.  Too often I heard Non-commissioned officers stating, "that LT is barely out of school, with my experience he should be saluting me."  When I have encountered this, I have always taken the position of your right...you have a great deal of experience and as the Trainer of Soldiers it is your responsibility to TRAIN that officer and bring him or her up to speed with their duties and skill sets....it isn't about rank...its about creating a survivable combat team.  Recognize the fact that every Soldier took an oath...put on their uniform and understands the responsibility....exchange the salute as kin warriors.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2013 8:40 AM

2013-11-05T08:40:11-05:00

Why is this even an issue? If these are the types of discussions we are having in the military, I want out now.... Customs and courtesies... It's not a choice no matter how you "feel" about the situation

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2013 8:40 AM

2013-11-05T08:40:40-05:00

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2013 8:55 AM

2013-11-05T08:55:35-05:00

Sir, I think a 2LT should salute a 1LT, no matter what. From what i have seen posted is its about the standard. When I am serving in a Law Enforcement capacity or as we say on duty, I am under arms and still have to render a salute unless it interferes with my routine work.

i. Salutes are not
required to be rendered or returned when the senior or subordinate, or both are
—

(1) In civilian attire.

(2) Engaged in routine work if the salute would
interfere.

(3) Carrying articles with both hands so occupied as to
make saluting impracticable.

(4) Working as a member of a detail, or engaged in
sports or social functions where saluting would present a safety hazard.

(5) In public places such as theaters, churches, and in
public conveyances.

(6) In the ranks of a formation.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2013 9:42 AM

2013-11-05T09:42:45-05:00

I am guilty. I used to salute 1LTs when I was newly commissioned, but when the only thing separating you from who you work with as peers is a few months (the promotion to 1LT is ALL time in grade) it begins to seem silly. Behind closed doors, I never allow my 2LT PLs (I am XO at this point) call me Sir. It is Tim. <br>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2013 9:53 AM

2013-11-05T09:53:36-05:00

Without a doubt the 2LT should ALWAYS salute the 1LT while in uniform. It seems to be forgotten that saluting is a privilege and an honor. Has our Army fallen into such disarray that we have forgotten the most basic and fundamental Customs and Courtesies that are supposed to drive the discipline within the Army? Furthermore Sir, if you witness another 2LT not saluting a 1LT you really should square your peer away.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2013 10:04 AM

2013-11-05T10:04:09-05:00

I think it is high time to get rid of saluting and calling each other Sir. This isn't the 1400's and we aren't medieval knights.

Response by PO2 Richard Keeler made Nov 5 at 2013 10:53 AM

2013-11-05T10:53:13-05:00

Uh ... a salute is mandatory to officers by those less senior! It reinforces the chain of command by showing abeyance to rank.

Response by SFC Glenn Cornett made Nov 5 at 2013 11:38 AM

2013-11-05T11:38:08-05:00

LT's follow the regs, your men are always watching.

Response by LTC Dallas Powell made Nov 5 at 2013 11:43 AM

2013-11-05T11:43:12-05:00

I see a lot of responses here, with one commonality: almost everyone who has never been an officer agrees that O1's should salute O2's. While the strict reading of the regulation might be correct, it is almost never practiced and probably never will be. In my view as an officer, LT = LT, always. Many of the reasons already stated are sufficient, but I will add my two cents.<div><br></div><div>If a 1LT is making 2LT's salute and say sir or ma'am, something is obviously wrong with the 1LT. I have seen this in my career, and corrected it when I could. No LT worth his salt should ever expect that from a brother/sister LT. </div>

Response by LTC Dallas Powell made Nov 5 at 2013 11:51 AM

2013-11-05T11:51:26-05:00

I see a pattern here: almost everyone who has never been an officer thinks O1's should salute O2's, and almost all the officers know better. In my experience, LT= LT, always. While the technical reading of the regulations may be correct, in this case it has almost never been practiced in our military (not just the Army), and likely never will.<div><br></div><div>I would add that if a 1LT is expecting 2LT's to salute and call him/her Sir or Ma'am, something is wrong. I have seen it and corrected it when I could, but outside of official ceremonies, trust me: you need LT's to have that bond.</div><div><br></div><div>Some have compared this to a SPC standing at parade rest for a CPL -- I think it's more like a PFC/SPC relationship. That SPC will soon be a SGT, and the PFC will be required to afford the SGT proper customs and courtesies. Until then, they need the bonds of friendship that lower rank allows.</div><div><br></div><div>Besides that, what's the difference between a PFC and a 2LT? The PFC has been promoted.</div>

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2013 12:00 PM

2013-11-05T12:00:54-05:00

Wow, is this really a debate?  Its been awhile since I was a 2LT and then a 1LT, but a simple answer is NO.  Its just the way it is for lots of good reasons.  While there is a difference in experience, they are really just different pay grades, more than different ranks as far as the positions they hold and what is expected of them.   If during my 26+ years I ever saw a 2LT salute a 1LT I would have laughed out loud.

Response by SGT James P. Davidson, MSM made Nov 5 at 2013 1:18 PM

2013-11-05T13:18:14-05:00

My response, off the cuff, would be, "Only if the 1Lt outranks the 2Lt."

To me, it's like asking if a Lieutenant Colonel should salute a full-bird, though both are addressed as 'Colonel'. The same can be said of the ranks of General.

Proper protocol dictates an unquestionable 'yes'.

Response by SSG Jim Handy made Nov 5 at 2013 1:38 PM

2013-11-05T13:38:55-05:00

I think a lot of people are skimming over a very important aspect and that is what is the situation and where you are. Relationships vary with different people and your working situation. Most people who have been in 4 or more years understand what I'm saying. As a SSG, I have had relationships with Majors, LTC.'s, Col.'s, and even one General ( who went on to become the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) and when we were alone, we were on a first name basis. I was at base TDY once and the only club open on the base was the NCO club so the NCO's and Officers shared the club. I was sitting at the bar and the major I worked for came and sat down next to me. I said "can I buy you a beer sir". His reply was, "my name is Skip, don't ever call me Sir or Major again whenever we are drinking."

Response by SGT Thomas Sullivan made Nov 5 at 2013 2:29 PM

2013-11-05T14:29:23-05:00

would a LTC not salute a COL? I mean, they are both Colonels right? one is just heavier than the other?<br>

Response by MAJ Laurie H. made Nov 5 at 2013 3:08 PM

2013-11-05T15:08:51-05:00

I can't tell you how many times I've been corrected/scolded/pulled aside and told 'never again' or 'there is no rank among lieutenants' for saulting a 1LT or calling him 'sir' or her 'ma'am.' At BOLC saluting a 1LT was like shouting to the world "I'M NEW HERE!" It just wasn't done past day 3.

For the 1LT's I work with, a salute seems acceptable the first time you see them in the morning, but after that it gets you a glare.

I for one would never really expect a salute from a 2LT as a 1LT, and not a 'ma'am' once we had a working relationship.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Nov 5 at 2013 3:27 PM

2013-11-05T15:27:30-05:00

Here's the thing since this has just gotten out of control. The question was should. The answer is yes. The reason is regulations, several of them.

If the question was do? well that would be different because obviously y'all don't. (at least on this forum)

I wonder if Generals salute each other or do they have an "understanding" too?

Response by PFC Joshua Hagen made Nov 5 at 2013 7:03 PM

2013-11-05T19:03:08-05:00

Regs are regs....I don't see where the issue is here, subordinates are to salute their seniors. The problem that's causing this is that those who have the seniority that are seeing this aren't enforcing it. A senior enlisted (E-7 to E-9) can't tell a 2LT what he's SUPPOSED to do (God have mercy if it was a PVT making the same mistake lol), so it falls on the higher ranking officers. We have a saying in the Corrections world, "if you see it and do nothing, you're just as guilty."

Response by TSgt Eric Garcia made Nov 5 at 2013 7:14 PM

2013-11-05T19:14:27-05:00

Yes, hence the higher ranking, what the HELL is the US Military becoming

Response by TSgt Eric Garcia made Nov 5 at 2013 7:16 PM

2013-11-05T19:16:06-05:00

The 2nd Lt is junior in rank and must salute his/her superior, what the HELL is wrong with the US military

Response by TSgt Eric Garcia made Nov 5 at 2013 7:31 PM

2013-11-05T19:31:29-05:00

sorry all, I disagree, if someone out ranks you, they out rank you. A 2nd Lt PL, is still out ranked by a 1st Lt, now your putting symantics in it.

Response by LTC John Phillips made Nov 5 at 2013 8:34 PM

2013-11-05T20:34:27-05:00

In my career, only once did I see this as a requirement despite the AR. There once was a DIVARTY Commander in the 101st ABN that not only wanted 2LT to salute 1LT...he would send Mr. Vice into the coat room of the O-Club to count the hats...the Blues saucer hat that many did not buy...during our formal Dining In's. A complete jerk in my opinion. He would get his joey out of screwing with all of the officers in the DIVARTY. Times when he would start screwing with people...and he did often...at these formal functions, we would all burst out and start singing Rendezvous With Destiny, the Division song and he would have to stop and sing along.  It really pissed him off.  I'll spar his name....1995 DIVARTY Commander. 

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2013 9:09 PM

2013-11-05T21:09:03-05:00

Based on some of the comments on this thread, here is an article that I encourage folks to read concerning the topic. Colonel Rearick in my opinion, hits the nail on the head with this article.

Lets break the cycle of following unwritten rules and cherry picking what rules to follow

Commentary - No rank amongst lieutenants

I often have the privilege of talking to groups of young officers and enlisted on a broad range of subjects. The one question I get most often is, "What is the key to a successful Air Force career?" T...

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2013 9:14 PM

2013-11-05T21:14:46-05:00

Based on some of the comments posted in this discussion, I encourage folks to read this article concerning this very same subject written by Col Rearick.

As an NCO that has been around for awhile now, it makes our jobs a lot more difficult when leaders cherry pick what rules to follow and create "unwritten rules".

http://www.goodfellow.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123204054

Commentary - No rank amongst lieutenants

Response by SGT James P. Davidson, MSM made Nov 5 at 2013 10:02 PM

2013-11-05T22:02:15-05:00

One more piece of advice - especially since reading here that even soldiers are unclear as to what the regs say in black and white: I learned this from my recruiter (who is also my best friend(of 27 years)'s dad):

"When in doubt: Salute!"

It's better to get giggled at for saluting a private than get embarrassed (by ass-chewing or losing credibility or setting a bad example) for not saluting an O-grade above yours.

Response by MAJ Jeff Coulter made Nov 5 at 2013 10:12 PM

2013-11-05T22:12:21-05:00

While I do believe that, as a mentor once told me, rank among LTs is like virtue among prostitutes, the bottom line is that a 1LT outranks a 2LT and merits a salute.

Response by MAJ Jeff Coulter made Nov 5 at 2013 10:18 PM

2013-11-05T22:18:02-05:00

While I personally believe that rank among LTs is like virtue among prostitutes, the standard is the standard. It was difficult for me as a former NCO and newly-minted 2LT to see the average 1LT as a warrior peer worthy of a salute (remember that the salute originated as a greeting between warriors to show that each one was not a threat to the other). The bottom line is that, as a leader, you have to swallow your pride and follow regs in all things. Joe and Jane are watching to see what right looks like.

Response by SFC Mark Sutton made Nov 5 at 2013 10:25 PM

2013-11-05T22:25:57-05:00

<p>The Junior salutes, If a one star salutes a two star then the 2LT should salute the 1LT.</p><p>It is simple this is how it has been done and should be done!</p><p> </p>

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Nov 5 at 2013 10:27 PM

2013-11-05T22:27:56-05:00

Debate 101.  When you try to justify your wrong by comparing it to other wrongs, you've taken the credibility of your argument from yourself.<div>It's like saying yes I was late, but so was this guy and that guy.  Oh ok then, you're good to go.</div>

Response by CPT Mike M. made Nov 6 at 2013 7:26 AM

2013-11-06T07:26:05-05:00

<p>As much as the uniform belief has been that 2LTs salute 1LTs, you'd think it was the case and was universal everywhere. From West Point to my first, second, third, now fourth duty station I've NEVER seen a 2LT be required to salute a 1LT. I don't think it should be either considering there's hardly a difference in them. It should probably be more position specific if anything. There are those who get their commission and then spend so much time at follow on schools (Ranger, Airborne, Sapper, etc) that they report to their first unit already or nearly a 1LT. Meanwhile there are 2LTs who headed straight to their first unit right away and already have combat leadership experience before they get promoted. I'd say more credit goes to that than the guy who went through an entire rank in the schoolhouse. Not to mention there are 2LT and 1LT Platoon leaders, 2LT and 1LT XOs, 2LT and 1LT staff officers. It's a completely interchangeable rank/position situation. </p><p>So when it comes down to it, if there was going to be a change made - and I'm not necessarily advocating a need for one, just saying if there is, then this is how I think it should be - I think Platoon Leaders should salute the Executive Officers, regardless of rank difference and XOs should salute the CO regardless of rank difference.</p>

Response by CPT Joseph Pennella made Nov 6 at 2013 1:01 PM

2013-11-06T13:01:13-05:00

Yes.  The answer is yes, you should.  Behind closed doors you can call each other by your first name all you want, but in public be sure to drop the "sir/ma'am" and render a salute.  Lead by example.<div><br></div><div>Having been an officer, I understand the opposing view: a 2LT is promoted to 1LT simply by staying alive and not doing anything illegal so what's the real difference?  This does diminish the rank of 1LT (as it compares to the previous rank), but does it do so anymore than the rest of the officer ranks?  When I was in, 2006-2011, promotion was essentially automatic from 2LT to MAJ (even MAJ to LTC promotion rates were in the 90% range).  As long as you didn't do something illegal, you made Captain, then Major...and if you were even semi competent, you made LTC.  Try not saluting someone O-3 to O-5 just because they automatically made promotion.  </div><div><br></div><div>I hear things are changing however and promotion is now much harder (which I applaud). </div>

Response by CPT Cedric Rice made Nov 6 at 2013 1:21 PM

2013-11-06T13:21:15-05:00

when I was a 2Lt and a Llt I never did it or expected it from a junior Lt. maybe it was technically incorrect but in the case of the rank of Lt the 1Lt was more of a big brother and mentor type figure...the respect for the rank was there but at the same time I felt that I could approach the senior Lt at any time informally about any problem or situation and get good sound brotherly advice...

..as a 1st LT I felt that it was my duty to help the junior officer and be a guide for him...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2013 1:25 PM

2013-11-06T13:25:08-05:00

I'm not sure what the issue is, Sir. To me, this is like asking, 'Should a Lt. Colonel salute a Colonel?'. Just as there are several difference between a Light and a Full Bird, much of the army recognizes differences between a Lt. and (excuse the phrase) a Butter Bar. But regardless of opinion, regulation clearly states the proper procedure. And besides, it's actions like these that create controversy. If some witnesses the failure of an O-1 to render a salute to an O-2, they might immediately see it as an act of disrespect or a general lack of respect for traditional customs and courtesies by both officers. Rule of thumb for me in training was, "When in doubt, salute. No one ever gets smoked for saluting."

Response by CPT David Johnson made Nov 6 at 2013 4:43 PM

2013-11-06T16:43:18-05:00

<p>I agree with the masses. a LT is an LT "." It is as the upper ranks would say a license to make mistakes and learn, so as a CPT, you will be a good commander. </p><p>As a new butter bar, I had the honor of having an excellent SFC as my first Plt Sgt, to learn from my mistakes. </p><p>RLTW</p>

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2013 7:39 PM

2013-11-06T19:39:45-05:00

BLUF: No.  This is due in part to the fact that the two ranks are essentially interchangeable in terms of position.  Example: as a 1LT I had an XO who was a 2LT.  Should he have saluted me, even though he outranked me in terms of position?  Of course not.  It is widely understood that 1LTs and 2LTs have a different relationship than that between any other two officer ranks.  1LTs are often expected to train and mentor 2LTs as peers, not as a superior/subordinate.  Adding a salute to those scenarios would simply decrease the effectiveness of that relationship.<br>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2013 11:58 PM

2013-11-06T23:58:58-05:00

Sir, it only seems obvious to me, 1LT outranks 2LT, plain and simple...salute them and give them the courtesy they have earned over a 2LT.

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Nov 7 at 2013 12:13 AM

2013-11-07T00:13:32-05:00

Allow me to ask another question. What is the big deal about rendering a salute? Is it a hardship to raise your arm and render a sign of respect to another service member? Personally I say salute show respect and move on. Odd as it may seem, I've seen enlisted salute other enlisted as a sign of respect (notably one of my Drill Instructors saluted another Drill Instructor from another company out of friendship and respect). Should it be done according to regulations yes, but the reality of the world is that although something may be in the regulations it isn't always the end all be all of the exact way business is conducted.

I say do it unless otherwise directed, and if you're a 1Lt saluted by a new 2Lt, return the salute and chuckle about it to yourself later in private. No harm done.

Response by SFC Gary Fox made Nov 7 at 2013 8:52 AM

2013-11-07T08:52:37-05:00

The Army has many traditions that many of you NCOs follow that are really out of regulations. If you really want to follow customs and courtesies, then you should never call a First Sergeant, "Top:" any NCO "Sarge:," Command Sergeant Major, "Sergeant Major;" or Lieutenant Colonel, "Colonel." There are several holding the rank of Staff Sergeant and Sergeant First Class who have participated in this discussion who are called "Sergeant" by their subordinates. Do you correct them and tell them to address you by your proper rank? Better yet, do you correct your superiors when they call you "Sergeant?" I doubt it.

I've served several different Battalion and Brigade Commanders who normally addressed their subordinate officers by their first names, unless they were mad at them for something.

I grew up in the Army as my father made it a career and I served 25 years. It was very rare during my lifetime I saw a 2LT salute a 1LT. Those rare times I did see it occur, the 1LT receiving the salute either laughed it off or told the 2LT not to do it again. I never had a situation where the morale and good order was ever disrupted because a 2LT didn't salute a 1LT.

Response by MAJ Rick Breneman made Nov 7 at 2013 9:06 AM

2013-11-07T09:06:14-05:00

2LT = gold bar; 1LT = silver bar. MAJ = gold leaf; LTC = silver leaf. No matter how senior a 2LT is or how junior a 1LT is, he always outranks the 2LT. It took me a while as a 2LT to get used to a CW4 saluting me. . .

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2013 9:12 AM

2013-11-07T09:12:25-05:00

The other day I watched our Battalion CSM salute a brand new WO1 who had
just recently returned from WOCS. The WO1 looked surprised, embarrassed and
proud all at once and as for the CSM, he was doing what was right and
respectful and thought nothing else of it. It warmed my little NCO
heart. Be the example.<br>

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2013 9:25 AM

2013-11-07T09:25:52-05:00

I am an O2 and when I was an O1 I saluted the O2 because it was the right thing to do in front of the troops. Now when and O1 does not salute me, I do not say anything, but I have great Senior NCOs who talk to anyone who fails to salute a officer that is senior to them. Plus, it keeps you in the habit for the even higher ranking officers. 

Response by LTC Dallas Powell made Nov 7 at 2013 10:27 AM

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Question for every NCO who thinks LT's should salute each other: do you yell "AT EASE!" every time any NCO who outranks you walks into the office or passes by the smoking area? Of course you don't. Stop complaining that LT's don't salute each other.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2013 5:30 PM

2013-11-07T17:30:41-05:00

Yes. Always salute a senior officer. This should NOT be a question that someone contemplates.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2013 6:20 PM

2013-11-07T18:20:58-05:00

Regardless of holding the same title of Lieutenant, if one is senior to the other then a salute is mandatory and also a sign of respect.

Response by CPT Ray Doeksen made Nov 8 at 2013 12:42 AM

2013-11-08T00:42:52-05:00

Chalk it up to a 2LT being an noob and an idiot or colorblind between silver/gold (situational idiot, not a permanent condition) ... obviously a LTC salutes a COL, any 2LT should know well and full that they ought to salute a 1LT. 2LTs are worrying about which foot to step off with most of the time (I know I was, as a cadet and 2LT) and aren't comfortable enough with their rank to know what to do with it.

Response by CPT Ray Doeksen made Nov 8 at 2013 12:53 AM

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"What if a 1LT walks towards a CPT and a 2LT walking together? Should the 2LT not give the salute to the 1LT even though the 1LT was primarily saluting to the CPT? Answer: the 2LT salutes with the CPT and the 1LT salutes first, not because of the lack of respect from junior LT to senior LT."

Simple regs and rules cover this don't they? The 1LT should salute the CPT, the 2LT should salute the 1LT, at EXACTLY the same time. The CPT is going to return the salute to the 1LT and everybody can hold the salute for long enough that everyone gets saluted! Respect!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2013 5:15 AM

2013-11-08T05:15:27-05:00

This Thread is showing the grave difference in NCO's and Officers. Obviously this isn't across the board and there are Officers who always do the right thing and NCO's who don't, but NCO's are expected to enforce ALL standards. So when soldiers cross the line we fix them because that's what the Regulations tell us to enforce. CHAIN OF COMMAND has implemented these Rules and Regulations. 4 Stars, SecDef etc. So who are we to NOT do whats right? Why do Senior Enlisted and Officers think it's ok to not salute, or to put their hands in their pockets? I don't agree with the outdated Regulations but when I don't enforce one why the other? My job isn't to take it upon myself and decide which ones are important and which ones are not and neither is it anyone's job here.<br>

Response by MG Peter Bosse made Nov 8 at 2013 1:13 PM

2013-11-08T13:13:03-05:00

When I was a young 2LT, back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth, my company commander was a 1LT. He was a great leader and a great mentor. I would have considered it disrespectful not to salute him. Less because of his rank, but more because of who he was and the position that he held. Should we feel any different about LTC's saluting COL's or BG's saluting MG's? Of course not. Each is entitled to a salute IAW military regulations and customs and courtesies. I would feel bad if I hadn't rendered a salute to that 1LT who helped me get to where I am today!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2013 2:09 PM

2013-11-08T14:09:28-05:00

Is the 1LT senior to a 2LT? Yes. Should a 2LT salute a 1LT? Yes. Should an E7 salute a 2LT just because he/she is a more experienced and knowledgeable than the 2LT? Yes, because the 2LT is senior to them. Once we stop showing this respect to each other, the troops will see this and think they can get away with it, just as MSG Cunningham stated.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2013 9:10 PM

2013-11-09T21:10:21-05:00

In my opinion Salute is different and yes a 2LT should
salute a 1LT. Is showing respect to the person who earn the rank. It doesn’t matter
they are both LT. Now it’s different if a 1SG talk to a MSG…. Who’s going to
stay in parade rest?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2013 10:13 PM

2013-11-09T22:13:26-05:00

If they outrank you and are a warrant or a commissioned officer then you should salute them.  That 1LT has been around a bit longer his bar is tarnished, he has earned the right to be saluted by a junior officer.  That's just my opinion.

Response by 1st Lt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2013 5:17 PM

2013-11-10T17:17:00-05:00

Should a regulation ever depend on the situation? I think it depends...

Currently, I'm a second lieutenant at a training base (Undergraduate Pilot Training). There are many second lieutenants here for training, and a good number of first lieutenants going through the same program. If I do not know the first lieutenant walking toward me, I will always salute him/her... out of respect, because of regulations, and because I don't know that person, so I don't know how he/she will react to me saluting. "When it doubt, whip it out" was what I was taught (haha). Worst that could happen? We share a laugh.

I also have 1st Lieutenants in my training class that I'm becoming familiar with. I don't salute them because I see them on a normal basis, I'm familiar with them, and they're in training just the same as me. Frankly, if I did salute, he/she would probably think I was doing it sarcastically. We are also removed from most of the enlisted airmen on base though, so the third party appearances isn't a factor. If the 1Lt is an instructor pilot, I'm definitely saluting.

In a different situation (with subordinates and/or enlisted personnel nearby), I think it gets dicey. My rule: If I don't know 'em, salute 'em.

Funny topic also, because I have an O-3 going through the same program. He told us not to call him 'sir' or salute. Fair enough, in my opinion.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 11 at 2013 7:41 AM

2013-11-11T07:41:41-05:00

So have any NCOs ever heard any of your Soldiers question why a 2LT not salute 1LT?

Response by PFC Matthew Bahr made Nov 11 at 2013 12:50 PM

2013-11-11T12:50:56-05:00

Out of respect they should but I also see both sides of the coin. Obviously someone that is not an O-1 should offer a salute. It really depends on how much it went to their head in my opinion.

Response by CWO2 Shelby DuBois made Nov 12 at 2013 9:39 AM

2013-11-12T09:39:23-05:00

You don't salute the person, you salute the rank. Common courtesy and professionalism dictate it. However, location and surroundings may dictate otherwise..such as school setting where there are dozens of mixed ranks milling about, it would make no sense to walk around with your arm crooked. I do remember that as a Sgt, a young 2nd Lt pulled me aside and chewed me out for not saluting him as we passed while at the doors of the PX. When he was through with his recitation of the rules and regs I apologized and then reminded the young Lt. that when he saw me we were more than 20 paces from each other and that a salute was not required. He turned red faced , I think because his wife or date was watching him get schooled, and I then said, "By your leave, Sir!"...at which time, somewhat flustered, he saluted ME...and I returned his salute and smiled at his wife as she smiled back....

Response by SGT Corey Franks made Nov 12 at 2013 9:48 AM

2013-11-12T09:48:13-05:00

Yes, should a CSM salute a 2LT....yes!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2013 11:11 AM

2013-11-12T11:11:31-05:00

When I first became a platoon sergeant, my PL and I were walking to the DFAC in Afghanistan and he walked by a 1LT without saluting. Of course, I, being charged with his development/mentorship, talked to him about it for hours upon hours later. I did not and still do not understand why they don't salute 1LTs but it is reality and that is all that really matters here. I will say in their defense, Soldiers aren't expected to say "At Ease" everytime an E5 walks in and out of a room and we still say "At Ease" when the CSM walks in and there are officers present. I believe it is just one of those things I don't have to understand, just know.

Response by LT Stephen Amiaga made Nov 12 at 2013 12:08 PM

2013-11-12T12:08:04-05:00

Are you kidding? that's how you develop biceps as a "Butter Bar." You have to salute everybody, either a senior officer (almost every officer is...) or returning salutes from every Enlisted Servicemember and Warrant Officer. Don't worry, by the time you're an O-3, you'll learn to carry paperwork and nod, and your senior NCO's will carry their coffee cups in their right hand so as to not bother you.

Response by Sgt Lonnie Rush made Nov 12 at 2013 3:07 PM

2013-11-12T15:07:59-05:00

Why is this really even a question?<br>

Response by LT Melissa Metz made Nov 13 at 2013 10:29 AM

2013-11-13T10:29:23-05:00

I agree with what most have said.
A salute is a military courtesy as a sign of respect and recognition of achievement in the military. Not to salute a senior officer is akin to passing someone without a respectful greeting. This is not how I was raised, and certainly not what I saw when I was in the service. It's also a bit disappointing on a personal level ... the world seems so atune to technology that we've lost some of the most basic of human courtesies.

Response by LT Melissa Metz made Nov 13 at 2013 10:33 AM

2013-11-13T10:33:42-05:00

I agree with most who have posted here. A salute is a courtesy and sign of recognition of achievement to a senior. Not to salute a senior would be akin to walking past someone without a greeting. This is not how I was raised, and certainly not what was expected when I was in the service. On a personal note, it's a bit disappointing as well. Nowadays people seem so in-tune with the latest technology, that we've lost the most basic of human courtesies. My hope is that in the military, this time honored tradition will be preserved.

Response by LCDR Thomas Combs made Nov 13 at 2013 8:05 PM

2013-11-13T20:05:30-05:00

I'm a coastie, but I was in the army for 9 years, had three platoons, and one company command. I can't believe that this topic has produced such a volume of discussion. Aren't there bigger issues in the army worthy of debate than whether a 2LT salutes a 1LT? It's been the tradition for decades, and if it hasn't caused a breakdown in the chain of command after after all that time and three wars, it probably isn't going to do so in the future. As we used to say, honor among lieutenants is like honor among... well...ladies of the evening.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2013 2:10 AM

2013-11-14T02:10:31-05:00

This is insane. As a senior NCO, officers entrust me to enforce policies. This should not even be an issue when black and white states plainly they should. No where in the regulation does it state...Because they are Lieutenants its okay not to salute. Just because I am not an officer does that in any shape mean I don't know how to read the regulation. People want leeway when it conveniences them. That's the same excuse someone gives me about why their hair or nails look the way they do...when I correct them that is. If you don't like it, change the black and white, and then I will enforce it. As you so rightly expect me too as an NCO.

Response by Sgt Robert Gardner made Nov 14 at 2013 7:59 AM

2013-11-14T07:59:03-05:00

Yes!

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2013 8:19 AM

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Ultimately, it's a sign of respect, for the person and the rank. There's always the option to openly discuss it as well. You could salute, then address it with the person you're saluting.

Eventually, you may notice it's similar to peers that are a year group ahead of you. With each rank I've held, there are always multiple cases of people you know that will be promoted before you are due to an earlier year group. It's out of respect of the rank/person that you first address them by the new higher rank, and let them say you're still on a first name basis.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2013 1:20 PM

2013-11-14T13:20:35-05:00

During my time in a rifle company we always abided by the "one-bar rule," meaning that 2ndLts and 1stLts were considered peers and didn't salute each other or call each other sir. The only exception was the relationship between platoon commanders and company XOs or COs who happened to be 1stLts--platoon commanders referred to XOs as "XO" or "Lieutenant Smith" even if they were the same rank. That was done mainly so everyone else in the company understood the relationship between a platoon commander and XO, seeing how in many cases we were peers who came through TBS/IOC together and were friends off duty. I can remember my instructors at IOC explaining those informal rules to us, so I don't think they were unique to my battalion.

We only had a few CWOs in our battalion--the NBC officer and the Gunner are the only ones who come to mind right now--and they were basically treated as on par with Lts so they acted accordingly in their dealings with captains and majors. But since Gunners have 15+ years of experience and work on the BnCO's primary staff on par with the S-3 or S-4, they get a certain amount of deference from Lts.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2013 2:33 PM

2013-11-14T14:33:57-05:00

It is a show of respect for rank no matter what service. All shall abide by the rules and regulations and, above all, show some good discipline with proper customs and courtesies. They don't have to respect the person, but respect the rank at least. If they didn't want to show customs and courtesies then shouldn't have joined the military.

Just my 2 cents.

OOHRAH, Sir!

Response by SFC Michael Patterson made Nov 14 at 2013 3:21 PM

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Sir not quite sure why this is even an issue. The 2LT should be rendering the proper courtesies to the 1LT. By not following this standard the 2LT is setting a poor example for their subordinates. BLUF is do the right thing regardless of the situation.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2013 11:16 AM

2013-11-15T11:16:12-05:00

Look at an MToE or TDA. What positions are slotted for an O1 on an MToE and TDA/ What positions for an O2?

Response by SSgt Tony Edwards made Nov 15 at 2013 6:44 PM

2013-11-15T18:44:14-05:00

As many have already said, this is a show of respect for the Rank/Position of authority. If you make light of this you lose the chain of command , if you lose the chain of command you lose order, if you lose order you have chaos and the mission what ever it is cannot be obtained.

Response by SFC Anthony Johnson made Nov 15 at 2013 6:59 PM

2013-11-15T18:59:20-05:00

I required my subordinates to render proper honors for respect of the effort to hold that rank. As should a 2nd LT salute the 1st LT, in most cases he has earned it in one way or another. the respect is for the professional and should not be questioned. It is and always should be rendered to your senior.

Response by COL Michael Simone made Nov 15 at 2013 8:28 PM

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<p>The salute should always be rendered to an officer of superior rank.  When I was a 2LT over 35 years ago, and on a first-name basis with many friends who were 1LT, I made a point of addressing them properly in all public/official settings. Senior Warrant Officers would do the same for me as a brand new 2LT.</p><p> Over the years I continued to do the same to officers of the same grade but who happened to be in a more senior position; for example, when I was an S-3  I always addressed the BN XO (a good personal friend, by the way) by his title or "Sir" in official settings. When I was a COL commander and had several other colonels (also good friends) serving in my command, they did the same for me in official settings.  I never had to tell anyone to do so; they were all professional military and knew what to do.</p><p> </p><p>   By the way, I also observed the same correct degree of deference among the outstanding NCOs with whom I had the honor serve for more than 30 years. I recall many instances of an artillery section chief SSG addressing an SSG acting chief of battery (E-7 position), or an SFC  platoon sergeant addressing an SFC in an acting First Sergeant position, by the proper title whenever they were in a situation where subordinates might observe them.  Correctly addressing a superior is not only an obligation of service, it is a privilege.</p>

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2013 8:17 AM

2013-11-16T08:17:26-05:00

No, that is ridiculous. LTs who are full of themselves are headed for trouble. LTs should support each other and help each other grown. When you are an LT, you should be in the learning mode. You should be proud of being an officer but you need to understand that there are tens of thousands of LTs in the Army. I agree with LTC Shebert's comments but I spent my 2LT days in South Korea and LTs did not salute each other.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2013 5:07 PM

2013-11-16T17:07:09-05:00

Rosa, I have always afforded 1LT's a salute and the greeting of the day. I have also frequently been corrected or scolded by those same 1LT's - told "There is no rank amongst Lieutenants" a quote supposedly attributed to President George Washington.<br><br>However, the right thing to do is to afford them the courtesy.<br>

Response by MAJ Ted Nagel made Nov 16 at 2013 5:30 PM

2013-11-16T17:30:03-05:00

No, unless the 1st LT is in a direct supervisory position to the 2nd LT. Otherwise an LT is an LT.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2013 5:46 PM

2013-11-16T17:46:15-05:00

A 1LT is to a 2LT what a SPC is to a PFC. IF that 1LT is not in a command position, then he, by doctrine and MToE, is exactly like a 2LT...only he has more pay and experience.

Response by MAJ Ted Nagel made Nov 17 at 2013 10:13 AM

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Even the regulation is worded vaguely probably for a reason. The wording, which many have pointed out says something to the effect of a salute shall be rendered to a person to whom a salute is required. It does not say "To every person of senior rank."  The regulation is called "Customs and Courtesies" and yet many of you want to dismiss this custom. The standing custom between officers (this is an issue between officers) is that 2LTs do not salute 1LTs. That is the custom. Therefore it is within the regulation's wording of rendering a salute to persons for whom you must render a salute. The officer corps establishes its own customs. Would the NCOS corps appreciate us coming in and handling customs between NCOs? It has absolutely no relationship to respecting or not respecting the individual wearing the rank. I have saluted many I did not personally respect as I'm sure everyone who has spent a day in the army has done.  The Army is an organization of long-standing customs. This is just one of them. 

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2013 12:48 PM

2013-11-17T12:48:11-05:00

This is one of those issues that, while the regulation says something, most often it goes ignored. I have seen a 2LT walk up to a 1LT and just start talking. It is a direct correlation to a PFC standing a parade rest for a SPC. By doctrine, the PFC is supposed to, but nobody enforces that rule.

Should it be corrected? Yes. However, unless the 1LT says something it will continue.

Response by SFC Gary Fox made Nov 18 at 2013 8:32 AM

2013-11-18T08:32:14-05:00

I really don't know why NCOs are really involved in this discussion about whether or not 2LTs should salute 1LTs. That's business between officers. I would be willing to wager that many of the NCOs who have participated in this debate hate it when officers involve themselves in NCO business.

There are much more important things NCOs should worry about than something like this.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2013 9:14 AM

2013-11-18T09:14:16-05:00

Well, the military salute is
a gesture of respect for the rank and if the person carrying it is inspirational
it is even more appropriate. Having said this, please allow me to remind you of
this classic quote by MAJ Richard
Winters as CPT Sobel bypasses him without rendering the proper salute, as read
or seen in Band of Brothers; “We salute the rank, not the man.”

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2013 6:21 PM

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An O1 should always salute an O2. End of discussion. It doesn't matter what the positional authority of the O1 is at the time. Military etiquette and regulations require this respect be paid.

Likewise, when saluted, the senior Officer must return the salute in kind. It, too, is the proper military etiquette. Regardless of positional authority.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2013 11:13 AM

2013-11-19T11:13:57-05:00

Sir, You answered your own question, ALL ARMY PERSONNEL IN UNIFORM ARE REQUIRED TO SALUTE....we are not allowed to pick and choose which regulations we will follow. BE the example, KNOW the standard, DO the right thing.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2013 12:59 PM

2013-11-19T12:59:27-05:00

The way I was "raised" was "there is no rank among lieutenants," therefore the general rule is no.

A reason presented to me when I was a 2LT was that if you examine the MTOE, you will not find a position for a 2LT; they are all for 1LTs (my MSG was attempting to explain to me how 2LTs just don't exist or are mythical). Being of a higher rank typically implies being prepared for or assuming more responsibility (which is why my PSG with 20+ years saluted me as a 2LT with 18 months; I was responsible for him). Therefore, all LTs in an MTOE unit are filling a 1LT position on the MTOE, and are therefore due the same respect, to include from each other. However, COLs and LTCs and different GOs have delineated levels of responsibility, which is why the rules don't blur there.

Exception: if the 1LT is in a position of authority (i.e. Company Commander) then I would expect the junior LTs (1st and 2nd) to show the respect due the position, to include calling "Sir/Ma'am," especially in public. Similar to the courtesy afforded by other COLs to the Chief of Staff that I've seen in good units.

Response by SGT Hal Johnson made Nov 19 at 2013 2:58 PM

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always taught salute a officer that person is a commissioned officer. regardless of time in grade a2nd LT will salute all officers above him as a pvt thru E9 will salute all officers. understand the I got more experience then him/her mind set remember you don't have to respect the person but respect the rank. train that officer to standard if your gonna gage respect for that officer by YOUR knowledge then YOU need to bring that person up to speed have ALL the ncos in that plt train him/her 1 that officer gets that OCS school stuff out of there head not all of its bad but not all good in the real world 2you get to know him/her as a person and like wise that officer learns to know his ncos think and will respond. or act

Response by MSgt Joseph Haynes made Nov 20 at 2013 8:06 PM

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I don't understand why this is posted as a discussion question. The standards are clear, junior ranking members ALWAYS salute the senior ranking and acknowledge the senior rank. If a member isn't willing to salute a senior ranking officer, then they should reconsider why they are in the military.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2013 1:47 AM

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I actually got clowned on by a 1LT for throwing him a salute. I quote: "Dude, you don't need to salute me, we're both LT's. And quit calling me "sir"!"

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2013 9:19 AM

2013-11-21T09:19:01-05:00

Does a CPL stand at parade rest when talking to a SGT?? Standards ladies and gents..thats the problem in the army today

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2013 9:32 AM

2013-11-22T09:32:54-05:00

Does a CPL stand at parade rest when addressing a SGT?? Standards ladies and gents. Time to get back to the basics

Response by SFC Michael Boulanger made Nov 22 at 2013 10:43 AM

2013-11-22T10:43:35-05:00

UHH..... Yes.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2013 10:51 AM

2013-11-22T10:51:23-05:00

Sir,

in short, yes. Lead by example. If the 2LTs do not salute the 1LTs then why should the 1LTs salute the CPTs? I have always heard the old "there is no rank among LTs" crap and have had to sort it out on numerous occasions. You can't demand respect from your Soldiers and then not show it to your superiors.

Response by Lt Col Luis A. Rojas made Nov 22 at 2013 11:39 AM

2013-11-22T11:39:25-05:00

Good question, thanks for asking.  Let me just answer it with a quote from General Patton; “If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?”

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2013 9:14 PM

2013-11-22T21:14:13-05:00

I find myself to be a moderate when it comes to this. In the Company area, I go by what the culture is at that unit. Outside of the Company area, it is proper to salute 1LT's. I get looked at funny most of the time, but I would not want to set an improper example. I don't know why I see the Company area as being different.....probably because we are constantly passing each other and trying to work.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2013 9:21 AM

2013-11-23T09:21:50-05:00

Simply put, yes. While there may be 1LTs out there who don't want to be saluted by their 2LT brethren, it's still military courtesy to do so. I've known warrant officers that hate to be saluted by other warrant officers (and maybe that's just the culture), but let's stick to garrison rules and discipline and salute any commissioned officer at a higher rank than you.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2013 3:55 PM

2013-11-23T15:55:29-05:00

The question is, why wouldn't you salute someone of higher rank? Regardless of how you feel towards that person, you salute the rank because that is how things are supposed to work. I understand not saluting in the company area, due to the constant passing and what not, but anywhere else, this should not even be a question. Just my E-4 opinion though.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 3:05 PM

2013-11-24T15:05:20-05:00

No- I remember thinking that I should, but the 1LT that I was going to salute saw it start and stopped me. We all worked for the same person and did the same job.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 3:52 PM

2013-11-24T15:52:11-05:00

No question. The 2LT must salute the 1LT per the AR. Your doing it right sir, keep it up.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 4:06 PM

2013-11-24T16:06:36-05:00

Yes. Why not?

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 2:51 AM

2013-11-25T02:51:16-05:00

A 2LT must salute a 1LT since they are subordinate to them by rank. 2LT must lead by example as they will one day get promoted to 1LT and will expect 2LT to salute them.

You may not like the person but you will resect the rank always. When in doubt Salute.

Response by Cpl Benjamin Long made Nov 25 at 2013 6:58 AM

2013-11-25T06:58:38-05:00

it is required by law so there should be no argument here....

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 10:06 AM

2013-11-25T10:06:00-05:00

Yes the longstyanding tradition of saluting one another is a respect and authority measure set way back when General Washington commanded.... To caveat as NCO's go through school I was an E-6 going to parade rest and attention for peers that were my Cadre.... A little humbleness, humility and pride set aside will develop stronger leaders... Good leadership in my time always told me I will have my chance and one day you never know I may be a 1SG or CSM running my own Company / BN. So yes absolutely officers junior to those present should absolutely salute or present arms. Its a miltary pride/heritage look and being professional while doing so reflects greatly upon one's discipline and integrity.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 11:16 AM

2013-11-25T11:16:12-05:00

Yes they should salute, just like a SPC should stand at parade rest when addresssing a SGT. Its only one rank but its about customs and courtesy, and discipline.

Response by LTC Donald (Don) Bachler made Nov 25 at 2013 12:56 PM

2013-11-25T12:56:26-05:00

Absolutely! They are an officer of higher rank, are they not? Now promotions to 1LT are basically automatic (*you have to take action IF you do not want them promoted). It was not so in my day.

My personal feelings are that rank is not earned as an officer, as it really is for enlisted. Officers hold a rank as a position of public trust for a limited time. There can only be so many officers of a certain rank in a certain branch on active duty at any given time. We hold that rank only for a certain time, then we must give it back. We are either promoted based on the belief we are prepared for greater responsibilities, or we are passed over based on the needs of the service and/or our abilities fall short for the next rank. Respect the rank, as someday you will have to give it back for the last time.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2013 4:28 AM

2013-11-26T04:28:47-05:00

I sincerely do not understand why there is a debate about this; this shows what exactly is wrong with the Army of today! The standards are there for a reason, set forth by the Secretary of the Army, Chief of Staff, and Sergeant Major of the Army. Even the old lineage, "You can add to, but not take away from," cannot not apply to "No rank among LTs." We are not in the position, nor place, to be deciding on when to apply the regulations and when not to. This is why there are so many AFN commercials of What Right Looks Like.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2013 4:19 PM

2013-11-26T16:19:35-05:00

Does an E6 stand at parade rest for an E7? (well i would hope so). I do believe a 2LT should salute and render the honor deserved to the 1LT. I see you were an NCO at one point 2LT Rosa and you know the standard. You have obviously come along way in your career for a reason, by keeping the standard. It takes a few seconds from your day to throw the salute up, just do it.

Response by LTJG Robert M. made Nov 27 at 2013 2:06 PM

2013-11-27T14:06:16-05:00

Absolutely! The military salute is a sign of respect, in my time in service I always saluted my superiors and my peers. If not respect for the individual, it is respect for the rank they have attained.

Response by PFC Stephens Clark made Nov 27 at 2013 6:20 PM

2013-11-27T18:20:39-05:00

as a veteran, I say any lower Ranks should Salute Higher Ranks even if its a 2LT to 1LT or even O-1 to a O-2. Respect the rank, and the person they earned the rank. The officers earned the rank, point blank. Should be a no-brainer. I've rubbed elbows with CSM'S, and Officers, as High as a B.General. Honor those w/ higher ranks.

Response by CW2 Geoff Lachance made Nov 27 at 2013 10:28 PM

2013-11-27T22:28:49-05:00

It's all about respect! A 1LT has earned his promotion from 2LT and therefore deserves to be saluted by his subordinates. I was a CW2 and a platoon leader. During O call I was treated as an equal along side of three LT's some 1st and some 2nd. The Commander considered our input equally. Once outside, we honored each other with a salute. No Ego, simply respect!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2013 11:22 PM

2013-11-27T23:22:28-05:00

The standard…is the standard.  I'm actually appalled at the amount of senior officers that are saying that they would pull aside a 1LT for 'making' a 2LT salute them.  When I was a 2LT…I saluted every 1LT I encountered.   You are making-up your own 'standard'…no such thing!  Whether there is an 'unwritten rule' or not - a 1LT outranks a 2LT…period!!

Response by SFC Benjamin Parsons made Nov 28 at 2013 12:01 AM

2013-11-28T00:01:24-05:00

Yep.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2013 6:53 PM

2013-11-28T18:53:11-05:00

We Salute because Regulation and time honored tradition says we should. We do not have to respect all those above us but we must render Salutes.  17 years  Warrant Officer I still LTs because its right, even no matter how much of a pain in the ass some can be.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2013 11:01 PM

2013-11-28T23:01:11-05:00

We honor the rank no questioned asked. You just do it.

Response by PO1 B. Kieth Cooper made Nov 29 at 2013 10:54 AM

2013-11-29T10:54:38-05:00

Regs state that the junior renders the salute as a sign of honor and recognition. No matter if it is one rank it is still junior. That does not stop the hazzing and harrasing of junior officers but that is part of the military also.

Response by 1LT James Avichouser made Nov 29 at 2013 3:11 PM

2013-11-29T15:11:25-05:00

Of course an officer of lesser rank should salute one of higher rank in the right situations. To assume that LT as LT and not differentiate between first and second is insulting to the senior officer's effort and time on the job. It sometimes happens that a company commander can be a 1st lieutenant but seldom that a butter bar will be in that situation. Customs and Courtesies are present for a purpose and they should be observed by all ranks.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Nov 30 at 2013 1:44 AM

2013-11-30T01:44:01-05:00

Over the last few weeks what I have noticed in this thread is this. For all those who support the non-salute siting some unwritten rule, or understanding, or whatever...all the reasons given were for themselves. As if we live in a LT only world. Your arrangements, agreements, whatever you want to call them would be great if it was just you, but you are by far the minority of the Army. There are 100's of thousands of the rest of us watching you who do not share your understanding. What we do share are the regulations. How can you as officers charge US NCO's with enforcing standards when your very first step into the officer world you are admittedly breaking them? With the simple excuse of "it's cool." This blows my mind.

Response by SGT Michael McMahon made Nov 30 at 2013 11:03 PM

2013-11-30T23:03:09-05:00

YES, in the garrison or civilian environment, all lower ranked personnel is to salute any and all officer in a senior rank, period. Those who do not, need to have their military courtesy education refreshed, with a week or two of Extra Duty, to include Company Grade Officers. However in a field or theater environment, that rule goes out the window, as a safety issue.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2013 12:56 AM

2013-12-01T00:56:27-05:00

Everyone knows what the regulation says but this would be the same as a PV2 standing at parade rest for a PFC. When I was a 2LT most of the other LTs didn't really want a salute unless we were doing something official. Reading many of these comments you would think there was a complete breakdown of discipline in the unit but no we had no DUIs, ART 15s or other actions during the 24 months I was there.

Response by CWO5 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2013 7:56 AM

2013-12-01T07:56:04-05:00

I had this conversation a few years after I received my Commission and I joked with some of my friends that things were easier now, I didn't have to look and see if I needed to salute the person I was approaching because now every person I came in contact with was a saluting situation. Didn't really matter who started the salute, it became the same as saying "good morning" when meeting. At first my ego said "I don't salute 01s" but I came to believe that it didn't make my experience any less to afford this gesture, but rather I am now certain that the same 01 I saluted would come to me when they needed help later when before I was not as sure of this. But the bottom line is that it is not what I believe that matters it is required.

Response by COL George Antochy made Dec 2 at 2013 6:24 PM

2013-12-02T18:24:29-05:00

Yes we have heard that there is no rank among Lieutenants. I say it is institutionally dependent. In public a 2LT should salute a 1LT, and walk one to the left and one to the back except when talking. A 2LT should not address a 1LT as 'Sir', unless the 1LT is in a command position. First name basis is permissible except when mixed with Enlisted. Typically a 1LT is the XO, and deserves the position respect.

Response by SSG Laureano Pabon made Dec 2 at 2013 8:29 PM

2013-12-02T20:29:21-05:00

Yes Sir a 2nd LT should salute a 1st LT.

For reasons as stated in LTC. Shewbert comments. " A time honored recognition between warriors".

If I'm correct this time honor goes back to a period where their where Knights.

Where 2nd LT and 1st LT may have the same name "LT", the Rank is very much different as in O-1 and O-2.

Sir when you make 1st LT, you will have 2nd LT's saluting you :)

Response by LCDR George Master made Dec 3 at 2013 10:27 PM

2013-12-03T22:27:24-05:00

It is just a salute. Just do it. It is like a handshake, a wave or other forms of greeting.

If our services are worried about issues like this, we have lost our purpose. E's salute all officers. A junior officer initiates a salute to a senior officer when someone outranks you in any service. I am a retired Naval Officer with 25 years saluting those senior to me and often those of equivalent rank out of respect. I doubt if you will find it anywhere that O1s should not salute O2s in any of the services.

Response by CPT Keith Steinhurst made Dec 4 at 2013 9:17 AM

2013-12-04T09:17:51-05:00

In the Army, strictly speaking, yes, in practice, it depends on the installation. Though the old 'joke' about Lieutenants is that seniroity among them is like chastity among harlots - course I know, but then, it fits. I was commissioned in March of 1993 and was senior (by date of rank) to most of my fellow Lieutenants at Chemical OBC (9-93) and in my immaturity once locked the heals of a 'sister' officer (also a 2LT). We had a couple of 1LTs in our class and two foreign officers (a Saudi 1LT and a Tai CPT) - we were not compelled to salute our US classmates, the Saudi requested the defference due his rank, and it was a 'no-brainer' for the CPT. Generally speaking, CPT is the first rank where you can routinely expect a salute from LTs - this is NOT the case in the Naval service where traditions, customs, and courtesies are both taught and held to standard.

Response by MSgt Francisca Benjamin made Dec 4 at 2013 6:04 PM

2013-12-04T18:04:40-05:00

Yes!

Response by PO1 Scott Eisenhart made Dec 4 at 2013 8:27 PM

2013-12-04T20:27:55-05:00

The junior officer should salute the senior office and hold it until it's returned...... that's how it was when I was in the Navy.... but things have changed, and not necessarily for the best....

Response by PO1 Scott Eisenhart made Dec 4 at 2013 8:51 PM

2013-12-04T20:51:17-05:00

The junior officer should initiate the salute and hold it until such time the senior officer returns the salute.

Response by Cpl Kevin Dover made Dec 5 at 2013 12:55 PM

2013-12-05T12:55:45-05:00

I guess this is one of the many differences between branches of service. Why is this even a question? How about tradition, how about, because your supposed to salute your superiors. A PFC has seniority over a private, they are both boots and don't know jack, BUT one has a senior role. If boot lieutenants don't salute its disrespectful to the uniform, tradition, history and the service as a whole. Discipline is Instant willingness obedience to orders, respect for authority and self reliance. That's what my DI's taught me. Sounds like a bunch beer drinking frat boys that slipped through OCS to me. Pathetic. I had some dumb-ass Lt's.. but I snapped a salute because i earned the right to be there, not because they deserved it.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2013 4:50 AM

2013-12-06T04:50:19-05:00

Without question the 2LT should be saluting the 1LT as the 1LT is senior in grade. If the 1LT doesn't correct the 2LT that doesn't mean it is ok and it should be addressed. A SGT(E5) would stand at parade rest when addressing a senior NCO lets sat a SFC(E7) until told other wise. The E5 can't work off the premise that Im a NCO just like the E7 is a NCO and we both by regulation can be addressed by Sergeant in conversation. While that may be the case the E7 is still senior and should be shown the proper military customs and courtesies which is no different than the 2LT saluting the 1LT.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2013 10:15 PM

2013-12-06T22:15:31-05:00

What is the big deal about raising your arm and rendering a salute? If you are deployed in a forward combat environment, do not salute; If you are in a garrison environment, render a sharp salute. By doing this you honor Our military traditions, your fellow Officers, and yourself. This the nature of exemplifying the Discipline of a professional Soldier, like maintaining a good shave in the field, miles from fresh water.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2013 2:56 PM

2013-12-07T14:56:03-05:00

Sir, The bottom line is the regulation REQUIRES us to render a salute. I believe it is okay to question why some rules are out there; however, we must still follow the rule until it is changed. We cannot be a force that picks and chooses the rules we want to follow.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2013 10:23 PM

2013-12-07T22:23:40-05:00

I agree with the premise of upholding the standard as required by the AR. That being said, I think that a long-standing tradition is another form of standard that has developed over time. I saluted a 1LT after I was first commissioned and was laughed at. My personal view is that if you, the 2LT, and another 1LT are both platoon leaders or on equal ground position-wise, you should not salute him. If he is the company XO or the acting commander, then salute him. That seems to be the standing tradition as I've observed it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2013 6:21 PM

2013-12-08T18:21:29-05:00

respect the rank. A 1LT is still higher ranking.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2013 8:50 PM

2013-12-08T20:50:37-05:00

No. When I was a LT, I did not do this. There are some who will tell you to do so and expect you to salute them.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2013 6:00 PM

2013-12-09T18:00:38-05:00

After reading all these replies in this posting I guess I grew up in a different era and military.

I came into the military through the Marines - customs and courtesy's were demanded and required by all members of the Corps (it didn't matter if you were enlisted, warrant or commissioned).

Each individual that was of a lower grade was expected to render the proper respect to the grades above them - it did not matter what classification you were. This rendering of respect was a custom and courtesy that was up held by all grades in the Marines.

If you can't abide by simple customs and courtesy's in a peacetime situation what do you think will or would happen in warzones?

From my own perspective I really don't understand why this is such a controversial subject. Each grade is a different rank - it doesn't matter if the underlying name is the same.

Response by SFC Benjamin Parsons made Dec 9 at 2013 7:36 PM

2013-12-09T19:36:56-05:00

There have been several references in this thread to the United States of America Marine Corps.

I started out as a Marine.

I distinctly remember a class where it was explained that a prisoner (criminal) was excluded from the privilege of saluting. Privilege.

That simple little thought stayed in my mind throughout my career. It actually brought a tiny piece of joy to my heart to exercise that 'privilege'.

Now, I do not recall the parade rest courtesy being required among the lower enlisted ranks. Sure do when you're referring to NCO's and even when the 1Sgt or SMaj were friends of mine off duty, I participated in that custom in semi and formal occasions, most especially in front of troops and officers. I required it of my soldiers too. Most generally followed by a quick 'at ease'.

What is so hard about this?

Response by SGM Sylvester Ishmael made Dec 9 at 2013 8:02 PM

2013-12-09T20:02:36-05:00

The fact that this is being discussed shows us where we are. The bottom line is follow the regulations & policies. Those who choose to do otherwise create new standards that is contrary to the standard(s). Stop allowing mediocrity to rule the greatest Armed service in the world.

Response by CH (MAJ) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2013 8:04 AM

2013-12-10T08:04:59-05:00

I was taught that there is no rank between Lieutenants. The salute is a courtesy, and hardly seems appropriate between LTs.

Response by MSgt Norman Chaney made Dec 11 at 2013 4:48 PM

2013-12-11T16:48:02-05:00

I will never forget 1Lt Forman at the Utapao BWS. He made Capt and for 9 months he still answered the phone "Loootenant Foreman speakin'" We would correct him and he would say "Oh, that's right, I got promoted." Was always terrified I would see his name on the O-6 list.

Response by MSgt Norman Chaney made Dec 11 at 2013 4:49 PM

2013-12-11T16:49:46-05:00

I don't even see a question. The regs are clear...so is the 2Lt's duty. Nuff said.

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Dec 11 at 2013 6:33 PM

2013-12-11T18:33:45-05:00

Officers need to remember that Enlisted are 'entitled' to that salute too. You just get it first because of your rank. <div><br></div><div>I recently was surprised by a Major who actually remembered that. I had my hands full and gave the greeting of the day as he passed and he returned my verbal salute with a physical one. </div>

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Dec 11 at 2013 11:06 PM

2013-12-11T23:06:14-05:00

I am amazed and surprised by the different view points between Commissioned and Non-Commissioned officers. I think perhaps that the NCO Corps takes the martial aspect of the Army far more seriously. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think it is acceptable for the officers to do what they want among themselves, however all of us with any rank of consequence must exemplify the standard around Jr. Enlisted. I think it is also important for the Commissioned corps to back up the NCOs when they try and enforce these traditions, customs, and courtesies on the n00bs and each other. I had a (staff) Captain that I have a tremendous amount of respect for as a leader and a man sum it up like this, "Sergeant, I don't give a damn if you or any other NCO fails to salute me.. but Privates, that is a different story. They will salute me and render the greeting of the day to you. It isn't a matter of rank or authority. If the Privates don't respect our authority, we have no authority." That being said, I think it is vital for soldiers of all ranks to show this formal respect to Commanders at all times. I also never failed to salute this Captain not just because protocol requires it, but because of the immeasurable respect I hold for him.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2013 11:11 PM

2013-12-11T23:11:54-05:00

Yes.

Response by Cpl Robert Clark made Dec 12 at 2013 9:40 AM

2013-12-12T09:40:41-05:00

Only if the 2Lt has a butter knife in his hand. ;)

Response by 1SG Glenn Aldrich made Dec 13 at 2013 12:13 PM

2013-12-13T12:13:19-05:00

I think that most of the people posting here are hypocrites. How many enlisted soldiers salute their platoon leader every time they come around in the motor pool? Not much. This should not be in discussion. Officers have their own mojo when dealing with each other. Most of it bull. When meeting each other, they fawn and stroke each other, then the senior asks the junior officer's first name and that is that.

Standards are standards and NCOs if you are going to bash the officers for them not saluting each other at these levels, then you had better be saluting them every time you see one (whether it was for the first time or two seconds ago). For that matter, how many of you NCOs keep your seat when an officer asks you a question? Probably all of you.

Customs and courtesies may seem archaic to some, but for those that have worn the uniform, shed the blood and stared the demon in the face, they are sacred. This type of discussion only hurts the military.

On another point, the phrases of affection such as "Chief" and "Top", as a First Sergeant I understood that "Top" was a term of endearment. It meant that my soldiers respected me as the Top Sergeant in the company. If a soldier was not calling my "Top" I needed to find out what was going on. It is like father and Dad. Anyone can be a father, but it takes a special person to be a Dad. The same goes for First Sergeants. It has a customary precedence.

Great units do the small things right. That is what I was always taught. Many of the small things are rendering courtesies when appropriate, doing PT correctly, drill & ceremonies and conducting police call. Almost too often, these things are put to the side because of mission orientation or some other excuse. D&C teaches soldiers to be a part of a team and organization. PT helps soldiers not only cope physically with the rigors of battle, but mentally. Customs and courtesies re-enforces a soldier's place in the unit and who's orders they are to follow. Police call stems from the need to keep your area clean for sanitation reasons that translate into the field environment, not for beauty sake.

Live by the regulations and customs of the military, do the small things well, and the big missions will take care of themselves because the basic skills are the most important to mission success.

Response by SPC Christopher Morehouse made Dec 13 at 2013 3:48 PM

2013-12-13T15:48:14-05:00

So I was never an officer, so if you had something shinny on I saluted it no matter what, but it kind of looks like you answered your own question there. The standard is the standard, no point in having them if we don't follow them.

Maybe its different for fresh officers then fresh enlisted, but I never thought of 2nds and 1sts as being the same thing when I was in. My company XO was a 1st LT, my platoon leader was a 2nd lt, and to me there was a world of difference between the two.

But so long as we are talking about Lts, you know the difference between a PFC and a 2nd Lt right?

The PFCs already been promoted twice.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2013 7:58 PM

2013-12-13T19:58:49-05:00

Per regulation yes, the junior officer needs to render a salute. Now if there are some personal reason why you don't that's between you both.

Response by SSG Richard Stevens made Dec 14 at 2013 10:23 PM

2013-12-14T22:23:42-05:00

yes every officer should salute each other out of respect

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Dec 15 at 2013 4:53 PM

2013-12-15T16:53:56-05:00

OMG! IF one more person says this is like a PFC not standing at Parade Rest for a SPC Im going to have to pull out my stress card. People, parade rest is for NCO's, it is NOT for Jr. Soldiers. Here is a copy and paste for you from FM 7-21.13 Of particular note is the 3rd bullet. Please please please stop the madness.

4-16. Military courtesy shows respect and reflects self-discipline. Consistent and proper military courtesy is an indicator of unit discipline, as well. Soldiers demonstrate courtesy in the way we address officers or NCOs of superior rank. Some other simple but visible signs of respect and self-discipline are as follows:

When talking to an officer of superior rank, stand at attention until ordered otherwise.When you are dismissed, or when the officer departs, come to attention and salute.When speaking to or being addressed a noncommissioned officer of superior rank, stand at parade rest until ordered otherwise.When an officer of superior rank enters a room, the first soldier to recognize the officer calls personnel in the room to attention but does not salute. A salute indoors is rendered only when reporting.When an NCO of superior rank enters the room, the first soldier to recognize the NCO calls the room to "At ease."Walk on the left of an officer or NCO of superior rank.When entering or exiting a vehicle, the junior ranking soldier is the first to enter, and the senior in rank is the first to exit.When outdoors and approached by an NCO, you greet the NCO by saying, "Good morning, Sergeant," for example.The first person who sees an officer enter a dining facility gives the order "At ease," unless a more senior officer is already present. Many units extend this courtesy to senior NCOs, also.When you hear the command "At ease" in a dining facility, remain seated, silent and continue eating unless directed otherwise.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2013 6:33 PM

2013-12-15T18:33:41-05:00

(From an enlisted point of view) PVT's are suppose to stand at parade rest for PV2's so I do believe that 2LT's should salute to a 1LT.

Response by BG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2013 8:29 PM

2013-12-15T20:29:43-05:00

If I ever see a 2LT salute a 1LT I am going to give him a counseling statement. I had to do this in OBC and it was ridiculous. Every MTOE in the Army list "LT" as the rank for the position. The purpose of the 1LT is to be a mentor to the 2LT, not create a status distinction. The 2LT is automatically going to be a 1LT in about a year after he joins a unit on his first tour of duty. The 2LT has enough superiors, he needs a buddy. If you want to go with the rank approach I guess we need to get DOR on everyone. I know CPTs that are five years apart in rank and regard each other as equals.

I can respect the positional approach if one is a Commander. I personally encourage the two other Colonels in my brigade not to call me Sir - but it doesn't seem to do any good.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Dec 15 at 2013 8:49 PM

2013-12-15T20:49:06-05:00

So officers give us regulations and expect us to enforce them, except for the regulations they don't want enforced? Roger that ladies and gentlemen. 

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2013 9:06 PM

2013-12-16T21:06:02-05:00

2LTs do Not salute 1LTs period. This is the standard. You should be more concerned with helping each other become CPTs than trying to play big man with the silver bar.

Response by SPC William Vann made Dec 17 at 2013 6:19 AM

2013-12-17T06:19:35-05:00

Always. A 2nd Lt has to, the same as I do. Rank is rank.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2013 10:42 PM

2013-12-17T22:42:21-05:00

No, a lieutenant is a lieutenant.  

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Dec 18 at 2013 4:50 AM

2013-12-18T04:50:35-05:00

Yes! 2LTs should salute 1LTs. Regardless of the "peer-relationship" its a respect for not only the person, but their rank/position. It goes the same for SSGs being at Parade Rest for SFCs/MSGs, etc. PV1s should be at Parade Rest for PV2, so on and so forth. But, we have gotten away from those traditions with the idea that it detracts from the "mission" or its "petty". Thank you for your question and I have read most of the responses and I agree as well.

Response by MSgt Ryan Tanner made Dec 18 at 2013 8:55 AM

2013-12-18T08:55:59-05:00

Hands down it needs to happen. It's all part of paying your dues. It's part of our customs and courtesies based on time-honored traditions. I came into the service as an E-1 and we've all joked about "Rank amongst junior ranks is like honor amongst prostitutes...it don't exist". However this tradition needs to stand firm against the entropy of the rest of the system...just this SNCO's stance.

Response by MSgt Ryan Tanner made Dec 18 at 2013 8:59 AM

2013-12-18T08:59:11-05:00

This reminds me of a young Lt that did something stupid....was getting kicked out....so he went and got "F**K YOU!" tattooed to along the bottom edge of his right hand, so every-time thereon he saluted it presented an additional message. That didn't work out for him either....

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Dec 18 at 2013 11:45 AM

2013-12-18T11:45:24-05:00

When I was a "little Hooah" growing up in the Army, that was taught to me. Stand at Parade Rest for enlisted senior to you and at attention for officers. True enough it may not be specified in the regs that you should do it, nor does it specify that you cannot. So, maybe it was a interpretive message bred into the military, just like a lot of "unnorms". I see nothing wrong with the practice in the first place, it instills discipline, respect and is generally a motivation builder for the junior to want to aspire to achieve that kind of position and respect.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2013 2:43 PM

2013-12-18T14:43:02-05:00

With the exception of close order drill or duty, I don't receive a salute but I will damn sure receive a proper greeting from any men of lesser grade. If I was a commisioned officer, that proper greeting would be in conjunction with a salute. It's tradition, it's the standard, it's respectful, it shows recognition, and it needs to be enforced!

Response by Capt Andre Toman made Dec 18 at 2013 8:41 PM

2013-12-18T20:41:37-05:00

If I were doing a joint operation as a second lieutenant with a first lieutenant from a foreign service (pick anyone...South Korea, Israel, Japan, Germany), I would salute. That said, salute. Yeah, you may be called a "tool," but it only will be for 18 to 24 months. O-1s are at the bottom of the totem pole, deal with it. Privately if you don't want to call your friend, who is an O-2, sir or ma'am, don't. It's a silly game at times.

Response by PO2 Orlando Sims, MPA made Dec 19 at 2013 1:14 AM

2013-12-19T01:14:47-05:00

The pay-grade hierarchy should be respected by all military members. Officers should salute any other senior officers regardless of the difference in rank. Salutes are a time-honored tradition that shows respect between the members engaged in this action. An O-1 should follow military protocol and salute the O-2. Remember that all officers set the standards for the enlisted and warrant officers under their command.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Dec 19 at 2013 2:27 PM

2013-12-19T14:27:43-05:00

IRT saluting -

1. You're saluting the position that person holds, NOT the person him/herself.

2. As long as the Army has a rank structure, there are going to be superiors and subordinates. Subordinates initiate the salute until recognized/returned by the superior.

This comes with the territory. Get used to it. We have wayyyy bigger fish to fry.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2013 2:25 PM

2013-12-20T14:25:58-05:00

By the regulations, yes a 2LT should salute a 1LT, just as a CPT would salute an officer of higher grade. I think that a lot of soldiers see a LT as a LT, regardless of 1LT or 2LT, they both wear a single bar on their chest. The salute is rendered out of recognition and respect for that individual. It is something that has been around a lot longer than most of us have, we need to keep the traditions and customs of our forefathers alive and well. The military is huge on customs and courtesies along with tradition, however with the changing times it seems like there are a lot of soldiers that are becoming more lax in regards to this. The salute is rendered out of recognition and respect for that individual. It is something that has been around a lot longer than most of us have, we need to keep the traditions and customs of our forefathers alive and well. I have not spent much time on Active Duty posts, but I do not see it often on National Guard posts.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2013 9:10 PM

2013-12-20T21:10:51-05:00

I'll answer this question with a question. Does a Captain salute a Major? Does a Major salute a LTC? I'm sure the answer is yes. Therefore, a 2LT is required to salute a 1LT. On the enlisted side, an E-5 SGT has to go to parade rest when either addressing or being addressed by a SSG. In my company, my Platoon Sergeant who is a SFC, goes to parade rest when addressing or being addressed by our 1SG. It's basic military knowledge.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2013 5:23 PM

2013-12-22T17:23:37-05:00

In the Air Force it's pretty standard for 2LTs to salute 1LTs. I work in a school house unit that conducts technical training for Officers, and I've never seen the 2LTs fail to render proper C&C to any ranking officer.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2013 8:37 AM

2013-12-24T08:37:44-05:00

When in doubt... whip it out...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2013 2:28 PM

2013-12-24T14:28:36-05:00

I believe a 2LT should salute a 1LT because the 1LT is a higher rank.

Response by SGT Walter Bernstein made Dec 24 at 2013 10:36 PM

2013-12-24T22:36:58-05:00

I agree that the 2nd lt should salute a first lt, not only is it required, but person-ably i would think it is just not only the correct way but also a way to show respect for the higher rank. It's a smart move to salute.

Response by SGM Steven Richards made Dec 25 at 2013 10:05 PM

2013-12-25T22:05:55-05:00

Yes, a 1LT does out rank a 2LT.  As leaders they must set the example at all times! Our lower enlisted need to know their leaders are doing what's right regardless of the circumstances!

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2013 9:27 PM

2013-12-27T21:27:04-05:00

Should a SGT call a SSG sergeant? The answer is yes. And the answer to your question is also obviously yes. It's all about respect and what others see. You are setting an example for juniors. <div><br></div><div>Even when I see my own wife in a parking lot and she's in uniform (she's a major I'm a SFC) I salute her. It's out of respect and tradition and if someone saw me not salute her and they didn't know we were married how bad would that look. </div><div><br></div><div>We need to return to proper customs  and courtesies. We just need to enforce standards already in place. </div><div><br></div><div>And for the love of god officers need to quit calling people by their first names. It's ridiculous. </div>

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2013 4:48 AM

2013-12-29T04:48:45-05:00

I don't know what army some of you people are in, but I have been in for about 7 years at this point; I've been to Ft. Jackson, Ft. Lewis, Ft. Sill, Ft. Benning, Ft. Bragg, and Ft. Polk and I have literally NEVER seen a 2LT salute a first 1LT. 

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2013 12:27 AM

2013-12-30T00:27:50-05:00

Short answer yes. Does it happen..maybe but not always.

Response by CSM Colin Patterson made Dec 31 at 2013 11:43 AM

2013-12-31T11:43:11-05:00

The salute is a time honored recognition, that has been devalued. Because a lot of Officers and Enlisted soldiers have issues with saluting and would walk across the street to avoid rendering a salute. Also because we have been entrenched in combat zones for the past 12 years soldiers have gotten out of the practice of saluting their superiors and superiors their subordinates. Now that the focus is being placed on Garrison soldiering and leading we have to bring back the courtesies and customs that belong in a garrison environment and is integral in maintaining basic discipline among young soldiers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2014 3:10 PM

2014-01-03T15:10:02-05:00

Sir, Military Costumes and Courtesies are part of our Profession, so the answer to your question is YES. Soldiers at all levels should ALWAYS enforce those standards. A Master Sergeant by AR is addressed as "SERGEANT" yet I always correct others when they address a MSG by "Master Sergeant" and I have been corrected by a MSG because he didn't appreciate me calling him "SERGEANT" I am a Sergeant First Class, so I am addressed as a "Sergeant" why a MSG should be treated different; of course he is a 1SG. The Hand Salute is render ALWAYS by the Junior Soldier, regardless. Knowledge is power, read the ARs and FMs, Army Doctrine hasn't changed regarding Military Courtesy and Costumes. Basic Standards of Discipline is a Duty of all Soldiers!

Response by SGT Kristopher Lather made Jan 5 at 2014 12:23 PM

2014-01-05T12:23:36-05:00

Simple answer is Yes, You don't have to Respect the Person, but you do have to Respect the Rank.

Response by MAJ Derrick J. made Jan 5 at 2014 9:44 PM

2014-01-05T21:44:16-05:00

Render the salute - its called for, its tradition and its part of the officer corps experience - do it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2014 10:31 AM

2014-01-07T10:31:09-05:00

The regulation is the regulation... A salute needs to be rendered. But not because the regulation says you have to, but for respect for the rank. The 1LT (probably a PL or staff guy) is starting to lead in the wrong direction and if/when his feet start getting held to the fire for problems either in the platoon or shop it's going to be harder for him to gain a command type authority from the rest of the guys to fix it. At the same time he's letting the 2LT slip by with it and starts setting him up for failure if not a rocky start when he's placed in those same shoes. I'm not saying they don't work well together but it's a visible sign that puts off false expectations to everybody else.

But I bet he gets upset when he gets promoted and the new 2LT gives him the same speech about saluting.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2014 4:41 PM

2014-01-08T16:41:15-05:00

Its kind of similar with the junior enlisted E1-E4; they typically treat each other exactly the same, regardless of pay grade, but that varies by organization. But Sir, your case is backed by doctrine, so it is imposed and to be enforced.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2014 2:47 PM

2014-01-10T14:47:29-05:00

Much in the same manner that as NCO's we tell soldiers that regardless of the individual NCO's worthiness you still say sergeant out of respect to the rank, I think the salute also should be given to any officer superior to you in rank. This pains me to say because like many NCO's I believe that the capabilities of a LT whether it be 1LT or 2LT more often than not are not at a level that would truly make them ready to be a leader. However, I believe that with the job responsibilities and the basis within regulation the salute must be rendered.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2014 1:59 PM

2014-01-11T13:59:56-05:00

Of course a 2LT should salute a 1LT. Obviously, many officers and enlisted have an established norm of allowing them not to salute, but that opens up a Pandora's box. It starts with not saluting, then having to explain it to enlisted Soldiers why the regulation is not being adhered to. IG has a great mantra of regulation. It falls under two categories: don't know, or won't comply.enforce the standard, folks!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2014 3:09 PM

2014-01-11T15:09:04-05:00

Regarless, 2LT should rend a courtesy salute to a senior LT. Courtesy in the Army is an Army Value. Imagine a private adressing a private first class or specialist; he should adress them in parede rest.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2014 5:27 AM

2014-01-12T05:27:41-05:00

Sir I feel that it is just a respect thing i have had Officers and Warrant Officers tell me not to Salute. But as a custom in the Armed forces no matter what the rank should render the proper salute and/or greeting.

Response by SFC James Baber made Jan 13 at 2014 5:08 PM

2014-01-13T17:08:05-05:00

I think this is one of those great threads that shows that we all can have varying agreeing and disagreeing opinions and views and still remain professional while having a professional discussion. This is a good recruiting thread to be viewed by many as we are trying to build and emphasize our growing professional network.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2014 3:53 PM

2014-01-14T15:53:28-05:00

By saluting you are showing respect to every man and woman that have held that rank. You are saluting the rank, not the person.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2014 3:07 PM

2014-01-15T15:07:07-05:00

Sir, I see this issue the same as you do, however my experience is with Warrant Officers mostly. I see it continually that soldiers will not render the salute to a WOJ, CW2, or 2LT, because they only see someone that has not "done the time" that they have.

To all junior officers and all NCOs, if you see this behavior, correct it. It doesn't matter what rank the individual is that you are correcting, just be respectful.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2014 8:13 PM

2014-01-16T20:13:42-05:00

<font class="Apple-style-span" color="#343434" face="Tahoma"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 17px;">Aside from official ceremonies, never have I encountered where a 1LT wanted or demanded a salute from a 2LT, or rarely where a 2LT felt compelled to salute a 1LT.  The one awkward time where as a 2LT I saluted a 1LT, the 1LT admonished me, advising we were both LT's.  The thing I find most insane is that we are having a conversation about this.  Is this how out of touch we've become?  How tied to the letter of a policy we are as opposed to the intent?  We've degenerated to this?  When will we start talking about issues that matter?  Like how the last 10 years of COIN operations have destroyed our ability to conduct high intensity conflict (total warfare), how no one knows how to do CASEVAC or a ROM in a HIC environment?  How we will train for HIC with limited resources and still remain relevant as the premier tier 1 Army?</span></font>

Response by COL David S. made Jan 16 at 2014 8:34 PM

2014-01-16T20:34:12-05:00

If the 2LT has class and is confident of himself he should salute. It shows an awareness of respect of rank and reflects well on the junior officer no matter what the response.

Response by SGT Bud Mullins made Jan 17 at 2014 12:06 PM

2014-01-17T12:06:49-05:00

I was always under the impression the salute was one of respect to the RANK of the person receiving the salute. Individuality has nothing to do with the salute. Therefore, I do believe a 2ndLt is required by military standards and traditions, to salute a 1stLt. As with a LtJG to a Navy Lt.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2014 11:43 PM

2014-01-18T23:43:32-05:00

Why is this even a discussion? What is there to dispute? The regulation says salute. End of story. Ridiculous. It's a failure of leadership and inherited insubordination that questions like these still occur.<div><br></div><div>Should first lieutenants salute Captains? Ridiculous.</div>

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2014 1:24 PM

2014-01-19T13:24:15-05:00

Funny question, I'm too busy trying to get 2LT to stop saluting me. I guess the CW3/CW4 rank confuse them. :-)

Response by CPT Cedric Rice made Jan 19 at 2014 8:20 PM

2014-01-19T20:20:52-05:00

you know i hear arguments from many NCO's out there who say that all lower ranking LT's should salute the higher ranking Lt...but there were many instances as a 2Lt that senior NCo's made it obvious that they did not respect my rank...there were also some instances where I had to make NCO's salute me ..because otherwise they would not have rendered due respect for my rank

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2014 12:17 AM

2014-01-20T00:17:13-05:00

No same rank technically.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2014 5:12 AM

2014-01-20T05:12:30-05:00

<font color="#4d4d4d"><span style="font-size: 12px;">LTs do NOT salute other LTs period.  Despite the difference in grade tradition and history dictate that a 2LT should not salute a 1LT.  By saluting when it is not expected or required you may actually be undermining yourself as a leader.  You may put yourself in a position were the person you are saluting and others who witness it, perceive you as un-knowledgeable and therefore unprepared to lead.  </span></font>

Response by SSG Bill Sier made Jan 24 at 2014 8:55 AM

2014-01-24T08:55:56-05:00

In reference to CWO Walker's comment, most Flight warrants of my experience do not want to be saluted. This caused a problem for me when I walked past an Admin WO1after spending a tour at an installation with an airfield. The WO1 was not pleased. Fortunately my CO at the time had been enlisted, flight warrant and then commissioned, so I went to him for guidance. He said that sounded like a brand NEW WO1, but that technically he was correct.

As for the original question, I guess I'm an old school dude as well. In public, I can see for appearances to render respect to the rank, even if you know the soldier. Otherwise someone of a superior rank, such as a CSM, will notice and there will be trouble. Or worse, someone of a LOWER rank will notice, and become selective in their salutes.

Response by SSG Bill Sier made Jan 24 at 2014 9:10 AM

2014-01-24T09:10:44-05:00

Getting back to CWO Walker's point, when I was stationed at an Army airfield, flight warrants did not want to be saluted. This caused an issue at my next duty station when I walked past an Admin WO1 without saluting. I was careful after that, saluting first and if they preferred NOT to be saluted, they'd let me know.

Getting back to the original question, in public, I believe the proper honors should be rendered to the rank, if only for appearances. What happens in the motor pool or the unit area is different. If you fail to salute, someone of a superior rank, such as a CSM, may notice and trouble could ensue. Or even worse, someone of a LOWER rank may notice and figure it's OK to be selective in their saluting.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2014 1:15 PM

2014-01-24T13:15:36-05:00

Honestly, I don't care what Lieutenants do behind closed doors, but if you are a senior officer, and you'll pull a 2LT to the side and chastise them for saluting a 1LT out in the open, YOU are wrong, Sir (or Ma'am).

I don't care if I think a 2LT is a complete bag of crap. If I see them out of doors, I will salute them, because it's the right thing to do.

And that 2LT that gets disrespected may eventually become a LTC who has no trust in NCOs and becomes a MicroManager (tm).

If jr. enlisted see Lieutenants not saluting each other, they may think it's okay for them not to salute the LTs... there is no double-standard in the Army.

Out in the open, if whoever I am passing outranks me, I will render a salute, because it's the right thing to do. If I outrank them, I wait for them to initiate, and I will return the salute, because it's the right thing to do.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2014 11:14 PM

2014-01-24T23:14:22-05:00

Now this maybe "above my paygrade" but I believe a standard is a standard is a standard. Black and white.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2014 5:09 PM

2014-01-25T17:09:58-05:00

Thats just Customs and Courtesies, whoever is junior should render the salute regardless. There is always someone watching and there should be an example that is being shown to be set.

Response by SFC Brian Whisenant made Jan 25 at 2014 10:02 PM

2014-01-25T22:02:58-05:00

Absolutely, without question. Not saluting an officer senior in rank would be a poor example for Soldiers to see.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 3:04 AM

2014-01-26T03:04:44-05:00

Anyone who has a problem with the regulation has a problem with authority. Why do people make it so personal? It is respect for the rank and adherence to guidelines and discipline. To even debate it opens up to a breakdown of combat teams and unit cohesion. Respect? It is earned. I have served with plenty of people up and down the chain that I could care less for as a person, YET, as a team player, I respected them for their skill set(s), and I am sure the same has been said about me. If that person outranked me, by all means without hesitation salute was rendered with the proper verbal courtesies. Keep it professional, not personal. We have enough stupidity and debates in a day that we can do less with.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2014 1:08 AM

2014-01-27T01:08:00-05:00

If in doubt whip it out :) salute its simply a higher rank.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2014 7:07 AM

2014-01-27T07:07:33-05:00

Had to bring out the exact words so the debate can stop:

AR 600-25

1–5. Hand salutes and salutes with arms

For instructions on executing the hand salute, see FM 3–21.5, paragraph 4–4.

All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute.

Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of

the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps

of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service

entitled to the salute.

The junior person shall salute first. Accompanying the rendering of the hand salute with an appropriate greeting

such as, "Good Morning, Sir" or "Good Morning, Ma’am" is encouraged. Personnel will not salute indoors except

when reporting to a superior officer.

AND A BIT MORE FROM

FM7-21.13

THE HAND SALUTE

4-7. The salute is not simply an honor exchanged. It is a privileged

gesture of respect and trust among soldiers. Remember the salute is not

only prescribed by regulation but is also recognition of each other’s

commitment, abilities, and professionalism.

4-13. All soldiers in uniform are required to salute when they meet and

recognize persons entitled (by grade) to a salute except when it is

inappropriate or impractical (in public conveyances such as planes and

buses, in public places such as inside theaters, or when driving a vehicle).

That seems pretty cut and dry, even if officers are of the same rank they are supposed to salute eachother as a sign of customs and courtesy to the rank. A rank which I guarentee you ar enot the first the wear nor will you be the last. A salute is to render honor to the rank, the duty, integrity, and position for which that rank stands for....I'm a 4th generation Soldier and on a personal level it bothers me to see our heritage and honors completely disregarded. The correct answer regardless is a 1LT (O-2) definitly outranks a 2LT(O-1). The 2LT(O-1) should render a hand salute and a greating.

Then the 1LT(O-2) should return the salute. RETURN THE SALUTE!!!! It is completely disrespectful fo rsomeone to render a salute and not get their return.

It's because of people not enforcing the baasic standards we have the larger problems that have developed in the military. The level of comfort between lower enlisted, noncommissioned, and commissed officer, and the "personal relationship" or "off duty" time that has been metioned way too many times in this thread, is why we have the indiscipline problems we do. Catch the little stuff and the larger problems will cease to exist.

Response by CPT Mike M. made Jan 27 at 2014 4:25 PM

2014-01-27T16:25:07-05:00

I guess the next question is this - Among the Officers, who of you, when you get a Battalion or higher command is going to dictate to your subordinate commanders that they enforce a 2LT saluting 1LTs policy? Likewise, among the NCOs, who among you when you make CSM is going to advise your Commander to enforce such a policy because of the stigma we're seeing in this very thread and how it is understood nearly universally among the enlisted ranks? Back to you, Officers. If you're a "A LT is an LT and they don't salute each other" type of person, what are you going to do if your CSM, your right hand man, your battle buddy makes this recommendation? We can all read the regulation and most on here agree that how it is WRITTEN is fairly clear that 2LTs should salute 1LTs. However, that will not happen without a significant culture change. So, back to my above questions, what leaders and future leaders here are going to be the wheels of motion in making that change happen?

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2014 4:34 PM

2014-01-27T16:34:21-05:00

Sir do you expect a salute from enlisted or can we just walk pass you and not salute. Sir you are entitled to a salute and should be given one. You are required to salute an officer senior to you. It's not how we feel it is what we do. That's what separates us from everyone else as a military. Sir I don't have to like you but I have to respect the rank. The same goes for you. Would you call a SSG or SFC by his last name or would you include his rank. By reg you have too. Same applies here you don't have to like him but he is entitled to the professional courtesy.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2014 9:55 PM

2014-01-27T21:55:26-05:00

When in doubt... Throw one out...

Response by SSG Cliff Duffey made Jan 28 at 2014 4:38 AM

2014-01-28T04:38:20-05:00

I would definitely say yes to this. Give respect where it is due no matter the rank!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2014 3:30 PM

2014-01-28T15:30:52-05:00

If the regulation says a 1LT outranks a 2LT, and the regulation also says any commissioned officer of lower rank shall render proper salute to the higher ranking officer, it seems pretty cut and dry to me. However, this situation falls into the same category as officers calling each other by first name in the workplace and around NCOs. I'd say go with whatever is trending in that particular formation, unit, etc.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jan 28 at 2014 3:33 PM

2014-01-28T15:33:30-05:00

Why wont this thread die!!!!

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2014 12:09 AM

2014-01-29T00:09:35-05:00

All great replies. The only thing I do find a tad humorous, is that ID Cards state " LT " regardless if you are an O-1 or O-2, in the AF anyways.

Response by LCDR Thomas Combs made Jan 30 at 2014 8:21 PM

2014-01-30T20:21:36-05:00

All I can say, is that I can't believe this discussion is still going on.

Response by LCDR Thomas Combs made Jan 30 at 2014 8:22 PM

2014-01-30T20:22:14-05:00

I can't believe this discussion is still going on.

Response by MSgt Timothy Bridgham made Jan 31 at 2014 8:31 AM

2014-01-31T08:31:42-05:00

Really, that is an issue today. If you see someone not salute, then correct them on the spot. That is the duty of all leaders to ensure Good Order.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2014 8:57 AM

2014-01-31T08:57:18-05:00

Well it so happens that someone started the idea that 2LTs didnt have to salute 1LTs and it has spread through the ranks. It has been happening a long time that is why you see it not happening. I was told the same thing ten years ago when I commissioned. I didnt see 1LTs as equals, but I could understand the premise of not having to salute one. If big Army or the military wants it reverted back to 2LTs saluting 1LTs, they just have to give the directive...

Response by SSG Christopher Horton made Jan 31 at 2014 1:58 PM

2014-01-31T13:58:11-05:00

Yes, I think that a 2LT should salute a 1LT. I also think that a PVT should stand at parade rest for a PFC. So there you go.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2014 6:26 AM

2014-02-01T06:26:17-05:00

Regardless rank is rank. We need to respect those above us, even if it isn't a huge difference. The same goes for a PFC and SPC. That PFC needs to respect the specialist. It just shows the younger soldiers that we respect all ranks and give eachother the courtesies of each rank.

Response by LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® made Feb 1 at 2014 6:24 PM

2014-02-01T18:24:54-05:00

When I was a senior 1LT I had my Company CDR tell me that 1st and 2nd LTs were the same essentially. I didn't why he brought it up but apparently he had the impression that I was ordering 2nd LTs around like they were subordinates which wasn't the case.

But from my experience the expectation in the Army, National Guard and Active, they are treated as though they are the same rank. A 1st LT just means they are not as green anymore and have more experience. The reason silver is a higher rank than gold is because gold is softer and more malleable than silver. So essentially a 1LT is seen as someone who has been hardened by experience and is expected to withstand pressure more.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2014 2:26 PM

2014-02-02T14:26:33-05:00

Absolutely!

One, it's a regulation and two, out of respect. I can remember my days as a Second Lieutenant, 37 years old and 17 years prior enlisted and with out a doubt, I would salute a First Lieutenant even if I didn't think much of him/her personally. Do not let others believe you are some egotistical "butter bar". The loss of respect form you subordinates and peers could be devastating. I certainly wouldn't respect and officer who refused to salute another based on some personal believe that here is some sort of equality there. Set the example for others to follow.

Response by COL Judy Roberson made Feb 3 at 2014 2:09 AM

2014-02-03T02:09:00-05:00

Custom and courtesies is art of the military. Therefore, saluting is a manner of respect and protocol. Even if the both of you are out of uniform the acknowledgment should be render with the proper greeting.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2014 12:41 PM

2014-02-03T12:41:04-05:00

I've read several responses, but the question is asked
"2LT salute a 1LT?" By regulation, yes a salute is warranted to
someone of senior rank. When I originally commissioned in the AV branch, I
found it to be a different world and was corrected the first time I saluted a
1LT. And you'll see that W1s won't salute CW5s (at least in AV, not sure about
WOs in other branches), but according to the Warrants that were 50/50 in AV
BOLC with me, they state "it's an unwritten code in the Warrant Officer
ranks." The problem with creating, and continuing to follow, this
'standard' is the poor example it sets for those around that see this. The
snowball effect is very evident and then the question comes for that SPC or SSG
wondering why the junior WO doesn't salute the senior WO. Same can be said for
2LTs and 1LTs. Unfortunately, It's become the environment in which we find
ourselves, and it's going to take a lot of us to correct and set the right
standard.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2014 1:46 PM

2014-02-03T13:46:53-05:00

I was taught as a young 2LT to always have my right hand free in garrison. Times I had my hands full and see someone coming, I stop and set down whatever I'm carrying so I can render or return a salute. It's inconvenient sure, but respectful and the right thing to do. Same as walking to the left and rear of superiors. I think doing these small things shows the discipline of a unit and individual.

That being said, I was also taught that LTs treat each other as equals as far as salutes and addressing one another. That is unless of course, one of the LTs is a company/troop/battery commander. Not technically the correct answer, but I recommend following the co cdr's and bn cdr's guidance with respect to 2LT-1LT interactions.

My personal opinion, 2LTs should of course understand the 1LTs are more experienced and can help them out. They should keep things informal, however, in order to foster a cohesive peer group or "LT mafia"

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2014 12:13 PM

2014-02-05T12:13:03-05:00

I am way behind on this discussion, but the bottom line is a 2LT does not need to salute a 1LT or call him or her Ma'am or Sir.  The only possible exception is when a senior 1LT is in a command position and a 2LT is a PL...then, it is appropriate to salute and call Sir or Ma'am - because of the position. (1LTs don't command very often nowadays, so it is pretty much a mute point).  2LTs get promoted to 1LT by time in service, not by any DA level or local board...just as a PVT, PV2, PFC and SPC get promoted by time, not a board.  None of those junior Soldiers stands at parade rest for the senior grade Soldier until he or she becomes a SGT.  That SGT gets promoted by a local board and pins on based on points.  A CPT is promoted by a DA level board.  No lieutenant in the Army will call a CPT by his or first name or not salute them.  2LTs and 1LTs typically have the same position and responsibility and therefore I consider them peers within my battalion.  I senior rate them differently, but for professional development, I treat them the same.  BTW, there is no such rank in the Army as LT...that is a Navy O3 rank. 

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2014 9:52 PM

2014-02-05T21:52:57-05:00

Lieutenant Rosa- In the days gone by (WWII and Korea) it was custom for a 2LT to salute a 1LT. A 1LT in WWII may be a Company Commander one day and a BN XO the next. Overtime and the changes in the officer promotion system, this tradition has morphed. Now, salutes amongst LTs is like honor amongst thieves.

However, if a 1LT is you Commander, than yes, salute him and call him sir.

Response by MAJ John Drake made Feb 6 at 2014 12:30 AM

2014-02-06T00:30:38-05:00

If they have their "P", it is appropiate or if he/she are placed in Command over you. Otherwise, "There is no honor among theives." Otherwise, you run the risk of being the butt of jokes for years to come for saluting a 1LT.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2014 1:10 AM

2014-02-06T01:10:38-05:00

I look at this two ways. If the junior works with the senior on a daily basis, and has been told by the senior not to salute, that's perfectly fine. When they're around enlisted soldiers however, especially any junior soldiers, I believe that they should salute. More than anything I think that it is setting the example for their subordinates in that they should always render proper customs and courtesies.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2014 11:31 AM

2014-02-06T11:31:30-05:00

Is this a serious question? Rank structure is there for a reason. You salute a warrant or commissioned officer who out ranks you. Period.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 3:02 PM

2014-02-07T15:02:41-05:00

Thank you for clarifying that LT Rosa. I thought that was the regulation but never knew for sure. I feel that if you are entitled to a salute regardless of my rank, I shall salute you, you earned it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 10:14 PM

2014-02-07T22:14:46-05:00

When I salute I expect an officer, warrant to salute me back and if they don't I will solve the issue tactfully. Whatever you do reflects on yourself period...

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 7:16 AM

2014-02-08T07:16:39-05:00

Sir - You should always following regulatory guidance and salute anyone senior to you in rank.

SGM James

Response by Capt John Stewart made Feb 8 at 2014 9:24 PM

2014-02-08T21:24:07-05:00

I enjoy reading the various topics here although I have seldom wanted to respond until now. It is VERY interesting to see the wide and diverse opinions. I will take a moment and put in my two cents to the subject and to the various spinoff responses.

Without question a 2ndLt will salute a 1stLt. I have worked in or around different services and the customs vary greatly. I've seen senior enlisted talk to officers and call them by their name or call sign. I've seen SgtMajs not salute Captains. In the Marine Corps every officer is rendered a salute by any subordinate officer, warrant, or enlisted. A 1stLt would get a salute by an 0-1, E-9, or W-3 followed by a Sir or Ma'am no questioned asked. That also addresses the issue of those selected for promotion addressing those that have already obtained the future rank and should they also be saluted and again the answer is yes. That is because until the minute the new rank is pinned on the only thing that you are referred to is your current rank. There is no P rank or 'selected' rank. Lastly, the issue of not saluting in a combat environment has merit but not all services see the value in it. Since we practice many things for use in combat not saluting in a combat environment (today that would mean anywhere in Iraq, Afghanistan or other operational locales) has tactical roots, Since the enemy may be observing your operation we don't salute so that the leadership ranks are not readily identified, in line with that as you get to more remote operations rank and other identifying tags are often removed to further concile ones identity. I personally struggle with barracks being called dorms and PT gear being worn in the 'chow hall' but services have different standards and customs that we all have to learn and respect...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 8:42 PM

2014-02-09T20:42:28-05:00

Bottom line, yes. What you do amongst yourselves not with standing, observe proper customs courtesies and deference in public and especially in front of your men.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 9:18 PM

2014-02-09T21:18:29-05:00

In the shortest answer I can, Yes.

Not only is it regulation, but it also shows a sign of respect for the rank. As an NCO, it is true there are times LT's are younger then I am and have less experience then I do, but they did the work, went to school, and earned their commision. For that alone, I respect the rank and will always salute.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2014 11:19 AM

2014-02-11T11:19:32-05:00

Sir, is this really a question? Of course a 2LT must salute a 1LT. That 1LT is senior by rank and most likely position, it is the standard. Plus what kind of example would a 2LT be showing his/her subordinates/peers/superiors? Do the right thing and render the proper respect to a senior officer.

Response by MSG Bo Lathrop made Feb 12 at 2014 10:26 PM

2014-02-12T22:26:08-05:00

I feel as though there is a rank system in place for a reason. If the Army says that you salute a higher ranking officer, then you do it.. Period.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2014 9:22 AM

2014-02-13T09:22:46-05:00

Absolutley, In my platoon if someone out ranks you, you will stand at parade rest and show proper respect.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 3:56 PM

2014-02-15T15:56:30-05:00

Sir,

I think that it doesn't matter the rank an Officer is an Officer and respect should always be given. Military customs and courtesies are a huge part of the Army, if a CPT had just been promoted he would want the CPT that has command salute him and vice vercia.

Response by MSG Martinis Butler made Feb 16 at 2014 12:14 AM

2014-02-16T00:14:32-05:00

I believe that they should salute simply because if we want to start setting the right example for the lower enlisted Soldiers than it has to start with the leadership. Discipline starts from the top down not from the bottom up!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2014 11:32 PM

2014-02-16T23:32:46-05:00

I'm a brand new 2LT with 4 years prior service. I salute 1LTs and refer to them as sir or ma'am even though they sometimes tell me that I don't have to. As a former NCO, I know what right is. Even subordinates can influence their superiors to do the right thing.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2014 8:40 PM

2014-02-17T20:40:52-05:00

Sir, you have answered your own question. Proper respect is never inappropriate or 'toolish'.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2014 9:52 AM

2014-02-18T09:52:17-05:00

O-1 should always salute an O-2. Period.

Response by SSG Rafael Rodriguez made Feb 18 at 2014 5:29 PM

2014-02-18T17:29:13-05:00

You are correct Sir, you acknowledge that senior officer at all times, just like a LTC saluting A COL, same principle, eventually you will be there answering the same question from a junior officer after you move up the chain.

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Feb 18 at 2014 11:17 PM

2014-02-18T23:17:23-05:00

Yes, Next question...

Response by SPC Nicholas Olena made Feb 19 at 2014 6:30 PM

2014-02-19T18:30:39-05:00

The salute is a sign of respect, not just any respect, but respect among professionals. Get to know your regulation, read them AR 600-25 is the appropriate regulation for the Army.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2014 12:43 PM

2014-02-20T12:43:49-05:00

Don't worry sir you will be saluted always promoted or not. doesn't matter what rank a salute is a salute it is the military standard.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 3:22 PM

2014-02-21T15:22:16-05:00

Sir, a 1LT is a higher rank so the 2LT should salute. It would be the same as a SGT standing at parade rest while talking to a SSG. It's showing respect to the higher rank. Just my opinion.

Response by SSG Nathan Bryant made Feb 23 at 2014 4:50 AM

2014-02-23T04:50:45-05:00

A salute is warranted with the acknowledgement of a superior officer. No question in that.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2014 8:06 AM

2014-02-24T08:06:38-05:00

Yes they should salute regardless of the fact that the are both LT's, it's part of the customs and courtesies. Just like a SGT standing at parade rest for a SSG, they are both NCOs and both addressed as Sargent but the SSG is senior.

Response by SrA Zachary Bolling made Feb 24 at 2014 9:56 AM

2014-02-24T09:56:21-05:00

With not ever being an Officer I don't know if I can completely understand that kind of emotion or brotherhood shared within the select group. But as an enlisted member I was proud to salute anyone above me because I believe respect wasn't just given by doing it but earned as well. Showing that you acknowledge and respect that officers rank shows that you respect the uniform and its meaning and history of common courtesy. Thinking that your superior (even if they are only in 2 months more than you) does not deserve that respect I think shows that you have a lack of respect for the entire system. Just my opinion though. You should be proud to salute. One day you will not be required to and you WILL miss it, TRUST ME.

Response by SGT Thomas Smith made Feb 25 at 2014 11:03 PM

2014-02-25T23:03:56-05:00

yes no question. Respect the rank

Response by MAJ Dallas D. made Feb 26 at 2014 2:22 PM

2014-02-26T14:22:56-05:00

As a graduate of OCS we were taught that it was simple - A "LT" is a "LT"! If a 1LT is trying to make a 2LT salute him or her is obviously wrong. 

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2014 2:59 PM

2014-02-26T14:59:26-05:00

Yes a 2LT should salute a 1LT. I did whenever I was a 2LT and I didn't allow anyone to take the standard of respecting superiors away from me. Everyone works hard for thier rank and they deserve the respect that goes with it.

Response by LT Joseph Jones made Feb 26 at 2014 11:16 PM

2014-02-26T23:16:42-05:00

Yes the 2nd LT should salute the 1st LT. You answered the question in your first line.

Response by SSG Marvin Vick made Feb 27 at 2014 12:01 AM

2014-02-27T00:01:17-05:00

I believe they should salute because you are respecting the rank regardless.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2014 11:37 AM

2014-02-27T11:37:30-05:00

Plain and simple....YES!

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Feb 27 at 2014 9:38 PM

2014-02-27T21:38:40-05:00

It just dawned on me... I think I understand the wide gulf in opinion between NCOs and Commissioned Officers. I think the senior/subordinate aspect of Saluting is far weightier on our Commissioned counterparts.

Officers, you will salute everyone you pass. You look at them, examine their rank, process who gets more think pay, then either waits or initiates. Who initiates re-enforces who is junior.

Enlisted only salute commissioned and warrant officers, not each other. We are taught that the return salute is owed to you just as much as your initiating salute is owed to the Soldier rating it. It isn't about this person outranking me specifically; it is about them holding a Commission or Warrant where I do not. It is a completely different conceptual perspective.

In this paradigm, I can understand how LTs could get heartache over something we do reflexively regardless of how shiny the rank is we pass. With LTs seen as interchangeable, this breaks that mental mirage and re-enforces who outranks who. It honestly does not require as much thought for Enlisted. (Please, no jokes about not much thought being required to be enlisted anyway... :) )

In the Enlisted corps, our custom is to give the greeting of the day to a passing senior and the senior returns the greeting just as with saluting, but we all know this does not always happen, as it should. It stands out in stark contrast when serving with Marines while hearing "Good morning, Staff Sergeant" and replying with "Hooa-ah, Lance Corporal" every 10 feet (even in doors) where the Army Privates may give a polite nod or ignore you entirely.. Hell, even the Airmen and Sailors are far more prone to render this customary respect than what TRADOC is putting out. The problem is so wide spread (like 2LTs saluting 1LTs) that I could spend every second of my duty day making correcting Privates and end up just being referred to as that A-Hole SSG. It simply is not worth the investment in time to something seen as trivial in the Army culture.

What do you think?

PS: As for warrant officers, I believe the sentiment is: "Are we seriously talking about this right now? Just salute whoever before I rip out your spleen and turn it into guacamole."

Response by SPC Christian Sanchez made Feb 28 at 2014 3:46 AM

2014-02-28T03:46:40-05:00

Of course a 2Lt should salute a 1Lt. The 1st and 2nd LT may be lieutenants, but one still OUTRANKS the other. Personally, I see a 2LT as a Private. I may have served 3 1/2 years Enlisted and the LT is fresh to the unit, BUT he would still OUTRANK me. Is it fair? No, but it is the rules. It's no different than a Private standing at Parade Rest for a Specialist. The Specialist isn't an NCO, but he Outranks the Private...that's my rant...

Response by CMSgt Charles Elliott made Feb 28 at 2014 8:16 AM

2014-02-28T08:16:23-05:00

If as an officer you are junior in rank to a fellow officer than you must extend the proper courtesy of saluting.

Response by Cpl D. Blake Wilson made Feb 28 at 2014 11:33 AM

2014-02-28T11:33:08-05:00

Should a Lt Colonel salute a Colonel? Should a Lt General salute a General? Yes. No brainier...well...we are talking about boot louies.

Response by Sgt Anthony White made Feb 28 at 2014 2:45 PM

2014-02-28T14:45:27-05:00

Why shouldn't they? It is a rank structure for a reason

Response by SSG Richard McMurray made Feb 28 at 2014 3:38 PM

2014-02-28T15:38:27-05:00

A 2LT should absolutely salute a 1LT. Just as anyone should be saluting a superior officer. As an enlisted Soldier if I encounter a 2LT I would salute him. But then if a 1LT walked up with the 2LT there, I would salute the 1LT as he out ranks the 2LT. Or if I am walking with a 2LT and walk past a 1LT I would salute the 1LT since, once again the 1LT outranks the 2LT that I am with. When it comes to officer ranks you should always show the proper respect and courtesy to the higher ranking officer. I don't feel that there should ever be any question as to whether a 2LT should salute a 1LT.

Response by SFC Bradley Clark made Feb 28 at 2014 8:43 PM

2014-02-28T20:43:18-05:00

When I was in the Army I strongly encouraged/demanded that all soldiers will respect the rank regardless if you did not like the person.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2014 2:05 AM

2014-03-01T02:05:27-05:00

Well then there it is...you are right and everyone else is JACKED UP - enough said.

Response by CPT Thomas Day made Mar 2 at 2014 11:19 AM

2014-03-02T11:19:39-05:00

It may be the correct thing to do, but I don't ever recall doing so as a 2LT. Nor do I recall expecting it as a 1LT. The only salute I expected from an 2LT was as a CPT or above.

Response by SGM Jerry Finin made Mar 2 at 2014 11:26 PM

2014-03-02T23:26:19-05:00

Bottom line up front salute the senior officer, this need not be a topic of discussion in my professional opinion!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2014 2:11 AM

2014-03-03T02:11:52-05:00

Regulations are regulations. I loved saluting 1LTs when I was a 2LT. I get a great number of weird looks, but sadly it's definitely something that is done less and less.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Mar 3 at 2014 12:53 PM

2014-03-03T12:53:29-05:00

For the love of life and Audie Murphy, please RallyPoint, stop the madness and close this discussion!!  This has been going on for 4 months now and every time I see I want to scream; and I don't think I'm alone in that feeling

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2014 3:51 PM

2014-03-03T15:51:21-05:00

Yes the regulation states it is rendered to the higher rank and that is a higher rank. I also hate to hear officers refer to each other by first name in public forum.

Response by SPC David Solotky made Mar 3 at 2014 5:59 PM

2014-03-03T17:59:08-05:00

Yes plain and simple they should.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2014 7:33 PM

2014-03-03T19:33:20-05:00

In a sense that is kind of like asking should a SPC stand at parade rest for a CPL. In a sense they are both the same grade. And i understand a 1st Lt is that of a different grade then a 2nd LT. However both are LTs. Well back the the enlisted side regardless of the fact that both are E4s the Cpl still by default of holding a leadership position outranks said SPC therefore the specialist should stand at parade rest. So with all being said. YES a 2LT should salute a 1LT.

Response by CW3 Ian Mains made Mar 4 at 2014 8:21 AM

2014-03-04T08:21:13-05:00

I get what the regulation says, but I've alwayd heard that LT's treat it the same as WO's. That is, it's not going to be done. Anywhere I've been other than the school house if a WO salutes another WO it usually ends up awkwardly.

Response by SFC Don J. made Mar 4 at 2014 6:47 PM

2014-03-04T18:47:37-05:00

Not only should a 2LT salute a 1LT, but they should also salute a senior 2LT and a 1LT should salute a senior 1LT, etc.

Of course they would have to know the other outranks them. If in doubt, salute.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2014 7:34 PM

2014-03-04T19:34:06-05:00

Absolutely a 2nd LT needs to salute a 1st LT. There is a rank structure for a reason and it is not up to interpretation. This is like saying me as a SSG shouldn't salute a 2nd LT because I have more time in the Army, which is wrong as well, or saying that a SGT shouldn't stand at parade rest for a SSG as well. Just because you are an officer doesn't mean that you are bigger than customs and courtesies (AR 600-25), we all fall under the AR. If you are of higher ranking then you deserve the proper respect rendered. Quit trying to leave it up to interpretation because you don't want to do it and you would rather play the buddy code with each other. Do the right thing, remember soldiers see what officers do as well as NCO's. Set the right example!

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2014 7:38 PM

2014-03-04T19:38:02-05:00

No way, rank among lieutenants is like virtue among (enter whatever you want here). It's kind of like a PV2 pulling rank on a PVT.

Response by Lt Col Larry Gamble made Mar 4 at 2014 10:37 PM

2014-03-04T22:37:20-05:00

I can't believe the seasoned vets who are getting the mentoring and peer thing confused with rendering proper military courtesy.  The 1LT out ranks and is a superior officer to the 2LT; end of discussion and the junior officer owes a salute to the senior officer.  In the work center, yes they are more equal and can be more casual when addressing each other but they also have to know that when in public they must render proper courtesies.<div><br></div>

Response by CW3 Ian Mains made Mar 5 at 2014 12:25 AM

2014-03-05T00:25:27-05:00

So let's take this a step further and see what everyone, especially my fellow Warrants, think about WOs saluting other WOs.

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 12:36 PM

2014-03-05T12:36:00-05:00

Having spent 10 years in the Army and now on my 13th year in the Navy I can tell you why there should be a salute. First it is a documented regulation and supports good order and discipline and respect. We are not all equal, one is a 2LT and one is a 1LT. You earned that rank. You are not saluting a person but the rank. You may wonder why such the big fuss. Well why have a regulation then...or any regulations? These are customs and courtesies that served previous military members well. In the Navy they have gone down this path we are discussing and the result is an officer/NCO corps that is questioned at the lower levels of authority (PO/ENS/LTJGs/etc). These are a code of conduct that play into how we conduct ourselves in situations civilians cannot appreciate.

Response by SFC Walter Mack made Mar 5 at 2014 3:55 PM

2014-03-05T15:55:30-05:00

So we have a new 1LT show up in our S3 shop, and as far as I know, he's just another young officer in need of mentorship and guidance. Wrong, he's a former SFC. Sometimes you just don't know who that person walking the other way is, so err on the side of doing the right thing. There may be exceptions to customs and courtesies, but they should be dear to the environment and so well guarded that they do not enter into social media, and are only practiced between warriors well acquainted with one another.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 10:54 PM

2014-03-05T22:54:43-05:00

I could care less what two LT do with each other, although if I was an LT I would.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2014 5:19 PM

2014-03-06T17:19:48-05:00

As a PSG, I would walk with the PL I had. If someone enlisted or officer didn't render a salute I would stop them, instruct them, and reference it (if it was not known). I did the same thing and still do if the officer I'm working with or for does that to a enlisted member. I work for a COL now and when we are out I still make mention of this if the situation arises. I'm not running through parking lots but using situational awareness with judgment to insure it still happens. I don't do this for more then one simply thing. It is one of the oldest customs within our ranks. I know a lot of old thought is leaving, but this one should stay.

Response by Sgt Matthew O'Donnell made Mar 7 at 2014 8:50 AM

2014-03-07T08:50:16-05:00

I watched my SGTMAJ salute anything shiny that walked past him, and being from a flying squadron that's a lot of brass walking around. He had boots with more time in service than some of these pilots. But he had respect for the rank, just like a 2LT should for a 1LT. "Do the right thing, because its the right thing to do" SGTMAJ Carter MALS-14<br>

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2014 3:57 PM

2014-03-07T15:57:36-05:00

A second lieutenant should always render appropriate honors to the first lieutenant and the junior officer (measured in rank, not years or experience) should always initiate the salute to the senior, with a few extenuating circumstances, like quarterdeck watch for example. I propose to you, if we don't enforce these sacred traditions, then who? If the enlisted personnel see that proper customs and courtesies aren't being rendered, how do we expect them to do the same?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2014 3:03 PM

2014-03-09T15:03:00-04:00

That's like saying a E5 shouldn't stand at perade rest for an E6

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2014 3:03 PM

2014-03-09T15:03:03-04:00

That's like saying a E5 shouldn't stand at perade rest for an E6

Response by SSG Jeffery Nebel made Mar 9 at 2014 4:10 PM

2014-03-09T16:10:20-04:00

Yes, and especially in front of junior enlisted. Plain and simple, do the right thing, even when no one else is looking.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2014 4:12 PM

2014-03-09T16:12:06-04:00

Short answer is...YES. If for no other reason than thats the regulation. 1LT or not, there is a rank structure for a reason.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Mar 10 at 2014 8:21 AM

2014-03-10T08:21:20-04:00

Gentlemen, it is pretty straight forward. On approach, you salute an officer who out ranks you. A 1LT outranks a 2LT every day of the week. It is not about ego, it is about customs and courtesies. Warriors salute their Commanders. We salute our officers, and officers salute officers that outrank them. It is the way it is. It is not demeaning or demoralizing in any way.

Response by SPC Steven M. made Mar 10 at 2014 8:44 PM

2014-03-10T20:44:59-04:00

as per rank there is a exchange of respect the 2nd lt should salute the 1st lt 

Response by SSG Gordon Hill made Mar 10 at 2014 9:06 PM

2014-03-10T21:06:40-04:00

The junior always salutes the senior, no excuses, no changing the rules regarless of who you are.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 10:55 AM

2014-03-13T10:55:49-04:00

You just cited the order that the junior person should salute the senior. In the Marine Corps junior is junior and you render the salute regardless if they are both LT's or not. One is still senior than the other.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 2:18 PM

2014-03-13T14:18:54-04:00

No. Next question.

Response by SSG Gordon Hill made Mar 14 at 2014 8:35 AM

2014-03-14T08:35:31-04:00

You render the salute to higher rank if you arfe 2nd LT and are approaching a 1st LT he out ranks you by virture of a higher you must salute him no bending the rules of the AR.

Response by SSG Ronnie Sollod made Mar 14 at 2014 3:09 PM

2014-03-14T15:09:53-04:00

Agree with SSG Hebert.

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Mar 14 at 2014 4:43 PM

2014-03-14T16:43:31-04:00

I know what the regs say, but in practice, it really depends on the relative position in the command structure.

As a 1LT platoon leader, there was no way that I was going to ever expect a salute from a 2LT platoon leader. Now, had I been the CO at 1LT, even a 1LT platoon leade would be expected to salute.

Deployed? doesn't matter. In garrison with multiple units? Follow your CO and 1SG's lead.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2014 10:16 PM

2014-03-14T22:16:48-04:00

I saluted 1LTs as a 2LT. I feel that if you expect your Soldiers to salute you, then you should be saluting your superiors.

Response by SPC(P) Delcina Myers made Mar 15 at 2014 12:06 AM

2014-03-15T00:06:54-04:00

Sir, I believe that you should still salute a 1LT, being a 2LT... The reason behind this is because although you see each other as "Just a LT", s/he is still a pay grade higher, meaning that the "Just a LT" is still your senior. That is what I believe. Do you think a Brigadier General should salute a Major General, being that they are "Just a General"? Same concept. :) Hope this helps, Sir!

Response by SSG Mike Angelo made Mar 15 at 2014 5:11 AM

2014-03-15T05:11:44-04:00

where are your eyes ??? Salute the uniform, not the servicemember.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2014 5:25 PM

2014-03-16T17:25:27-04:00

You should continue to salute and correct those that fail to do so. I had a 1SG that said, if you see something and dont correct it, you just set a new standard.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2014 6:03 PM

2014-03-17T18:03:57-04:00

Does a SGT(P) have to stand at parade rest when talking to a SSG? No even have to ask sir. Even if you just got out of West Point, with 22 yrs of age and I have been deployed 20 times, you still have the commission you earn. You have to get the greeting of the day if indoor. Basic Customs and Courtesies. But this goes other ways also.

Some junior officers (2LT, 1LT and CPT's) need to be aware that a SFC's, SSG's and even some SPC's have been in the Army more years than they have in college. Majority of them are very humble and get together with their soldiers and learn from them the deals of the mission. But then you got the ones that just go straight to pull rank and have the SNCO's just blowing back to them to the point that I have seen LT's cry; this should not happen, because respect goes first, but the experiences that SNCO have will be some that the officer might never get to experience.

I have seen this only twice and both times in Korea. My lieutenants so far have been younger than me, but very smart and just hungry for learning, to the point that we have to remind them "Sir, this is the guys job, let them work too."

Sadly, some of them got worn out and burnt by the politics and got out to do bigger and better things (according to them, I don't agree on the bigger and better part).

Also you get the ones that just don't care and "blow you off" when you greet them; others let enlisted soldiers walk by and don't greet them; some are scare to correct on the spot just because they are a "new LT" or just don't care.

Guess what, sir/ma'am? Stop for a moment, turn around and tell that NCO or junior enlisted on the spot! Because letting it go just contributes to the rampant indiscipline that happens in our ranks.

I have seen first hand this and I'm just amaze of the respect that "new LT" has after.

Discipline is the foundation and it should start from the top.

Success to you LT

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2014 12:26 AM

2014-03-18T00:26:41-04:00

Yes, it's called customs and courtesies.

More frustrating is when officers refuse to return an enlisted soldier's salute... I see it all the time. The regulation does not give an officer the option to not return the salute, it stipulates that salutes WILL be exchanged... It's just the junior rank that initiates it.

There were several that would do this to my new soldiers around post. It really killed their moral and respect for regulations to be ignored. My advice to them... Soldiers, when you see that officer walking down the sidewalk make sure you separate by about 10 feet apart and render a stiff salute and forceful greeting of the day. Make him/her pump that right hand up and down like an aerobics routine, and if he/she ignores you let me know... There's this thing called the open door policy with the first sergeant.

AR 600-25

1–5. Hand salutes and salutes with arms
a. For instructions on executing the hand salute, see FM 3–21.5, paragraph 4–4.
b. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service entitled to the salute.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 7:17 AM

2014-03-19T07:17:50-04:00

I'm right at the door of 27 years time in service (not to include the 7 year break in service). I've gone from Private to MAJ. I know that this tradition of saluting senior officers supports our way of life and the mindset we must have to be an effective fighting force. Discipline needs practice and needs to be ingrained before the leader is under stress. Never forget, America has entrusted to us the responsibility to have the skills and the discipline necessary to protect our people, our way of life, and bring as many of America's sons and daughters home as possible. Saluting is and should be an element of discipline and courtesy. Never forget that thousands of Soldiers have preceded you, and many have given their lives to allow you the privilege of saluting and, in your case an a LT, to be saluted. If a LT is brought up without Army standards then when they get more seniority they won't have the skills to teach/guide/create the next generation of Soldiers America deserves.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 12:30 PM

2014-03-19T12:30:46-04:00

<p>The regulation does support your point, on paper. In reality, 2LTs and 1LTs are so close in rank, experiance, and position that a salute is not usually rendered. In fact, LTs are expected to work and socialize so closely that a salute could degrade these relationships. </p><p> </p><p>As a 2LT I never saluted 1LTs and never expected one as a 1LT.</p>

Response by SGT Matt Nickeson made Mar 20 at 2014 10:00 AM

2014-03-20T10:00:27-04:00

How is this a discussion? YES. 

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Mar 20 at 2014 7:13 PM

2014-03-20T19:13:09-04:00

Yes, he is after all your superior officer. I a Warrant officer or senior Non-commissioned officer has to salute you then you should have to salute every officer superior to you no matter how close in rank they are.

Response by Thomas Rancourt made Mar 20 at 2014 10:15 PM

2014-03-20T22:15:36-04:00

Like you said Sir, per REGULATION. If a regulation states that you must do so to show the correct customs and courtesies, then that is how the ball rolls. I have been in instances where I began to salute, but the senior member (officer) has told me "It's all good", or "Carry on". This is the only time you should see someone not salute or not complete the action. Otherwise, they earned that rank through their own sweat, so they should be respected for it. If not out of respect, then out of requirement of regulation. There are tiers in the enlisted force structure (i.e. Airman Tier, NCO Tier, etc.), However, this does not apply to officer force structure because each rank is different and unique unto itself.

Response by SSG Joshua Chancey made Mar 21 at 2014 8:07 AM

2014-03-21T08:07:21-04:00

Absolutely. As a SSG I expected my SGT's to stand at parade rest when speaking to me and the same goes for myself when speaking to a SFC. Of course the moment my SGT's showed this respect I would immediately tell them to "relax". If they didn't show this gesture of respect the conversation would immediately turn in a different direction.

I don't see how this is any different for expecting a 2LT to show some respect to a 1LT. Am I missing something here?

Response by SSG Jeffery Nebel made Mar 21 at 2014 11:12 AM

2014-03-21T11:12:12-04:00

Every. Single. Time. There is no sarcasm here, you are officers in the Army, you earned that rank.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 11:35 AM

2014-03-21T11:35:53-04:00

I am currently a 2LT and have run into this problem because I do salute a 1LT when we meet and then they look at me funny. I do it out of respect

Response by MAJ Pat Rimron made Mar 21 at 2014 1:43 PM

2014-03-21T13:43:45-04:00

Not in the Army, 2LTs never salute 1LT's. There is nearly 100yrs of tradition to support this....

Response by SSgt Robert Harriott made Mar 21 at 2014 3:48 PM

2014-03-21T15:48:59-04:00

Double post, my bad. Can't delete it. Just edit it

Response by SSgt Robert Harriott made Mar 21 at 2014 3:51 PM

2014-03-21T15:51:51-04:00

Eliminate the names then because it seems to be what's tripping up everyone who thinks it ok to not salute. Should an O1 salute an O2? Every time until the senior says he doesn't personally require it. But in a place of business around other servicemen it shows respect towards the senior in addition to showing that they know their rank structure. Otherwise you make the impression that you are a bag or full of yourself to everyone around that sees it. Being in the service you are expected to maintain a certain image. And it happens to be in the regulations so there should be no debate.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 5:39 PM

2014-03-21T17:39:41-04:00

Military customs and courtesies exist for a reason and should be followed. I have seen both ends of the spectrum, officers and enlisted walking the other way to purposely avoid saluting. You may not have to respect the person, but always respect the rank and salute accordingly. Doing so not only demonstrates proper military decorum, but also indirectly mentors those who are watching.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 8:19 PM

2014-03-21T20:19:06-04:00

absolutely. yes.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 8:39 PM

2014-03-21T20:39:10-04:00

<p>A 2LT should salute a 1LT ALWAYS. Should a SPC go to Parade Rest for a newly promoted E5 who just a day ago was his peer? Yes, they should, because that person has earned it.</p><p><br></p><p>I was a 1LT attending CPT's career course, all of my peers in that class were Captain's. During class, we would be engaged in the same exact work and duties. Walking to class every morning I would see them walking to class and I would salute! </p><p><br></p><p>When I was in that same class I would see the BOLC class going into the same building. At the time I thought it was the accepted practice that LT's did not salute each other. As I am saluting every CPT that walks by myself, I salute. I received the same courtesy from the 2LT from about 25% of them. It wasn't until I passed a 2LT (he did not salute), that a CPT behind me corrected him. That CPT didn't stop there he also corrected me. Ever since then, I uphold the written standard over the normal practice because it is the right thing to do.</p><p><br></p><p>We live and learn every day, as a 2LT you are not expected to know all the answers but now that you do know, what will you do with it?</p><p><br></p>

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 11:09 PM

2014-03-21T23:09:39-04:00

Simple Answer...Always salute when you are outranked by the officer.

Response by SGT Brett Caldwell made Mar 22 at 2014 10:35 PM

2014-03-22T22:35:09-04:00

This thread is ludicrous. Do the regs say you should? Yes. Do you ALWAYS? No. I worked in the JOC at Bagram. As a SGT, if I stood at attention every time I spoke to an officer, or at parade rest for every senior NCO, zero work would be completed.

There's a time and place for everything. If you need to set an example in front of a group of privates, do it. If not, get the job done.

For all you folks "sticking to the regs" no matter what, enjoy the garrison life, you were designed for it. I did a couple years (served 02-07) of garrison life and it was the mentality of the leadership from the 90's that solidified my decision to separate.

Response by PO3 Mark Gray made Mar 23 at 2014 1:47 AM

2014-03-23T01:47:01-04:00

That's just about the same thing if a 20 year + warrant officer meets a brand new second lieutenant. The 20 year + warrant officer MUST salute the new second lieutenant. If the brand new second lieutenant is one of those who would report it, it could ruin the 20 year + warrant officer's career. So a second lieutenant ALWAYS must salute anyone higher than their rank, even if it is first lieutenant. That first lieutenant can ruin a second lieutenant's career for disrespecting a senior officer. Being a Navy veteran, anyone who thinks it's ok for second lieutenants to not salute first lieutenants needs to have their careers reexamined and their chain of command reevaluated. An ensign in the Navy always salutes a lieutenant junior grade which is O-1 to O-2 respectively.

Response by PO3 Mark Gray made Mar 23 at 2014 1:58 AM

2014-03-23T01:58:42-04:00

One more thing I forgot to mention... in my A school in Pensacola, Fl, I was on my way somewhere and my class leader was right behind me and we were going in the same direction. There was an officer and I saluted. The marine behind me didn't and got his rear end chewed for failure to salute. Then in the mess line, one of my marine friends asked me "how do you know when to salute since E-7's wear the same uniforms as officers." I told him that if it's a garrison cap, chiefs only have one rank device, but officers have two. If they wear the combination cover, chiefs have their rank and a black chin strap where officers have something bigger and a gold chin strap. But if you can't tell, salute anyways. Better to be wrong to a chief than to be wrong to an officer. I saluted a chief and he just said "Do I look like an officer to you? I work for a living."

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2014 5:28 AM

2014-03-23T05:28:57-04:00

I realize this is an older thread but I have been reading many responses and am surprised that anyone would say they shouldn't. Many of our traditions are beginning to fade and I see many officers and senior NCOs being the root cause. Absolutely a 2LT to should salute an officer that is senior in rank. And when saluted, it should be PROPERLY returned. It shouldn't be some half cocked thrown up hand with no pride or attention to detail. I'm fed up with saluting officers that just sling their hand up and not return the proper greeting of the day. I show the respect and know for a fact that I deserve to have that same respect returned as a person and professional. Same goes for senior NCOs. When we walk past a senior, we should give the proper greeting and it should be returned. It's professionalism. It's common courtesy and respect. My PSG was a SSG (P) with less TIS as me and you better believe I stood at parade rest when engaged in conversation with her until I was told otherwise. I've been seen standing with one hand behind my back at a modified position of parade rest when talking to a senior NCO on the phone. My soldiers look at me crazy but I'll be damned if I let them see otherwise. My apologies for the rant but "should a 2LT salute a 1LT"? It shouldn't even be a question. And should a 2LT not do it in my presence, I will quickly supply a professional sized dose of education to that 2LT.

Response by GySgt William Hardy made Mar 23 at 2014 10:31 AM

2014-03-23T10:31:24-04:00

1. It is regulation.

2. It is a time-honored tradition.

3. There are even occasions for enlisted members to render salutes to one another.

4. Officers set the example. If you can't, you shouldn't be holding your commission. If you do not want enlisted disrespecting you, do not disrespect one another.

Response by CW5 Bruce Watts made Mar 25 at 2014 7:59 PM

2014-03-25T19:59:02-04:00

Of course -unless in a sniper-rich environment.

Next question?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2014 6:09 AM

2014-03-26T06:09:25-04:00

If its in the reg, follow it. We salute, all senior officers and if a 1LT gives you guf they are not adhereing to the standard.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2014 7:05 AM

2014-03-26T07:05:55-04:00

Customs and Courtesies. The 1Lt outranks the 2Lt and I know they see each other as Lieutenants

Response by TSgt Kevin Buccola made Mar 26 at 2014 11:01 AM

2014-03-26T11:01:59-04:00

<p>Knights were said to raise their visors with their right hand upon greeting a comrade or superior.  </p><p> </p><p>A salute is a privileged gesture which shows a sign of trust and respect - this is a time honored tradition and should continue.  </p><p> </p><p>Yes a 2LT should salute a 1LT.</p>

Response by Maj Jarrod Graham made Mar 26 at 2014 9:06 PM

2014-03-26T21:06:31-04:00

Generally, in practice, a 2nd Lt would only salute a 1st Lt when reporting in a formation, or something similar. I remember being told by a 1st Lt when I showed up as a brand new 2nd Lt, "don't call me sir, and don't salute me, we are lieutenants, and it makes us look dumb when the Marines see it." In practice, anyone who wears one bar, (lieutenants, WOs and CWOs) do not salute one another.

Response by SSG Clayton Lam made Mar 27 at 2014 7:54 AM

2014-03-27T07:54:07-04:00

Asking if a 2LT should salute a 1LT is like asking should a MSG stand at parade rest for a CSM or a SSG for a SFC. Yes, a 2LT should salute a 1LT because that is the regulation. A 2LT is a leader from the beginning. A 2LT is a leaders and their actions could influence the actions of Soldiers. We must do the right thing even when we don't want to. When has this become optional?

Response by SFC Michael Hartwig made Mar 27 at 2014 1:21 PM

2014-03-27T13:21:00-04:00

Too Easy Sir, That is a senior Officer you must salute. Just as a MSG should stand at Parade Rest for his 1SG or SGM fo rhis CSM.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2014 10:02 PM

2014-03-27T22:02:12-04:00

If a 2LT shouldn't have to salute a 1LT does that mean the 1LT doesn't need to salute a CPT or Lt Gen doesn't need to salute a General? The senior officer is entitled to the salute regardless.

Response by GySgt William Hardy made Mar 28 at 2014 8:26 AM

2014-03-28T08:26:27-04:00

It seems that this question cannot be answered because even among the officers that posted, there are differences of opinions. When I went to the Army regulations, All I found was the that juniors salute seniors. Just because the Army, Air Force, and Marine Corps have two different ranks of Lt does not mean they are equal. A 1LT is senior to a 2LT.

Let me make my case like this. In the Navy and Coast Guard they have Ensigns and not 2LTs. What they have are LT Junior Grade (1LT in other services) and Lt (Captain) in the other services. Now tell me? Is a LTJG junior to a LT? Yes they are and salutes are exchanged.

I will also admit that my interpretation of Army regs is influenced by my 11 1/2 years of active service with the Marine Corps. I was out of military life for 5 years while attending college and getting a job. When i returned, I joined the Army National Guard and had to learn about Army regulations. Having served at Patch Barracks in Stuttgart, GE (it is a joint service post and an important HQ for the US military and thus swarming with officers of all ranks, especially Majors and above...just a footnote for those who didn't know) I knew there were many differences in customs and traditions. When I read the regs then and when I looked up the regs on-line the other day, it only said that juniors were to render a salute to a senior officer. Because of what I posted above, I still say that a 2LT is junior and should salute all the officers above his/her rank.

Response by CPT Kevin Waldroup made Mar 28 at 2014 10:26 AM

2014-03-28T10:26:15-04:00

<p>The salute is warranted. That being said a 2LT and a 1LT who are both platoon leaders will have a different working relationship than a 2LT platoon leader and a 1LT in a command position. Leaders are supposed to set the example.</p><p> </p><p>BTW, interesting perspective, as an officer I had to perform way more salutes than I did when I was enlisted. Enlisted only have to salute officers, officers have to salute any officer that is of higher rank and return the salute of all enlisted soldiers and officers of lower rank. Something to think about.</p>

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 10:52 AM

2014-03-28T10:52:26-04:00

<p>Single bars don't salute other single bars. -Unwritten Rules Handbook</p><p> </p><p>By the time you do pull out that salute, you'll be a 1stLt.</p>

Response by SPC Christopher Seitler made Mar 28 at 2014 2:06 PM

2014-03-28T14:06:56-04:00

The obvious answer is, yes.
Unless you are in a situation that precludes saluting, such as a combat environment (or combat-simulated environment, when training).

The exception to this is when the two officers are meeting informally and outside the view of others, and both know each other well enough to understand there is no ill-will meant by not presenting a salute.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Mar 28 at 2014 2:34 PM

2014-03-28T14:34:10-04:00

For the love of gawd, please drag this dead horse off the battlefield!!! :D

Response by SFC Benjamin Harrison made Mar 29 at 2014 2:40 PM

2014-03-29T14:40:03-04:00

As stated in AR 600-25 there is no discussion, Service Members of junior rank will salute officers of senior rank. Compare this to the enlisted side, as a SSG I must stand at Parade Rest when speaking to SFC, just as a SGT must do as they are speaking to a SSG. Customs and courtesies exist in the Military Service for a reason, they invoke discipline.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 7:41 AM

2014-03-30T07:41:55-04:00

If the 1LT is the 2LT's Company Commander, then absolutely. In all other instances, I would not consider it necessary. 2LTs and 1LTs are peers and should be on a first name basis.

Response by MAJ Jim Burke made Mar 31 at 2014 12:07 AM

2014-03-31T00:07:00-04:00

and this is the kind of "Tradition" we pay attention to, while incompetent, ill-trained, so-called 'leaders' rant and rave...while totally clueless. I am all for traditions, saluting, blah-blah-blah. But how about living up to that salute, instead of riding on the asses of real freaking leaders, Officers and NCOs alike...? I told my newest charges that at the end of our tour together, I was saluted only for my rank...I failed as a leader. Be, Know, DOOOOOOOOOOO.

Response by CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 6:01 PM

2014-03-31T18:01:06-04:00

It doesn't bother me to do it at all, but it usually bothers them! This of course only inspires me to continue with vigor.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2014 6:24 PM

2014-04-01T18:24:55-04:00

What confuses me the most is how people forget the O in NCO is Officer. Instead of just saying "Officer" people need to be more specific. The only difference is whether or not they have a commission.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Apr 1 at 2014 11:39 PM

2014-04-01T23:39:57-04:00

Ok, the horse is dead, put the whip down and walk away. Please! Regulations clearly state that if you are a lower rank that you must salute anyone who outranks you. Just because you are close in rank does not exclude you from saluting a senior officer. Asking this question is like asking if a Lieutenant Colonel should Salute a Full Bird Colonel, and so on up the chain of command through the Generals. Let it go already.

Response by CW3 Ian Mains made Apr 2 at 2014 4:53 AM

2014-04-02T04:53:10-04:00

I can't believe I am still getting emails about this topic. Upvote this post if you think it's time to just let it go and move onto real issues. Is there any way to lock this thread so that we don't have to poison our eyes any longer by reading 900 more people posting generally in agreement? We get it, everyone thinks 2LTs should salute 1LTs. Downvote if you think this is a serious discipline issue and needs to be readdressed in a regulation update. Moving on to topics that actually affect me...

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Apr 2 at 2014 7:41 PM

2014-04-02T19:41:10-04:00

hmmmm-does the 1LT warrant it? I have met a number of idiots masquerading as officers, as my battalion XO put it. The concept of discipline and respect exists by regulation and by tradition. Practicality is another story. I had a company commander who got drunk, knocked down his girl-friends door, smacked her around, and was arrested by civilian police. He insisted he was a tough character, but was dysfunctional as a human being. He failed miserably per various Army testing, etc. I refused to call him sir, and would only refer to him by rank and name.

Our battalion commander overrode his FO and called in direct fire on his own position causing a lot of damage. He played with himself in front of everyone and was otherwise a completely dysfunctional human being. When your chain of command is made up of aberrant personalities, then respect is a very difficult commodity to give.

That being said, I also had some outstanding officers I would have followed anywhere.

So, if saluting is a time-honored sign of respect, and those being saluted do not warrant it, then there are a whole host of other problems in play-none of them good-and when does the command rectify the ensuing morale problems? Because saluting is now the least of your problems.

Response by SSG Craig Thompson made Apr 2 at 2014 7:43 PM

2014-04-02T19:43:00-04:00

That one is simple if they out rank you salute.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2014 8:42 PM

2014-04-02T20:42:48-04:00

I see the salute as a significant sign of respect. Though it might not always be the right answer, some do avoid saluting officers they dont believe have earned the right. I will always recognize a commissioned officer, but a salute should be an exchange, a sign showing thank you for serving alongside me

Response by SPC Geoffrey Jenkins made Apr 3 at 2014 9:22 AM

2014-04-03T09:22:51-04:00

It is called Military Courtesy and the answer is YES!

Response by CW2 Jonathan Kantor made Apr 3 at 2014 10:00 PM

2014-04-03T22:00:53-04:00

It's one of those things... the 2LT should salute the 1LT but I don't know many who do. Warrants are supposed to salute each other, but we almost never do. My policy has always been to salute a senior when I meet them, let them tell me to knock it off, and then I don't do it again. But I also never berate WO1s for not saluting me... I do know some Warrants who do, which is correct according to the Reg... well, not berating them, saluting them.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2014 12:30 AM

2014-04-04T00:30:14-04:00

on saluting I've a friend that is a SEAL and seen ltjgs salute not but his budwiser. I've another friend that has both a Ranger and a Sapper tad both get respect from lower and higher ranks.

Response by SSgt Robert Harriott made Apr 4 at 2014 12:49 AM

2014-04-04T00:49:37-04:00

Due to the major controversy this is stirring and it seems to all be from the officers who are in support that no salute is required where the enlisted all actually know the rule, I pose a new question. Should the gate guard be required to salute a blue sticker when only the spouse is driving? I ask this because it is just as stupid as the original question. The answer is yes, regardless of who is driving. Per the order that you salute any vehicle with a blue decal.  Now if the spouse wants to be a dick, you turn slightly towards the windshield and issue a "good ______, sticker".  Just because you don't agree with a general order, does not give you the leisure of ignoring it. If a senior officer tells you one is not required, you oblige, unless in public where other servicemen are present, then you issue the salute to your superior regardless. Then is when it is shown as a sign of respect as opposed to a requirement. And if your first Lt has a problem with that, then tell him to promote you. I'm very disappointed in all of the senior officers who are taking such a stance on ignoring this most basic of orders.  Mostly because there are still young active servicemen who are on this site who will take this misguided and opinionated information as fact and run with it.  If you don't want to salute your superiors and uphold one of the easiest and oldest traditions that our branches still utilize, how long until the rest of your professional fiber is frayed? 

Response by Cpl Jason Travis made Apr 4 at 2014 11:46 AM

2014-04-04T11:46:32-04:00

Oh, where to start.... One of the principle differences between being a military person versus a civilian is we follow orders and don't make exceptions or excuses. We don't ask why, or refuse to do a regulation because it's uncomfortable or "silly" in our opinion. It is akin to not moving while at attention. To a civilian it is silly. To a military person sitting in the bush, surprising an enemy with an ambush, this basic discipline is the difference between life and death. Sure, no one has ever died because of not saluting, but if you can't follow the simple orders, how are you going to follow the hard ones?

Cpl Travis, USMC

Ooh-rah!

Response by SFC Walter Mack made Apr 4 at 2014 2:19 PM

2014-04-04T14:19:38-04:00

I have to wonder why this is such an issue. I understand that culturally, there are places where a 2LT doesn't salute a 1LT. Great, grand, wonderful. However, there are officers on this discussion stating that there is no regulatory requirement for this. As I'm in the Army, I'll address the Army regulatory requirement. AR 600-25 para 1-5.b. is seemingly clear on the matter, "All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute.
Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of
the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps
of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service
entitled to the salute."

I am genuinely curious as to what interpretation of this excludes LTs from the requirement. I understand cultural exceptions to regulation, as we all know that each Army leader picks and chooses what regulations they feel are important and are willing to enforce. It is also quite impossible to follow all regulations, as we are always breaking at least 37 that we aren't even aware of. Regardless, this regulation is clear that 'technically', a 2LT will salute a 1LT. This makes it appear that some are protecting a tradition of non-compliance, and it is hurting the command structure overall by potentially reducing the respect that Soldiers have for their officers. If I am misunderstanding this in some way, please clear it up for all of us by discussing regulatory requirements.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2014 3:33 PM

2014-04-04T15:33:22-04:00

Yes.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2014 12:32 PM

2014-04-06T12:32:31-04:00

It is a custom and a courtesy. There should be no question.

Of note, I certainly enjoy this discussion. What an outstanding site this Rallypoint. I would challenge some of you Command Officers to implement discussion and development sessions like this across your ranks. Never could I imagine seeing the entire Army rank structure have a discussion about any subject.

Pleased!

Response by WO1(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2014 7:45 PM

2014-04-06T19:45:58-04:00

Is this a serious question?

Response by SGT Frank Leonardo made Apr 7 at 2014 2:15 AM

2014-04-07T02:15:27-04:00

You always Salute an officer no matter what rank he or she is for Respect and Honor and yes a time honored tradition. I think LTC Gene Shewbert made a valid point about it. Yes I was a NCO and encounter the fresh LT and instead of thinking oh boy here we again, helped him or her understand the ways that things got done so we could function as a TEAM not a dead end street and just banging heads.

Response by SSG William Sutter made Apr 7 at 2014 2:32 AM

2014-04-07T02:32:48-04:00

Yes. It is standard Military Customs and Courtesies.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2014 4:25 PM

2014-04-07T16:25:21-04:00

A "butter bar" should salute everyone!!!!<div><br></div><div>j.k. yes a 1LT is a rank higher than you. </div>

Response by SPC Brian Jones made Apr 8 at 2014 4:38 PM

2014-04-08T16:38:39-04:00

Butter Bars Should simply be ignored. EM as well as Officers. Just saying. LOL

Response by Cpl Jason Travis made Apr 11 at 2014 10:36 PM

2014-04-11T22:36:17-04:00

As far as the 1st Lt and 2nd Lt being the same rank- do they get paid the same? If a 2nd Lt commits a UCMJ level offense against the 1st Lt. Would they be tried at the same rank? I think not. As far as it being an Army tradition, that may be so, but there is a difference between informal practice and regulations. In a lot of military units personnel don't wear covers (hats) outdoors even though it is DOD policy (I see it all the time on JBLM). <div><br></div>

Response by SSgt Robert Harriott made Apr 14 at 2014 1:11 PM

2014-04-14T13:11:19-04:00

Our apparently stirred up quite a storm here sir. It seems to be a general divide between the brass and the chevrons. When in doubt just follow the advisement of your senior NCOs and SNCOs. After all, they've been in longer than most low ranking officers and at least know the orders.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2014 4:48 PM

2014-04-14T16:48:11-04:00

Answer: Undoubtedly YES. Honestly I find young Lieutenants apprehension towards saluting annoying (when it exists) and undermining of both principal and tradition. With respect I find that there is much indiscipline within the Officer Corps and it makes many of us sick. I hear time and again especially from field grade Officers that NCO's do a piss poor job of policing the ranks. Then those same individuals are the ones walking to their car with no headgear and hands in their pockets. Or, more on topic, the same field grade Officer that will acknowledge you as you march by but does not return your salute. Yes there is much indiscipline in the enlisted ranks and NCO corps as well, but Officers are a constant example. Always a leader, it gets tiring seeing the Soldier who is supposed to be a vision of discipline wonder why the giant list of rules only applies to them and not the Commanders they are supposed to look up to.

Response by CPO Rob Schrader made Apr 14 at 2014 8:30 PM

2014-04-14T20:30:59-04:00

Yes!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2014 10:00 AM

2014-04-15T10:00:04-04:00

Per the regulation...Yes...I know it was weird for me coming from the enlisted side, I saw a 1LT and would call them "Sir" or "Ma'am" but was quickly told..."We are both LTs, so just relax"....I really doubt any 1LT out there expects a 2LT to salute...but I am sure there is one.

Response by 1SG Anthony Bly (Retired) made Apr 15 at 2014 10:18 PM

2014-04-15T22:18:58-04:00

Sir, the fact that we are even having this conversation is concerning. I mean should a 2LT salute a 1LT?? Absolutely, all day long, 365.... I'm not dismissing your question as unimportant. I'm concerned that this kind of question even has to be asked implying that there are those currently active who aren't doing what is right. As for those officers who think a LT is a LT regardless, they need to be checked and fixed. Customs and Courtesies must be enforced at the lowest level and continually reinforced at all levels (off post, on duty, off duty, PX, Commissary, Shoppettes, etc.). Keep enforcing the standard Sir otherwise a new standard will be created.

Response by SSgt Kevin Dunlap made Apr 16 at 2014 11:40 PM

2014-04-16T23:40:08-04:00

2lt's should salute everyone. Lol

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 4:12 AM

2014-04-17T04:12:33-04:00

Just a little history...

Most of our rank structure was carried over from the Continental Army:

"The Continental Army carried over the rank structure from the British Army including the subaltern ranks of lieutenant, cornet, ensign and subaltern. Continental Army subalterns ranks were supposed to wear green colored cockades in their hats. State Militias in the American Revolutionary War period had ensign and sometimes subaltern ranks, with the subaltern rank below the ensign rank where they coexisted. In 1800, the United States Army's coronet, ensign and subaltern ranks were replaced by Second lieutenant. In 1862, the United States Navy began using the ensign rank which began using a gold bar as insignia in 1922. Second lieutenants received the gold bar insignia in 1917. When the United States Air Force became a separate military branch from the Army it kept the Army's commissioned officers ranks and insignia."

So, as you can see, there was a combination of the lowest ranks in our Military... Lieutenants along with Coronets, Subalterns, and Ensigns were still given separate ranks out of necessity. In today's army as with any evolving institution, new customs and courtesies and traditions are being made. If, as some on this site wish to believe, I am able to interpret the regulations I'm to uphold and enforce, then I choose to keep the "tradition" of saluting those of whom outrank me. As a prior enlisted service member of both the army and marine corps with almost 16 yrs in, I hold discipline close to my heart. That being said, I choose to not correct a 2LT who also "chooses to interpret" the regulation like others on this thread.

P.S. I'm currently serving as an Adjutant... (TRADITIONALLY the enforcer of junior officer discipline. I suppose that would include 1LT Promotables who were selected for Captain. hmmmmmmmmm

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2014 10:23 AM

2014-04-19T10:23:46-04:00

Saluting is the most basic of military respect. If you roll your eyes and tell that officer junior of you "don't worry about it", you are perpetuating a growing epidemic in the military. Those junior in rank are "required" to salute and that Soldier senior to that junior is "required" to return it. Once you disregard the standard you start a new standard. Let's be part of the solution instead part of the problem.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 9:21 PM

2014-04-20T21:21:28-04:00

The junior should always salute the senior first, but out of mutual respect for each other, it really does not matter who salutes first.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 1:27 AM

2014-04-21T01:27:12-04:00

Bottom line its a reg so yes.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 5:02 PM

2014-04-21T17:02:25-04:00

It's the same concept as a specialist and a corporal. The corporal out ranks the specialist therefore the specialist stands at parade rest. The 2LT should salute the 1LT.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 10:07 PM

2014-04-21T22:07:10-04:00

It boils down to intent being lost in the wording of the regulation. LT is a LT!

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Apr 22 at 2014 11:06 AM

2014-04-22T11:06:27-04:00

<p>Only a 2LT coulld ask this question?  </p><p> </p><p>Should a PFC salute a 2LT?  A PFC has been promoted twice and can find his backside with both hands?</p><p> </p><p>Sir, no disrespect, but of course you should not disrespect an officer senior to you, any more than your rank should be disrespected.  2LT should salute all senior officers, even those with rank the same shape as the one they wear.</p><p> </p><p>Now what lieutenant do in private, or when outside the view of other troops, is between those officers.  IF there was no difference between the two officers then why would they waste the time having two ranks?  Does BG salute an LG, they are both generals?</p>

Response by SPC Matthew Hershey made Apr 22 at 2014 12:38 PM

2014-04-22T12:38:43-04:00

Yes, as outlined in regulation. Does it happen that often, No. I think it comes down to the fact that 2LTs and 1LTs are in the same peer group typically.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Apr 22 at 2014 10:54 PM

2014-04-22T22:54:24-04:00

You will salute those officers of senior rank to you if you want to get saluted by those junior to you. If you ever skip a salute, being junior, do you think it right that those junior to you must salute you?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2014 1:41 PM

2014-04-23T13:41:42-04:00

How’s
this for a curve ball for the thread that won’t seem to end. In the autobiography, Scars of a Soldier, Vernon Heppe’s True story. PFC Heppe, a World War II veteran, fought
all through the Pacific theater and was in continuous combat from 1943 to 1945.
PFC Heppe was awarded the Silver Star, Purple Heart (3rd OLC), and
CIB. PFC Heppe wrote in his memoir that upon returning to States to out-process from the Army,
Soldiers in his unit would not salute Lieutenants who had not been to combat.

Response by GySgt William Hardy made Apr 23 at 2014 2:44 PM

2014-04-23T14:44:00-04:00

Regs are regs....if there is an exception to the rule that makes this legal, then were is the proof? Personally, I don't care if LTs don't salute...I just want to see the proof or is this just a bunch of BS to justify a myth? I cannot find an acceptation to the rule. Is it stated in one of the Officer manuals? If it is going to be continued, then I would suggest one of you officers submit a change to the regulations so that it is included in the next update.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2014 8:46 PM

2014-04-23T20:46:04-04:00

When I was 2LT, I saluted a 1LT and he told me not to because we are peers. Now that I am 1LT, I do not ask the 2LTs to salute me, but if any 2LT salute me, I salute him/her back.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Apr 24 at 2014 5:48 PM

2014-04-24T17:48:35-04:00

Army Regulation 600–25
1–5. Hand salutes and salutes with arms
a. For instructions on executing the hand salute, see FM 3–21.5, paragraph 4–4.
b. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute.
Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of
the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps
of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service
entitled to the salute.
c. The junior person shall salute first. Accompanying the rendering of the hand salute with an appropriate greeting
such as, "Good Morning, Sir" or "Good Morning, Ma’am" is encouraged. Personnel will not salute indoors except
when reporting to a superior officer.
d. The practice of saluting officers in official vehicles (recognized individually by rank or identifying vehicle plates
and/or flags) is considered an appropriate courtesy and will be observed. Salutes are not required to be rendered by or
to personnel who are driving or riding in privately owned vehicles, except by gate guards who will render salutes to
recognized officers in all vehicles unless duties are of such a nature as to make the salute impractical. When military
personnel are acting as drivers of a moving vehicle, they should not initiate a salute.
e. It is customary to salute officers of friendly foreign nations when recognized as such. The commanding general,
U.S. European Command; the commanding general, U.S. Army Europe and Seventh U.S. Army; commanding general,
U.S. Forces Korea and Eighth U.S. Army; commanding general, U.S. Army, Pacific; and commanding general, U.S.
Army, Southern Command, are delegated the authority to establish policies for recognition courtesies prevailing locally
for foreign officials. Should inactivation eliminate any of these commands, the authority will pass down to the next
level of command. This authority will not be delegated further.

"All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute.
Salutes will be exchanged between officers" "c. The junior person shall salute first." O-1 is junior to O-2 DONE. Does anyone want to explain to me that an 2LT is not junior to 1LT? Didn't think so...I hope no one does...but only time will tell.

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Apr 24 at 2014 8:53 PM

2014-04-24T20:53:37-04:00

Simple, yes a junior officer should salute a senior officer, its all about military customs and courtesy.

Response by MAJ Steve Sheridan made Apr 25 at 2014 11:44 AM

2014-04-25T11:44:43-04:00

Yes.

Response by SFC Ned Brownell made Apr 26 at 2014 10:50 PM

2014-04-26T22:50:15-04:00

LT, I don't understand your question. Is the confusion because you both have a single bar, although one is gold and the other is silver? If that's the case, then does a major need to salute a lieutenant colonel? They are both oak leaf clusters... or is the question one of proximity; you don't have to salute the guy with the next closest rank to your own... Yeah, I'm being sarcastic. Hell yes Lieutenant, and as much as it might have pained me to do it on occasion, I always saluted the lieutenants I came across, knowing full well, as someone else mentioned that if based on experience, they should be saluting me. I rendered a proper salute to the lieutenant (1st or 2nd), not because he necessarily deserved it, but because I was trained properly to show respect to those in a position and of a rank higher than mine. You as a 2LT should be showing respect to the 1LT and correcting those individuals (2LT or lower) who are failing to render a salute. My point, LT is that this question shouldn't have even needed to be asked. Now that I have given you an on-the-spot correction, I salute you, Sir!

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2014 2:00 PM

2014-04-27T14:00:27-04:00

Does a 1sg stand at parade rest for a sgm/csm? My point exactly if you don't want to salute don't join the army because unless youre a civilian your gonna salute somebody either higher or lesser in real than you point blank period

Response by SGT James Ferguson made Apr 30 at 2014 11:54 AM

2014-04-30T11:54:01-04:00

Absolutely. 2LTs need to set a standard of responsibility for the younger enlisted soldiers. If an E-5 with multiple deployments and several awards has to salute you, you better damn-well be saluting your superiors too.

Response by SSG Daniel Deiler made May 2 at 2014 4:49 PM

2014-05-02T16:49:36-04:00

The exact verbiage of the regulation was in the OP so we’ll skip ahead to where AR 600-25 addresses Commander’s Discretion where it states, in Paragraph 1-3.(g.) that "Local commanders will carefully review saluting policies for their installations. Where considered desirable in their judgment, they will develop and publish modified saluting policies for congested, student, or high density living areas where saluting would be highly repetitious or otherwise infeasible."

I'm not sure where the confusion arises. Not only is it spelled out in black and white, but I find it difficult for me to believe that a Commander could possibly interpret the words “congested, student, or high density living areas where saluting would be repetitious or otherwise infeasible” to mean that junior officers in the grade of 2nd/1st Lieutenant need not salute each other. It’s not like they’re crawling around everywhere where it would be “highly repetitious or otherwise infeasible.”

Now onto the subject of "tradition." (defined as “a long-established custom or belief that has been passed on.”) This can be rooted in history and be heavily documented or can start simply as an accepted practice. As in "If you fail to correct a deficiency you just established the new standard."

I obviously can't speak from an officer’s POV, but after nearly 20 years Active Duty and my most recent experience working as the Operations NCO in a BDE S3 shop that has been officer heavy for the past 3 years, I see that the officer and enlisted worlds can be, at times, quite different. With that being said, it appears now that it is "tradition" for officers to not salute their peers and subordinates, to address those same peers and subordinates by their first names, and stand around with their hands in their pockets...things that really grind my gears but when corrected by an NCO, they get scowls, dirty looks, and get talked down to like we’re imbeciles or being disrespectful when they make these on the spot corrections like we were charged to do when inducted into the NCO Corps.

"I will discharge carefully and diligently the duties of the grade to which I have been promoted and uphold the traditions and standards of the Army. I understand that soldiers of lesser rank are required to obey my lawful orders. Accordingly, I accept responsibility for their actions. As a noncommissioned officer, I accept the charge to observe and follow the orders and directions given by supervisors acting according to the laws, articles and rules governing the discipline of the Army, I will correct conditions detrimental to the readiness thereof. In so doing, I will fulfill my greatest obligation as a leader and thereby confirm my status as a noncommissioned officer."

I guess in the name of “tradition” we will continue to confuse our new and junior Soldiers by presenting two standards with the same excuse I was always given...”that’s just the way it is.”

Response by SSgt Kevin Dunlap made May 2 at 2014 6:13 PM

2014-05-02T18:13:31-04:00

1. Different rank, different grade, different pay.

Yes, a 2LT should salute a 1LT except under certain established conditions. Stating that they are both lieutenants is like saying all Sgts are the same, all Generals are the same, all Airmen and Privates are the same. It's a rediculous statement.besides 2nd LTs should salute everyone..lol

Response by SSG Robert Burns made May 2 at 2014 11:22 PM

2014-05-02T23:22:02-04:00

Should a NCO salute a 2LT? Why?
Try and answer that question without it being applicable to a 2LT saluting a 1LT.
If you can do that with a reference to some sort of regulation, memorandum, policy, SOP, FM, AR, DA PAM, TC, SMART Book, dash 10, anything I can read; I will concede.
If you cannot, well then I can come up with a bunch of "understandings" and unwritten rules too. Like sticking my hands in my pockets when it's cold.

Response by SFC Harry Fox made May 3 at 2014 5:19 PM

2014-05-03T17:19:59-04:00

Yes, we as leaders need to set the example for our subordinates. 2LT's should salute a 1LT, just as a NCO should stand at Parade Rest for a NCO that is senior to him/her.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2014 6:00 PM

2014-05-04T18:00:56-04:00

The salute should be rendered to officers senior to you regardless. I don't even know why this is a discussion.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2014 6:16 PM

2014-05-04T18:16:31-04:00

This whole thread is absolutely trivial. Interesting how the majority of folks who are commenting in favor of strict enforcement of the letter of the regulation have never been a LT, and are the very same folks who will not enforce standards on a daily basis, allowing Soldiers to walk around wearing the uniform incorrectly, boots bloused around their ankles, soft cap on wrong, hands in their pockets, leaning up against walls, hair out of standard, and overweight as well. And the attitude of some NCOs on here that Officers couldn’t find their ass with both hands without the help of an NCO is culpable.

Response by SGT Shon D. Hill made May 5 at 2014 1:28 AM

2014-05-05T01:28:54-04:00

Fantastic that you are reaching out and utilizing all resources out there, I've signed, hope we all have helped, God Bless Sarge! Doc Hill

Response by Sgt Arthur Went made May 6 at 2014 12:13 AM

2014-05-06T00:13:56-04:00

Absolutely. Respect of your superiors.

Response by 1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2014 11:47 AM

2014-05-06T11:47:57-04:00

I've read a lot of good responses to this question, but I'm not sure many of them understand the point of the question. A few officers have commented to the effect that "it seems all commenters who have not been an O1 or O2 thinks that salutes should be rendered, and almost all officers know better." I think this is on point, so let me try to take a stab with my own explanation...

By regulation, yes, the junior ranking member ALWAYS salutes the senior. However, while it would be easy to answer the question in the context of LTC saluting COL, or even a CSM saluting a 2LT, the dynamic between these ranks is simply NOT the same at between a 1LT and 2LT.

From the date you commission as a 2LT, the time-in-grade requirement is 18 months to promote to 1LT. Once you hit that 18 months, it is nearly impossible not to be promoted effective on that date...I'm talking automatic. Unless you commit a felony or try to quit the military, it's going to happen. Because of this, as well as there being only minor differences in positions held by O1 and O2, Lieutenants = Lieutenants in the officer corps.

Again, regulations are regulations, but like anything in the military, things are just different in practice. As a 2LT, I saluted a 1LT approximately once, after which a CPT in the area walked over, looked me dead in the eye and said "Gardner, a lieutenant is a lieutenant is a lieutenant." In the same respect, if a 1LT tried to reprimand a 2LT for not saluting them, the 1LT would get destroyed by a senior officer. All LT's should understand this, which is why you'd be hard-pressed to find a 1LT who felt disrespected when a 2LT didn't render a salute. Most understand that there is mutual respect and it is more pretentious than necessary.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 9 at 2014 10:11 PM

2014-05-09T22:11:33-04:00

Hell, yes, that 1LT earned his rank. We tended not to mention it if it didn't happen in casual situations so long as it was done when appropriate like when the brass was around.

Response by SPC Jessica Stewart made May 12 at 2014 1:08 AM

2014-05-12T01:08:24-04:00

Absolutely! If you are passing an officer who outranks you, you salute them. It is a sign of respect and it is part of a SM duty to show that respect in my opinion.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made May 12 at 2014 5:48 PM

2014-05-12T17:48:16-04:00

Depends on the branch I guess. When I was a PFC straight out of boot camp I was walking to a medical consult at Luke AFB. A Capt. was approaching me, snappy salute "Good Morning Sir"! His response, "Hey" and a wave.

Response by SGT David Dodge made May 12 at 2014 7:36 PM

2014-05-12T19:36:05-04:00

That you are even asking makes it sound like you are trying to dodge the responsibility. I am currently serving in the National Guard and saluting is not as common as in the active duty stations. Having served on active duty in both the Navy and the Army I have considered it an honor to render a proper salute to anyone who deserves it. It can seem quite silly at times such as a service school near a hospital where large numbers of enlisted are passing large numbers of officers.

Response by PO1 G. Leslie /Stiltner made May 15 at 2014 9:05 AM

2014-05-15T09:05:03-04:00

No mater what Jr is Jr and a 2LT should Salute a 1LT, would that not be the same as a LT Col not Saluting a COL they are both COL? NOT!!

Response by SFC James Kenn made May 18 at 2014 11:35 AM

2014-05-18T11:35:47-04:00

Yes, it shows respect at all levels.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2014 1:46 PM

2014-05-18T13:46:20-04:00

Damn right. Thats what you do

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2014 8:41 AM

2014-05-19T08:41:35-04:00

I do believe that in saying an LT is an LT is completely misguided because their pay grades say 0-1 and 0-2 which is not the same but in that comment that was made they are basically saying that a specialist shouldnt satand at parade rest for a corporal (both are E-4) or that a Master Seargent shouldnt stand at parade rest for First Seargent(both are E-8) or even a Seargent Major shouldnt stand at parade rest for a Command Seargent Major(both are E-9). Im just saying what message are pushing out to soldiers who are looking at 2LTs not saluting 1LTs but then the statement that the Army isnt like it used to be keeps coming up and we wonder why...

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2014 11:38 AM

2014-05-20T11:38:23-04:00

Proper customs and courtesies must be followed. Period. A 2LT should salute a 1LT. A SGT should stand at parade rest when speaking with a SSG. These actions/traditions are time honored and have more meaning than just respecting a superior. They will instill discipline in the force as a whole if properly executed and enforced.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made May 20 at 2014 8:53 PM

2014-05-20T20:53:35-04:00

I had fun with a new 2LT one day - another E-e and I were walking together and were passing by our platoon leader. He executed a right hand salute, and I executed a left hand salute. Our intrepid 2LT could not figure out which hand to use...he was a great officer and we all had a good laugh.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2014 7:30 PM

2014-05-21T19:30:28-04:00

This was an epic discussion topic within the Warrant Officer Corps a few years ago, the bottom line was this, a W1 will salute a CW2, CW3, C4, and a CW5.

A 2LT has always seems to have lot to prove in a short amount of time to many. In my experience thus far, Ive yet to see a rank get more abuse than a 2LT. The last thing I would want, is to paint an additional target on myself for not rendering the proper military customs and courtesy's. When in doubt its easier to apologize for saluting someone, than to apologize for not saluting someone.

Response by Sgt(P) Christopher Herod made May 23 at 2014 12:24 PM

2014-05-23T12:24:55-04:00

Yes. It's all about rendering courtesy and respect to those senior to you.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2014 2:15 PM

2014-05-23T14:15:54-04:00

I see that this post is seven months old, and I don't have time to scroll through all of the responses to check for redundancy. So here goes:
To answer the question of how I feel about this, I agree with you Sir.
I also have a question for you though, how many times did you correct those other 2LT's who did not salute a 1LT? I have heard it said that an officer is ready for the next rank when they are able to effectively put their peers in check. Are you stepping up and squaring away your peers? If so, I applaud you. If not, I have some words of mentorship. You are a Senior Leader in the United States Army, and as a Senior NCO, I expect you to make those corrections, just as you (especially as a PL or Cdr) would expect your NCO's to. Do the right thing and you will earn the respect of your seniors, peers, and subordinates alike!

Response by CPO William Gallagher made May 24 at 2014 10:31 AM

2014-05-24T10:31:43-04:00

If you expect NCO and other enlisted to respect the athourity then you need to. Lead by example not, Do as I say not as I do. Becuse then people start thinking sould Majors saluet Lt. Cor. or Lt Commanders saluet Commanders.

Response by LTC Patrick Walters made May 25 at 2014 8:14 PM

2014-05-25T20:14:14-04:00

Of course they should salute.

Response by MSgt Bob Hartnett made May 26 at 2014 12:07 PM

2014-05-26T12:07:59-04:00

I just wish to wish all my brothers and sisters no matter which branch a memorable Memorial Day. To all that have served regardless of rank i Salute you!

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother;

Response by LTC Curtis Anderson made May 27 at 2014 11:34 PM

2014-05-27T23:34:08-04:00

LT Rosa...looking over the responses...I believe you have gotten many outstanding viewpoints. As I have saw others say...bottom line...if you are a Gold bar and you see a silver bar...render the respect to your superior officer. And as you become a mentor to young officers in the future...counsel them on the proper customs and regulations of the service. We all need great mentors!

Response by SGT Alfred Cox made May 28 at 2014 12:39 AM

2014-05-28T00:39:39-04:00

Yes... order of rank..2Lt 1lt Capt...etc... sooo umm yes...

Response by MAJ Dennis Malone made May 28 at 2014 2:41 PM

2014-05-28T14:41:33-04:00

The difference between a second LT and a first LT is that the first LT HAS AT LEAST GOT HIS FEET WET IN THE UNIT. Even though, or because I was, a Sergeant before I got commissioned I still saluted the first LTs in my unit. However, it did not stop me from threatening to jack them in the jaw when they made very unprofessional decisions or conducted themselves unbecoming...hmmm...mayhaps they thought I was unbecoming at times.
Dennis

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2014 12:05 AM

2014-05-29T00:05:58-04:00

This is a thing? I'm honestly shocked. I mean, yeah they share the same title, but they represent different levels of experience, I don't think a 1LT and a 2LT are any more the same than a MAJ and a LTC... after all thy both have oak leafs don't they, so they are basically the same right!? I kid of course. Interesting thought though, one could argue I guess that a PFC is still a Private, a Senior Airmen is still an Airmen, a Gunnery Sergeant is still a Sergeant, and a Lt Col is a Colonel right! I think the grade should be the deciding factor. O-1's salute O-2's, just like E-5's are junior to E-6's.

Response by SSgt James Howerton made May 29 at 2014 4:13 PM

2014-05-29T16:13:58-04:00

I know when I was in the Corps there was no question about this and I doubt anything has changed. If you're junior in rank, you salute and you'd better hold that sucker until it's returned. If we were walking and were going to pass alongside an Officer, we had to say, "By your leave, Sir," and wait for the expected response, "Granted" before proceeding. When I was a young trooper, I was in a hurry one day getting back to work after chow. I was walking quickly and didn't really notice the Marine to my left as I passed him. I heard, "Marine!" and froze. Turning slowly, I was face to face with a full-by-God-bird Colonel. My right hand shot up with as much snap and pop as I could muster. I thought I was about to get my azz chewed but, much to my surprise, this Colonel took the time to ask me if I knew what I had done wrong, why the custom existed, etc. I apologized, thanked him and saluted him a second time before rushing back to work. To me, that is the crux of leadership and I learned a lot from that Colonel as a Private that served me well later as an NCO and Staff NCO. Aside from that we had a saying in the Corps, "When in doubt, salute!"

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2014 8:21 PM

2014-05-29T20:21:32-04:00

Rank among Lieutenants is like honor among whores.

Response by Sgt S.P. Woodke made May 30 at 2014 1:54 PM

2014-05-30T13:54:59-04:00

altho it is the chain of command...it does seem quite trivial...

Response by SPC Ralph S Scott made May 30 at 2014 3:55 PM

2014-05-30T15:55:48-04:00

I want to answer 1Lt's question, YES. 1SG Michael, is that better?

Response by LCpl Charles Ross made Jun 2 at 2014 2:43 AM

2014-06-02T02:43:17-04:00

A 1LT. is subordinate to a 2LT. A 1LT is what rank you get from O.C.S.. I recall that one is gold, and one silver. Under the U.C.M.J. the 1st is required to Salute all Senior Officers.

Response by Sgt S.P. Woodke made Jun 2 at 2014 10:02 AM

2014-06-02T10:02:46-04:00

as I articulated... the optimal word here was "SEEMS" quite trivial.

Thank You Major

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 2 at 2014 11:43 AM

2014-06-02T11:43:33-04:00

Once you quote an AR, AFI, or any other service reg there should not be a discussion. The answer is yes, respect the custom, and render a good salute.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2014 1:38 AM

2014-06-03T01:38:11-04:00

Yes the 2LT O-1 salutes the 1LT O-2. So will the Brigadier General not salute a General because they are both Generals?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2014 7:39 AM

2014-06-04T07:39:25-04:00

I would say that it is plain and simple...yes! I'm sure we have all heard the time old saying, "Respect the Rank, not the individual"

Response by SSgt Kevin Hopkins made Jun 4 at 2014 6:23 PM

2014-06-04T18:23:21-04:00

Absolutely that 1stLt out ranks the 2nd Lt

Response by SSgt Daniel Lamb made Jun 4 at 2014 8:17 PM

2014-06-04T20:17:09-04:00

There is an old Marine Corps legend about one of our more well known Officers of Marines, one General Lewis (Chesty) Puller, that goes something like this:

General Puller once found a Second Lieutenant making an enlisted man salute him 100 times for missing a salute. Puller told the Lieutenant that he was correct in making the enlisted man salute him, but reminded him that good officers return every salute they receive. Puller ordered the Lieutenant to return all 100 salutes to the enlisted man and even kept count for the Lieutenant.

Response by LTC Bo Worley made Jun 5 at 2014 12:02 AM

2014-06-05T00:02:44-04:00

No. Lieutenant have not and should not salute each other.
Respect among LTs is like honor among whores.

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2014 11:27 AM

2014-06-05T11:27:12-04:00

I will point something out that should be as plain as a sight picture when looking down range. We have a lack of discipline and leadership across the military. If we look back we would see many of the causes of where we are today stem from the military adopting more of modern day society's practices. We do not practice democracy we fight for it. The way we win wars and conflicts is based on a system that requires a way of life outside the main stream of society. If you do not believe every little chip away at our customs and courtesies impacts us I ask you this. At what point do you draw the line? Why should a Major salute a LTC? They are as close in rank as 2LT and 1LT. I will leave you with the following observation that I use to teach my kids, who are just joining the military, some as officers and some as enlisted. The movie U571 where the captain of the ship orders an enlisted sailor to go back into the engine compartment and secure an air leak that will cause everyone to die if not corrected. The captain and the enlisted sailor both understand this task will cost the sailor his life. His response was Aye sir I will do my best. Today, with the logic espoused here by some, the response we could get may be why can't private snuffy do this instead of me? Respect, duty, honor and integrity are all part of our customs and courtesies. A change to one has the butterfly effect.

Response by LCpl Roy Stevens made Jun 6 at 2014 3:04 PM

2014-06-06T15:04:01-04:00

The 2nd Lt being junior should render a salute to the senior officer that being a 1st Lt. That is basic military customs and courtesies.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2014 8:08 PM

2014-06-06T20:08:55-04:00

The funny thing about this entire thread to me is that these same people who continue to correlate the fact that LTs don't salute each other as a GROSS VIOLATION OF STANDARDS would probably be very upset if they were pulled over by an MP going 36 in 35, would try to get out the the ticket, and call the MP a douchebag if the MP ENFORCED THE STANDARD! Lol and for the record, yes that MP would definitely be a douchebag

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2014 10:08 PM

2014-06-07T22:08:23-04:00

After becoming a 1st Lt, I expected 2d Lts to salute me since I out ranked them. I made sure to salute 1st Lts when I was a 2d Lts since O-2s out rank O-1s, even if they were friends of mine. When I was in Afghanistan, a 2LT I worked with would not salute me for the belief of a LT was a LT, regardless of O-1 or O-2. My section NCO would get frustrated when she did not see the 2LT render a salute.

Response by Col Russell Anderson made Jun 8 at 2014 12:36 PM

2014-06-08T12:36:05-04:00

Salute! Shouldn't even be a question.

Response by SSG Jamil Spruill made Jun 9 at 2014 12:15 PM

2014-06-09T12:15:52-04:00

It says a lot about a soldier's professionalism if they do not render that respect even if it's a MAJ aproaching another MAJ then they should properly salute out of respect for one another's rank. If you have ever seen to General Officers in public they do it all the time, some don't but that doesn't mean it's not the proper thing to do

Response by PO3 David Deutsch made Jun 9 at 2014 4:15 PM

2014-06-09T16:15:58-04:00

I believe just out of respect for the uniform a salute is mandatory!!!!

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2014 9:27 PM

2014-06-09T21:27:04-04:00

Absolutely

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made Jun 11 at 2014 8:45 PM

2014-06-11T20:45:04-04:00

ALL DAY EVERY DAY

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jun 11 at 2014 9:10 PM

2014-06-11T21:10:51-04:00

OMG NOT AGAIN!! Seriously MSG? Ok lets see how long we can stretch this one out.

LT Rosa should hop in a DeLorean, set the WABAC flux capacitor to his commissioning date, hit warp speed and go back in time to meet his younger, 2LT self and impart him with the wisdom to not post the initial RP question.

Seriously though, LT, we have all enjoyed this question so much apparently well enough to spawn a sequel

Response by MSG Wade Huffman made Jun 11 at 2014 9:21 PM

2014-06-11T21:21:41-04:00

Can we just ask 1LT Rosa to salute himself one time and be done with the whole thing?! :) All questions will then be considered answered and we'll be done with the whole thing! LOL!! :)

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Jun 11 at 2014 9:28 PM

2014-06-11T21:28:04-04:00

No chance he makes 2LTs salute him. No way.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2014 9:32 PM

2014-06-11T21:32:29-04:00

This chart should answer the question as to who out ranks who and who should be saluting who... that is all.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2014 9:38 PM

2014-06-11T21:38:09-04:00

I'll stick with my original response!

Response by 1SG David Niles made Jun 11 at 2014 9:47 PM

2014-06-11T21:47:58-04:00

demands

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2014 10:08 PM

2014-06-11T22:08:13-04:00

Just so you know I haven't been pinned yet. I will be pinned in a couple of days and I am heading down to Fort Stewart for a couple of weeks. I will vote then.

Response by MSG(P) Michael Warrick made Jun 11 at 2014 10:28 PM

2014-06-11T22:28:23-04:00

End the thread please !!

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2014 10:40 PM

2014-06-11T22:40:04-04:00

Is this a question that will never die again?

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2014 11:05 PM

2014-06-11T23:05:40-04:00

If I hear another 2LT saluting 1LT question, I'm gonna bang my head against keyboayrhfudjejfjdk fjdugfc

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2014 12:00 AM

2014-06-12T00:00:43-04:00

Holy Cow! This thread is still in existence or did it get re-created? OMG....somebody shoot this thread please...enough is enough......

WILL SOMEONE IN THE ADMIN CIRCLE JUST SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN?

Response by SSG Darin McNeely made Jun 12 at 2014 1:07 AM

2014-06-12T01:07:06-04:00

Does a light colonel salute a full bird? Does an E-7 stand at parade rest when addressing an E-8? It depends on the situation sometimes,how well you know them and what you are talking to them about or who is with you or who is there to see

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Jun 12 at 2014 1:15 AM

2014-06-12T01:15:22-04:00

A 2LT should have wooden dowels strapped to his/her legs and back to keep them stiff and standing at attention and they should crazy glue their right hand to their eyebrow in salute until they are pinned 1LT. SMH

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Jun 12 at 2014 6:45 AM

2014-06-12T06:45:31-04:00

I don't care really, but I'm sure he makes other LT's sake him.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2014 8:39 AM

2014-06-12T08:39:18-04:00

He is greeted with puzzled looks and "WHAT!?!?" does this mean I have to stand at attention for him too?

Response by CPT R. Boyd Lindsay made Jun 12 at 2014 9:38 AM

2014-06-12T09:38:44-04:00

I've heard both sides of this question. However, it is Army culture for LT's NOT to salute one another. The bottom line is that they are both lieutenants. Besides, 1LT isn't even a real promotion. As my CG told me when I promoted to CPT, "welcome to the officer corp". He then explained that CPT was the first real rank in the officer corp. So, LTs, get over it. Do your time. Those 2LTs are going to be CPTs with you in a few years.

Response by CW3 Ian Mains made Jun 12 at 2014 12:10 PM

2014-06-12T12:10:12-04:00

I regret ever having responded to this post in the first place.

Response by 1SG Ariel Rosario made Jun 14 at 2014 12:24 PM

2014-06-14T12:24:04-04:00

This conversation started 7 months ago by then 2LT Rosa, now here he is today getting his 1LT pinned by his Company Commander.....Congrats LT Rosa!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2014 8:26 AM

2014-06-17T08:26:12-04:00

I work in a hospital environment where enlisted soldiers work very closely with officers due to the nature of our job. I have seen soldier's start to lose their military etiquette with officers which result in them often not saluting passing officers. Some of our doctors don't really care but they should as it teaches the young soldiers bad habits that can adversely effect them in other units. A 2LT should absolutely salute a 1LT. You are to salute anyone who is in a rank above you. I stand at parade rest for SSG even though we are both sergeants because it is a matter of respect.

Response by TSgt Chuck Boots made Jun 17 at 2014 12:36 PM

2014-06-17T12:36:38-04:00

I was always taught that anyone of lower rank would salute the higher rank. Enlisted - Officer and Officer to Officer. So yes you should be saluting.

Response by CWO2 B. Sean Fairburn made Jun 17 at 2014 3:26 PM

2014-06-17T15:26:47-04:00

In my Experience as a CWO there are 2 unwritten rules:
1) Once in the morning and once in the evening
2) single bars do not salute single bars unless they are directly your superior.

When troops are around refer to the regs.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2014 5:07 PM

2014-06-17T17:07:47-04:00

It is the right thing to do. Similar to standing at parade rest for an NCO that is senior to you. Personally, I stand at parade rest for a SSG that is my PLT SGT, until they say i don't have to. It's proper respect for the position and i definately stand at parade rest for any NCO SFC or above. So, yes. A 2LT should salute a 1LT.

Response by LTC Thomas Cunningham made Jun 18 at 2014 11:55 AM

2014-06-18T11:55:47-04:00

Yes

Response by SFC Michael W. made Jun 22 at 2014 11:32 PM

2014-06-22T23:32:00-04:00

Yes they should salute, the Regs does not say "unless you're on a first name basis" like "Bob" or "Jim".

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2014 1:07 PM

2014-06-24T13:07:54-04:00

My personal opinion is that the salute should be earned. As in company grade officers and senior NCOs, they've all been in long enough to truly earn the respect of all enlisted and commissioned members. I find it odd seeing an E8 saluting a newly commissioned officer...that's not to say I don't follow the regs, just an opinion

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2014 10:12 AM

2014-06-26T10:12:43-04:00

BLUF: Yes, if you are out ranked, you render the officer a salute. Now...if you're all PLs together, or in the same staff section, the LT mafia should kick in, and you all should be on good terms. Just remember, whenever you are not in your own home (unit, base) you should play by the regs and go from there.

Response by SGT Paul Oetinger made Jun 29 at 2014 5:42 PM

2014-06-29T17:42:57-04:00

Absolutely! A salute is to be rendered by all subordinate ranking officers as well as all enlisted to all officers. I took great pride in informing all officers that my salute was a respect to their rank and that it required a salute in return.

Response by LCpl Jaime Diaz made Jun 30 at 2014 5:25 AM

2014-06-30T05:25:45-04:00

I'm not sure how it works in the army or other branches. In the Marines, every officer salutes and calls sir/ma'am to any other officer that is above him/her.

Response by SPC Phillip Ludlow made Jul 1 at 2014 4:13 PM

2014-07-01T16:13:44-04:00

ahem...

Response by SMSgt Tony Rita made Jul 4 at 2014 7:56 PM

2014-07-04T19:56:53-04:00

Adorable question... I have nothing for this one...

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 4 at 2014 8:04 PM

2014-07-04T20:04:52-04:00

It bothers me that a question like this would ever arise. The military is built off of the need to function as one "well oiled" unit. We "all" were brought up in our services to honor and respect the traditions of our services and the US military, as a whole. The salute is rendered from the enlisted to the officer and all junior officers "should be" expected to render to his/her senior officer.

One legend has it that today’s military salute descended from the medieval knight's gesture of raising his visor to reveal his identity as a courtesy on the approach of a superior. From earliest times and in many distant armies throughout history, the right hand (or "weapon hand") has been raised as a greeting of friendship. The idea may have been to show that you weren't ready to use a rock or other weapon. The following explanation of the origin of the hand salute is perhaps closest to the truth: It was a long-established military custom for juniors to remove their headgear in the presence of superiors. In the British Army as late as the American Revolution a soldier saluted bv removing his hat. But with the advent of more cumbersome headgear in the 18th and 19th centuries, the act of removing one’s hat was gradually converted into the simpler gesture of grasping the visor, and issuing a courteous salutation. From there it finally became conventionalized into something resembling our modern hand salute. While, some historians believe it began in late Roman times when assassinations were common. A citizen who wanted to see a public official had to approach with his right hand raised to show that he did not hold a weapon.

Military personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled (by grade) to a salute except when it is inappropriate or impractical (in public conveyances such as planes and buses, in public places such as inside theaters, or when driving a vehicle).

Persons Entitled to a Salute

The President of the United States (Commander-in-Chief)
Commissioned Officers and Warrant Officers
Any Medal of Honor Recipient
Officers of Friendly Foreign Countries

A salute is also rendered:

When the United States National Anthem, "To the Color," "Hail to the Chief," or foreign national anthems are played.
To uncased National Color outdoors.
On ceremonial occasions (such as Change of Command, and Military Parades).
At reveille and retreat ceremonies, during the raising or lowering of the flag.
During the sounding of honors.
When the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. flag is being recited outdoors.
When turning over control of formations.
When rendering reports.

Like I indicated, we are a military long steeped in our traditions, lets not change it for something that need not be.

(And yes, I copied and pasted)

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Jul 7 at 2014 5:46 AM

2014-07-07T05:46:40-04:00

Is a 2nd Lieutenant really an officer....Discuss :-)

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Jul 7 at 2014 5:48 AM

2014-07-07T05:48:28-04:00

The real question is...Is a 2nd Lieutenant really an Officer? Discuss :-)

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 7 at 2014 5:24 PM

2014-07-07T17:24:00-04:00

I've been told on frequent occasions by some 1LTs to not salute them because "We are both Lts". Makes no sense to me...an O2 is senior to a O1, so why wouldn't I salute them or render respect to them? The regulation is the regulation...not to mention it is common sense to show proper respect to someone who is senior to you. I am not sure where the idea of not saluting a senior LT came from, but it makes no sense to me. You can't be wrong showing respect, but you can be wrong by not showing respect. Too easy.

Response by COL Randall C. made Jul 7 at 2014 6:17 PM

2014-07-07T18:17:06-04:00

Since I'm one of the few that hasn't posted on this topic yet, I figure it's time to get in line with the group (sorry for keeping the thread alive SFC Wayman)

I always understood it to be "rank among lieutenants is like virtue among ....."

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 7 at 2014 9:54 PM

2014-07-07T21:54:22-04:00

I actually witnessed this during AT this summer. A cadet who had been with our unit for a while received her commission in May. She approached one of our PLs and saluted, and he told her not to do that because they were both LTs. She was unsure of that advice, and after he left I said it is better to be told not to do it than to be dressed down for not saluting. The PL was a prior NCO, so I thought that might have had something to do with his thoughts on the matter.

Response by SFC James Barnes made Jul 8 at 2014 12:02 PM

2014-07-08T12:02:14-04:00

Honestly why is this a question the regulations say to salute and as leaders we enforce the standards. It's not if you should or shouldn't it's will I enforce the standard. I personally still salute even when the officer says it isn't necessary because it is what is called for irregardless of my personal feeling.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 9 at 2014 10:02 PM

2014-07-09T22:02:18-04:00

This is how you have two LTs with the same rank salute another.

AR 600-20
1–5. Hand salutes and salutes with arms
a. For instructions on executing the hand salute, see FM 3–21.5, paragraph 4–4.
b. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute.
Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of
the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps
of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service
entitled to the salute.
c. The junior person shall salute first. Accompanying the rendering of the hand salute with an appropriate greeting
such as, "Good Morning, Sir" or "Good Morning, Ma’am" is encouraged. Personnel will not salute indoors except
when reporting to a superior officer

By reg the 2LT is junior to the 1LT. In theory he has to salute. If you go by the regs one step further you can have two officers in the same rank salute another.

In AR 600-20
2–7. Designation of junior in the same grade to command
The DCS, G–1 is responsible for policy on the designation of junior in the same grade to command.
a. When two or more commissioned officers of the same grade, both of whom are eligible to command, are
assigned to duty in the same command or organization, the President may assign the command of forces without regard
to seniority by DOR.
b. General officers are authorized to announce by direction of the President, the designation of one of several
officers of the same grade within a command under their jurisdiction as a commander thereof.
(1) This refers to general officers commanding ACOMs, ASCCs, or DRUs, armies, corps, installations, divisions,
separate brigades, regional support commands (RSCs), General Officer Commands (GOCOMs), and heads of DA staff
agencies. This may be done without regard to relative seniority. (See paras 2–5 and 2–8 for policy on general officers.)
When an officer who is junior by DOR is designated to command, a memorandum will be used to announce the
appointment and will contain the information shown in figure 2–2.

In this case the command may appoint a 1LT to be the CO when there are several 1LTs in the company. This appointment makes the other 1LTs junior to him and by the reg they would be requires to salute.

Response by SSG James Boyd made Jul 10 at 2014 9:04 AM

2014-07-10T09:04:08-04:00

Regardless of branch of service, it is in the UCMJ and branch specific reg that junior ranking officers salute the superior officer. It is utterly disrespectful not to. Maybe the military should change the title of 2LT like the Navy. Call them Left-tenants or Ensigns or something that sound less commanding. Human nature, people see the number 2 as being the bigger number so why not. Maybe even change the structure or look of the 2LT bar. Give the 1LT bar a make over. The 2LTs need to calm down and try not to strut their stuff, everyone in the US Military knows that a 2LT is lower than a 1LT and is respected accordingly. Just the E-7s realize as the CPTs that the 2LT is new and may not know as much.

Response by SSG Andre' McMullen made Jul 10 at 2014 11:55 AM

2014-07-10T11:55:21-04:00

Yes they should

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2014 1:08 AM

2014-07-14T01:08:44-04:00

yes, when I was a 2LT the 1LT told us not to, we continued that tradition though (in the company area aka our domain). However, elsewhere we showed the respect for the rank to eliminate others perception that we were not disciplined.

Response by TSgt William Bennett made Jul 14 at 2014 11:48 AM

2014-07-14T11:48:28-04:00

Yes.

Response by SFC Michael Sowinski made Jul 16 at 2014 12:10 PM

2014-07-16T12:10:51-04:00

Yes A second LT is lower rank to a 1st LT so yes 2nd LT have to salute 1 st LT as per militarey customs and the UCMJ

Response by Sgt David K Wedge made Jul 16 at 2014 12:37 PM

2014-07-16T12:37:29-04:00

2nd should salute 1st
No question

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2014 3:00 AM

2014-07-17T03:00:07-04:00

Err on the side of caution, salute your superior 1t Lt until you are instructed not to by that 1t Lt.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2014 4:26 PM

2014-07-17T16:26:28-04:00

Well, let me ask you this 1LT. Should a 1LT salute a CPT? Should a CPT salute a MAJ? so on and so on. YES a lower ranking officer should salute a higher rank. Asalute is a sign of respect for the rank.

Response by CPO Scott Boyle made Jul 18 at 2014 2:21 PM

2014-07-18T14:21:07-04:00

As a Navy Chief, I would have loved to see an Ensign not salute a LT j.g. I would have thoroughly enjoyed the Chief to Ensign training that would have followed. That said, I never saw it because it would be ridiculous. There is a reason why the colors are different, even though the bars are the same size. Is this even an issue in the Army?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2014 12:21 PM

2014-07-19T12:21:07-04:00

Most definitely; however, it shouldn't go to the 1LTs head. They will be peers in just a few years ;) As CPT's, MAJ's and so on...its a military bearing issue. Not a power and subordinate issue. I remember in most of the schools I have been in an emphasis on leaders are good followers too ;) Understand your operational environment and be humble...you expect your CW5 to salute a 2LT; if that shoe fits, no issues right ;)

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 11:16 AM

2014-07-21T11:16:15-04:00

This is a funny question. My battalion S3/XO used to always say, you are all Lieutenants, not one of you is better than the other because you all fail when one of you fails. Work together and you will excel.

Basically if a 1LT tries to hold seniority over a 2LT based on rank it can cause problems in getting stuff done.

That being said, a salute is a sign of respect, so if a 2LT salutes a 1LT, by regulation and intent he's not wrong. I just wouldn't have ever expected it or felt as though it was deserved when I was a 1LT.

I think it goes without saying, anytime someone has to use their rank to justify themselves, they are wrong. Through good leadership you should be able to influence people. Respect which is earned is better than respect tied to rank. 2LTs usually listen to and take direction from 1LTs because that 1LT actually knows whats going on. A young 2LT in our battery always listened to the 1LT XO because of respect and he was also situationally aware of his position.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 1:53 PM

2014-07-21T13:53:28-04:00

While at Bragg today I was saluted by a 2LT and the world did not explode. Right after that another 2LT raised his hand and was about to salute but stopped half way. He looked pretty confused. I am sure he was trying to think about what he read on the post formally known as "the post"

Response by Capt Gardea Christian made Jul 21 at 2014 2:01 PM

2014-07-21T14:01:40-04:00

Should (opinion) a second lieutenant salute a first lieutenant? No
Must (regulation) a second lieutenant salute a first lieutenant? Yes

Response by PFC Stephens Clark made Jul 21 at 2014 7:29 PM

2014-07-21T19:29:10-04:00

i totally agree,Rank is a privilege, and an Honor. we honor those above our ranks with Salutes , or Parade Rest, for a reason.

Response by SSG Jim Handy made Jul 23 at 2014 12:04 PM

2014-07-23T12:04:12-04:00

We were all taught the regulations and the basic rules for how to behave properly, and that is fine to get us started. However, as we progress through our careers we learn that different situations, units, and jobs dictate different protocols and behavior. I once worked on a project team that consisted of a Col., a LTC., 2 Majors, a Capt. , 2 LT's , a MSG, a SFC, and 2 SSG's. When we were in our office you didn't hear anyone calling anyone by their rank or a lot of sirs and you didn't see anyone standing at parade rest or attention when they spoke to someone of a higher rank. You actually heard a lot of first names being used. We could have never accomplished our jobs if we had worked in a "STRICT" military manner. There are jobs like that all through the military and you just have to adjust to the situation, and be able to readjust in a heartbeat when you walk into another situation, which we did on a routine basis. The bottom line is you have to have the common sense to understand what was appropriate when. Not every unit in the military has a combat mission and needs to function in that manner.

Response by PO2 Zechariah Allison made Jul 24 at 2014 11:43 AM

2014-07-24T11:43:37-04:00

a Salute surrendered is a Salute returned. that is all that matters. It's Mutual respect.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2014 6:35 PM

2014-07-24T18:35:59-04:00

The entire time I've been in and affiliated with the army (my whole life, parents were and are officers), the rule I've been taught is "a lieutenant is a lieutenant is a lieutenant" and lieutenants do not salute one another. The only time a 2LT should be saluting a 1LT is for ceremonies. There's a problem with the whole situation because many officers spend so much time at schools following BOLC that they are sometimes immediately promoted to 1LT when they get to their units and have zero experience outside of schools. The other problem is that 2nd lieutenants and 1st lieutenants can and do often have the same jobs as one another. E.g. in field artillery, if a 1LT isn't up to snuff, a 2LT can be made to be the battery xo while the 1LT is made to be the support platoon leader or Fires PL.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2014 11:53 AM

2014-07-25T11:53:05-04:00

This is seriously a discussion? Is it that hard to just give a quick salute? If you don't like the customs and courtesies then you should probally have thought about joining the military a little bit harder.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2014 2:23 AM

2014-07-27T02:23:11-04:00

Should an Officer Cadet salute a 2LT?

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2014 9:28 AM

2014-07-28T09:28:43-04:00

Junior Officers salute Senior ones, that's it. Meaning that an O-1 (regardless of service) should be saluting any officer who is superior to him, including other O-1's with 1 day more TIG. That is a very strict interpretation of the reg and not all units apply it this way, but it is the way it "should" work. I have seen this in action when new 2LT's came into MP Companies. Basically, when outdoors and two service members pass each other and at least one is an officer, there should be a salute exchange, with the junior of the two initiating it.

Response by SPC Richard White made Jul 31 at 2014 4:47 AM

2014-07-31T04:47:33-04:00

I have been in the presence of 2LTs when they meet 1st LTS and they don't always render salutes but etiquette says you always salute a senior officer but you bet if a Major or higher walks in you bet a salute is given unless they are in the field.

Response by SPC Kyle Williams made Jul 31 at 2014 4:03 PM

2014-07-31T16:03:12-04:00

A 1LT once told me that LT's (first or second) dont usually salute each other because its comparable to a PVT, PV2, or a PFC standing at parade rest for each other. Technically there suppose to but its hardly ever enforced.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Jul 31 at 2014 7:23 PM

2014-07-31T19:23:11-04:00

Funny, I was an Instructor at Fort Huachuca, AZ, I was walking in the quad, as an SFC and noticed a WOC with his hat on, which was not authorized in the quad. I tried to be discreet and motioned to him that he needed to remove his cover...He became irate and came to me screaming, "Do you know who I am???" Yes, and you need to remove your hat. His response, I"I am not an animal, you do not motion to me to remove my hat! I said, OK, take off your hat!! He said, I am an officer, you will respect my position..I said, You are a WOC, and I think, until you graduate, I out rank you! He got irate, and went to the Colonel..The Colonel, who I played basketball with on the over 30 league, was amused..The point, If you deserve respect, you will receive it, otherwise!!!1

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2014 12:33 AM

2014-08-01T00:33:01-04:00

No. Unless it's a 1LT serving as Company Commander. I feel it's like an E2 standing at parade rest for an E3. It's silly.

I saluted a 1LT and called him Sir once right after I commissioned. He was my company XO and I had been a cadet in the unit. He pulled me aside and told me the proper greeting between lieutenants is, "Sup."

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2014 11:36 AM

2014-08-02T11:36:13-04:00

Bottom line here is that if one soldier outranks the other, they are NOT peers. If an officer outranks another officer of whatever rank, the salute is required.

Yes, Lieutenants not saluting each other is an unwritten custom of the service, but arguing that the regulation supports it because you as a commander need your lieutenants to work as peers is just spinning your own version of the reg. The reg is clear.

Either you outrank someone, you have the same rank, or they outrank you.

I'm not getting into the issue of date of rank because we don't wear date of rank on our uniforms, and there's not a good way to tell anyway.

On top of that, the idea that you need your lieutenants to work together as peers as a more senior commander is undercut by allowing lieutenants who don't even work together to subscribe to this custom. If 2LT Walker (*shudder*) is TDY from Fort Belvoir to Fort Bragg, and runs into 1LT Ballinger outside the PX during lunch (going to the food court) when they don't know each other already...how is the unwritten custom facilitating them working together as peers? Where's the mentorship?? What if 1LT Ballinger is ADA and 2LT Walker is Signal? When would they be working together? It doesn't even make sense.

You just need to be intellectually honest and admit that this is one unwritten custom of the service that goes against regulations, but it's kept on because of tradition....I would say sort of like Warrant Officers not saluting each other, but I'm currently at my WOAC at Ft. Gordon GA, and they've impressed upon us that we *will* salute more senior Warrants, and we *will* accept and return salutes from the WO1s here for WOBC. So basically TRADOC is getting rid of that tradition already.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Aug 4 at 2014 1:52 PM

2014-08-04T13:52:01-04:00

It...Is...STILL...ALIVE!!!!!!!

Response by MSG Jaime Barzana made Aug 6 at 2014 7:58 PM

2014-08-06T19:58:48-04:00

All day long!!!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2014 8:38 PM

2014-08-21T20:38:01-04:00

Has anyone realized that LTC Shewbert got 214 likes on a response. That has to be a record.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Aug 21 at 2014 10:34 PM

2014-08-21T22:34:47-04:00

ALL OFFICERS LOOK HERE! I say 2LT SHOULD NOT salute 1LT's. (NOW UP VOTE ME 10,000 times)

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2014 10:40 PM

2014-08-21T22:40:14-04:00

I got the answer everyone, so the answer is no a 2nd Lieutenant doesn't have to salute a 1st Lieutenant HOWEVER, you do have to give each other an obligatory head nod. Kinda to let each other know that you're cool with each other and "in the club" so to speak. True story. I was at ECT for the past 2 weeks and every single 1st LT said I didn't have to salute them but we did do the head nod thing, one of them would even give me a high five as I walked past him, don't think that's part of the rule but the head nod thing sure is.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Aug 22 at 2014 8:04 AM

2014-08-22T08:04:44-04:00

I nominate this as the post theme song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jqropTLg_4

Die Another Day - Madonna

Response by 1SG Mark Colomb made Aug 22 at 2014 12:12 PM

2014-08-22T12:12:16-04:00

Of course. This is the foundation of our military. If we allow this, what recognition of respect will fall out?

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Aug 24 at 2014 4:00 AM

2014-08-24T04:00:14-04:00

WOW, anytime a post gets 579 responces, its a really good question.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2014 1:43 PM

2014-08-26T13:43:22-04:00

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member I am not sure why there was a down vote. Maybe you can elaborate.

Response by SFC Jonathan Riley made Aug 28 at 2014 1:46 PM

2014-08-28T13:46:04-04:00

See this is the thing that is breaking the discipline in the military. I do believe that a 2LT should salute a 1LT , it is a time honored recognition just like LTC Shewbert said and without disicipline we would just be a mob or a group of people. Being a former DS I firmly believe that disicipline is the root to a well functioning unit and if there is no disicipline the unit will breakdown

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Aug 29 at 2014 5:34 AM

2014-08-29T05:34:21-04:00

Ok, I finally have the difinitive answer. They should do a flying chest bump and initiate some kind of specialty "LT only" handshake like the frat boys have. Ofcourse the handshake will have to be branch specific and must NEVER be shown to rival LT's of other branches. Any LT caught sharing the handshake will be demoted and severely beaten.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2014 1:50 AM

2014-09-10T01:50:53-04:00

My attitude was that at some point the 1Lt would be a Captain and I would still be a Lt and that point there would be the distinct difference that the other guy is no longer the peer in the "LT mafia." I just always assumed I would rather be told not to when I did it versus getting the riot act if I failed to not salute the one 1Lt that would take exception to the "no rank among LT's ," rule.

On the other hand I never expected to be saluted by a 2nd when I was a 1st.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2014 6:25 PM

2014-09-10T18:25:50-04:00

Haven't seen this post trending in a while. Let me create some waves just for kicks ;-)

Response by SGT Richard H. made Sep 10 at 2014 9:58 PM

2014-09-10T21:58:56-04:00

I have to say: My eyes roll every time this thread comes back to the top.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2014 10:08 PM

2014-09-10T22:08:25-04:00

I believe that the 2lt should have enough integrity and respect to render a salute to any superior officer regardless of rank.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 15 at 2014 2:47 PM

2014-09-15T14:47:23-04:00

No. Lieutenants are lieutenants. They need to work together regardless of how long they've been lieutenants as peers. That is how they learn from each other. If you allow 1LTs to hold rank over 2LTs, it promotes elitism. Have you ever seen a 1LT that is a dick, and isn't supported at all whatsoever by his Soldiers? Why would you want him bossing around a 2LT who is developing and maturing.

Response by SrA Ben Barton made Sep 21 at 2014 12:32 AM

2014-09-21T00:32:04-04:00

It's a mark of respect, and a long-standing military tradition that dates back to medieval times. So of course! Who do you salute? Officers. What if you are an officer? If they are a higher rank/grade than you, then you salute first. Would you ask the same question about Maj to LtC? Or LtC to Col? Of course not. How is this even a question?!

On the other hand, if the two are good friends and aren't in front of people, then nah... That's really the only exception. That said, remember what Patton said about parades, "You are always on parade."

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Sep 22 at 2014 9:51 PM

2014-09-22T21:51:03-04:00

Response by CW3 Ian Mains made Sep 23 at 2014 2:46 PM

2014-09-23T14:46:52-04:00

1LT Rosa will be a CPT before this thread dies. It's been going for nearly a year now.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2014 9:09 AM

2014-09-24T09:09:42-04:00

In regards to your "B" statement proposal - why restrict it to only Army personnel in uniform? Why not other branches in uniform? Leaving it as such would indicate that an Army O1 would be required to salute a Navy 03 (as an example), but a Navy O1 would not be required to salute an Army O3.

Additionally, "... and enlisted personnel...", what does that mean? Does that mean that an E3 would have to salute an E4, like the KATUSA's and ROK Army?

Please clarify.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2014 11:00 AM

2014-09-24T11:00:40-04:00

Rank among lieutenants is like virtue among whores.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 27 at 2014 10:22 PM

2014-09-27T22:22:21-04:00

I have never seen a 2LT salute a 1LT before.

Response by SSG John Erny made Sep 29 at 2014 5:39 PM

2014-09-29T17:39:57-04:00

Our LT was around us a lot in the 82nd and after the first salute he would say I will be in the Area do not salute me again, I do not want my arm to fall off. I guess my point is do not over do it, yet follow the regs.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2014 9:00 PM

2014-10-02T21:00:59-04:00

Haven't seen too many new comments on this post lately. Hope this comment helps ;-)

Response by SSG Pete Fleming made Oct 2 at 2014 11:33 PM

2014-10-02T23:33:35-04:00

Navy does...

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Oct 3 at 2014 11:55 AM

2014-10-03T11:55:26-04:00

I suppose that LTs would ask this question. Hell, I've known a few that might even quibble over date of rank. I suppose it's the novelty of sudden authority that throws them into such a dither. Bottom line is that yes, of course, 2LT salutes 1LT.

On a more humorous note, I was in OCS before I ever saw my first warrant officer and hesitated in saluting. I should have observed the common wisdom: When in doubt, salute. The poor man simply cried, "My Gawd, don't they teach you bastards anything?" and stalked away.

Obviously, they didn't...

On another humorous note, let me tell you how we tormented the XO of our Basic Training Company, a newly minted 2LT just out of OCS. We posted lookouts every morning and then lined up to salute him as he made his way to the orderly room. We spaced ourselves just far enough apart that he had to return our salutes individually. Then we raced around the company to get back in line and salute him again. The poor guy took to parking far from the company area and tried to sneak in, but we always caught him. Actually, I have to thank him for helping me survive OCS. Every time I felt like quitting, I thought of him and said to myself, "If LT A____ could do it, so can I."

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2014 1:35 PM

2014-10-03T13:35:19-04:00

By regulation the only correct answer is "yes". There is no exception listed for the 1LT/2LT relationship. That said, tradition says no.

AR 600-25 Para 1–5.

Hand salutes and salutes with arms
a. For instructions on executing the hand salute, see FM 3–21.5, paragraph 4–4.
b. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service entitled to the salute.
c. The junior person shall salute first. Accompanying the rendering of the hand salute with an appropriate greeting such as, "Good Morning, Sir" or "Good Morning, Ma’am" is encouraged. Personnel will not salute indoors except when reporting to a superior officer.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Oct 4 at 2014 11:35 AM

2014-10-04T11:35:50-04:00

How about a twist? We all have a choice of addressing our officers by their name and rank, rank, or sir? Since sir is a sign of respect, how do you all feel when the officer is addressed by their rank all the time, as opposed to sir?

Response by SGT Richard H. made Oct 4 at 2014 3:26 PM

2014-10-04T15:26:49-04:00

I have no input (except the eye roll that you can't see). I'm simply responding to make this an even 600 responses.

Response by SSG Stephen Arnold made Oct 4 at 2014 8:43 PM

2014-10-04T20:43:37-04:00

I am not certain that there is a question, sir. *initiates salute*

Response by GySgt William Hardy made Oct 5 at 2014 9:10 AM

2014-10-05T09:10:11-04:00

AR 600-25.
1–5. Hand salutes and salutes with arms (selected paragraphs only)

b. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps
of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service entitled to the salute.
c. The junior person shall salute first. Accompanying the rendering of the hand salute with an appropriate greeting such as, "Good Morning, Sir" or "Good Morning, Ma’am" is encouraged. Personnel will not salute indoors except when reporting to a superior officer.
g. Civilian personnel, to include civilian guards, are not required to render the hand salute to military personnel or other civilian personnel.

AR 600–25 • 24 September 2004 1h. Military personnel under arms will render the salute prescribed for the weapon with which they are armed, whether or not that weapon ordinarily is prescribed as part of their equipment.

i. Salutes are not required to be rendered or returned when the senior or subordinate, or both are—
(1) In civilian attire.
(2) Engaged in routine work if the salute would interfere.
(3) Carrying articles with both hands so occupied as to make saluting impracticable.
(4) Working as a member of a detail, or engaged in sports or social functions where saluting would present a safety hazard.
(5) In public places such as theaters, churches, and in public conveyances.
(6) In the ranks of a formation.

and from Military Customs and Courtesies:

Signs of Honor and Respect
Every branch of the armed services has a variety of characteristic customs established
long ago and still in use today. Army customs and courtesies lend color, distinction, and
ceremony to your daily life as a Soldier.
Courtesies are the outward signs of your respect for your nation, your flag, your
comrades, and our country’s fallen heroes. They engender mutual respect, good manners,
politeness, and discipline.
Customs include such things as responding to a senior officer’s presence, recognizing
the officer’s rank or position of honor, correctly using military titles, wearing headgear,
saluting appropriately, reporting correctly, and honoring national and Army symbols
and music.

No where can I locate any document that states that Lieutenants do or do not salute one another in the Army. As you will notice, the word superior is used...thus the heart of the difference of opinion on this question.

I did find numerous "opinions" that it is a long standing tradition. In days of old, it was common for lower ranks to have command positions and thus received salutes simply because of their "job title" and therefore it is not a good example of rendering salutes.

I found "zero" references that there will be salutes exchanged except for the use of the word "superior". The problem here is that the Army has not done a good job of documenting history and tradition on this topic. It should be in print somewhere, but it is not. Vague areas such as this topic should be put to rest with a simple edit to AR 600-25.

Major Ballinger, has been the major defender of this tradition, and from my research over the past couple of months, seems to be the closest to correct answer...no salutes between Lieutenants in the Army.

I am convinced that there is a tradition out there, but the big wigs in DC who write these policies and regulations should include this tradition the next time an update is printed so this topic has a definitive answer to the question.

My suggestion would be: AR 600-25 sub paragraph b...

b. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps
of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service entitled to the salute. Saluting between Lieutenants is not required.

Response by COL Eric Holmes made Oct 5 at 2014 10:36 AM

2014-10-05T10:36:17-04:00

Yes, and do so proudly.

Response by SFC Vernon McNabb made Oct 6 at 2014 11:29 PM

2014-10-06T23:29:17-04:00

Only if he/she outranks him/her, Sir!

Response by 1SG Pete Marcell made Oct 8 at 2014 4:05 PM

2014-10-08T16:05:31-04:00

Well of course they should, but we all know that a Sergeant Major doesn't salute an LT, correct? Good, I'm glad we are all clear on this subject now. Carry on...

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Oct 10 at 2014 9:54 PM

2014-10-10T21:54:54-04:00

I would say it would depend on the service. In the Corps the answer would be no.

Response by LCpl Jaime Diaz made Oct 16 at 2014 11:45 AM

2014-10-16T11:45:21-04:00

I can not believe this is still going on lol. It is a very simple concept. Here it is! You ready!? All enlisted from E1 to Sgt Maj of etc Salute EVERY commisioned officer from O1 to any 4/5 star. Every officer salutes a higher ranking officer. You asking if a 2nd lt should salute a 1st lt because they are both Lt's is the same as asking if a Major should salute a Lt. Cl. because they both have oaks leaves or if a Lt. Cl. should salute a full bird because they are both (colonels) or if a 1 star should salute a 2 3 4 5 star. Please end this topic. There is only 1 answer!!!

Response by SSG Maurice P. made Oct 18 at 2014 7:15 AM

2014-10-18T07:15:52-04:00

i feel that a 2nd lieutenant ought to salute a 1st lieutenant...an ensign in the navy salutes a ltjg!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2014 12:02 AM

2014-11-10T00:02:22-05:00

I would like to thank all of you. This post has came so far and has also led to be getting an award. I don't know what I would have done without all of your contributions. Actually there really isn't an answer yet. So does a 2LT salute a 1LT?

Response by MAJ Dennis Malone made Nov 10 at 2014 9:12 PM

2014-11-10T21:12:49-05:00

I know my original response was a bit nebulous...but, yes...knucklehead...a 1LT does outrank a 2LT and anyone that tells you different prolly took way too many prescribed meds as a young adult. Does that mean that a 1LT should act holier than all, nope! What's the difference between a Private First Class in the Army and a 1LT? The Private First Class has been promoted more!

Response by SGT Andrew Boffen made Nov 10 at 2014 11:49 PM

2014-11-10T23:49:09-05:00

That would be the same as a cpt not saluting a major. Its militar custom and its in the regs. Honestly why is this even a question?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2014 1:36 AM

2014-12-07T01:36:45-05:00

No S-, there I was....walking down the sidewalk at Camp Lemonnier, when who should approach but a Navy Ensign......and he saluted me!

Ok, I know that he is correct by regulation and doing the right thing,etc....but I could not help but think of this thread, the parodies, etc and start laughing. It definitely made my day.

Response by SSG Richard Stevens made Dec 7 at 2014 12:29 PM

2014-12-07T12:29:41-05:00

When I was back in the 1980s they would salute each other regardless of rank its called respect. It should never change

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Dec 7 at 2014 12:32 PM

2014-12-07T12:32:27-05:00

Seriously? This is still going on?

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Dec 7 at 2014 5:58 PM

2014-12-07T17:58:39-05:00

All Servicemembers must follow orders and regulations. You answered the question when you quoted the reg. YES

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2014 5:09 PM

2014-12-17T17:09:58-05:00

Response by SSG Stephen Arnold made Dec 25 at 2014 6:23 PM

2014-12-25T18:23:55-05:00

Upon further reflection, I was left with a question: who really pays attention to what lieutenants do?

;)

Response by John Russell made Jan 17 at 2015 11:22 PM

2015-01-17T23:22:01-05:00

Long live the Lieutenant Mafia. No need to salute..just chuckle in delight as you pass each other by. Black bar and butter bars..raise up!! On another note..let us continue to flog this dead horse.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2015 12:04 AM

2015-01-18T00:04:10-05:00

I know this is an old thread, but throwing down my 0.02 - if you outrank me, you're getting saluted. Period. If you salute me, you're getting a returned salute. This is pretty black and white in my book.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2015 4:19 PM

2015-02-01T16:19:48-05:00

I just don't think this is getting the attention it really needs. Just want to bump this thing back up to it's place of importance.

Response by SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA made Feb 1 at 2015 4:40 PM

2015-02-01T16:40:48-05:00

Salute up the ranks...next question please!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2015 7:50 PM

2015-02-01T19:50:16-05:00

The issue is one of the "book way" versus the "street way". Many 2Lts are good friends with their 1Lt comrades and that level of familiarity makes them uncomfortable with saluting one another. Really the question then becomes one of command climate. How much of a stickler is the boss?

Response by SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA made Feb 2 at 2015 3:35 AM

2015-02-02T03:35:02-05:00

holy heck CPT Private RallyPoint Member - over 600 comments? and you were worried this post would not get attention!? Good thing you fired and adjusted!

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made Feb 5 at 2015 8:35 AM

2015-02-05T08:35:54-05:00

I would take it one step further. As an example: when I was deployed forward with USCENTCOM, I was a CDR and my boss was a LTC, both O-5s. Even though he was uncomfortable with it, I saluted him...BECAUSE HE WAS MY BOSS. That said, we can't get ridiculous here. That was in garrison in Saudi Arabia. Conversely, when I took a team to Afghanistan, I insisted they remove the insignia on their covers and not salute, even though soldiers were saluting all over Bagram, INCLUDING in the HQ compound!!! How crazy is that! As far as anyone knew, we were government contractors and I was happy not be be saluted. The bottom line here is that we have to set an example, but it has to make sense. In some communities, naval aviation for instance, the custom is (or was) that O-2s did not salute O-3s, because they'd be saluting all day. I don't necessarily agree with it, but one has to understand both the military culture, the subculture, and the safety realities of your environment.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2015 3:44 PM

2015-02-05T15:44:39-05:00

I remember walking into the BN HQ a few days after I graduated BOLC. A 1LT was walking out and I saluted him. My BC was walking in behind me. He said, "y'all are both LTs knock that shit off". We both promptly saluted him and went about our business.

Response by LTC John Wilson made Feb 11 at 2015 12:46 PM

2015-02-11T12:46:41-05:00

all lesser ranks should salute senior ranks to show continuity and professionalism.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2015 10:43 PM

2015-02-19T22:43:41-05:00

Holy Cow. This thing to 18000 views. That is insane. It only goes to show the importance of this question. Everyone wants to know.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2015 5:59 PM

2015-03-07T17:59:29-05:00

If the 1LT is your company commander, salute. That goes whether the person initiating the salute is a 2LT or a 1LT. As for a 2LT saluting other 1LTs, the majority of lieutenant positions in the Army are platoon leaders. They're doing the same job and learning the same things for career progression. It symbolizes being on the same level.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2015 6:02 PM

2015-03-07T18:02:57-05:00

Another exception: Chaplains. If you are a 2LT and see the person is a chaplain, pop the salute as one normally sees the Chaplain's cross, tablets, or crescent moon before you see their rank. Either way, if you're a 2LT and see a chaplain, you salute because you know they outrank you.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2015 9:13 PM

2015-03-07T21:13:26-05:00

Is this "that" thread?

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made Mar 7 at 2015 11:31 PM

2015-03-07T23:31:51-05:00

Suck it up and drive on...

LOL - a Lt is a Lt. So that would mean a LTC and a COL = LOL.

Response by SGT Francis Wright made Mar 8 at 2015 12:23 AM

2015-03-08T00:23:45-05:00

When in doubt whip it out. The salute that is......

Response by SrA Curt Dennis made Mar 8 at 2015 11:50 AM

2015-03-08T11:50:03-04:00

I feel that a higher ranking officer should be required the salute be any lower rank, officer or enlisted. A 1st Lt. is a higher rank than a 2nd Lt. so a salute is required.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 10:03 AM

2015-03-09T10:03:31-04:00

I see a regulation as a regulation. It is regulation for a 2LT to render a proper hand salute to a higher grade officer. And therefore, by regulation, they are required, by such regulation to render a proper and professional military hand salute to any and all passing officers of higher grade, which includes a 1LT. If I have to salute a 2LT, even though I may or may not have more TIS/TIG than they do, then they have to do likewise to their superiors. If they don't like it, then they can resign their commission and make room for an officer that will follow the regs.
*No offense to any 2LTs who have read this. But the virulent lack of acceptance to the Army regs concerning customs and courtesies grates on my nerves.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 18 at 2015 11:35 AM

2015-03-18T11:35:22-04:00

No... The only exception I would say would be when a 1LT is the/their Commander.

Response by SGT Corey Franks made Mar 18 at 2015 12:46 PM

2015-03-18T12:46:55-04:00

Does a 1LT have to salute a CPT? CPT salute a MAJ? So on and so forth. Does a E-4 (SPC stand at parade rest for an E-4 (CPL). The answer is...YES!

Response by SSG Paul Lanciault made Mar 18 at 2015 7:38 PM

2015-03-18T19:38:03-04:00

From all the comments I've read it seems not much has changed. We can be professional and familiar. Depending on the environment and the maturity of those concerned.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2015 8:43 PM

2015-03-18T20:43:19-04:00

When I was a Sgt I saluted all officers. When I became an officer I saluted everyone. Never gave either a lot of thought.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2015 8:59 PM

2015-03-18T20:59:20-04:00

When one graduates from crayons to markers, the crayon users better smack their foreheads. (kidding, of course)

In seriousness, junior always salutes senior. It's not just heritage and tradition, it's regulation for at least the AF and Army.

Back to joking - I'm sure the Coast Guard accepts high-fives as substitute. :P

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2015 1:42 PM

2015-04-02T13:42:56-04:00

Although I agree with what you all are saying, I was told that we, 2LTs, don't salute 1LT because of some "gentlemen agreement" thing. This was done after I saluted a few of them and address them appropriately. I have no problem saluting those who are senior to me and it does make me feel awkwardly good when senior NCOs and CWO render the proper courtesy to us young officers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 1:40 PM

2015-04-09T13:40:47-04:00

This is so funny! #butterbarproblems

Response by Maj Daniel Rubadue made Apr 29 at 2015 12:47 AM

2015-04-29T00:47:58-04:00

Salute of course.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made May 12 at 2015 10:46 AM

2015-05-12T10:46:21-04:00

I think the junior officer should always salute senior officer. Unless the junior officer wearing purple heart at the time.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made May 12 at 2015 10:59 AM

2015-05-12T10:59:25-04:00

Interesting to see the Army point of view decades after I served in the USAF, which is much criticized here for lack of discipline. My Air Force experience in the aviation world is different. When I entered pilot training as a 2d Lt, the instructors were all 1st Lts and Capts. The student pilots saluted any instructor or other more senior officer we encountered. The promotion cycles at the time were such that you were promoted to 1st Lt at 18 months commissioned service. Pilot training was a year long and your aircraft-specific training took several months. Add in survival training, travel time, and leave time and many new pilots arrived at their first flying squadron as 1st Lts. The atmosphere was much more relaxed than the school houses, but those of us who arrived at our first squadron as a 2d Lt still saluted 1st Lts.

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made May 12 at 2015 1:48 PM

2015-05-12T13:48:06-04:00

When I found a 1LT and a 2LT walking together, I always made sure I saluted the 2LT. There's not much more fun than poking the 1LTs.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made May 12 at 2015 4:05 PM

2015-05-12T16:05:55-04:00

Should they? Yes because of the rules. But if you work with them it may just be funny. My OIC was a 1st LT. and my AOIC was a 2nd LT. They don't salute each other because they work together and see each other everyday.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 4:18 PM

2015-05-12T16:18:17-04:00

I am a 2LT and always salute 1LT's.

Response by 1LT A. Uribe made May 18 at 2015 10:06 PM

2015-05-18T22:06:35-04:00

Here's the issue as a new 2LT from OCS. ROTC cadets are the biggest violators of this from what I've Seen. In addition I've been told that senior officers don't expect LTs saluting LTs, this was an issue in BOLC, my response was this; no one in the U.S. Army outranks the Chief of Staff or the Secretary of the U.S. Army which if you look closely around page 3 of any AR, FM, TM etc they are the approving authority. Furthermore, how do we expect NCOs to do as we say if we don't set the example. That's my two cents.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made May 18 at 2015 10:08 PM

2015-05-18T22:08:28-04:00

rank among LTs is like chastity among .....

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made May 18 at 2015 10:16 PM

2015-05-18T22:16:50-04:00

My dad was a very early (Early 1960s) promoted CW4. On the day that I was commissioned, he saluted me and I handed him a silver dollar. He said " Don't get used to it, that's the last time ever son"

Response by SPC(P) Mark Newman made May 21 at 2015 12:17 AM

2015-05-21T00:17:41-04:00

Of course. You salute officers who outrank you; regs don't say, "Unless theIr rank sounds like your rank." Lt. Cols salute full birds, right?

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 4:00 AM

2015-05-21T04:00:50-04:00

I would refer back to AR 600-25, Customs and Courtesies. Outside of deployment and "sniper checks," at what point is it acceptable to not abide by standards? Is the person senior to you? Yes? Then provide the appropriate recognition until directed otherwise.

Response by SFC John Birks made May 26 at 2015 6:40 PM

2015-05-26T18:40:48-04:00

Of course they should, out of respect..

Response by CPT William Gordon made May 27 at 2015 3:18 PM

2015-05-27T15:18:26-04:00

Why is this question even being posed? Every junior officer will salute a senior officer. Even an officer of the same grade that was commissioned first will be saluted by the same RANK junior officer.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made May 27 at 2015 4:42 PM

2015-05-27T16:42:07-04:00

Trick question so the answer is who cares about LTs. But yes.

Response by CPT William Gordon made May 27 at 2015 4:43 PM

2015-05-27T16:43:08-04:00

Look at AR 600-25 tells you all you need to know!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 5:12 PM

2015-05-27T17:12:14-04:00

Wait… they don't? (Sarcasm induced laughter)

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 10:18 PM

2015-05-27T22:18:29-04:00

The only ones who truly care from my experience are LT's

Response by MAJ Chris Ballard made May 28 at 2015 8:01 AM

2015-05-28T08:01:16-04:00

I see this as a somewhat tongue-in-cheek question, and generally the old adage is true: rank among lieutenants is like virtue among whores. However, there are some instances when it would be appropriate. The first that comes to mind is that the 1LT is in charge of the 2LT. We don't see it too much anymore, but it used to be common for a 1LT to be a company commander, with 2LT platoon leaders. I had a similar issue in my 3rd company command, in which all my PLs were captains.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2015 2:02 PM

2015-05-28T14:02:57-04:00

Only if the 1LT is serving as commander. I can only speak from the Guard side, but there's no such thing as a 2LT slot - every 2LT is in a duty position that a 1LT can hold, which differentiates LTs from the LTC/COL relationship. A 2LT PL shouldn't salute a 1LT PL.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Jun 4 at 2015 4:10 PM

2015-06-04T16:10:31-04:00

why wouldn't they? one holds a higher commissioned rank.

Response by SP5 Oscar Plowman made Jun 7 at 2015 11:23 AM

2015-06-07T11:23:00-04:00

If the Butter bar or the 1st Lt don't understand AR 600-25 maybe they could = GET DOWN AND GIVE ME 50 PUSHUPS!!!!

Response by SPC Tiffany Ivanov made Jun 27 at 2015 12:20 AM

2015-06-27T00:20:19-04:00

I absolutely think so. It's a matter of respect for each other, for what they do, and what they swore to do as an officer. And it sets a good example for lower enlisted.

Response by SPC George Rudenko made Jun 30 at 2015 5:29 PM

2015-06-30T17:29:42-04:00

No, to me both are sheftails. LOL

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2015 5:23 PM

2015-07-02T17:23:43-04:00

Technically I believe you would be correct, but it's kinda like a specialist requiring a pfc to go to parade rest for him and adress him as specialist. Technically correct, but won't win you any actual respect.

Response by MIDN 2/C Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2015 10:31 PM

2015-07-02T22:31:35-04:00

I may be a Political Science major, and math isn't my forte but I have created a very detailed formula to explain this.
2ndLt = O1
1stLt = O2

O2 > O1 = O1 saluting O2

Response by SSgt John Vanderhoff made Jul 16 at 2015 1:45 PM

2015-07-16T13:45:21-04:00

Bottom line is that if one outranks the other, then salute. Would a Lt.Col not Salute a Col.? They are both Col's.....both field grade. It goes to good order and discipline, and setting the example. While I only see a "first termer" when I look at a Lt., the bottom line is that they served their time as a "butter bar" and just the same as getting promoted from Corporal to Sgt...etc....they take pride in their advancement as well. It's only a salute, and as a service member, by not doing it your just being lazy. You hear the same conversations about CWO's Saluting Lt's. When I was on active duty, I worked with MANY CWO's, and the ones that took pride in the uniform and set the example ALWAYS saluted LT's. I asked one why they did due to the fact that I heard this topic even while on active duty and his response was " Have you ever seen a 1st or 2nd Lt reporting to a CWO as his Commanding Officer?" In short....NO. However, I have seen a 1st Lt serve as a Company Commander over CWO's. Why? Because they are SENIOR in RANK. Understand what a salute means, practice customs and courtesies, and have respect for your fellow service members regardless of which rank structured path they chose to go down. Each step whether Officer or Enlisted is an accomplishment and should be respected for that persons achievement. Just my opinion.

John V.
USMC

Response by SFC Timothy Riser made Jul 17 at 2015 10:52 AM

2015-07-17T10:52:35-04:00

This should never be up for discussion, I stand at parade rest for any NCO higher ranking than me because that is the reg it is no different for officers

Response by MAJ Jeffery Miller made Jul 17 at 2015 6:25 PM

2015-07-17T18:25:44-04:00

rank among Lts is like virtue among whores

Response by SPC Elaine Brown made Jul 25 at 2015 11:32 PM

2015-07-25T23:32:39-04:00

Yes, enough said.

Response by 1LT George Snuggs made Jul 26 at 2015 4:23 PM

2015-07-26T16:23:20-04:00

Yes

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jul 26 at 2015 5:16 PM

2015-07-26T17:16:43-04:00

Let's get to a thousand comments.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2015 3:33 PM

2015-07-27T15:33:07-04:00

Per Reg, yes, but if the 1LT tells you not to salute him, wouldn't that be an order from a superior officer? Just stirring the pot here. :)

Response by SPC Katherine Karpinski made Jul 31 at 2015 7:36 AM

2015-07-31T07:36:50-04:00

salute both

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 2:46 PM

2015-08-18T14:46:15-04:00

This forum belongs on the dark web - not all of Rallypoint - just this one forum thread.

Response by SGT Scott Bell made Sep 5 at 2015 4:16 PM

2015-09-05T16:16:30-04:00

yes

Response by SGT Scott Bell made Sep 5 at 2015 4:48 PM

2015-09-05T16:48:13-04:00

A 2 LT is Junior to a 1LT

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2015 9:14 PM

2015-09-06T21:14:13-04:00

Like you said, per AR 600-25 the junior officer must salute the senior officer. It would be the same difference if the LTC didn't salute the COL, or the BG not salute the MG. both are called Colonel or both are called General.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 9:06 PM

2015-10-05T21:06:32-04:00

Since it has been brought up. Allow me to bump this up to the front page.

*scurries away to my foxhole*

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2015 1:35 AM

2015-11-01T01:35:03-04:00

Let me pose a more interesting question: Do officers of the same rank salute each other? I had one briefing that said they exchange salutes simultaneously. According to 1LT Eric Rosa's quote, they do although I have rarely seen equal rank officers do it. One thing I also tell the cadet groups I work with--always think if the salute as a mutual greeting between 2 brother (sister) members of the profession of arms--the junior merely initiates, but remember the senior is saluting YOU back as a fellow member of the team!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2015 1:14 AM

2015-11-05T01:14:27-05:00

I just feel this this isn't getting enough attention.

Response by MAJ Hugh Blanchard made Nov 6 at 2015 10:02 PM

2015-11-06T22:02:34-05:00

Uh, why is this a debate? Yes, any officer salutes an officer of higher rank. Period.

Response by CPT Bruce Rodgers made Nov 6 at 2015 10:24 PM

2015-11-06T22:24:56-05:00

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2015 5:52 AM

2015-11-07T05:52:48-05:00

I was told by two 1Lt instructors at my tech school as a 2Lt to stop saluting Lts...haven't done it since. I certainly don't mind not getting saluted by a 2Lt now. It's the silent rule between Lts that we don't do that stuff.

Response by SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres made Nov 7 at 2015 3:38 PM

2015-11-07T15:38:59-05:00

Yes, not even a question.

Response by MAJ Alvin B. made Nov 8 at 2015 10:16 PM

2015-11-08T22:16:36-05:00

Hmmm. This was not a big issue in the units in which I served. The AR says salute the junior salutes the senior, it does not distinguish, so you salute the senior. As I recall you also salute your peer, though who salutes first mat be tricky, but we managed to work it out.

Response by SFC Wesley Arnold, Jr made Nov 20 at 2015 6:22 PM

2015-11-20T18:22:35-05:00

Should a Captain salute a Major ... or a Colonel salute a General? Should a child salute their parent or vise versa, how about siblings? Regardless of regulations it a part of basic protocol and respect. It's the little things like begs the question of what do we allow to slip today that we ask "How did we get here?", "Who does that Soldier belong too?", or "Who is responsible for their blatant disrespect?". This leads to the blind leading the blind. There is a desperate need to return the the "Raw" basics.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2015 2:06 PM

2015-12-09T14:06:39-05:00

I only salute 1LTs, and call them sir/ma'am if they're company commanders or soon to be captains.

Response by SPC Stacey Lowell made Dec 9 at 2015 5:19 PM

2015-12-09T17:19:13-05:00

Since when did saluting an officer become optional? Back in the days, whether I liked them or not, I still saluted them. There was one 2LT, though, that just had a time with compasses...

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2015 6:30 PM

2015-12-10T18:30:59-05:00

Why oh, why CPT Private RallyPoint Member is this trending again?

Response by MSG Gerry Poe made Dec 10 at 2015 8:50 PM

2015-12-10T20:50:27-05:00

If my E-7s stand at parade rest for me, then we lead by example in our unit! Our 2LTs salute our 1LT. I always remind our soldiers and leaders IDT is "Inactive Duty Training"! Hence the word "Training". Soldier up people!

Response by MSG Cassandra Wilds made Dec 11 at 2015 4:36 PM

2015-12-11T16:36:26-05:00

Of course. Why not? Mutual respect

Response by PVT William Bresch made Dec 29 at 2015 9:44 AM

2015-12-29T09:44:06-05:00

Depends on who is standing in front of who 1 to 2 or 2 to 1, sorry couldn't resist. lol

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2016 2:45 PM

2016-01-07T14:45:57-05:00

Not sure

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2016 3:38 PM

2016-01-07T15:38:41-05:00

By reg, they should. But IMHO, a 2LT saluting a 1LT is about the same as a SGT standing at parade rest when talking to a SSG. If there are other Soldiers around, they should do it to set the proper example. But if not, I see no compelling reason to stand on ceremony. I get the whole custom and courtesy and respect angle, but being an officer, I always get a little smile on my face when I recognize the person approaching me is another MAJ and neither one of us is required to render a salute. Nothing like walking two blocks from your office to the PX at lunchtime and getting to salute 300 times as everyone and their brother wishes you a "good morning, sir". lol

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2016 8:44 PM

2016-01-09T20:44:30-05:00

It's very clear in our regs and articles. Custom and courtesies. You dhow respect to the higher ranking. I'm sure a general of the same rank would salute the other out of respect for each other. If a 2nd LT doesn't salute a 1st. That not following custom and courtesies and doesn't show lower enlisted the right thing. So yes they should salute per Army Regulations everyone falls under them.

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made Jan 14 at 2016 12:49 PM

2016-01-14T12:49:32-05:00

The real questions should be whether a 1LT should salute a LTjg. I would say yes! (LOL)

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2016 10:09 PM

2016-01-14T22:09:08-05:00

On my first day as a 2LT, I saluted a 1LT as we passed each other. He laughed out loud. The second one I saluted laughed, but stopped and told me that "rank among LTs is like virtue among whores" and said I needed to stop doing it. I stopped, and never did again. In the Army it just wasn't done, period. And no enlisted soldier or NCO ever questioned it or asked why we didn't.

Response by Capt Brandy (Thompson) McDermed made Jan 15 at 2016 1:05 AM

2016-01-15T01:05:29-05:00

Within the 1st month after arriving at my 1st duty station as a 2Lt, I saluted a 1Lt. He corrected me on the spot in a very kind mentor-ish way, stating simply that it wasn't practiced among Lt's. We were both nurses and were nowhere remotely close to being In a "leadership" position (i.e. OIC, flight lead, or Commander of anything). A couple years later, I promoted to 1Lt. At that point, I was also saluted by a couple 2Lts and on each occasion I told them the same. Based on our job descriptions, it seemed that I'd be rather narcissistic if I expected 2Lts to salute me.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 12:15 AM

2016-02-02T00:15:11-05:00

Personally, I would out of respect for the rank itself. I realized that some service members are of the impression that 1LT "dont really know much more" than a 2LT, but there's still the time in service and slight seniority that comes with it. It's not a salute, but junior Marines (Private and PFC) will often give the greeting of the day to senior Lance Corporals.

The rule of thumb I would go with in both situations is keep doing it until you've built a rapport with the senior or they've specifically asked you not to. And this is only in a one on one situation. If you have other superiors or subordinates around you, you should always stick with the regulation to SET THE EXAMPLE.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2016 11:58 AM

2016-02-02T11:58:32-05:00

I understand that one holds a position of higher commissioned rank for the LTs, but in my interpretation of the regulation and in my humble opinion unless the 1LT is in command all LTs are the same. I believe that LTJG Private RallyPoint Member put it very well when he said that "junior Marines will often give the greeting of the day to senior Lance Corporals." I believe the key word in that sentence is Senior. Leadership is about knowing and understanding your operational environment.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2016 3:56 PM

2016-02-04T15:56:40-05:00

Yes. The Army has a rank structure.

Response by SSgt Christopher Clinton made Feb 12 at 2016 9:11 PM

2016-02-12T21:11:04-05:00

lower rank salutes higher rank. warrant salutes officer, 2lt salutes 1st lt. simple

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2016 9:17 PM

2016-02-15T21:17:44-05:00

No. And if you expect it as a 1LT, you're 99% likely to be a guy who nobody likes.

Response by SSG Jesse Cheadle made Feb 16 at 2016 4:02 PM

2016-02-16T16:02:47-05:00

Why is this even a question?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2016 3:23 PM

2016-02-18T15:23:23-05:00

It's not done however, according Custom and Courtesy a junior is supposed to salute a senior ranking. Case and point doesn't a Lieutenant COLONEL salute a Colonel?

Response by SPC Brandon Hamilton made Mar 29 at 2016 4:57 PM

2016-03-29T16:57:57-04:00

Affirmative.

Response by Cpl Joseph R. Connors / USMC made Apr 30 at 2016 6:24 AM

2016-04-30T06:24:11-04:00

How is this even a question???! (Am I being fooled by someone inserting a Duffel Blog article in here? Lol) ABSOLUTELY, a 2nd Lt. should Salute a 1st Lt.!!! This is basic customs and courtesies 101!!! Let me ask you this 1st Lt, should a 1st Lt salute a Capt.? (0-3) If your conclusion is "Yes", then there is your answer. A 1st Lt is a higher ranking Officer then a "Boot Butter-Bar". If the Butter-Bar doesn't perform the required guidelines for basic customs and courtesies, by saluting his superiors, then immediately "lock" that bag nasty joker into the position of "Attention" and give him a very well deserved ass-chewing and make him "police" the surrounding area for cigarette butts around the Enlisted Barracks.... Bonus points if he comes across a used Condom in his punishment... ehem, excuse me, "corrective action" taken for being an Unsat, lackadaisical, border-line belligerent Bag Nasty ;)

Response by MSgt Rena Schmidt made May 6 at 2016 1:32 PM

2016-05-06T13:32:40-04:00

it is a sign of respect for the rank, we have been told that it is a silent hello.

Response by MAJ Bill Maynard made May 12 at 2016 5:17 AM

2016-05-12T05:17:28-04:00

I believe this a time honored tradition of 2LT's not saluting 1LT's. Yes, it is against regulation, but these two ranks are so junior and so similar. An exception would be if the CO is a 1LT, but that is it. I would say that this situation is also common with WOs, although I have no first hand knowledge. I teach JROTC and I have cadets going on to SROTC. I tell them, somewhat jokingly but also true, to not salute any 1LTs once they have been commissioned.

Maybe some will disagree, but I like these unwritten rules or policies we have in the military. It makes it so much more fun and interesting.

Response by SPC Ron Hines made May 26 at 2016 11:40 PM

2016-05-26T23:40:35-04:00

Only in Harrison and field training never in war,the enemy would know who the officers where.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2016 12:07 PM

2016-05-29T12:07:34-04:00

No. Nothing more to be said.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2016 11:25 AM

2016-06-01T11:25:25-04:00

One is an 01, the other an 02. I dont see any confusion here.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Jun 3 at 2016 10:41 AM

2016-06-03T10:41:39-04:00

Holy old thread.

Response by CW5 Andrew J. Foreman made Jun 3 at 2016 10:11 PM

2016-06-03T22:11:51-04:00

Saluting is a time honored tradition. I often see Soldier change direction to avoid saluting. I feel it an honor to salute and be saluted. Bottom line junior officers should salute senior officers. It will be a proud day when I salute my 2LT son!

Response by SFC Dean Wyman made Jun 25 at 2016 12:36 PM

2016-06-25T12:36:20-04:00

Both you retards would probably stab yourself in the eye with your thimbs.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2016 3:36 PM

2016-06-25T15:36:43-04:00

I think the reason most 2LTs don't salute 1LTs is because they often hold the same positions--platoon leaders, XOs, BN staff etc. There are times where a 2LT will be an XO over other senior 1LTs. I would laugh out loud if a 2LT were to salute me now, but it is regulation so I would have saluted a 1LT when I was a 2LT if they really made a big deal about it.

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made Jun 25 at 2016 3:40 PM

2016-06-25T15:40:45-04:00

Yes-But in any subordinates defense, it is sometimes difficult to determine someone's rank until you are very close to then especially with the subdue variety!!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2016 7:22 PM

2016-06-25T19:22:11-04:00

I was once saluted by a 2LT when I was a 1LT. Believe I told him he was an idiot...seemed about the right response. Because, to be honest, what had I as a 1LT really done to outrank him? Nothing, except breathe and not screw things up too badly.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2016 8:30 PM

2016-06-25T20:30:14-04:00

Yes, Plain and simple and it is a Military Tradition.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2016 3:51 PM

2016-06-26T15:51:29-04:00

A different perspective- in the Navy among pilots 0-1 thru 0-3 don't salute each other. It drives the shoes (shipdrivers, so called because they wear black shoes as opposed to the brown aviation shoes) crazy. I've seen shoe Ensigns call LTJG sir without hesitation and mean it. The LTJGs require the salute. In aviation once you have wings you are judged by how good you are in the cockpit and in your ground job. We consider ourselves equal more or less when it comes to who respects who. Also, as has been previously mentioned, we don't salute uncovered nor do we salute on the flight line.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Jun 28 at 2016 12:28 AM

2016-06-28T00:28:46-04:00

I THINK IT SHOULD BE A HABIT FOR SOMEONE IN A LOWER GRADE OFFICER OR ENLISTED SHOULD SHOW REPECT TO THE PERSON IN A HIGHER GRADE 2LT OR 1LT OR CAPTAIN UP TO GENERAL THATS SHOWING RESPECT.

Response by CW4 Keith Dolliver made Jun 28 at 2016 1:30 PM

2016-06-28T13:30:30-04:00

I'm surprised no one has brought it up after all this time, but as anyone that has ever worked in/with NATO would know, there is officially no distinction between O-1 and O-2. They are both classed as an OF-1 (and yes, this applies to US as well as allied countries). Captain is an OF-2. I'm sure there are people that will say "so what, that's NATO", but, seeing as how hotly contested this topic seems to have been, I think it is an interesting fact to point out.

Also, for all the NCO's out there that have criticized the non-salute practice based on the fact that it's an unwritten custom and not in the regulation, I'm curious as to how many of you can honestly say that you call every Warrant Officer you come across Sir/Ma'am or Mr./Ms. rather than "Chief". I would hazard a guess that a solid 90% could not say that you do. I only mention this because that too has become an accepted practice, but is not listed in any regulation as a title of address.

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2016 2:00 AM

2016-07-18T02:00:02-04:00

Yes. An O2 outranks an O1. This is why E9s salute O1s... hierarchy in the military is pretty cut and dry.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2016 3:22 PM

2016-08-05T15:22:39-04:00

Every time I get tired of the political stuff on this site I come back to this post. I know it is old but I love reading the discussion on whether an 2LT should salute a 1LT. It just cracks me up. Thank you CPT Private RallyPoint Member for posting this nugget those three years ago.

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2016 3:55 AM

2016-08-22T03:55:26-04:00

Looking back though the RP posts, this is an infamous post! It has to be one of the most popular posts in RP history!

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Aug 25 at 2016 7:14 AM

2016-08-25T07:14:06-04:00

Bottom line, yes. In the real world, LTs are plentiful and interchangeable. Most position slots call for an LT. Often they are peers, PLT Leaders. The other issue is how short time in grade is required for both ranks promote.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2016 11:34 AM

2016-09-03T11:34:44-04:00

I was told no, "there is no honor amongst thieves".

That said, as I reported to the Army as a direct commission 2LT the first person I saw on the first day of OBC happened to be a 1LT. I was still in NCO mode and saluted before I could stop myself. She just looked me very uncomfortably and tried to return the salute so I sort of dropped and just said good morning. Turns out she was direct commission also but never in the military so didn't know what to do.
The AMEDD is a funny place.

Response by CPT Earl George made Sep 6 at 2016 6:27 PM

2016-09-06T18:27:52-04:00

we did not in Germany in the early 70's. However, my company commander was a 1LT and got salutes from the 2LT's in the company.

Response by PO3 Rod Arnold made Oct 2 at 2016 4:30 PM

2016-10-02T16:30:28-04:00

The senior rank always be saluted, just as it's written!!!

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Oct 15 at 2016 3:08 PM

2016-10-15T15:08:32-04:00

1st Lt is senior... only exception to Junior-to-Senior ranking is for MoH... ALL salute the recipient first.

Response by SFC George Smith made Oct 15 at 2016 7:57 PM

2016-10-15T19:57:16-04:00

it's the structor and order of Rank...

Response by SGT Mike Watson made Nov 2 at 2016 6:41 PM

2016-11-02T18:41:44-04:00

Butter Bar should salute yes

Response by MAJ Alvin B. made Nov 3 at 2016 6:30 PM

2016-11-03T18:30:52-04:00

Short answer. YES! End of discussion.

Response by PFC Rickey Cook made Dec 6 at 2016 9:08 AM

2016-12-06T09:08:27-05:00

RANK IS JUST THAT RANK EXCEPT LTS AND LTC VS. COL. SO THE CORRECT ANSWER IS YES ALWAYS SALUTE . KEEPS THE JAGS OFFICE SLOW.LOL

Response by CH (COL) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2017 6:52 AM

2017-01-10T06:52:36-05:00

Only initiated by the 2LT as a specific honor. If you want help through your career and not enemies, you won't be a total jerk and try to make your peers salute you. I'd use stronger language but I'm a chaplain.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Jan 10 at 2017 9:25 AM

2017-01-10T09:25:24-05:00

YES!!!!!!!

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jan 10 at 2017 10:37 AM

2017-01-10T10:37:31-05:00

This shouldn't even be a question for crying out loud. The regs state that the junior rank will salute the senior rank (period). I saluted 2LT's all the time regardless of my rank/yrs in, and would drop my troops for failing to do so. Also Officers will salute equal Officers if they are in higher command. Example, 2LT temporarily Acting Company Commander- all Plt Leaders will salute him! Damn LT you should know better, the hell with what other folks are doing, you are required to follow/enforce the regs!

Response by MAJ Howard Manwarren made Jan 10 at 2017 2:55 PM

2017-01-10T14:55:30-05:00

No. As the old saying goes there is no rank among whores.

Response by MSgt John Darchangelo made Jan 10 at 2017 2:56 PM

2017-01-10T14:56:29-05:00

As a SNCO, I have stopped a 2LT and informed them that they need to salute a 1LT and when they tried to object, I asked them if they had time to go with me to speak with their COL, my COL or the base commander. If they attempted to argue with me, I took their name, rank, and organization and informed them they would be contacted. It didn't take long for word to get out on the base that there was an asshole SNCO calling 2LTs to account. I also called out officers who did not return the salutes of those who saluted them.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made Jan 10 at 2017 4:57 PM

2017-01-10T16:57:09-05:00

He's a superior officer, absolutely.

Response by MAJ Glynn Garcia made Jan 11 at 2017 6:25 AM

2017-01-11T06:25:22-05:00

No. Unless he/she happens to be a 1LT(P) company commander. Same for majors when one is MAJ (P) battalion commanders, etc.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2017 4:15 PM

2017-01-11T16:15:02-05:00

I agree every higher ranking above your own should be given the respect of a salute. As a Warrant I much more of a lot of things than a 2 LT or 1 Lt but I also have respect for their rank and willingness to become a leader so I happily acknowledge them with a salute. They should do the same with each other as well.

Response by LCpl Bradley Otto made Jan 11 at 2017 8:44 PM

2017-01-11T20:44:50-05:00

ProtaCal would dicake that the Jr. Officer Salute.

Response by 1SG Darren James made Jan 14 at 2017 12:47 AM

2017-01-14T00:47:32-05:00

Yes a junior ranking person should salute a senior ranking person. A 1LT is senior to a 2LT. That's how it is.

Response by Sgt John Mostowski made Jan 16 at 2017 11:05 AM

2017-01-16T11:05:02-05:00

Yes, you're saluting the rank, not the person

Response by SGT Stephen Tucker made Jan 31 at 2017 1:10 PM

2017-01-31T13:10:45-05:00

This is an easy one. When it comes to officers you salute them in they are a higher rank than you. That means all enlisted salute officers! If your an officer and your rank is one less than your peer than you salute them. For example a LTC will salute a COL. So a 2nd LT should salute a 1st LT its very simple. Those are the rules and should be followed as so. On the enlisted side I have had friends who were higher ranking then myself I still stood at parade rest to speak to them unless other wise told to stand at ease. The regulations are written out very clearly there is no excuse for not following them.

Response by MSgt Thelbert (Whitey) Roark made Jan 31 at 2017 2:03 PM

2017-01-31T14:03:45-05:00

" Most see a LT as a LT regardless of being a 1st or 2nd. How do you all feel about this?"

That's like saying a Light Colonel is the same as a Full Bird Colonel.

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2017 12:32 PM

2017-02-15T12:32:42-05:00

That's like saying should a major salute a lieutenant colonel. Of course. He/She is higher in the chain of command.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made Feb 16 at 2017 2:10 PM

2017-02-16T14:10:47-05:00

Absolutely.

Response by SSG Everett Wilson made Feb 28 at 2017 5:01 AM

2017-02-28T05:01:10-05:00

Yes, out of respect

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2017 5:06 AM

2017-02-28T05:06:45-05:00

Who cares,... the number one cause of death on the battlefield is still bleeding from an extremity,... learn how to apply a tourniquet then decide your finite pecking order.

Response by LTC Donald Zacherl made Feb 28 at 2017 5:37 AM

2017-02-28T05:37:17-05:00

What a bunch of new age crap.
Yes, junior salutes senior. Period.
Don't you have more important things to worry about?

Response by SGT Bryan O'Reilly made Feb 28 at 2017 6:04 AM

2017-02-28T06:04:05-05:00

Sir, He should absolutely salute his superior to show the proper courtesy and respect due any superior officer. Our traditions may seem out of step to some, sir. But they are not by happenstance. We salute the uniform and the superior rank 1st because the officer has earned it but we also respect the man as an individual as we engage and work together. This is vital to developing discipline and cohesion in the COC. This means that respect is not given or deserved Respect is either earned or taken No one gives it. So earn it or take, sir, Hooah! PS I once failed to salute a Maj Gen at Ft Ord while running a platoon up artty hill one frosty morning and I never forgot the lesson, sir.
Bayonet!

Response by SGT Mike Moschkin made Feb 28 at 2017 6:41 AM

2017-02-28T06:41:51-05:00

It is part of the chain of command and it is part of the regulations yes they should ! Unless they are friends and the 1st tells him it isn't necessary when are in private !

Response by SFC Bayardo Reyes made Feb 28 at 2017 7:05 AM

2017-02-28T07:05:19-05:00

Sur, Should a PVT or PV2 stand at parade rest when speaking with a PFC? Should a SGT do these same with a staff sergeant? Very few organizations still apply such. A reminder of rank structure. Should they, yes. Is it enforced everywhere? No. You have set a great example.

Response by MAJ George Huley made Feb 28 at 2017 7:11 AM

2017-02-28T07:11:42-05:00

Yes, it is a privilege to salute anyone, as it is a sign of mutual respect, not just a recognition of a superior rank.

Response by CW2 Donald Kempf made Feb 28 at 2017 7:22 AM

2017-02-28T07:22:18-05:00

Having been Junior Enlisted, NCO, Commissioned Officer and Warrant, I have a unique perspective on this and it is pretty simple, the Junior Officer should salute any Senior Officer outdoors and when reporting indoors. Of course I had that drilled into me as a private, then again when I made Sergeant and in OCS and WOCS it got raised to a new height. I never suffered any negative consequence from abiding this regulation and it is a just sign of respect.

The only time you shouldn't is under wartime conditions or if you have been requested by the senior officer to not render a salute.

Response by SGT Steve Hines-Saich B.S. M.S. Cybersecurity made Feb 28 at 2017 7:36 AM

2017-02-28T07:36:24-05:00

Absolutely,

I like the trending answer her that saluting is a time honored tradition between warriors. I also liked the short story about the 1LT Company Cdr. I had a couple of those throughout my career and they were no less capable than a CPT.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Feb 28 at 2017 7:36 AM

2017-02-28T07:36:32-05:00

Should the Lt Col salute the Col? Of course, the junior salutes the senior period. Yes there is rank amongst Lieutenants

Response by SSG Scott Cromes made Feb 28 at 2017 7:44 AM

2017-02-28T07:44:45-05:00

A senior officer is just that. Salute him 2LT

Response by SGT Robert Farrell made Feb 28 at 2017 7:47 AM

2017-02-28T07:47:44-05:00

2nd lt=JR 1st lt=senior-------you always salute your superiors

Response by MSG Micheal P Floyd Jr made Feb 28 at 2017 7:55 AM

2017-02-28T07:55:47-05:00

... the "butter bar", by tradition, shouldn't salute the "Silver Stallion" unless the 1LT is placed in a position of authority over the 2LT. Combat situations is a given, but Unit situations may vary and with a current Chain-of-Command within the Unit the 1st and 2nd may see themselves as equals and working partners. But in the absence of the Captain, the 1st becomes Acting Captain, and the 2nd WILL salute the 1st during any and all encounters.

Response by SSG Geoffry Addison made Feb 28 at 2017 7:56 AM

2017-02-28T07:56:03-05:00

Yes! 2LT should salute a 1LT. Per AR 600-25 and tradition. Other wise the kids enlisting now will start throwing out why should I salute a LT. I've been in xx years longer then they have and you have a break down in discipline in the ranks.

Response by SSG Daniel Lynn made Feb 28 at 2017 8:01 AM

2017-02-28T08:01:16-05:00

Regs are really clear on this. Lower ranking officer (O-1) salutes higher ranking one (O-2). You're not saluting the man so much as the rank. That being said, I agree with many comments seen here: it's about RESPECT,

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2017 8:04 AM

2017-02-28T08:04:15-05:00

When I was a Lieutenant, either rank, I was told (erroneously perhaps) that salutes between Second and First Lieutenants were not necessary, but once one was O-3, they were, and of course, we LTs were to expect (and properly return) salutes from any enlisted or WO ranks. But when I was a PL (1LT), my commander was also a 1LT like me though in an O3 position, and I made a point to salute him though we made the same pay and wore identical rank, because his position was explicitly senior to my own.

Response by SGT Paul Hirsch made Feb 28 at 2017 8:16 AM

2017-02-28T08:16:51-05:00

Higher ranking officers have earned the respect and the right of the hand salute by lower ranking individuals. I this vein, you could make the argument that a Lt. Colonel shouldn't have to salute a full bird. This is not a dilemma. It's another example of someone trying to change something that has worked for many years. Leave it alone.

Response by SSG Willie Means made Feb 28 at 2017 8:17 AM

2017-02-28T08:17:44-05:00

you have a mad man in the white house about the sale the country to the russians and you want to know a stupid question about coustoms and courtesies. ;lease delete me from your page and iwill try to do the same on this end. you need to be rallying veterans and seeking information to turn the tide to get that idiot in the white house and his family an apartment under cia headquarters.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2017 8:18 AM

2017-02-28T08:18:25-05:00

Simple. What does the regulation say?

A salute is not an obligation. A salute is an honor.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2017 8:54 AM

2017-02-28T08:54:40-05:00

I never did. In the units I served in, it would have been greeted with a chuckle. We used to say "Rank among Lieutenants is like honor among thieves". That and a couple similar, but less polite, sayings.

Response by MAJ Herbert Head made Feb 28 at 2017 9:11 AM

2017-02-28T09:11:08-05:00

When I was a LT many many years as a 2LT's we did not salute 1LT's unless they where an XO or Company Commander. If they were just another PL we considered the same.

Response by SGT Ace Paul made Feb 28 at 2017 9:35 AM

2017-02-28T09:35:38-05:00

While in the 82nd Airborne, two Lieutenants became engaged in conversation in front of our Company formation. Nobody really paid attention until my Platoon leader told the other in a loud and clear voicer, "Rank among Lieutenants is like virtue among whores".

Response by LTC Louis Procter made Feb 28 at 2017 9:51 AM

2017-02-28T09:51:01-05:00

Do what is required of you. Render the salute. Rank has it privileges. LTC P.

Response by SFC Alex Contini made Feb 28 at 2017 10:00 AM

2017-02-28T10:00:27-05:00

I saluted everyone...particularly when I could not see their rank. As a traditional greeting among warriors, I always felt anyone who served his/her country deserved recognition. Actually I started doing it when I was constantly saluted by anyone up to the rank of Captain. I was a senior NCO and I would ask a junior officer"why did you salute me?" They would always answer that I "presented as someone in charge." Okay.....? So then the question is are we saluting the uniform or are we saluting the content of character? What deserves our recognition?

Response by COL Scott Pacello made Feb 28 at 2017 10:00 AM

2017-02-28T10:00:57-05:00

No. Let's not carried away with things. An LT is an LT. All good in that world.

Response by SSG Byron J. Johnson made Feb 28 at 2017 10:02 AM

2017-02-28T10:02:49-05:00

Who cares? In my world, battlefield earth, no one would salute anyone. 18C.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Feb 28 at 2017 10:06 AM

2017-02-28T10:06:17-05:00

And this thread lives on!!!!! LOL

Response by SPC Kari Grove Wright made Feb 28 at 2017 10:31 AM

2017-02-28T10:31:36-05:00

I just want to know if someone didn't salute you that is a 2Lt and it put your panties in a bunch?
I see this 2lt walks passed 1lt doesn't salute. 1lt makes comment and 2lt says, we are both LTs, and the 1lt gets offended.
Did I Interpet this right?

Response by SSG Alandtish Eccleston Eccleston made Feb 28 at 2017 10:36 AM

2017-02-28T10:36:11-05:00

You salute the rank not the individual

Response by SFC R. Edwards made Feb 28 at 2017 10:51 AM

2017-02-28T10:51:35-05:00

Yes indeed. If you are a rank less than the other, you should salute them. This is a time honored tradition and is a requirement per AR 600–25. It's difficult to understand at times, but even when you salute someone you don't like, you're saluting the rank. There should be no question.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2017 11:06 AM

2017-02-28T11:06:02-05:00

Yes, this has popped up on trending discussions once again.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2017 11:21 AM

2017-02-28T11:21:18-05:00

Acoording to regs, you do, yes.
Just be an officer and a gentleman, and salute. Out of respect, no reason to feel diminished.

Response by 1SG Rivera Rivera made Feb 28 at 2017 11:50 AM

2017-02-28T11:50:11-05:00

So this has been a no brainer up till now. The salute is a time honor event which is rendered out of respect. The Army I served under kept things simple stupid. A recommended solution is to alleviate this problem eliminate the 1st Lieutenant rank and keep one rank lieutenant.

Response by CPT Jenn Dory made Feb 28 at 2017 12:02 PM

2017-02-28T12:02:56-05:00

BLUF: If you follow the regulation you won't be wrong. However......
When I was a 2LT, it was explained to me that LTs don't salute each other because there is minimal distinction between the two ranks (the language from a seasoned Infantry CSM was more colorful); however, were one in a designated leadership position -- Company Command, for example -- you salute as a sign of respect to the position (and hopefully the person!). Having said that, there is support in the regulation to support saluting anyone of higher rank, and technically 1LT outranks 2LT. Most of the time, though, you and the other LTs (1 or 2) will be trying to survive, not put your foot in your mouth, lose anything expensive or lose a troop that you'll not recognize the difference in day to day life (except in circumstances mentioned above). The distinction becomes absolutely cut and dry when CPT rank is pinned on -- there isn't the same congeniality between LTs of any ilk and a CPT -- salutes then are compulsory, and most of the time deserved. You will find, though, that in cases of advanced courses where 1LTs and CPTs are in the same class, many of the instructors will forego the strict adherence to military regulation to foster learning and open discussion and sharing ideas.

Response by SGT Kenneth Stelly made Feb 28 at 2017 12:58 PM

2017-02-28T12:58:14-05:00

The Army I was in , this wouldn't even be a question. Didn't know this modern military had option to follow regulations.. Geez.

Response by SSgt Roberto Leandro made Feb 28 at 2017 3:25 PM

2017-02-28T15:25:22-05:00

It's all about respect...not just for the senior soldier or officer, but as I see it....self respect as well.
Live with honor.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2017 5:30 PM

2017-02-28T17:30:30-05:00

Same situation...an E4 Specialist stands at parade rest for an E4 Corporal...it's out of respect for the rank and the person

Response by SPC Kenneth Osborne made Feb 28 at 2017 5:46 PM

2017-02-28T17:46:26-05:00

Only when one out ranks the other in position. XO vs. Platoon leader.

Response by SSG Alvin Amezquita made Feb 28 at 2017 6:27 PM

2017-02-28T18:27:11-05:00

It is tradition that all officers, warrants, and enlisted salute the officers above them regardless of rank. We all raised our right hand and swore and oath to do so. This regulation has been here for over two hundred years and it should not change regardless of feelings. If the army wanted its soldiers to have feelings they would have issued them ones.

Response by MSG Don Burt made Feb 28 at 2017 6:38 PM

2017-02-28T18:38:10-05:00

Any Junior Officer should 'ALWAYS' salute his Senior, PERIOD! Army regs., common courtesy and common sense! If it's not being enforced then I would seek resolution to this ASAP, especially if it's on a Military installation...

Response by PO1 Jack Howell made Feb 28 at 2017 8:05 PM

2017-02-28T20:05:15-05:00

Are you serious? This shouldn't even be a question. If one is senior in rank to the other, then a salute is required. Period.

Response by 1LT Tom Wilson made Feb 28 at 2017 11:59 PM

2017-02-28T23:59:15-05:00

As a brand new butter ball at the Infantry School, Fr. Benning GA, having grown up fat, dumb and happy in the Army community of communities as an Army brat and was now authorized to salute in a military manner, legally, I went out of my way to salute anything that walked. I would initiate honors with a Pvt..Joe Shit, the rag picker and wait for his response just for the pleasure of holding a salute and receiving a response. Mission Accomplished,

So, if this is really an issue for anyone on the federal payroll as a sworn republican soldier, s/he needs to review their options, ambitions and opportunities on a civilian career path. Saluting is the act of pure pleasure in the Profession of Arms. As a vet, it breaks my heart I can't salute, legally, but I do, anyway. It's a way of keeping the faith with my dad, who taught me how to salute.

Response by SP5 Patricia Campbell made Mar 1 at 2017 12:52 AM

2017-03-01T00:52:04-05:00

In my Army you did.

Response by MAJ Jeannine Hinman made Mar 1 at 2017 1:52 AM

2017-03-01T01:52:22-05:00

WHAT?? This is a no brainer. The superior officer is the 1LT, and he or she gets a salute from the butter bar and below. OTHERWISE this would be just like a LTC not saluting a full bird COLONEL. "Because they're both Colonels." That's nonsense. And there are more important and more complicated issues.

Response by MAJ Jeffery Miller made Mar 1 at 2017 5:05 AM

2017-03-01T05:05:36-05:00

rank among Lt's is like virtue among whores.

Response by MAJ Raymond Haynes made Mar 1 at 2017 5:13 AM

2017-03-01T05:13:19-05:00

I may be dating myself, but Lt's saluting each other was a violation of the JOPS. Junior Officer Protection Society. We looked out for each other until O-3.

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Mar 1 at 2017 5:16 AM

2017-03-01T05:16:23-05:00

A 1st Lt is never senior to a 2nd Lt. He might have more TIS but a 2Lt is not senior to a 1Lt.

Response by MAJ Grant Gutkowski made Mar 1 at 2017 8:13 AM

2017-03-01T08:13:04-05:00

In my humble opinion, the salute should absolutely ALWAYS be rendered. However, when I was a 2LT (no shit, there I was...), as my relationship deepened with the company XO who was a 1LT, he slowly changed from mentor to friend. After a while, he was embarrassed and uncomfortable to accept my salute, seeing himself more as first among equals. He asked me to stop, so I stopped. I never lost my respectful approach though...even when we were on a first name basis.

In the end, doctrinally, there is no reason NOT to render the salute.

Response by 1SG James Matthews made Mar 1 at 2017 9:32 AM

2017-03-01T09:32:45-05:00

Yes--It is showing the military tradition of respect. It's free and easy to do so do it.

Response by SGT Patrick Hebert made Mar 1 at 2017 10:33 AM

2017-03-01T10:33:51-05:00

Yes they should out of respect to the rank earned

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made Mar 1 at 2017 11:25 AM

2017-03-01T11:25:18-05:00

I always thought 2nd LT's should initiate the salute to senior NCO's not the other way around.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2017 5:11 PM

2017-03-01T17:11:36-05:00

As for the spirit of the regulation..."when in doubt whip it out" and the junior salutes the senior...There was an "unwritten rule" that when two LT's pass each other, one 2LT and one 1LT...in most cases they didn't salute...in ceremonies, formations, parades and when accompanied by a senior etc...then it would fall back to the regulation...

Response by CPT Scott Sharon made Mar 1 at 2017 5:34 PM

2017-03-01T17:34:16-05:00

I don't understand why there would even be a question about this. The general overall question is should a junior officer salute a senior officer? Should a LTC salute a COL? and on and on. The answer is yes. Why would there be any exceptions?

Response by SSG Lloyd Becker BSBA-HCM, MBA made Mar 1 at 2017 5:51 PM

2017-03-01T17:51:58-05:00

As long as there is butter on that bar, he better be saluting.

Response by MAJ Norm Covalt made Mar 2 at 2017 11:12 AM

2017-03-02T11:12:14-05:00

I'll sum it up with how it was related to me by my battery commander eons ago. " Rank among LTs is like virtue among whores, it is not required but decide by the situation and the current environment."

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2017 3:57 PM

2017-03-02T15:57:37-05:00

The answer is no. When I was a LT, the response was that rank among LT's is like honor among thieves, there is none. Essentially, LT's of both rank are peers. The only exception would be if the 1LT was the Commander.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2017 10:29 AM

2017-03-03T10:29:04-05:00

Let me lend a slightly different perspective. When I was a 2LT, I noticed a lot of CPTs really like messing with new LT's. This made it hard to approach CPTs, because if you did you knew you were just in for a session of head games and would leave even more confused than you initially were. Allowing 2LTs to relax around 1LTs gives the new officers someone they can always turn to for guidance, and encourages them to ask questions and get straight, practical answers. I leaned heavily on my 1LTs as a 2LT, and when I promoted other 2LTs leaned heavily on me. I wouldn't have had it any other way.

All that being said, I still think there is a failure of leadership when a asks for clear direction to accomplish a mission and instead finds him/herself playing games.

Response by MSG Guy Smith made Mar 4 at 2017 1:16 PM

2017-03-04T13:16:14-05:00

Officers are Officers and as Enlisted personnel we will salute them, no question there. As far as a 2LT saluting a 1LT, OMG, a couple of lieutenants arguing over date of rank, need I say more. I was once a 2LT who got screwed over by a very unscrupulous NCO. My advice, stay with the old tradition of, "no rank among lieutenants". Concentrate on learning your trade as an Officer, 1LT's have the responsibility to teach the new 2LT's the finer points of being an Officer at their first posting, not to fuck them over, as also happened to me. 1LT's know the good NCO's and the bad ones, your responsibility is to help the new 2LT's identify them, and either kick them in the ass and make good Soldiers out of them, or bust their butts out so better ones can take their place. Stop arguing about bullshit baby crap and be leaders.

Response by CPT Larry Hudson made Mar 4 at 2017 7:44 PM

2017-03-04T19:44:49-05:00

Damn right he had better salute or have a come to Jesus prayer meeting. Military is not a good old boy brotherhood. It requires a command structure, not an excuse structure.

Response by MAJ Charles Cozzens made Mar 6 at 2017 1:16 PM

2017-03-06T13:16:32-05:00

Honor among LT's is like honor among..... need I say more.

Response by SPC Thom Ryan made Mar 7 at 2017 9:19 AM

2017-03-07T09:19:15-05:00

I think a Butter Bar should salute everyone as a humbling experience. Y'all know what I'm talking about...:-)

Response by LCpl Stephen Arnold made Mar 7 at 2017 11:14 AM

2017-03-07T11:14:29-05:00

If I had to salute a second lieutenant, then they should have to salute first johns.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 8 at 2017 12:20 AM

2017-03-08T00:20:29-05:00

never

Response by Capt Joseph Olson made Mar 16 at 2017 6:54 PM

2017-03-16T18:54:10-04:00

Second Lieutenants salute every, every, higher ranking officer. Even First Lieutenants. In the RVN era there was no question about this. I did, nevertheless, have to remind a number of Lieutenants (both grades) about this fact of life. <snicker>

Response by SCPO Don Baker made Mar 21 at 2017 9:40 AM

2017-03-21T09:40:47-04:00

I believe the junior should always salute the senior officer, regardless if it's only one pay grade. With the touchy feely military, so many are worried about hurting someone's feelings. If I saw an enlisted not salute you, I'd step up and rip him a new one. Go on, let the butter bar know who the alpha is.

Response by MAJ Jc H made Mar 23 at 2017 4:08 PM

2017-03-23T16:08:00-04:00

why is this an issue at all? You think a Lieutenant Colonel isn't going to salute a full bird b/c hey "they're both colonels"? This is an odd conversation.

Response by CCMSgt Joe Dehorty made Mar 24 at 2017 7:10 PM

2017-03-24T19:10:19-04:00

Sir: If you follow regulations, how can you go wrong? If the senior officer doesn't want you to salute, they will advise. Also sir, if this is your only problem, y'all have it made. I just wish that during my 33 years, my jr. officers had it that easy. I probably spent more time counseling jr. officers than I did the troops!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2017 1:01 AM

2017-03-25T01:01:33-04:00

I would say no, although back when I was a brand new lemon bar I didn't know any better and saluted someone with the black gold. He corrected me pretty quick. I think it is just one of those unwritten rules, like how officers don't wear marksmanship badges. It isn't written anywhere but we just don't do it. There is plenty of saluting going on anyways without LTs having to worry about saluting each other.

Response by Lt Col Robert Canfield made Mar 27 at 2017 8:01 AM

2017-03-27T08:01:51-04:00

Seriously? Some O-1s have issues with saluting an O-2?
Is there a 2nd Lt joke in there somewhere?

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Mar 27 at 2017 8:02 AM

2017-03-27T08:02:08-04:00

While it was inevitable that this classic RallyPoint discussion would get passed up by other topics, it somehow seems a shame that the new perennial leaders are both anger-centric discussions about disrespect.

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/how-would-you-react-to-an-e2-who-smart-mouths-you-in-formation
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/how-would-you-react-if-someone-tried-to-publicly-accuse-you-of-stolen-valor

Kudos to CPT Private RallyPoint Member for sparking this good-natured round of ribbing. :-)

How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation? | RallyPoint

Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?

Response by CSM Andrew Perrault made Mar 30 at 2017 4:55 PM

2017-03-30T16:55:40-04:00

Enforce the standard sir! he should salute especially is the presence of enlisted Soldiers

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2017 6:00 PM

2017-04-19T18:00:33-04:00

Response by MGySgt David McWatters made Apr 19 at 2017 6:47 PM

2017-04-19T18:47:42-04:00

I am a Retired Marine Mustang. A 2d Lt salutes a 1st Lt. A warrant Officer salutes a 2d Lt and above. In social circumstances, all Leutenants can address each other by their first name but seniority-wise, a 2d Lt would take orders from a 1st Lt. It's called military discipline. When I was a MGySgt at HQMC, the General would call me by my first name, but of course I would address him formally as "General." Nobody seemed to mind except the Major in our shop. Keep in mind, also, that different customs are followed by different services. My Air Force friends would be called by their first name by their pilots (they were mechanics). Of course, the pilots would always pay for drinks for their mechanics. (I don't think I have to explain why.) in the Marine Corps Air Wing, pilots were always generous with their mechanics. Good topic.

Response by 1SG Rick Davis made Apr 25 at 2017 4:40 PM

2017-04-25T16:40:00-04:00

Of course, it's a sign of respect and respect is the backbone of the Army

Response by LCpl Phillip Rehman made Apr 29 at 2017 5:26 PM

2017-04-29T17:26:45-04:00

As young a Marine, I have shot a crisp salute to my Gunny, !st Sargent even a Sargent or two that I knew and respected. If a fellow soldier, NCO or CO, is willing to put his or her ass in the sling for you, Show him or her the respect they have earned, and deserve.

Response by LTC Wayne Brandon made May 1 at 2017 8:25 AM

2017-05-01T08:25:42-04:00

In accordance with Army regulations as established in FM 3 - 22.5, the requirements and intent of the hand salute could not be more clear. The excerpt below is taken from the regulation and edited for brevity but retains relevant content:
A-1. WHEN TO SALUTE
Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled (by grade) to a salute except when it is inappropriate or impractical (in public conveyances such as planes and buses, in public places such as inside theaters, or when driving a vehicle).
c. In any case not covered by specific instructions, the salute is rendered.

The only exception I am aware of regarding the "entitled by grade" reference relates to the respect given to those wearing the MOH.

It is not about what we have or have not seen in our experience, nor how we feel about it.
It is about the regulation being quite specific in this matter as it relates to grade, therefore the 2LT is required to salute the 1st LT in the instances expressed in the regulation.
Will that change anything at this point? Not likely. But when all else fails, consult the regulation, teach your soldiers properly, make on the spot corrections and lead by example.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2017 7:18 PM

2017-05-02T19:18:55-04:00

I always saluted 1st Lts. I didn't care how "silly" it was, or how much of a "fool" I looked like. I wanted it clear that customs and courtesies mattered to me. It's an easy way to show your subordinates that you expect proper customs and courtesies at all time.

Response by CW5 John Vassar made May 2 at 2017 7:44 PM

2017-05-02T19:44:54-04:00

There is no rank among Lieutenants ....

Response by PO1 Jeff Miller made May 6 at 2017 8:43 PM

2017-05-06T20:43:34-04:00

I cannot believe this is really a question, let alone an issue. Should a Ltd. Colonel salute a Colonel, they're both called Colonels. Or should a Lieutenant Junior Grade salute a Lieutenant, they're both called LT's. Or what about a Marine Caplain salute a Navy Captain. If these are the issues that are plaguing the military today, then I'm glad I have my DD-214

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made May 10 at 2017 7:23 AM

2017-05-10T07:23:30-04:00

The rendering of a salute is a greeting between military professionals. By regulation and custom, rendered by the junior to the senior (enlisted to officer). Should a 2nd Lt render a salute to a 1st Lt? Certainly.

Response by CPT Rafael Guzman made May 11 at 2017 8:54 AM

2017-05-11T08:54:32-04:00

In the time I served Lts did not salute each other. We considered each other as peers.

Response by SFC Erin Barnett made May 11 at 2017 1:18 PM

2017-05-11T13:18:11-04:00

DIE THREAD, DIE!!!

Response by CDR Darryl Gordon made May 12 at 2017 10:41 AM

2017-05-12T10:41:47-04:00

Well I have been reading all this and finally I feel the need to throw my two cents in. A 2Lt, not wanting to salute a 1Lt is about to 2Lt not wanting to feel they are less deserving the the 1Lt. The truth is they are less deserving. They haven't been there as long and they haven't put the time in. If we have officers whose egos are so fragile that rendering a salute to someone just senior to them injures them then we are in trouble. These folks have entered a society that requires maturity and judgement. Its time they exercise such.

Granted that between themselves the protocal on saluting is relaxed and always will be barring a pissing contest, but in offical setting the protocal should be followed.

Response by LCpl Michael Parker made May 13 at 2017 6:24 AM

2017-05-13T06:24:55-04:00

always salute a superior officer(s) it sets a possitive example for troops .... Leadership By Example just that simple

Response by Capt James Coursey made May 13 at 2017 10:26 AM

2017-05-13T10:26:23-04:00

Should an Ensign salute a Lt JG?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2017 8:43 PM

2017-05-14T20:43:32-04:00

I can't believe this is a question... it's like a SPC going to parade rest for a Sergeant.. but to sum it up yes

Response by Maj Dennis Turriff made May 15 at 2017 11:33 AM

2017-05-15T11:33:04-04:00

Maybe I'm old school, but I saluted 1Lts when I was a 2Lt. It's the right thing to do. In private, we were on a first name basis, but we always followed proper customs and courtesies in public. I felt if I picked and chose which rules I wanted to follow, then my troops may do the same.

Response by 1stLt Allan Geisler made May 16 at 2017 8:24 PM

2017-05-16T20:24:26-04:00

I was taught that officers salute each other even if of equal rank. USMC, 1962

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2017 5:03 PM

2017-05-18T17:03:37-04:00

Yes.

Response by PFC Ron Patton made May 18 at 2017 11:05 PM

2017-05-18T23:05:25-04:00

The junior officer should salute

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2017 11:08 PM

2017-05-18T23:08:40-04:00

Yes, salute.

Response by PFC Aaron Cox made May 19 at 2017 2:40 PM

2017-05-19T14:40:59-04:00

Even though I have liked only a few LT's over the years. I thought this went without saying.

Response by Sgt Alan Voracek made May 22 at 2017 3:22 PM

2017-05-22T15:22:01-04:00

This is a stupid question. It would be the same as asking should a Lt Col. salute a Colonel? Should a 1 star General salute a 2 star General? The answer is plain and simple, hell yes!

Response by MGySgt James Forward made May 22 at 2017 3:33 PM

2017-05-22T15:33:56-04:00

Not a good question to ask any Marine. JR ALWAYS salutes SR. Master Gunny can not believe you are even asking this question. Covered in basic training...Semper Fi

Response by SSG Howard Dennard made May 23 at 2017 8:57 AM

2017-05-23T08:57:04-04:00

As you stated AR 600-25 covers this question. A 2Lt is junior to a 1Lt so should salute. Is a SFC senior to a SSG? After all they are both addressed as Sargeant. Is a LTC junior to a COL.? They are both addressed as COL. Get my meaning? Junior is junior period.

Response by Capt Al Parker made May 25 at 2017 2:24 PM

2017-05-25T14:24:56-04:00

Absolutely a butter bar should salute a 1st Lt.

Response by SGT Ian MacDonald made May 26 at 2017 8:49 AM

2017-05-26T08:49:11-04:00

There isn't a whole lot of time separating lieutenants from different pier groups... 18 months at the most (nowadays). I'm not surprised if they don't salute each other outside of ceremony.

Response by SSG Jay Marchand made May 28 at 2017 7:54 PM

2017-05-28T19:54:47-04:00

Military courtesy as well as common courtesy, if the person outranks you ....render a proper salute.

Response by COL Glen "Rusty" Armstrong made May 29 at 2017 2:13 PM

2017-05-29T14:13:23-04:00

Of course the 1LT deserves a salute - more if he is in a position as the commander, EXO, within the unit. However, we should all "earn" the respect of the salute from our enlisted and NCOs (which is a right of passage).

Response by 2ndLt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 2 at 2017 8:18 AM

2017-06-02T08:18:12-04:00

As a 2ndLt straight out of TBS and still in a training command (flight school) we are instructed of the "one bar rule" aka 2ndLts, 1stLts, and warrant officers do not salute each other. I don't know where it comes from or why this distinction is made apart from all other officers, but it is taught to every USMC officer before we hit the fleet. I obviously haven't been in service very long, but I think we all know there are unwritten rules that are observed in the military, and for officers (in the Marine Corps at least) this is one of them. It is not a lack of respect or not understanding rank structure, it's just a general rule that is followed for the most part.

Response by CWO4 Ray Fairman made Jun 2 at 2017 10:57 AM

2017-06-02T10:57:11-04:00

There is no question about it. Any junior member of the armed forces salutes any officer higher in rank than themselves and this is not service specific, but applies service wide. This was a "bone of contention" when I went to USMC RWOBC at Camp Barrett at MCB Quantico back in 79 with 18 enlisted years behind me. The Prior-Service Staff Sergeants and Gunnies had no problem with this regulation, but the much younger NCOs Cpls and Sgts felt the need to be seen as "Salty" (Term we used to refer to seasoned veteran members of the Naval services) and used to say " I'm not saluting some "Butter Bar" who doesn't have as much time in the Corps as i have in the chow line." Or "I have used more ink signing paychecks than those "Butter Bars" have drunk coffee." Well the former Staff and Gunnery Sergeants had to fall back on their enlisted training and "Hold Court" with the younger generation.
You always respect the rank and that is what you traditionally salute. If you don't, then when you wear that rank you will not have a reason to expect it to be respected by others.
While you are right that the person wearing the rank has the responsibility to earn respect, they do not have to earn the right to be saluted. If they are a Commander, who leads by virtue of Authority or a Leader who Commands by virtue of Respect, that fact will be clearly evident in their attitude and behavior and the performance of their unit will be correspondingly displayed.

Response by Maj Jim Fussell made Jun 3 at 2017 12:26 PM

2017-06-03T12:26:21-04:00

Of course a 2lt should salute a 1lt. In fact a 2lt should salute another 2lt if he has a more senior commission date. Why would this even be a question?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2017 2:28 PM

2017-06-03T14:28:59-04:00

B. Answers it to a "Tee!" Regulations are not up for debate! Like our laws, if you don't like them work to get them changed! Until then, if you wear the uniform do the right thing or pay the consequences if it comes back to haunt you! Ha! - Top

Response by CSM Patrick Durr made Jun 4 at 2017 2:21 AM

2017-06-04T02:21:34-04:00

Is this really a question? Salute and move out.

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Jun 4 at 2017 11:25 PM

2017-06-04T23:25:38-04:00

This is a question that only an Army lieutenant could ask -- and only in today's snowflake officer corps.
Would you ask if a 2LT should salute another 2LT? Or if a General should salute another General?

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2017 3:45 PM

2017-06-10T15:45:25-04:00

Rank amongst Lieutenants is akin to virginity amongst prostitutes.

Response by CPT JoeandMarla Holbrook made Jun 12 at 2017 9:55 AM

2017-06-12T09:55:03-04:00

By the letter of regulations, yes, they should. When I was a 2LT and 1LT Mid 80's to early 90's, 2LT's normally did not salute 1LT's. However, if the 1LT was a unit commander, the, yes. 2LT's also did not call 1LT's Sir.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2017 10:39 AM

2017-06-15T10:39:56-04:00

Follow tge regs. Salute senior Officers when its prudent to do so. Simple.

Response by Capt Dwayne Conyers made Jun 15 at 2017 5:50 PM

2017-06-15T17:50:58-04:00

I and my fellow butter bar were at a training squadron on Goodfellow AFB and saluted our instructor, a prior enlisted 1LT. He barked at me, “Lieutenants DO NOT salute each other.”

Response by MSgt Fred Gottshalk made Jun 15 at 2017 8:28 PM

2017-06-15T20:28:25-04:00

Saluting is a common military courtesy to ALL ranks................. However it has been determined that saluting targets Senior people. I don't thing that saluting is a viable greeting anymore, even in the US, under todays' threats. I DO believe, and practice a simple spoken recognition of the senior that I may encounter. We must evolve to the current threats.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2017 7:20 PM

2017-06-18T19:20:14-04:00

As a 2LT I always saluted 1LTs but I didn't enforce it as a 1LT. I don't think it is necessary. The way I saw it was that we were both LTs. But there were those 1LTs that enforced it. The way I see it is if a 1LT enforces that to a 2LT then they have an issue with how important they think they are. I think a better question is should privates stand at ease for specialists?

Response by MSgt Louie Labadie made Jun 19 at 2017 10:47 PM

2017-06-19T22:47:16-04:00

The answer is YES, regardless of the rank structure. A salute as it has been correctly described is more about showing respect to a fellow warrior than it is about rank. Knights saluted each other before battle as a sign of respect between professional military. You may not respect the individual for whatever reason, BUT I believe you MUST respect the person that raised their hand and pledge the oath. In one of my last TDYs I went to Lackland AFB and walking towards the BX when a young basic trainee decided that the rank in my lapels looked like that of an officer. I returned the salute and stop the young troop and explained that my lapel rank was that of a SNCO and not an officer, but I did thank him for the respect.

Response by MSgt Brian Potvin made Jun 20 at 2017 4:11 AM

2017-06-20T04:11:06-04:00

This seems like an easy question to me. Yes, the junior person salutes the senior person.

Response by SP5 Rich Levesque made Jun 22 at 2017 10:40 AM

2017-06-22T10:40:14-04:00

In one word: Yes!

Response by CPT Brent Ferguson made Jun 22 at 2017 1:52 PM

2017-06-22T13:52:24-04:00

Should a first lieutenant salute a captain? Should have Captain salute a major? The answer to both of those questions are yes not to do so would be at risk of showing disrespect to a superior officer which is a crime under the uniform code of military Justice. This is why your first sergeant and a sergeant major will both salute a second lieutenant failure to do so not only sets a bad example but it is a crime.

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Jun 23 at 2017 7:05 PM

2017-06-23T19:05:19-04:00

Yes. If as an enlisted man, I have to salute my platoon leader, he should have to salute my Battery XO. If I were a sergeant in the morning PT formations and I have to salute my First Sergeant, a fellow E-7 filling in, then my butterbar should salute the silver bar.

Response by LCpl Steve Smith made Jun 24 at 2017 6:41 PM

2017-06-24T18:41:15-04:00

Short answer Sir is Yes. You are Officers and need to lead by example and that includes in military Protocols and Disciplines. It may seem like a small thing but it is still a break in military regs and your subordinates see it and that's where you start to have issues with lack of professionalism from them because they think they don't have to take Military Protocol and Standards seriously.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 28 at 2017 6:54 PM

2017-06-28T18:54:36-04:00

As a warrant officer I salute and I am saluted with each encounter of my fellow soldier, And I'm always proud to render the salute.

Response by SSG Alfonso Pagan made Jun 30 at 2017 10:12 AM

2017-06-30T10:12:54-04:00

yes

Response by MSG John Wear III made Jul 9 at 2017 10:59 PM

2017-07-09T22:59:46-04:00

Should a LTC salute a COL, is this not the same argument? Damn straight a 2LT should salute a 1LT.

Response by SSgt David Tedrow made Jul 10 at 2017 1:13 AM

2017-07-10T01:13:01-04:00

If you are going to go "by the book", then yes, salute. Most Lt's I knew never saluted each other. I have also seen Lt's and WO's not salute each other as well as 2nd Lt's that salute WO's out of respect for there length of service and experience. I guess if it really bothers you then do what makes you feel good.

Response by SFC Stephen Carden made Jul 10 at 2017 2:40 AM

2017-07-10T02:40:52-04:00

Eric, I can't believe this post is still going. It was old back when we had the first (and only?) RP "annual" convention in Raleigh!

Response by LTC John Wilson made Jul 13 at 2017 1:25 PM

2017-07-13T13:25:41-04:00

The Regulations say it all and it complied with it is orderly and meaningful.

Response by PO2 Richard Blakey made Jul 13 at 2017 7:40 PM

2017-07-13T19:40:12-04:00

first cover you ass at time in us mil.

Response by MSgt Arvin Stott made Jul 13 at 2017 10:18 PM

2017-07-13T22:18:15-04:00

Can't speak for the Army. In the USAF doesn't matter if you are a 2 Lt or a LT. 2 LT's initiate salute the salute to any officer of a higher rank....Period.

Or looking at from another angle as an officer would you ever accept an enlisted member not initiating the salute?

Response by CWO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2017 6:54 AM

2017-07-14T06:54:09-04:00

I was a Chief Warrant Officer 2 in the Marine Corps (2017), and would only salute field grade and above, with the exception of my company grade detachment commander. This was the generally accepted practice. I do know the LTs saluted the Captains, but I figured it was more of an earn your right time of situation. I once did have a 2ndLt stop me as I walked past him, and ask "Warrant Officer, aren't you supposed to salute Lieutenants." Admittedly, I grinned, chuckled, and walked away.
To answer this specific question. I would say that if you were in a commander type position above him, then he should render the salute. If not, then you all are company grade, junior officers, and maybe you shouldn't be so hung up on that 2nd/1st distinction. After all, isn't it just a matter of time, and not really any accomplishment that separates you.

Response by CPL David Markham made Jul 14 at 2017 9:07 AM

2017-07-14T09:07:09-04:00

To me it has always been a sign of respect, and I was always taught as a young boy to always show respect for many reasons this being one of many. I did have an officer personally instruct me on when, who and how to salute. In basic in 1966 on the way to make a phone call home, and these calls were rare so I was pretty excited. I was running towards phones and out of nowhere, dang, there was a 1LT. Seems you are not suppose to salute while running pass an officer. I didn't get to the phones for another 15 minutes, but I did get some extra military training and good short story to tell my children and Grandkids.

Response by SFC Bob Bennett made Jul 15 at 2017 6:27 PM

2017-07-15T18:27:23-04:00

Should? The regulation requires it since the 2LT is junior to the 1LT.

Response by SGM Gerald Fife made Jul 16 at 2017 11:39 AM

2017-07-16T11:39:20-04:00

Why not. I respect that the person is an officer for one thing and the salute, imho, is another way of saying "hello" to a fellow officer. The old saying, "if in doubt, salute" is always true. Common sense is also in play when saluting. And lastly, how long does it take to raise that arm, render the salute, and lower the arm? Two seconds? Not much from a lifetime.

Response by LtCol George Carlson made Jul 16 at 2017 4:30 PM

2017-07-16T16:30:40-04:00

Some have stated, but many have ignored the fact that two military individuals EXCHANGE salutes. Each is saluting the other. The only thing rank has to do with is who INITIATES the exchange. There is not anything wrong with two equals exchanging salutes (as long as they don't have to stop and check date of rank before doing so). A 2ndLt is just as distinct from a 1stLt as the 1stLt is from a Capt.

Response by MSG Robert Alphonse made Jul 18 at 2017 12:43 PM

2017-07-18T12:43:01-04:00

The first week I spent in Basic at Ft Bragg in 1968, some fool Pvt neglected to salute an LTC, so, for the next two weeks everyone in the BCT Bde. Was directed by the Bde. CD-R. To salute anyone of higher rank.

Response by SPC Melvin Morgan made Jul 18 at 2017 1:44 PM

2017-07-18T13:44:03-04:00

SALUTE ANY AND ALL HIGHER RANK MILITARY RESPECT TO RANK !!!!!!

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Jul 18 at 2017 2:24 PM

2017-07-18T14:24:38-04:00

Why even ask this inane question.. we know what the answer is... those of us that have been around even a few years
Know that answer.

Response by Maj Chris Clark made Jul 18 at 2017 4:44 PM

2017-07-18T16:44:45-04:00

As an officer of Marines and a 2ndLt, I only saluted a 1stLt if he was in command such as a battery commander or infantry company commander. When I was at Ft Sill, the administration company was a 1stLt. I saluted him when I encountered him, unless we were indoors.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2017 10:54 AM

2017-07-19T10:54:48-04:00

1LTs regularly take command of companies/detachments before they are promoted to CPT. If a PL refused to salute the Commander, I see a problem and as an NCO one that I would address. A 2LT should absolutely salute a 1LT, the same way a CPL should stand at parade rest when addressing a SGT. No wiggle room here.

Response by SPC Thomas Smith made Jul 20 at 2017 12:26 PM

2017-07-20T12:26:28-04:00

I find it hard to believe this is a discussion it is automatic that lower ranks of the other one it doesn't matter time in grade or not.

Response by SSG Jeffrey South made Jul 21 at 2017 6:33 PM

2017-07-21T18:33:42-04:00

I may have been a bad NCO, but I just loved finding an officer with hands full and sometimes go out of my way to salute and many times watch them scramble to salute back. But I agree, juniors should always salute a senior

Response by MSgt Karen Abramovitz made Jul 24 at 2017 7:55 PM

2017-07-24T19:55:18-04:00

If they are an officer and outrank you, then yes you salute them period.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2017 8:03 PM

2017-07-24T20:03:10-04:00

I guess this is an army thing..... 1 bar rule anyone.

Response by LTC Ronald Stephens made Jul 25 at 2017 7:33 PM

2017-07-25T19:33:47-04:00

My first TO&E assignment was to a battery whose CO was a 2Lt like me but had time in service out the wazoo and time in grade . You bet your A$$ I saluted him. He later became one of my best friends.

Response by Maj Robert McCombs made Aug 3 at 2017 1:13 AM

2017-08-03T01:13:48-04:00

Historically, the salute was a greeting. See it as tipping your hat to a lady, friend, or colleague. We in the military like to think it as a sign or respect among warriors. In other cultures (military), you bow. I had to learn that in Japan. Their officers bow to each other, we were expected to both bow and render a hand salute to their officers. Should a 2ndLt salute a 1stLt? Of course. Should a big deal be made of it? Of course NOT. But, to play devil's advocate, the salute very much is a sign of respect; is a hand salute given to a Medal of Honor recipient of ANY RANK? ALWAYS.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2017 11:17 AM

2017-08-04T11:17:39-04:00

Of course.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2017 11:18 AM

2017-08-04T11:18:27-04:00

Of course they should as specified.

Response by CPT Nick Bryan made Aug 4 at 2017 3:04 PM

2017-08-04T15:04:02-04:00

I had a Company Commander explain it perfectly, "there's no honor amongst Lieutenants..." If a 1LT is a leadership position (most likely Company Commander) and you as a 2LT are his direct subordinate then absolutely. But fellow Platoon Leaders or even XO and PLs or some staff monkey? No. Any 1LT (that's not a CO) that goes bezerk or calls out a 2LT for not saluting him is a turd with a complex.

Response by MSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2017 5:04 PM

2017-08-06T17:04:53-04:00

Should a LTC salute a COL? Should a COL salute a BG? The answer, and I can't believe it's even being questioned, is a resounding yes. These small concessions in respect, discipline and protocol are why we have so many issues with the rank and file in today's military.

Response by SSgt J McCurdy made Aug 8 at 2017 11:58 AM

2017-08-08T11:58:05-04:00

YES

Response by SSgt Bruce Probert made Aug 10 at 2017 2:42 AM

2017-08-10T02:42:34-04:00

The salute is a gesture of respect and courtesy initiated by the junior It is returned as such a failure to return a proper salute is unacceptable. That should make it clear to all.

Response by PO1 Dave Dextradeur made Aug 10 at 2017 2:38 PM

2017-08-10T14:38:28-04:00

More importantly, should a GOLD BAR IDIOT SALUTE A SILVER BAR IDIOT?

Response by CPT Randy Zales made Aug 11 at 2017 5:34 PM

2017-08-11T17:34:17-04:00

In the 90’s, we considered an LT an LT unless they were in command or acting commander. I found the collegial relationship between LT's in the Battalions I served to be crucial to our mission success and frankly, our sanity. However, there is always one douche in the canoe. When I was in 1-506th, 2ID on the DMZ we had this new 1LT who one morning after I had coffee with the 1SG, asked me to stop by his office. As I walked into his office, he called me to attention and told me from this day forward I was to salute and address him as 1LT X or Sir. I burst out laughing so hard he ranged walked right out of his office. #FBF #LPA

Response by SGT Robert Farrell made Aug 17 at 2017 4:09 PM

2017-08-17T16:09:57-04:00

so-you are saying a 1 star general is equal to a 4 or 5 star general? a general is a general? no matter how many stars they have?

Response by CPT Larry Hudson made Aug 17 at 2017 6:40 PM

2017-08-17T18:40:19-04:00

You have answered the question. AR 600-25. Military protocols require proper recognition. After all, a 1st LT was where you were. He has worked hard to be promoted and have OERs that reflect he is qualified to be of higher rank. In the field, officers below company commander generally does not require a salute. To do so marks you as a sniper target.
Common sense is required here.

Response by SFC Larry DeFord made Aug 17 at 2017 11:48 PM

2017-08-17T23:48:32-04:00

Technically speaking, a first lieutenant outranks a second. So it depends on the command situation.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2017 1:08 PM

2017-08-20T13:08:44-04:00

I was told once that "rank among Lts is like virtue among hookers; it doesn't exist."

Response by SSG Jimmy Cernich made Aug 20 at 2017 4:52 PM

2017-08-20T16:52:53-04:00

Why is this even a question?Salute show some respect!Tolerance in the military is at an all time low.I'm disgusted with what some of things I hear that happen in garrison,training,and God don't let mention the the stuff and the way soldiers act toward each other in war.

Response by SFC Antonio Nieto made Aug 20 at 2017 5:49 PM

2017-08-20T17:49:37-04:00

Of course should a LTC salute a COL you are not making any sense

Response by SGT Greg Gold made Aug 20 at 2017 8:49 PM

2017-08-20T20:49:34-04:00

Why is this even a question? You salute a comissioned or appointed officer who outranks you. That's how it works.

Response by SP5 Norman McGill made Aug 21 at 2017 12:35 PM

2017-08-21T12:35:58-04:00

The inferior rank always salutes the superior rank except enlisted ranks.. That includes you Lieutenants too.

Response by CPO Zack Lindsey made Aug 25 at 2017 2:34 PM

2017-08-25T14:34:37-04:00

My two cents that is like asking should E-3 listen to a E-4 or any rank just one step up, now back to the salute you are not saluting the man you are saluting the rank and the privilege that goes with it, so yes I say yes you do cause what'hapans when some E-1 see him or not saluteing and they think ho it is cause it is just cause it is just one step ence back to where I frist started my response.

Response by CW5 Randall Hirsch made Aug 26 at 2017 9:10 PM

2017-08-26T21:10:25-04:00

My thoughts on this is you are either a professional or you are not. One thing an officer needs to remember is that you have seniors and those junior to you watching what you do. So you need to act professional and be an example and a mentor to others.

Response by PO1 Charles Babcock made Aug 29 at 2017 2:44 AM

2017-08-29T02:44:46-04:00

yes, the salute is a mark of respect for the senior rank if nothing else, Altho back in the '80's when I was in the Navy, MY salute was more to the man than the rank. Very few officers who qualify in submarines, are not deserving of a salute on their own merit.

Response by COL Mark Gerner made Aug 29 at 2017 9:09 AM

2017-08-29T09:09:39-04:00

Sign of respect for the rank, not for the person, not for the particular position. Not uncommon though that seniors who know the subordinate salute first, signaling their good memory of the soldier. Should one choose to overlook the rule, just remember that idea is that it is not a private matter only, it is their precisely for the public image it conveys. So not saluting communicates "selective compliance," something that in time corrodes any military organization.

Response by 2ndLt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2017 12:21 PM

2017-08-29T12:21:11-04:00

I wouldn't be opposed to it but in the Marines we're tought that 2ndLts, 1stLts, and WOs are part of the one bar club, making them peers and do not have to call eachother sir or salute.

Response by Cpl Ryan Romero made Aug 31 at 2017 9:28 AM

2017-08-31T09:28:23-04:00

How about this... Stop being such an entitled whiney bitch and learn your job first. You are an O2 which means you know just enough to get people killed. Don't be "That Guy". You will never get any respect by demanding it. You still have to earn it. Learn this because it will follow you in your transition to civilian.

Response by 1stSgt Mack Housman made Aug 31 at 2017 10:19 AM

2017-08-31T10:19:07-04:00

Yes

Response by CPL Dave Hoover made Aug 31 at 2017 10:39 AM

2017-08-31T10:39:28-04:00

1LT out ranks a 2LT. SALUTE, PERIOD.

Response by SGT Christopher Lachcik made Aug 31 at 2017 3:12 PM

2017-08-31T15:12:16-04:00

The real question is: should a private salute another private?????

Response by SPC Martin Meyer made Sep 3 at 2017 11:30 AM

2017-09-03T11:30:47-04:00

Saluting has nothing to do with respect for the person; you are saluting the rank.

Response by SFC Ron Gitzendanner made Sep 9 at 2017 12:15 AM

2017-09-09T00:15:17-04:00

This is a very interesting question, and I enjoyed reading the dozens and dozens of responses. In all my 28 years years in the service, I never really gave this a thought. I was enlisted and saluted ALL officers, and could care less what officers did to each other, that was THEIR business, except once in a while I did wonder if Generals really did salute each other. Back in my day, we were told we only had to salute Warrant Officer's once a day, no matter how many times you approached him....and a Warrant Officer was addressed as "Mister". One last thing, I read a reference to where a jr NCO would be at parade rest when first addressing a sr NCO....never heard this before, interesting.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2017 4:03 PM

2017-09-09T16:03:26-04:00

Yes every rank should be respected accordingly regardless of the person behind the rank.

Response by SGT Matthew Reid made Sep 9 at 2017 9:31 PM

2017-09-09T21:31:54-04:00

Are you serious!?

Response by MSgt Julio Rodriguez made Sep 12 at 2017 11:21 AM

2017-09-12T11:21:30-04:00

As an Air Force retired MSgt, saluting is a tradition that is honorable between the ranks. The erosion begins by fraternization...I did not hang out with those who had position over me, and was quick to correct subordinates if I heard them call an officer by first name! "As long as you are around me, an officer is called sir and you will salute them!" I earned the title given to me by my subordinates "PRIC" AND that simply meant Puerto Rican in charge! I did not invent the military but I swore to obey those appointed over me according to the oath that EVERYONE takes! Nobody in his right mind will disrespect any officer in front of me! Call me hardcore...I call it discipline. The military is not a social experiment...disciplined is its design!

Response by SSG Brian G. made Sep 19 at 2017 5:26 PM

2017-09-19T17:26:45-04:00

It's common military courtesy. Enlisted salate any officer/Warrant Officer. The lower rank WO and Officer support higher ranks. IE WO 1 salutes WO2,3,4; O1 salutes o2, o3- on up.

Response by SPC William Smith made Sep 21 at 2017 3:42 PM

2017-09-21T15:42:34-04:00

Yes, lead by example. I respected my senior NCO's especially "Top" more than I did most officers. Officers seemed to want to put too much distance between themselves and the rest of us.

Response by PFC Abelino Ruiz made Sep 22 at 2017 12:46 PM

2017-09-22T12:46:15-04:00

Honor and respond, Salute one another..

Response by SPC David Elzinga made Sep 24 at 2017 7:36 PM

2017-09-24T19:36:02-04:00

Why shouldn’t they, the 1st Lt does out rank the 2nd Lt

Response by SSgt Thomas Sharp made Sep 26 at 2017 5:27 PM

2017-09-26T17:27:28-04:00

Is a Colonel a Colonel? If a LT is a LT, then do away with the 1st and 2nd then. Until then, you salute a higher ranking officer.

Response by PO2 David Allender made Sep 28 at 2017 6:32 AM

2017-09-28T06:32:45-04:00

I was in the service in the sixties. I am not surewhat changes have been made, but in the sixties, the junior officer always saluted the senior officer.

Response by CPT Lorenzo Lama made Sep 28 at 2017 9:36 AM

2017-09-28T09:36:51-04:00

As I was told when I was a young 2LT by my XO who was a 1st Lt. Lt's don't salute other Lt's, we are all bastards.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2017 9:41 AM

2017-09-28T09:41:55-04:00

So, there are two answers to your question.

Technically, yes a 2LT is junior to the 1LT and "should" be saluting them.

That being said, there is an unwritten rule where 2LT's don't salute their fellow 1LT's.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Oct 3 at 2017 3:18 AM

2017-10-03T03:18:19-04:00

This is like asking if a Major General should salute a Leuitenant General. Of course he better. The senior general earned those three stars and the respect and resposibilty that goes with the rank. So a 2nd Lt. better salute the 1st Lt. or face the wrath of his senior and squadron commander.

Response by SSgt Andre Agravar made Oct 4 at 2017 2:23 PM

2017-10-04T14:23:01-04:00

As a Marine SNCO, When I saluted an officer I was saluting my Corps. What we ALL represent. A cohesive synchronized machine relentlessly working towards collectively accomplishing whatever was deemed our "objective." I never cared whether I liked, disliked or even knew the man with the shiny fancy sparkly things on his collar. I didn't care if he was a hardened warrior of 20 years or a punk kid of 20 weeks. I trusted in my Marine Corps. I trusted they would conduct due diligence in choosing who was qualified to make decisions of life and death over others and I would trust in their judgement. I knew that for our "machine" to run properly each piece had to execute its role impeccably without hesitation, bias, or prejudice.

Response by Capt Dennis Jump made Oct 4 at 2017 5:44 PM

2017-10-04T17:44:53-04:00

In the Air Force (1971-1975), there was more saluting happening at OTS than I ever saw anywhere else. As it was explained to us, almost a LT, that as 2nd LT, we were going to do as much saluting as a General - saluting nearly everyone who came along.
Saluting at OTS became so mechanical that we were instructed (told) to add a verbal greeting to the salute. So, when walking around the area in small groups, we would greet each other with "Verbal Greeting" and respond to the greeting with "Audible Reply"

Response by SrA Vern Cox made Oct 5 at 2017 3:36 PM

2017-10-05T15:36:28-04:00

I would until a permanent rapport is established between familiar comrades. Always to one on the street.

Response by MSgt Thomas Mason made Oct 7 at 2017 10:39 AM

2017-10-07T10:39:52-04:00

The old way, is there a new one? Enlisted salute all officers at the appropriate time and place. Officers junior in rank salute all superior grade officers. 2nd Lt. salute 1st Lt., period. The salute is rendered in recognition of the military rank, not who the officer is personally. Medal of Honor are saluted by all military personnel, regardless of the MOH rank, this is not always done - but it is tradition. While engaged in combat operations or when an officer may be targeted - no salutes are rendered to protect the leader from becoming a special target. At one time the warrant officer was not clearly defined, officer or elevated enlisted? To me, they've always been an officer - I salute. Some of the very best troops in the military are WO! The ones I have known have been experts in their field - with guts!

Response by Col Randy Hagan made Oct 8 at 2017 11:20 AM

2017-10-08T11:20:56-04:00

Of course. The rank difference between an O1 and an O2 is precisely the same as between an O7 and an O8. Do you seriously think a BG would NOT render a salute to an MG?

Response by SSgt Eric Owens made Oct 8 at 2017 6:07 PM

2017-10-08T18:07:46-04:00

The fact that anyone would question this at all is a problem. Since when does anyone on active duty not show respect for another in uniform? It shouldn't matter what your rank is or if you're enlisted or officer. It's a sign of respect. Simple as that. What we are lacking in today's Snowflake Military is good ole fashioned "old school" military discipline. I miss the military. I miss wearing the uniform and saluting. It was fun. What's the problem?

Response by Capt Karlos Nordinsifeller made Oct 8 at 2017 9:00 PM

2017-10-08T21:00:44-04:00

Yes. Also in the armed forces colonels salute generals, and are also saluted by Lt Colonels.

Response by LCpl Donald Faucett made Oct 8 at 2017 9:01 PM

2017-10-08T21:01:51-04:00

If wear brass, somebody is eyeballing and you don't even get a kiss. To set a good example 2nd Lt. Should render a proper greeting: "Sir, good morning, Sir. A half hearted return salute discredits you both.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2017 9:20 PM

2017-10-09T21:20:23-04:00

It's sad that this even needs to be asked. Of course they should. That's like asking if a 1SG should salute a 2LT.

Response by LtCol Matthew Rajkovich made Oct 11 at 2017 7:54 AM

2017-10-11T07:54:00-04:00

I'm finding it hard to believe that s is really a topic. .... Moving on.

Response by Capt Rob Carty made Oct 13 at 2017 7:01 AM

2017-10-13T07:01:02-04:00

Geez, maybe this is a generational thing? Yes, the two lieutenants should salute each other. It's the second lieutenant's obligation to initiate the salute to the higher-ranking officer. The end.

Response by MGySgt Jerry Suarez made Oct 14 at 2017 10:39 AM

2017-10-14T10:39:26-04:00

If the officer is Jr he salutes PERIOD! If that doesn't happen then the Sr officer should put the Jr officer in check...if this is happening I submit this to you "2 things people do.. what they know and/or what you let them" so in some instances the Jr officer knows what to do they are just being allowed to do the wrong thing

Response by SPC Christopher Jackson made Oct 15 at 2017 2:07 AM

2017-10-15T02:07:22-04:00

The history of the salute goes back to the days of the knights. They would raise their visor to show they are friendly. That's how the salute was brought into the US Army for sure. But, it is a military courtesy to salute a higher ranking officer. NCO's will spit napalm on you because they worked for a living. But salutes came from the days of knights to know each other were friendly

Response by SSG Bill Cooke made Oct 15 at 2017 8:41 PM

2017-10-15T20:41:06-04:00

The lower rank salutes the upper rand in the commissioner officer ranks. The upper rank returns the salute and the drops the salute then the lower ranks drops the salute. Enlisted do not salute other enlisted but do salute all Warrant and Commissioned officers.

Response by CPT Dion Francis made Oct 16 at 2017 9:37 AM

2017-10-16T09:37:11-04:00

I have a difficult time remembering. LOL There were some 1LT(P) that I think deserved a salute at all times. I'm relatively certain that I did not salute 1LTs that were at the officer basic course in my same class. I think common sense would advise that although regulation dictates one thing, situational reality dictates another. For instance, do you salute while in the combat zone. I know I would pass there. LOL

Response by Maj Mike Sciales made Oct 17 at 2017 6:14 PM

2017-10-17T18:14:04-04:00

Salute and be saluted. Think about the word. We salute people who do exceptional things, we hold them in esteem. As an enlisted guy and SP working a busy gate i'd reckoned I deliver a couple of hundred thousand salutes and I didn't mind -- I was welcoming a comrade, a person worthy of respect and they did the same to me. When civilians would ask I'd always say "It's a military thing, you wouldn't understand."

Enjoy your life and the friendship of comrades.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2017 1:05 PM

2017-10-19T13:05:58-04:00

unless they are your commander....no

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2017 1:06 PM

2017-10-19T13:06:39-04:00

unless a 1lt is your commander no

Response by LT Terry Lober made Oct 28 at 2017 9:43 AM

2017-10-28T09:43:32-04:00

As a Navy Ensign, I saluted anything with gold braid. When I came before a LT (jg) there was no question in my mind, I OWED THAT OFFICER MY SALUTE. And I was proud to render him the best salute I could .I always looked upon the act of saluting anyone senior to me,or returning a salute from any enlisted man, as an honor. It was an honor to salute anyone, or to return a salute from any enlisted man or women.
I was proud of that single gold strip on my uniform sleeve, and you would have had to break my arm to prevent me from saluting anyone higher in rank than me, the lowly 0-1.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Oct 28 at 2017 7:52 PM

2017-10-28T19:52:56-04:00

Somebody's going to poke an eye out

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Oct 28 at 2017 7:58 PM

2017-10-28T19:58:01-04:00

Uh, yeah...I always did, obviously, trustmme, major big time, honest....

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Oct 28 at 2017 8:01 PM

2017-10-28T20:01:55-04:00

Just a thought, I had an analogous thing happen to me the day I finished USAF OTS at Lackland, I'd been on the main part, and A clearly very senior CMSgt did so with me, I recall he jas very overt whitewalls in a crewcut, he'd clearly been around long before I was even a gleam in my parents eyes, so trust me, yeah, major big time definite, I assure you...I knew many other new 2nd Lts where I was, after I made 1st Lt, and they always did also, we also had numerous from other svcs, as well as allied countries, so yeah, most definitely, I assure you, honest....

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Oct 29 at 2017 6:47 AM

2017-10-29T06:47:58-04:00

Yes. The 1st Lt. is the 2nd Lt's superior.

Response by MSgt Mayo Sifford made Oct 30 at 2017 5:28 PM

2017-10-30T17:28:41-04:00

1. 1st outranks 2nd and is "entitled" to a salute.
2. Should a WO-5 salute a 2nd lieutenant?
3. A salute is a courteous greeting between military personnel. A gesture of respect.
4. If you begrudge so honored a gesture, perhaps you chose the wrong profession.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Nov 2 at 2017 3:35 PM

2017-11-02T15:35:25-04:00

Sp4 Byron Skinner, This is nothing more then officers pissing on each others shoes. It don't mean nottin'. Looking back I can't remember the Lt's saluting each other in the Troop area or in the field, or call a senior Lt. Sir. They usual used first names. We had a Troop Commander who was into regulations and the formalities of the Army and he was always saluted but the salute was often accompanied by a smirk. Fifty years after service the former officers are put out she their EM's that served under them still call them Sir.

Response by SSG Billie Dalton made Nov 4 at 2017 11:06 AM

2017-11-04T11:06:02-04:00

Yes

Response by LTC Michael Keenan made Nov 4 at 2017 8:07 PM

2017-11-04T20:07:40-04:00

You are saluting and respecting the rank of the person. You may think he/she is a genuine POS as a person, but that changes nothing. He/she has the rank above you and the authority and responsibility that goes with it.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2017 2:26 PM

2017-11-05T14:26:59-05:00

If a 2/LT will not salute a 1/LT how can we expect enlisted personel and NCOs to salute? Officers need to lead from the front and fully comply to the traditions of the service. There is no excuse to not do so. Everyone also needs to salute an MOH recipient irrespective of their grade. Traditions of the service must be followed to their fullest, otherwise we are just a mob.

Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Nov 5 at 2017 8:55 PM

2017-11-05T20:55:41-05:00

I was taught that there is a brotherhood of lieutenants and that saluting is not required. That said, I often did, especially if it was someone I respected.

Response by Cpl Jim Tubridy made Nov 13 at 2017 2:50 AM

2017-11-13T02:50:58-05:00

In what universe does a junior officer or enlisted NOT salute a superior officer?

Response by SP5 Lori Pong made Nov 13 at 2017 9:25 AM

2017-11-13T09:25:44-05:00

Junior should always salute Senior. It is called respect. I can understand some hesitating. As an E2 in AIT I had more time in service then the company XO. There may be only a few months difference in their time in service or in some cases lots of education difference. Doctors and Lawyers with 6-8 years of college and advanced education started coming in the Army as 1LTs in 82 (this way they didn't have to wait 4 or more years to get a promotion). There is a reason one outranks the other. Again, it's called respect.

Response by MAJ Robin Nix made Nov 14 at 2017 2:27 PM

2017-11-14T14:27:58-05:00

When I was a 2LT I saluted a 1LT in our company. He responded with “there is no honor among thieves and no rank between lieutenants!”

Response by PO3 John Priest made Nov 16 at 2017 9:06 AM

2017-11-16T09:06:12-05:00

In simplest form, Yes. it's a courtesy and in the regulations.

Response by SFC Eric Williams made Nov 16 at 2017 9:56 AM

2017-11-16T09:56:51-05:00

Come on..... is the 1LT the Senior officer? YYYYYYEEEEESSSSS......lol.

Response by CPL Mike Prendergast made Nov 16 at 2017 2:09 PM

2017-11-16T14:09:53-05:00

Should a Lt. Col. salute a Col.? Should a Rear Adm (lower) salute a Rear Adm. (upper)? Where does the argument stop? Inane premise.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Nov 27 at 2017 2:10 AM

2017-11-27T02:10:52-05:00

Seriously? Why ask such an inane question? It’s right there in the regulations of every Service branch.
It’s respect for the rank worn, not the individual. You might despise him or her personally but you are saluting that Rank
Not them as an individual.

Response by SFC David Clark made Nov 30 at 2017 11:51 AM

2017-11-30T11:51:45-05:00

I served in the United States Army for 20 years. The junior ranking soldier always saluted the senior ranking officer. That’s the way it was and that’s the way it should always be.

Response by SSG Randolph Watkins made Dec 1 at 2017 11:43 PM

2017-12-01T23:43:31-05:00

Salutes are a sign of mutual respect. When I was in the navy, I was standing next to the captain. He looked over the bridge rail and saw an ensign on the quarterdeck make a sailor who had his arms full, put down his load and salute the officer fifty times. The ensign never returned any of the salutes. The captain, an O-6, had me go down and get both the ensign and the sailor. When the got to the bridge, the captain ordered the ensign to properly return the sailor's salute. After the sailor saluted the ensign fifty times more, and the ensign returned all fifty, the captain dismissed the sailor and took the ensign aside and counseled him on the importance of salutes as a form of mutual respect, military tradition, etc. Ensign learned a lesson, but the poor sailor wound up with a sore arm.

Response by Cpl Joseph Zach made Dec 2 at 2017 3:49 AM

2017-12-02T03:49:40-05:00

in tyhe Corps when I was in, you had better believe that an officer with a butter DID salute first, the officer with one silver bar. or ALL Hell would break loose. I persoonally saw, with my own eyes 2 maybe three occasions when that didn't happen. in on such event, the 'junior' LT, [butter bar] had The Medal. the 1st Lt saluted that 2ndLt first and sustained it until the 2nd Lt brought his hand down first.

2nd event was a former enlisted, was made into a WO then after awhile into an officer. he had lots of personal decorations, both Korea and Vietnam. yet was only a 2nd LT. an USMC Cpt did salute him first and again, held it until the 2Lt brought his hand down to his side first.

can't remember if there was a number three or not. right now, in real time, I simply cannot recall with any degree of certainty.

Response by PO3 J.W. Nelson made Dec 2 at 2017 10:09 AM

2017-12-02T10:09:08-05:00

Rank does have it's privileges and yes the junior ranked officer should always salute the senior officer, regardless of rank !

Response by TSgt Wayne Atchison made Dec 2 at 2017 1:52 PM

2017-12-02T13:52:29-05:00

I remember a time I was walking onto the flight line, I was an E-2, (We were told not to salute officers on the flight-line) a staff car was driving by. We were on the flight line, so, we didn't salute. This Col. had a line number for general, stopped, got out of his car and proceed to chew us out. We explained that we were told not to salute officers on the flight-line. He said "I'm in my staff car with the flag flying, you salute! "We popped him a salute, said were sorry and went on our way. He was displaying a star on his vehicles flag, not a bird. Was he wrong?

Response by LTC Larry Davis made Dec 8 at 2017 5:45 PM

2017-12-08T17:45:34-05:00

There are several responses here with which I agree, and having faced the question myself while a 2LT, this one strikes home. The regulation requires that the junior render honors to (salute) the senior; however, tradition holds that salutes between lieutenants are rendered based on position of authority. For example, if the 1LT occupies a command position, such as Company CDR, he is due the salute. The same might hold true if the 1LT is serving as Paymaster or similar appointed authority. Otherwise, lieutenants generally do not exchange salutes. This was the practice throughout my time as a lieutenant, and I observed the tradition continuing as I moved up the ladder.

However there was that one time... In this particular situation, I was the Brigade Duty Officer for the night (Duty Daddy). My rank - 2LT (quite senior 2LT, but still a butter bar). During rounds, I visited each battalion, where most of the Duty Officers also were 2LT. However, one of the Battalion Duty Officers was a 1LT. Although our meeting and conversation had been cordial and informal, as I departed, he demanded that I render a salute. In my duty capacity, I "outranked" him, but his demand was unalterable. I saluted, but only cursory. He filed a formal complaint with the Bde CDR and my Company Cdr, both of whom dismissed the complaint. I had not met him previously, and had never encountered such a requirement anywhere on post, but guidance from both commanders was that by regulation he was technically correct. I also learned from them that he had a reputation for being "by the book," but that he applied "the book" when he wanted to pull a power play. Consequently, he was not looked upon favorably by any officer or NCO in his battalion or within the brigade. My CO informed me several weeks late that the LT had finally gone too far, and the Bde CDR himself had given an adverse OER, effectively ending his career. He finally got a real taste of "by the book."

My experience here may not directly address the question, but I think it does speak to the intent - render a salute when the situation clearly requires it, or when in doubt. Otherwise, an LT is an LT.

Response by GySgt David Andrews made Dec 9 at 2017 10:57 AM

2017-12-09T10:57:44-05:00

You are saluting the rank not the man. Even if a person does not like the other it is his obligation and requirement of regulation to render a salute or return a salute. I use to tell my Men that yes sometimes you don’t want to but look at it this way. You are getting the opportunity to make an officer return that salute even if he doesn’t want to. If his arms are full and he has his keys in hand trying to open his vehicle he is required to return a salute to you. Make him smile and realize you got him. It’s a time honored recognition dating back to the Roman days of warriors.

Response by Sgt Don Eichorn made Dec 11 at 2017 10:14 AM

2017-12-11T10:14:44-05:00

The 2LT are required by regulations to render a salute to all those who out rank him/her.

Response by SFC Kina Gyan made Dec 20 at 2017 4:29 PM

2017-12-20T16:29:57-05:00

this is a trick question, right?..

Response by Sgt John Whitner made Dec 21 at 2017 4:48 PM

2017-12-21T16:48:48-05:00

It is proper and should be done, just my opinion

Response by SSG John Doub made Dec 24 at 2017 5:25 PM

2017-12-24T17:25:09-05:00

The salute in the military is based upon rank and is for soldiers. With respect to the salute being between "warriors" as presented by LTC Shewbert, has nothing to do with soldiering and the professional military. Not all soldiers are warriors and not all warriors are soldiers. There are many historical points to reflect upon saluting. Generally seen done with the right hand, it was done to show the hand was empty and without malice it was open and not clenched. The military has the salute for respect of rank and position; not the person. Warriors share what they share between comrades and enemies as they deem worthy. IMHO

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2017 5:27 PM

2017-12-24T17:27:52-05:00

If you're asking the question, I think you know the answer.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2017 2:30 PM

2017-12-25T14:30:24-05:00

Under formal circumstances, yes. Otherwise no.

Response by A1C William Mccaskey made Dec 27 at 2017 3:11 PM

2017-12-27T15:11:55-05:00

yes

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 1:16 AM

2017-12-29T01:16:19-05:00

Let's not get into all this "I feel this way or I feel that way" BS.....
the FACT of the matter is this.....
a First Lieutenant outranks a Second Lieutenant so YES you salute him.
If you lower your standards.... and some new recruit see this....
he'll start to wonder why he has to salute "anyone".

Response by PO1 Bradly Mueller made Jan 2 at 2018 11:50 AM

2018-01-02T11:50:46-05:00

In the Navy/Marine Corps team we salute all officers period. No matter if they are senior or junior, though the junior should initiate it when possible. Also all salutes are required to be returned, I never understood some peoples issues with the saluting thing, it is a sign of respect maybe not to the individual but the their position within the overall organization.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2018 3:46 PM

2018-01-02T15:46:23-05:00

Absolutely not! The level of mentorship happening between 1LT's to 2LT's is beyond priceless, and is essential to development as a successful Commissioned Officer. The Army as a culture is still very new 2LTs. They need to have completely open, informal, and honest relationships among themselves (FIRST), heavy personal mentorship from 1LT's (SECOND), and continuously coaching from Company Commanders (THIRD). That is considering we are still in the business of making "American Storm Troopers". Let the LT Mafia live...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2018 2:50 PM

2018-01-03T14:50:44-05:00

Having grown up around military customs, and recently transferred to IRR as a result of frustration for the Snowflake and relaxed atmosphere of the JOB and Life we signed up for, I get even more annoyed that a topic like this even comes up. Salute those who hold a higher rank. They worked for it either by battle tested experience or nose in the book. The ranking system is set up the way it is and is not to be questioned unless illegal or unethical. You do PT test raise that right hand and do it. Don't be a D-bag and question these traditions.

Response by MGySgt Christian MacMillan made Jan 6 at 2018 6:50 AM

2018-01-06T06:50:33-05:00

1) Is a 1st LT senior to a 2nd LT? Yes. 2) Should the 2nd LT salute the 1st LT? See question #1.

Response by SFC James William Bolt [ 40 Yards ] made Jan 6 at 2018 1:53 PM

2018-01-06T13:53:21-05:00

Sir pardon this old HTNCO French my answer is HELL YES . When I first meet this LT or other officer I salute the uniform he wearing not that person . They has to earn my respect with their action in his performance in the command .From me if you hang that uniform on a fence post I will salute it because it is due all the respect because of others that have worn it with HORNOR. Like my old battery commander Anthony F, -[TONY] Stahelski whom had the personal stature to run his unit as he saw fit with the SOP of the command. Sign 40 yards

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2018 10:31 PM

2018-01-07T22:31:05-05:00

IMO, The salute is at the very foundation of what seapates the GI world from the civilian world "The Military Salute" is so much more than "The civilian Hand Wave."

* "The Civilian Hand Wave" is saying "HI," and it doesn’t show honor, respect or a relationship.
* "The Military Salute" is saying I honor and respect you as brother in arms and I'm proud to serve with you.

At least that's the way "This Old Soldier" sees It.

Response by SGT(P) Le'a K Billingsley made Jan 9 at 2018 2:08 PM

2018-01-09T14:08:52-05:00

Yes!!

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Jan 11 at 2018 3:44 AM

2018-01-11T03:44:35-05:00

Gee... that’s a given... eh?

Response by MAJ Jean Clark made Jan 11 at 2018 6:05 PM

2018-01-11T18:05:20-05:00

While enlisted and after commissioning on active duty and in the reserve and guard in both the AF and Army, "there is no rank among lieutenants" was the word. However, I watched as 2 LT in a junior position such as PLT LDR would salute a Commander even if the Commander was a 2LT, so what ever the flavor is on your installation. Beware, the AR 600-25 can be wailed at any moment by junior or senior soldiers. If you are junior then render the honor unless otherwise told by competent authority.

Response by PVT Patty Mike Figueras made Jan 11 at 2018 8:36 PM

2018-01-11T20:36:58-05:00

I salute all brass. When I was in.

Response by PVT Patty Mike Figueras made Jan 11 at 2018 8:38 PM

2018-01-11T20:38:04-05:00

I especially salute the mess cook because he makes my meals, no matter what rank. Lol

Response by SrA Nicole Dedick made Jan 16 at 2018 3:22 AM

2018-01-16T03:22:20-05:00

If someone outranks you, you salute them. That’s the basic principle we were always taught.

Response by MAJ George H Cox made Jan 20 at 2018 11:40 AM

2018-01-20T11:40:29-05:00

Yes, a 2LT should salute a 1LT, just as a LTC should salute a COL.

Response by Cpl Ward Perry made Jan 20 at 2018 3:02 PM

2018-01-20T15:02:43-05:00

I think any officer rates a salute. Just out of respect for his rank. There's a few 2lt I didn't think rated a salute, but that's not ho

Response by SFC Domingo M. made Jan 27 at 2018 9:06 PM

2018-01-27T21:06:46-05:00

Great response COL Simone. Professionalism is the point.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Jan 28 at 2018 4:46 AM

2018-01-28T04:46:08-05:00

2nd Lt does not out rank a 1st Lt. 2nd Lt will salute the 1st Lt, everytime.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2018 3:10 AM

2018-01-29T03:10:40-05:00

This is the gift that keeps on giving.

Response by LTC Thomas Tennant made Jan 29 at 2018 12:39 PM

2018-01-29T12:39:58-05:00

Nope, rank among lieutenants is like chastity in a whore house....there isn't any. The only time that a salute is given is when the 1LT is the 2LT's company commander and that is only because the 2LT is showing respect for the position.

Response by LTC John Bush made Feb 2 at 2018 8:07 PM

2018-02-02T20:07:40-05:00

Yes I always did, why not? You can salute your equals too it is a greeting and a privilege

Response by Maj Robert Dudley made Feb 4 at 2018 5:23 PM

2018-02-04T17:23:42-05:00

Idk, seems like a dumb question to me. Of course, a 2Lt should salute a 1Lt.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 7:21 AM

2018-02-05T07:21:36-05:00

I agree. I am Navy, so forgive the different ranks here, but as a LTJG (O-2), I saluted a LT (O-3) until the day I put the rank on myself. That's not only regulation, but the kind of example of military bearing and respect we want to set for our junior enlisted personnel.

Response by LCDR Rich Bishop made Feb 8 at 2018 7:58 AM

2018-02-08T07:58:52-05:00

Of course you salute every person senior to officer, never compromise honor and respect. The best advise I have for you, is to salute everyone! You will never be wrong however if you don't salute, why would you provide an opportunity for a senior officer to correct you (Which shows a lack of discipline, honor and tradition) and what if others see this? Could damage your reputation.

Response by CPT Kenneth Burrows made Feb 13 at 2018 1:35 PM

2018-02-13T13:35:20-05:00

I was once a Butter Bar and I did salute all Officers. Respect!

Response by COL Dan Pipes made Feb 20 at 2018 5:58 PM

2018-02-20T17:58:55-05:00

Nope. never. No honor among whores or thieves, as well. C'mon.. .this is stupid, petty, and a result of too many peacetime HQ soldiers who dont get what it meant to commit to a profession of arms. I only have 31 years in the military, multiple deployments, active and guard time, so my opinions can only cover from 1987 to the present. Not sure where we are going, but if this is the most serious question that needs discussion, I am buying more ammo.

Response by LTC Wayne Dandridge made Mar 1 at 2018 12:06 PM

2018-03-01T12:06:12-05:00

Yes.

Response by SGT James Clark made Mar 1 at 2018 12:07 PM

2018-03-01T12:07:06-05:00

Yes they should.

Response by SGT Rich Levesque made Mar 1 at 2018 2:24 PM

2018-03-01T14:24:21-05:00

In one word, YES!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2018 11:51 PM

2018-03-01T23:51:37-05:00

Yes, Sir.

Response by SPC Martin Meyer made Mar 5 at 2018 3:58 PM

2018-03-05T15:58:56-05:00

Absolutely, as Colonel Winters from Easy Company Band of Brother's Fame once stated it is respect for the rank not the individual. It is all about discipline and respect for rank.

Response by SSG Eugene C Reynolds Jr made Mar 20 at 2018 5:36 PM

2018-03-20T17:36:08-04:00

I Agree a 2LT should salute a 1 Lt

Response by Sgt Daniel J. Daly made Mar 22 at 2018 3:12 AM

2018-03-22T03:12:32-04:00

The 1st Lt is senior to the 2D Lt. So therefore he must render a salute. Now probably during normal work this is not done, but when a 1st.Lt is in command of a company and a 2D Lt. is one of the platoon leaders and those officers meet in the company area the 2D Lt. Will render a salute.

Response by SPC Charles Keiser made Mar 24 at 2018 5:16 PM

2018-03-24T17:16:54-04:00

How did you pass through basic training not knowing the answer to that question ?

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Mar 25 at 2018 12:59 PM

2018-03-25T12:59:28-04:00

The Junior salutes and the Senior Returns it Nothings changed.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2018 4:27 PM

2018-03-25T16:27:48-04:00

Should a LTC salute a Colonel? Yes- they should.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2018 12:12 PM

2018-04-05T12:12:05-04:00

Rank amongst Lieutenants is like virtue among whores; there is none.

Response by Amn William T Tierney made Apr 6 at 2018 9:46 AM

2018-04-06T09:46:31-04:00

When you salute, you are saluting the rank, not the man.

Response by LTC Joseph George made Apr 6 at 2018 8:28 PM

2018-04-06T20:28:20-04:00

If you are taught properly there is no perception of what is right and wrong. The biggest problem is the liberal mindset that has crept into the ranks. The Army is not a democracy, every rank from WO1 to General has a requirement to those above them to carry out the orders given. When proper orders are given, reporting to a superior, the greeting of the day, a salute is given. Now that being said, there is the time honored traditions that are being forced out due to your liberal mindset and are being replaced by "The Unwritten Rules". This questionable issue of saluting an O2 from an O1 perspective is one of those rules. Read the Army Officers Guide and all regulations on Drill and Ceremony and discipline. If you are an ROTC, Direct Commission or West Point Officer, you may fall into the liberal mindset. At least those from OCS are still being taught properly, but that has been changing over the past 15 years.

Response by CH (LTC) Grant Speece made Apr 7 at 2018 4:28 PM

2018-04-07T16:28:42-04:00

No. The two are essentially the same rank.

Response by SGT Ray Davies made Apr 8 at 2018 4:47 PM

2018-04-08T16:47:57-04:00

As I Learned in the Army back in the 60s, "He who salutes first is a gentleman". It's just a matter of rank you still have to salute even if he id a dumb SOB.

Response by CPT Alfred Smiley made Apr 11 at 2018 1:59 AM

2018-04-11T01:59:56-04:00

I asked this question in ROTC, shortly before being commissioned 2LT (c. 1984).
My PMS (Professor of Military Science) replied: "There is no respect among lieutenants."
So, no; 2LTs do not salute 1LTs, nor do they call them sir or ma'am.

Response by CPT Alfred Smiley made Apr 11 at 2018 2:14 AM

2018-04-11T02:14:03-04:00

When I was an enlisted man, respect wasn't given until a soldier crossed the threshold to Sergeant (E-5). I always felt that E-5 was the "journeyman" level rank, whereas E-1 through E-4 were "apprentice" level.
I carried the same thought with me when I was commissioned some years later, only among officers O-1 and O-2 were "apprentice" ranks and the "journeyman" level was attained at O-3.
Just my particular way of thinking; I apprenticed as a carpenter under my grandfather and "journeyman" came after four years of apprenticeship.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2018 11:55 PM

2018-04-17T23:55:59-04:00

Duh

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2018 4:46 PM

2018-04-18T16:46:03-04:00

Uh yeah they should. I saluted CW2s when I was a W1 even though they would usually get mad at me

Response by SrA Joseph Saul Steward made Apr 19 at 2018 10:32 AM

2018-04-19T10:32:51-04:00

Never, ever should a higher ranking officer salute a lower ranking officer first. It is the duty of the lower ranking officer to pay respect towards the higher ranking.
SNCO's in the army wants to be saluted by NCO's in every branch of military service. They are wrong and go as far to be saluted in the field of combat. All Officers and NCO's know that saluting anyone in the combat field is wrong, exercise or war conditions.

Response by LT Terry Lober made Apr 21 at 2018 4:29 PM

2018-04-21T16:29:17-04:00

It is simple. The 1st Lt is an 0-2. The 2nd Lt. is an 0-1. The 2nd Lt owes the first 1st Lt a salute as much as that 1st Lt owes a Captain ( 0-3) a salute. Period.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2018 3:26 PM

2018-04-22T15:26:14-04:00

I tried saluting a 1LT as 2LT, and he told me drop that shit. At the end of the day we are still just LT's, one not better than the other and that that respect is reserved for captains and higher.

Response by CPO William A. Bullard Jr. made May 1 at 2018 8:30 AM

2018-05-01T08:30:07-04:00

Hey there 2nd LT get out! G

Response by CPO William A. Bullard Jr. made May 1 at 2018 8:39 AM

2018-05-01T08:39:23-04:00

Get TF out! Bet you don't mind a Senior Master Sergeant who can run a fueling boom at 20,000feet straight up quicker than a slick dick, who quite possibly cleaned out Kandahar in '03, saluting you. After all where's the difference; the man is senior to you in everything except Rank. For experience you're bent dick broke for a number of years compared to that man until you've paid dues and cleared ranking evals and gotten some scars. He salutes first because [it's really simple so listen up Pilgrim] he is saluting the rank and not the Man. WTFO is so hard to understand about that. You came into the Tribe, put on the skins now live by the traditions or GTF out. Tellya' one thing 2ndLt. if he's wearing CMoH you'll be saluting him at every meeting; got any problem with that?

Response by Maj John Rivero made May 1 at 2018 3:19 PM

2018-05-01T15:19:27-04:00

I was a Mustang 2ndLT. I never had a problem of not being saluted. Same ? should a Lt.Col. salute a Col? The regs are clear on this.

Response by Sgt Michael Clifford made May 6 at 2018 8:10 PM

2018-05-06T20:10:30-04:00

I don't understand the question. The chain of command clearly shows a 1st Lt as senior to a 2nd Lt. therefore rating a salute from all of lower rank. Does the Army have a different criteria for company grade officers?

Response by PVT Paul Vary made May 12 at 2018 12:36 PM

2018-05-12T12:36:22-04:00

The 2lt should salute the 1st

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2018 4:27 PM

2018-05-17T16:27:58-04:00

Yes and then beat him for hesitating.
In all seriousness Naval Aviation takes a different view. I hardly get saluted or salute due to the fact that we are on the flight line a lot, hence covers are not worn, salutes are not rendered uncovered. Outside of the fence we wear covers but only salute 04 and above. We all fly together and there is no rank in the cockpit. We view 01-03 as equals with regards to rank. Rank is not a determining factor but Aircraft qualification and positional authority take precedence.

The Navy Surface Warfare community is different. The boot Ensign salutes even a LTJG on the ship. They get butthurt when we don't salute them. Fly Navy!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2018 11:06 AM

2018-05-19T11:06:56-04:00

There is no rank among thieves and lieutenants.

Response by CPT Hugh Rhodes made May 21 at 2018 11:01 AM

2018-05-21T11:01:32-04:00

When I was a 1st LT I never expected a 2nd Lt to salute me and I can't remember any of them doing so. It was a good thing to have 1st LTs around you could ask questions as a newly minted 2nd LT without having to call them sir or salute.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2018 4:30 PM

2018-05-23T16:30:11-04:00

Almost the entire armed forces have this backwards... It's a lot like having good manners in general.

Who benefits from you saluting? That LT or General? Nah. All they gain is the obligation to salute back. The real benefit of it goes directly to you yourself. Your own personal "stock value" increases every single time you do the right thing. That LT sees you as being slightly more valuable as a Soldier and a person. The NCO that saw you do it sees you as being a better Soldier and person. The status of how valuable you are as a person goes up in the perception of everyone around you. Happens when you salute, happens when you say please, happens when you say thank you...

Should a 2LT salute a 1LT? Depends... Doesn't depend on wether or not the 1LT "deserves" a salute, it depends on wether or not the 2LT is worthy of giving it :)

Response by PO2 Roger O'Day made May 27 at 2018 11:41 PM

2018-05-27T23:41:30-04:00

Stupid question.
Junior salute senior officers.
It’s been to many years but don’t you only salute the forst time you see them.
I never had a problem saluting.
Not even boot Ensigns.
It’s not like your ruining your entire day by doing it.

Response by SFC Dennis Yancy made May 28 at 2018 10:12 AM

2018-05-28T10:12:22-04:00

If you do not want to get chewed out by some wannabe best salute seniors. The salute is about respect that sometimes is demanded and not earned. Different cultures do it different. Assigned to NATO (German AF) discovered they were very laid back. Anybody remember 1000 hrs beer/brochen break. Big change when I had to go over to a different kaserne. I could not open a door by myself. Every gerfieter(private) knew I was a senior American NCO and I could not do anything without some private jumping out of bushes to do it for me.

Response by LTC Ray Morris made Jun 11 at 2018 7:43 AM

2018-06-11T07:43:34-04:00

A salute by a 2LT to a 1LT is not only an ingrained tradition within the military, it is required by regulation. Get over it. Hasn't anyone ever heard the catch-phrase, "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it?" There are some serious problems in the military that needs fixing, this isn't one of them.

Response by Sgt Steve Williams made Jun 17 at 2018 7:38 PM

2018-06-17T19:38:11-04:00

Should a E-9 salute a brand new 2LT? We can't be trying to interpret every salute opportunity for some kind of value judgement. The rules are clear. And they don't require that you actually believe the individual deserves your respect.

Response by Cpl Bernard Bates made Jun 18 at 2018 10:28 PM

2018-06-18T22:28:04-04:00

Why even ask a question like that. Its a no brainer. A salute is used to honor the rank, officers should salute Officers and enlisted men salute officers. Marines do not salute officers indoors without a cover (hat) on and the only time you wear a cover in doors is with a Duty belt on. If an enlisted man is wearing the MOH. an Officer should salute the enlisted man. You salute the medal not the man.

Response by HN Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2018 7:17 PM

2018-06-21T19:17:22-04:00

I used to Left Hand Salute Butter Bars just to see if they were paying Attention. I was Enlisted & an E-5. Most of the time they weren't, but that said, Yes is my Answer because it would be like a Colonel Saluting a General, or a Major, Saluting a Colonel. It's command, & Respect for the rank

Response by CWO4 Josh Henley made Jun 22 at 2018 4:28 PM

2018-06-22T16:28:53-04:00

Salute the young officer. One day, they will remember when not so young...

Response by SCPO Scott Welch made Jun 22 at 2018 10:33 PM

2018-06-22T22:33:46-04:00

How do I feel? Regulations dammit. You never see Marines asking dumbs$$t questions like this.

Response by CPT Philip Bailey made Jun 24 at 2018 9:18 PM

2018-06-24T21:18:49-04:00

This custom is not a subservient duty. This custom is an exchange honor between those in the profession of arms. The question is wrong-headed. Look for opportunities to exchange salutes. Do it joyfully!

Response by LCpl Michael Cappello made Jun 29 at 2018 12:08 PM

2018-06-29T12:08:49-04:00

The very term "salute" means "greeting". Hence the word salutation. While it is indeed a time honored recognition between warriors, as so well explained in the movie Last Castle, it is also a time honored courtesy. It is not only a sign of recognition, is is a mark of respect. As such, not rendering a proper salute can also be construed as a mark of disrespect. In the Corps we are taught to not only salute, but to also render an appropriate verbal greeting as well. Something such as "good morning sir" or something similar. We are also taught to request permission to pass an officer from the rear by asking "by your leave sir" (and saluting as well) when we are coming abreast of the officer and are passing, him or her, by. Not for nothing, I find it odd that questions of this type always seem to come from personnel other than Marines. Weird huh?

Response by LCpl Michael Cappello made Jun 29 at 2018 12:18 PM

2018-06-29T12:18:43-04:00

I believe you have said it all when you quote the regs on saluting. I know that ANY cadet in ANY military school, including West Point< would NEVER fail to render the proper courtesy. Shouldn't ALL officers strive to hold themselves to the same high standards? Better yet. Why does it always seem to be that questions of protocol and courtesy are seldom if ever asked by Marines? Why do we hold our selves to those higher standards of honor and courtesy? Why do other branches seem to have such problems with such simple things? If the regs clearly state something then there should be no problem. Shouldn't it be that simple? Just saying.

Response by SPC Earl Semler made Jul 3 at 2018 6:01 PM

2018-07-03T18:01:09-04:00

Yes, you salute the rank no matter what your rank is. If you are working together I don't think it needed every time you see each other.

Response by SFC Leo Augustin made Jul 9 at 2018 10:40 PM

2018-07-09T22:40:23-04:00

i agree that a 2LT should salute a 1LT, but what i have a problem with is if my hands are full or i just did not see the Officer why make a big deal about it. if my hands are full i still give the greetings of the day to show respect but if i did not see you there is nothing i could do and i feel that it does not take anything away from that Officer, i have had Officers get attitudes because my hands are full or i just did not notice them and yes it makes me angry because it was never intentional.

Response by LTC James McElreath made Jul 9 at 2018 10:48 PM

2018-07-09T22:48:35-04:00

If there is any doubt in your mind salute! You will never be wrong to salute a senior officer. He/she earned the rank and respect accordingly! LTC Shewbert stated why you should salute.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2018 2:41 AM

2018-07-10T02:41:45-04:00

Yes, always!

Response by CPO Dale Dietzman made Jul 14 at 2018 8:22 PM

2018-07-14T20:22:22-04:00

The usage in the Navy is a bit different, as in ships or squadrons we often see the same people many times a day and saluting all the time becomes both tedious and interfers with performing assigned duties in some cases. Typically we salute at the first meeting of the day with a particular person, and never when uncovered. If we are on a base of another service we follow thier protocol.

Response by CWO4 Gene A. made Jul 15 at 2018 4:39 PM

2018-07-15T16:39:52-04:00

Must be running out of subjects to discuss. The answer is in your question. If senior, salute.

Response by LT Mike Jennings made Jul 17 at 2018 11:01 AM

2018-07-17T11:01:11-04:00

The rendering of a salute exists solely to demonstrate respect to the authority of a senior rank and the greater authority and responsibility that comes with it. It has nothing to do with the person who wears the rank. As all officers know, the source of that authority comes from the President of the United States himself first in the form of a commission and then subsequently through promotion. Though the conveyance of that authority has become mostly ceremonial since the nationalization of U.S. armed forces around the turn of the last century, the legal basis of that authority remains unchanged, which is why the rendering of a salute to officers of higher rank is mandated by regulation and not optional. Therefore, the salute is both a tradition and a conformance to military regulation. As with all traditions formalize by regulation, the salute exists to serve as a frequent reminder of military rank structure and supports maintenance of good order and discipline without regard for the character of the person wearing the rank, which is a concept that runs counter to today's culture and may be hard for many to accept. However, the harsh realities of armed conflict and the UCMJ that holds it together remain unchanged. Disrespect for the offices of elected leaders based on a dislike of the office holder has become so commonplace and pervasive that it has nearly become a tradition of its own, and unfortunately, that has also led to blatant disrespect for civil authorities as well.
In a society that is becoming less formal and where enlisted personnel are taking on greater roles commensurate with expertise developed through years of training and experience, the rendering of a salute to officers of higher rank is actually becoming increasingly more important and not less important as a reminder of the military requirement to submit to authority and render respect for it regardless of personal opinions. At the same time, the acknowledgement of authority and responsibility does not supersede the need for the office-holder to practice good leadership and constantly develop the influence skills necessary to build strong teams and earn the respect of those in his/her charge, but none-the-less in a business where one human being has the authority (and sometimes the responsibility) of ordering another person to his/her near certain death, there can be no conflation of leadership skill, personal respect and personality that rises above that of basic military rank structure. Unfortunately, Hollywood has perpetuated that myth in nearly every military movie made since the end of the Vietnam War. The bottom line is that the authority that comes with rank derived from the President's commission remains firmly rooted in law.
Where our military administrators have created this problem over the last century lies in the merger of rank and pay grade. Combining this factor with an all-volunteer force and the development of both officer and enlisted career paths that require growth in pay grade to remain employed, the administrators of our armed forces have undermined the value of at least small differences in rank especially where time-in-grade is the sole requirement for promotion. The underlying problem in the entire system has been the albatross of the military pension system established over 100 years ago when we did not have an all-volunteer force and a society that has smashed nearly all social barriers both good and bad. 40 years into maintaining a fully volunteer standing military, the DoD has recognized that the legacy pension system fails to meet the needs of most modern service members and has made positive changes to develop a more flexible structure that requires a person complete at least 20 years of service to derive pension-like benefits. Therefore the career planning that supported that pension system must change, too. Only when the services abandon the "move up or move out" mindset that requires significant increases in rank (and supposedly authority) to maintain longevity of employment will the services rank structure begin to make sense again. Far too many people are being promoted to positions of authority above their abilities or character. People are being promoted largely because it is their time as long as the person checks the right boxes and has not messed up according the an ever-changing standard. The net result has been lack of respect for the rank and lack of accountability for failures. One needs only to look at the absence of accountability being applied to the officers and senior enlisted of MCCAIN AND FITZGERALD whose negligence to maintain even the most modest standard of "safety of navigation" and responsibility of the role led to the deaths of over 25 people in their charge without the incarceration of a single person. This stands as a clear example of what happens when rank and responsibility are given to people who lack the character qualities to assume roles of increasing responsibility but are being moved in career paths by a system that is more concerned about checking boxes than building competence - people in authority are not held responsible for the results of their actions or inactions, which further serves to undermine the respect for the rank that these people hold. Loss of 1/2 pay for 3 months and the end of employment in return for the loss of over a dozen lives due to that person's negligence is neither justice for those lives nor accountability for the authority these people have been given, but the net result has surely lowered the confidence of enlisted sailors and the American people in their officers who are supposed to maintain "the highest standards" of duty, honor and loyalty. It is no wonder that our men and women in uniform of all ranks are having a difficult time understanding why the rendering of a salute is required and relevant in the modern era.

Response by SPC Donald Donovan made Jul 22 at 2018 11:36 PM

2018-07-22T23:36:15-04:00

Wow. Is this really even an issue?
You salute officers of higher rank than you. 2nd LT Salutes 1st LT.
LTC Salute Full Bird. Majors Salute LTC. Color of your rank or having similar words in the rank don’t matter. Military courtesy is essential. The color of your bar or oak leaf should not have any confusion. Officers should lead by example. Least that’s how it was done back in the 80’s. Just my 2 cents.

Response by Sgt James Hicks made Jul 22 at 2018 11:55 PM

2018-07-22T23:55:07-04:00

That is a stupid question, it is like asking should pre schoolers salute a 2nd grader

Response by CPT Edwina McCall made Jul 26 at 2018 3:40 PM

2018-07-26T15:40:11-04:00

I joined the Army Reserve in 1988. I was a Combat Support nurse. I served in two wars. My X was in the military, my father was military, I want the military to retain all the regulations it has always had, traditions and rules, stop trying fix something that wasn't broken until snowflakes and Obama and LGBT community got hold of it.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2018 1:25 AM

2018-07-29T01:25:30-04:00

Should a Sgt? Cause you're still a private in a sense to us...

Response by 2ndLt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2018 8:17 AM

2018-07-29T08:17:29-04:00

This question ties into officership. As some have stated, the Marine Corps will follow the One-Bar Rule. Lieutenants and Warrant Officers do not salute each other. Bottom line, it’s awkward. At The Basic School, you have 2ndLt, 1stLt, and WO1 all running around together as students and peers. Because we grow up together in that regard, we don’t think of ourselves as superior to one other. That’s not to say that we don’t show respect to that CWO4 or CWO5 or the 1stLt, but we don’t salute each other.

In my class, we even had a Capt who was a staff judge advocate. Just how it works for them with commissioning and going through law school. So he was not a fleet Marine yet. We wouldn’t formally salute him because we were all on the same level. It would just be awkward and isn’t warranted in that setting.

Bottom line, salute the position and not necessarily the rank when it comes to officers. If a 2ndLt and 1stLt are both platoon commanders, why would you salute each other? Now if that 1stLt is my Co Cmdr, I would absolutely salute out of respect for the position or billet held.

Response by PFC Tim Arnett made Jul 31 at 2018 3:25 PM

2018-07-31T15:25:34-04:00

1st Lt is a command executive officer that usually is subordinate to a Captain, so my question is, if two Lt's are standing side by side, are they equal to a Captain NOW? How's that old saying go? Ours is not to wonder why, it is to do or die?

Response by CPO Michael Burns made Jul 31 at 2018 9:26 PM

2018-07-31T21:26:59-04:00

Different branches have different instructions, but I’m surprised this is even a question. Of course a salute should be rendered, and the junior should initiate the salute first. Common sense should tell you that sometimes people don’t notice, aren’t paying attention, have thier hands full, etc...

The problem I have is when an enlisted member renders a salute, you know darn well the the officer saw it and is fully aware and capable of returning it... but doesn’t. At least in the Navy, returning a salute is NOT optional, but some junior officers either are unaware, or have thier own opinions on the matter.

Response by 1SG Angelo Villavicencio made Aug 2 at 2018 3:45 PM

2018-08-02T15:45:24-04:00

Yes but not absolutely. The regulation aside for a moment. It all depends on the type of environment the officers are operating out of. An example must always be set and assumed enlisted are viewing the professional exchange; always lead by example, set the example. If the officers are under a professional development course among fellow officers, respectfully no, especially if they are on a first name basis. A very senior 1LT or in command such as Company Commander, Platoon leader etc... yes, please salute.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2018 5:46 PM

2018-08-04T17:46:58-04:00

That non come who complained had barely put on his stripes but did get the respect afforded to the rank. Non cons need to practise what they preach and if we can all preach from the same manual our military will be so much better...On the minute.

Response by Col Dana Jacobson made Aug 6 at 2018 11:57 AM

2018-08-06T11:57:54-04:00

When I was a young Captain, a 1LT in my housing area berated a 2LT who lived next door to her for failing to salute when he got out of his car in his driveway and she was outside. As an officer and an AF brat, I was embarrassed for the 1LT for her teeny weeny self-esteem. Positional authority is the weakest kind. Think that 2LT (or anybody else who witnessed it) had ANY respect for her?

Response by CW3 Michael Bodnar made Aug 8 at 2018 11:12 AM

2018-08-08T11:12:16-04:00

What's the purpose of having "regulations" if weren't not following them? Should we hang them in the restroom and use them as toilet paper? Come on folks, we ALL need to enforce the rules whether we agree with them or not. That's what being a disciplined force is all about. WRT saluting, I was told as a candidate that when you make WO1, your arm will be coming up when you walk past anyone in uniform and they were correct. I salute the ranks higher than not because I want to but because a regulation tells me to.

Response by CPL Raul Perez Jr made Aug 10 at 2018 12:13 PM

2018-08-10T12:13:49-04:00

Salutes is about honor and respect for each other.

Response by MGySgt Clint Pearman made Aug 13 at 2018 3:01 AM

2018-08-13T03:01:58-04:00

I spent 31 years in the Marine Corps made it to MGySgt. And after I retired I put my uniform back on because my nephew had just been selected and promoted to WO in the Army And he asked me if I would attend. I thought it was an immense honor to be able to salute this brand new WO and show how much I respected what he did. I only wish I could have attended the ceremony when he became a first lieutenant, second lieutenant, captain, and now major. I think the BG said it all above and nothing else needs to be said about should whether you should or shouldn’t salute someone. Great answer General.

Response by MAJ David Atkinson made Aug 16 at 2018 10:39 PM

2018-08-16T22:39:38-04:00

Yes.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2018 6:17 AM

2018-08-17T06:17:40-04:00

That's the rank structure, 1lt is by rank the higher in the rank line so yes he should salute.

Response by SSgt Gerald Davis Jr made Aug 19 at 2018 4:43 PM

2018-08-19T16:43:11-04:00

Hell yes, you salute all senior officers.

Response by SSgt Max Gonzales made Aug 20 at 2018 2:21 PM

2018-08-20T14:21:22-04:00

The recognition of rank has always been a tradition. Some officers I have seen, only salute in certain ceremonies or when outside.

Response by MSgt Horace Smith made Aug 24 at 2018 2:38 AM

2018-08-24T02:38:08-04:00

I don't know why this is even being asked. A 1st Lt is senior to a 2nd Lt and the 2nd Lt should render a salute to any officer senior to them and hold that salute until it's properly returned. Period.

Response by PO1 Robert George made Sep 3 at 2018 6:33 PM

2018-09-03T18:33:37-04:00

guess my response is...why is this a question? juniors salute seniors. what's not to understand.
over the course of 20 years have had to deal with seniors who demonstrated they did not deserve the respect the uniform demanded. you salute the uniform if not the person.
in addition it's up to you to respectfully teach that person how to do better. When it comes to O-1 and 2's, they don't know what they don't know. if they haven't improved by the time they make O-3, you're partly responsible

Response by SGT Bryan O'Reilly made Sep 4 at 2018 5:20 AM

2018-09-04T05:20:45-04:00

I think if you earned rank you are entitled to the respect that rank commands. It's also important to tradition and so that 2LT learns chain of command. So, yes. He should give the man the respect he deserves and maintain our etiquette and protocol.

Response by SPC Mike Davis made Sep 4 at 2018 7:35 AM

2018-09-04T07:35:18-04:00

I believe the original question was: "Should a 2nd Lt salute a 1st Lt.? If the 2nd and 1st lt's overlook the fact the regulations require such an acknowledgment. Then by what is authority do such officer's have to correct an enlist for not saluting them? Especially if such a requalation is abused on one level but enforced on those who have no power to protest such an abuse of power. Be honest! I believe every officer who has commented on this post will defend the no salute policy for Lt,s, but, will without mercy demand saluates from enlist all the time every time.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Sep 4 at 2018 8:11 AM

2018-09-04T08:11:34-04:00

The answer Is in the Question AR-600-25. A Salute is a show of Respect. We have a generation that have Zero Respect for anything so unless one enforces Saluting it will become a thing of the past. You Salute to show respect for the Rank not the Person.

Response by MSgt James Slawson made Sep 4 at 2018 11:51 AM

2018-09-04T11:51:08-04:00

If you have to ask you obviously do not care about respect or regulations. Any junior officer regardless of position must salute a higher ranking officer. That’s like saying a person who makes O-3 earlier than another LT who has been in longer does not have to salute the new O-3. If you are an O-1 and happen to be in a position of a Commander and you see an O-2 your arm better be on the move!

Response by SGT Bryan O'Reilly made Sep 5 at 2018 7:24 PM

2018-09-05T19:24:45-04:00

If you earned rank you are entitled to the respect that rank commands. Period. It's also important to tradition and so that 2LT learns chain of command. So, yes. He should give the man the respect he deserves and maintain our etiquette and protocol.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2018 1:27 PM

2018-09-07T13:27:33-04:00

We are a republic governed by laws. The regulations in the military are our laws we chose to live by and support. If we do not follow them, something as simple as saluting because of one grade difference, then LTC's don't need to salute COL's. After all, we reference them both as COL when in discussion. I suppose we can carry this over to the NCO Corps while we are at it, one grade difference doesn't need to show respect to the senior member. Under this concept we just tare down the discipline of the military then call the POTUS to let him know we are going to pull back from all missions and sit on the couch drinking beer.

Response by SGT Kyle Bickley made Sep 9 at 2018 9:43 PM

2018-09-09T21:43:22-04:00

Gotta give ya a big fat " Duh! " on that one! A First Louie is senior on that one! Read your AR!

Response by LTC Lewis Cox made Sep 11 at 2018 5:25 AM

2018-09-11T05:25:02-04:00

My Military Career is over; however, during my career I always saluted and returned Salutes. I felt it was just our way of acknowledging fellow soldiers! Just saying: Hi there!

Response by LTC Vincent Knapp made Sep 14 at 2018 9:56 PM

2018-09-14T21:56:22-04:00

I commanded two companies as a 1LT back in the mid 70's. Damn right they saluted.

Response by SPC Steve Oxley made Sep 18 at 2018 9:41 PM

2018-09-18T21:41:49-04:00

Whip it on him.

Response by Maj Aaron Kozloski made Sep 18 at 2018 9:50 PM

2018-09-18T21:50:03-04:00

Is this a serious question? Short answer, yes.

Response by LCpl Rob Cooper made Sep 27 at 2018 1:15 PM

2018-09-27T13:15:51-04:00

1st LT is a senior rank and should be saluted by the junior 2nd LT

Response by COL Johnny Powers made Sep 29 at 2018 6:21 PM

2018-09-29T18:21:49-04:00

No. Any 1LT who is not a Commander who thinks 2LTs who do not work for them is in for a hard lesson. All LTs should be in the fight together assisting each other’s and learning all they can. Heck, some LTs are almost 1LTs by the time they reach their units depending on the amount of training. You will have many more very import things to think about than whether LTs should be saluting each other.

Response by Lt Col Walter Green made Sep 30 at 2018 7:27 PM

2018-09-30T19:27:42-04:00

A lot of people miss the point - a salute is a mark of respect between warriors. When we degrade it to a question of who has to salute whom, and make it a discussion about rules, we lose sight of the fundamental truth. I salute you because you are a brother or sister member of a group of people who are committed to go willingly into harms way with the intent to do violence to our country's enemies, not as a meaningless gesture of subservience or superiority. That respect extends whether you are junior in rank to me, the same rank, or senior in rank to me, male or female, tall or short, fat or thin, regardless of race or ethnicity or religion or national origin. It is a unique part of what bonds us together as professionals. Civilians in general do not have the privilege of saluting or being saluted.

Response by SGM Ed Mounts made Oct 1 at 2018 10:22 AM

2018-10-01T10:22:42-04:00

Of course they should salute and if they don't, put your foot up their fourth point of contact. Be a leader and lead these young LT's and set the standard for them. These young officers will meet the expectations given, so set your expectations high.

Response by SPC Dave Loeffler made Oct 1 at 2018 10:52 AM

2018-10-01T10:52:50-04:00

Seems to me the salute is required, silver bar vs gold bar. So how can you not recognize the difference. A lame excuse at best sounds like new officer fat headedness! This is a time honored military tradition of all services. It is a time honored gripe by senior NCOs vs 2nd lt. No brains ect. It has always been so even in the Roman Legions! Senior always train junior that include NCOs training new officers

Response by MAJ Paul Willis made Oct 8 at 2018 11:08 AM

2018-10-08T11:08:44-04:00

It's like Nike.....Just do it....not really that hard

Response by SGT Christopher Combs made Oct 8 at 2018 12:43 PM

2018-10-08T12:43:24-04:00

I've always saluted my officers but not always got the salute back. I got used to it

Response by LTC Michael Garrison made Oct 14 at 2018 7:25 AM

2018-10-14T07:25:18-04:00

Saluting should not be a problem. A salute is a mutual gesture of respect with the junior person only initiating it. It should not be considered a gesture of subservience. I remember the story of a general seeing a serviceman saluting over and over as a punishment to a senior officer. When questioned the senior officer said the serviceman did not salute him as he should. The general stopped this immediately as the senior officer was not returning the salutes and was told to do so. The General was Lewis "Chesty" Puller of the Marine Corps and he respected all Marines from top to bottom.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2018 6:40 PM

2018-10-16T18:40:34-04:00

Should a Lieutenant Colonel salute a full bird Colonel? Yes.
Should a Lieutenant General (3 star) salute a General (4 star) ? Yes.
Should a 2nd Lieutenant salute a 1st Lieutenant? Yes.

Response by Sgt Ronald Paden made Oct 16 at 2018 8:00 PM

2018-10-16T20:00:01-04:00

Certainly a 2nd LT should salute it is definitely out of respect for the rank. The same as a CMS should salute the 2nd LT you ar saluting the rank not the experience. If you expect a junior enlisted to salute out of respect all should follow the same protocol

Response by PO2 Karl Lehn made Oct 18 at 2018 2:51 AM

2018-10-18T02:51:56-04:00

By my experience (I'm using paygrades because I'm Navy to avoid confusion) I've only observed salutes between officers when theres a two paygrade difference in rank, ie O1 salutes O3 and above, O2 Salutes O3 on up. I've always understood a more "relaxed" relationship between O1 and O2.
Now as for warrants I've always been confused. By law and I quote," Warrant officers fall with but behind 2nd Lieutenants and Ensigns." My interpretation of that is that Warrants and O1's ae virtually equal. I don't really see a need to exchange salutes between them. Also given the parameters given in that law do or why do warrants salute among themselves? Technically all warrants fall with but behind O1's so aren't all warrants technically equals?
Your thoughts please gentlemen.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Oct 23 at 2018 4:32 PM

2018-10-23T16:32:22-04:00

Salute.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Oct 23 at 2018 4:34 PM

2018-10-23T16:34:35-04:00

Salute.

Response by SGT Beth Day made Oct 25 at 2018 2:37 PM

2018-10-25T14:37:58-04:00

A 1st LT outranks a 2nd LT. A salute should not even be questioned. Nuff said

Response by TSgt James Lacey made Nov 4 at 2018 8:29 AM

2018-11-04T08:29:36-05:00

I am an Air Force Vet, during my time in the service I noticed more 1lt saluting 2lt than the other way around. I ask my units first lieutenent why and he said, 'They are still learning.

Response by SMSgt Tim Shuey made Nov 7 at 2018 1:10 PM

2018-11-07T13:10:38-05:00

double tap....deleted

Response by SMSgt Tim Shuey made Nov 7 at 2018 1:16 PM

2018-11-07T13:16:53-05:00

It's just a tradition, and we are in a line of work that revolves around traditions. I know I'll come off as the old "brown shoe" but......If an E-8 or E-9 is required to salute an O-2, I think an O-1 can manage. Let the storm begin young officers.

Response by Capt Loren Morgan made Nov 7 at 2018 8:51 PM

2018-11-07T20:51:56-05:00

Simple answer is yes. When I was a senior Capt I had a young troop who thought that an 18 year old E2 was just the same as a 1Lt. It took a bit of time but I was finally able to convince him that was not the case.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2018 10:17 PM

2018-11-07T22:17:58-05:00

Hell yes

Response by MAJ Daniel Hammond made Nov 9 at 2018 7:25 PM

2018-11-09T19:25:10-05:00

Lieutenants don't salute lieutenants.
Rank among LTs is like virtue among whores.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2018 11:27 PM

2018-11-12T23:27:57-05:00

I recommend trying the CW5 and SGM. Make them stand at attention when addressing you. Thats supposed to happen too. Its a good way to make new friends. ;)

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Nov 19 at 2018 10:13 AM

2018-11-19T10:13:38-05:00

What does ar-600-25 say again? In that is your answer.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2018 10:46 PM

2018-11-21T22:46:31-05:00

I was only a 2LT for six months, but I always saluted anyone senior to me.

Response by SSgt Francis Buck Daily made Nov 24 at 2018 8:01 PM

2018-11-24T20:01:40-05:00

There is how ever an exception: if the officer can’t return the slute it is acceptable to great with a good morning or afternoon. This occurred with me when I was stationed at Camp LeJune and was marching a platoon and passed an officer that had his hands full and as I marched past I greeted him with a good morning. He didn’t know the rule and called the company office to report this matter to the CO and was told l was correct in not saluting him.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2018 8:29 PM

2018-11-24T20:29:57-05:00

Absolutely not. And any 1LT that demands it is on a power trip and needs a boot in the ass by their NCO.

Response by CPL James S. made Nov 25 at 2018 12:02 AM

2018-11-25T00:02:23-05:00

The only answer to this is "Yes - the 2LT should salute the 1LT". It really boils down to the regulations and the rank. This is spelt out in the reg's as well as explained in the customs and courtesies.
The two Lieutenants should lead by example.

Response by 1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2018 12:04 AM

2018-11-25T00:04:45-05:00

No. We're all LTs. Don't waste my time with that nonsense, just do your job, butter bar.

Response by 1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2018 12:06 AM

2018-11-25T00:06:55-05:00

If you're a 1LT and you're hung up on a 2LT not saluting you, you're not busy enough. Go find something to do. And I say that as a 1LT.

Response by 1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2018 12:20 AM

2018-11-25T00:20:28-05:00

I can appreciate the senior enlisted folks upholding regs, but there comes a time when regs get in the way. For the same reason that I and all my peers go to a half parade rest for our Sergeant Major, I don't expect a 2LT to defer to me. Common sense should win out over regs when inforcing regs is just an ego check.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2018 11:59 AM

2018-11-25T11:59:52-05:00

This is trivial at best but I would say yes you should do it. Ncos address higher ncos by rank and stand at parade rest this the same should be done with officers.

Response by LTC Patrick Turner made Nov 26 at 2018 8:56 AM

2018-11-26T08:56:05-05:00

The very short answer is YES to the extent that the 1LT is in a command position within, for example, a company. When there are formations and formal duties, it is only a sign of respect and to a superior in THESE situations. On a more routine scenario, around garrison or in the field, it would be a little over the top in my view. If a 1LT demanded that salute or recognition being in those situations, he or she would find themselves socially ostracized very quickly.

Response by SSG Russell Busicchia made Nov 27 at 2018 6:27 PM

2018-11-27T18:27:25-05:00

By the book. A butter bar salutes a silver bar.

Response by SSG Russell Busicchia made Nov 27 at 2018 6:30 PM

2018-11-27T18:30:32-05:00

You do not necessarily salute the man as much as you salute the rank. At one time you would salute a flag officer's car, if the stars were shown, without knowing if the flag officer was in the car or not.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2018 2:40 PM

2018-11-29T14:40:02-05:00

I think most people (In the most popular responses to this comment) are ignoring the question posed in the title. Should a 2LT salute a 1LT? By reg, yes, but I've been in several different units where 2LTs never saluted 1LTs. I've also seen 1LTs threaten 2LTs not to salute them because they are just "LT's". Read the entire thread, don't bash the person for "Even asking the question". There are rules that people bend and unwritten rules that people follow in all aspects of life. Bashing people on here leads to fellow officers and NCO's thinking their questions are "stupid" and will begin to shy away from the forum.

Response by PO2 Steven Michaeli made Dec 1 at 2018 8:50 PM

2018-12-01T20:50:13-05:00

Yes, always. Unless the 2nd luey is wearing the CMH

Response by TSgt Sean LaPlante made Dec 2 at 2018 6:04 PM

2018-12-02T18:04:37-05:00

It doesn’t matter which branch you’re in. The O-1 should be saluting the O-2...

Response by SGT James Frazier made Dec 2 at 2018 7:12 PM

2018-12-02T19:12:30-05:00

When is was on active duty, a butter bar did not salute and Silver bar. If a butter bar sees you walking done the street and you miss them the LT will lose their mine. but LTs to LTs not the reg says to lower ranks. End of discussion

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2018 5:26 PM

2018-12-04T17:26:54-05:00

I believe a 2nd Lt should salute a 1st Lt.

Response by MAJ Doug Mattox made Dec 5 at 2018 1:26 AM

2018-12-05T01:26:08-05:00

I asked this same question when I first started. I will never forget my Commander's response.
Virtue among Lts is like virtue among whores. (I still wasn't sure if I should salute or not.

Response by Stuart Earl McClure made Dec 5 at 2018 9:14 AM

2018-12-05T09:14:07-05:00

Anyone who is in higher rank than me will get a salute no matter what.

Response by Capt Claudia Valentine made Dec 5 at 2018 11:13 AM

2018-12-05T11:13:26-05:00

Yes, a 2LT should salute a 1LT. I did when I was a 2LT. It is about respect, and unlike the LTC who disagrees, I led by example. I am sure the LTC salutes or saluted Colonels. Though by his reasoning he shouldn't have to. After all, a colonel is a colonel, right?

Response by GySgt Dewey Bennett made Dec 5 at 2018 2:44 PM

2018-12-05T14:44:11-05:00

This is a joke right? When did we decide it's OK to choose whom to salute? All officers will be saluted except in a combat zone.... the junior shall salute the senior. Its not a discussion. It's the way it is.

Response by MAJ Ron McCauley made Dec 5 at 2018 9:07 PM

2018-12-05T21:07:51-05:00

I had no clue until I reported to my first battalion in the First Infantry Division. The first three 1Lts I met told me that all Lts call each other by their first name and never salute each other. All of us 2Lts still had great respect for the 1Lts that had 3 or more years in the Army. We respected them because we were clueless and fortunately learned a lot from from them.

Response by CPL Roy McCallum made Dec 5 at 2018 9:20 PM

2018-12-05T21:20:19-05:00

As a Corporal, it was my Duty to train to respect those in higher rank, whether Enlisted or Officer. Salute an Officer, and acknowledge any enlisted higher in rank. Also trained them to train those in lower grade as well. Respect and Regulation.

Response by 1LT Bret Richards made Dec 5 at 2018 10:00 PM

2018-12-05T22:00:33-05:00

I was a brand new 2LT (a month in the engineer battalion) and the Corp Maintenance Chief (CW5 or it could have been CW4) was on our line in the battalion motor pool on maintenance Monday. hmmm funny how my squad leaders all seemed to vanish at the moment the Chief walked through. We had a piece of equipment that was deadlined for too long He raked me over the coals on the maintenance status of the equipment - then he took the time to train me on how to manage and track my platoons equipment more efficiently. I have never met a WO that wasn't awesome btw.

At the end of it I started to salute him first, I was nervous and I did respect this man's knowledge and experience. He kind of chuckled and we both finished our salutes. He went off to find the maintenance NCO to get the real answers.

While I am okay being a nervous new 2LT and mistakenly saluting a chief warrant officer, the only way I would salute a 1LT would be if the XO was in charge of the company formation. Otherwise if it was just an LT walking by an LT thats all it was. No saluting required.

Response by SSG Donald Powell made Dec 6 at 2018 12:46 PM

2018-12-06T12:46:17-05:00

Yes and the Sergeant Major of the Army should salute a WO1 also

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2018 7:53 AM

2018-12-07T07:53:14-05:00

I can't believe the stupidity of this question even being asked. Water is wet. Juniors salute seniors. Stop dumbing down my Army.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2018 2:28 PM

2018-12-08T14:28:57-05:00

In the Marines there is a saying that says “bars don’t salute bars” and I found this to be true everywhere except for TBS in Quantico and this includes WOs. Technically, a salute should be rendered in this situation just as one would expect a W5 to salute a Lt but that rarely happens.

Response by CWO4 Gene A. made Dec 8 at 2018 6:54 PM

2018-12-08T18:54:14-05:00

If this has to be asked by anyone serving, with maybe the exception of a new recruit, than it begs the question "Did you not learn anything in the Academy, OCS, or Basic?" This kind of entry suggests our military isn't very astute.

Response by CPL Fabian Sanchez made Dec 8 at 2018 6:55 PM

2018-12-08T18:55:55-05:00

Allways salute a senior officer,no matter what, its the way the armed forces are structured, if you have served, as i have,you show respect to the rank,im sure there is a regulation that specifies that.Be proud of your service and those that came before.

Response by LtCol George Carlson made Dec 8 at 2018 8:14 PM

2018-12-08T20:14:49-05:00

I haven't read every comment but a common thread is that most seem to look on the person initiating the exchange of salutes as somehow "burdened." As I recall, at whatever the rank from 2ndLt to LtCol, the enlisted personnel that comprised about 90% of the command had to initiate the exchange when meeting the 10% who were officers. The officers, on the other hand, had to return the salutes of everyone (except the very small percentage who were of the same rank). Looks to me that the "burden" on officers far exceeds the "burden" on enlisted personnel. The ultimate issue, however, is the fact that anyone considers an exchange of salutes as a burden at all.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2018 11:19 PM

2018-12-08T23:19:15-05:00

Does a Pv2 stand at parade rest for a Pfc?
I guess it's your own perogative, I never saluted other lieutenants when I was one, nor did I expect them to salute me.

Response by SFC Popz Beckwith made Dec 9 at 2018 4:16 PM

2018-12-09T16:16:01-05:00

Yes. It’s the Officer rank

Response by LTC Gary Earls made Dec 9 at 2018 4:35 PM

2018-12-09T16:35:05-05:00

Yes. We were taught in Infantry OCS that we would salute iLTs. Got to my first assignment at Fort McClellan and I report in to the brigade adjutant who is a first lieutenant. give me a salute and he returned it and called me by my first name and told me to sit down.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Dec 9 at 2018 7:12 PM

2018-12-09T19:12:40-05:00

Yes.

Response by LTC Laura Wickett made Dec 9 at 2018 7:49 PM

2018-12-09T19:49:35-05:00

Yes regardless of the old adage that there is no rank among Lieutenants

Response by PO2 Thomas Tidwell made Dec 9 at 2018 8:00 PM

2018-12-09T20:00:16-05:00

I say yes as stated in the an earlier paragraph. It would be out of respect.

Response by SP5 Pat Hughes made Dec 10 at 2018 12:47 AM

2018-12-10T00:47:26-05:00

LOL,
When I was in Vietnam we did not salute anyone. I was on my way to my R&R.
I was in Cam Ron Bay and I am walking down the street and this light bird was walking on the other side of the street about 75 feet away, I didn't salute and this guy came over and started to dress me down.
He said don't you salute an officer, I said we do not salute anyone but I would make an exception for you.
Than he asked what unit are from? I told him the 173rd, he shook his head and walked away.
For those who do not know we never saluted an officer, snipers would have field day.
God bless the United States of America

Response by Brad Powers made Dec 10 at 2018 1:02 AM

2018-12-10T01:02:49-05:00

Would it be safe to say that a leader should want his subordinates to have confidence such as subordinates should want their leaders to have confidence. I would sure have more confidence in working with somebody that is on the same page as the company and I think that saluting an officer is recognition of their Authority which has been invested into them by the chain of command. It seems like breaking this rule and tradition that has long existed could create serious dysfunction.

Response by Brad Powers made Dec 10 at 2018 2:37 AM

2018-12-10T02:37:07-05:00

What I think about this twice I say of course it is courteous and respectfull as well as military law. Having said that I would followers orders and salute my commanding officers as well as strive to become better each day. I certainly am not going to let the enemy kill me and I do not want left alone with them either is the attitude I can offer.

Response by HN Chris Doc Rose made Dec 11 at 2018 1:03 AM

2018-12-11T01:03:47-05:00

Don't get me wrong, I believe in Regulations. I was raised in a family who has served this land since the Revolutionary War. Mothers side Officers and Fathers side enlisted. They instilled that it is the man who makes the uniform and rank, not the uniform and rank who makes the man. The time and tradition honored salute knows no rank, only honor and integrity. It's integrity and honor for the rank and regulations that require a salute. Sounds like a fortune cookie, but my opinion.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2018 2:44 PM

2018-12-11T14:44:50-05:00

After I graduated OCS, I returned as an instructor and saluted one of my former TAC officers, and he corrected me that there is no rank among Lieutenants, so I never did, after that.

Response by LTC Wayne Dandridge made Dec 11 at 2018 5:02 PM

2018-12-11T17:02:09-05:00

Wow. So much thought and discussion to something so clearly spelled out in military regulations and tradition. The salute is more of a respect from one soldier to another than a recognition of rank. However, the respect and requirement to follow legal, ethical, and legal orders like the standing order (regulation) to salute seniors. All junior officers salute senior officers, no matter what their rank --- unless it is in combat or at places where it has been waived by the commander (like active combat, sniper infested areas, flight lines etc.). There is nothing wrong with a senior soldier initiating a salute if the junior has not yet done so. In most cases, it is the men junior in rank to me that I have admired most. I always knew that the men working for me and with me would do their best to keep me alive. It was a few of the fools above me who I thought might get me killed one day.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2018 9:26 PM

2018-12-12T21:26:35-05:00

I remembered this post when this actually happened to me as a 1LT. I was at Walter Reed National Medical Center, and was saluted by an AF and Army 2LT. Then again, it’s AMEDD and I was also saluted by an O-5 USN medical officer and wanted to respond with: “no, that’s not how it works.”

Response by 2ndLt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2018 9:50 PM

2018-12-12T21:50:10-05:00

In the Marine Corps we have the "one bar rule" where WO's, 2ndLts, and 1stLts dont salute each other UNLESS they hold a position above you. Every Marine Officer goes through TBS which is 6 months of training on top of the months of waiting to start or from being injured (which is very common) then you head to your MOS training which means a lot of officers dont hit the fleet until they are 1stlts or even Captains so during the training period lts are all in the same boat sitting in the same classes together

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2018 10:43 AM

2018-12-13T10:43:12-05:00

Yes. It is a respect for the authority of those appointed above the rank. A 2nd Lt. is junior in both rank and tig, therefore rendering a salute is only proper.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2018 5:39 PM

2018-12-13T17:39:52-05:00

The way the regulation reads, it could be interpreted as being that officers should salute amongst each other, and enlisted should salute amongst each other as well. As such, a PV2 should salute a PV1, etc...it could also be interpreted to mean that the only time a salute is rendered is when an enlisted person salutes an officer. I did not read deeply into AR 600-25, but it seems to be vague regarding the definition of who is entitled to a salute. This really falls into traditions regarding customs and courtesies, and I believe the regulation provides some structure to that. As LTC Gene Shewbert stated, the salute is a right (military prisoners are forbidden from saluting, they have lost that right/privilege) and should be delivered with that in mind and as a sign of respect to the rank that has been bestowed on that person. With that said, although I don't have a problem with a 2LT saluting a 1LT, I think that requiring a salute among personnel that should be working as peers may, in some instances, create an undue strain, particularly when that brand new 1LT, who is still not very experienced, lets that "requirement" go to his or her head. In addition, it is sometimes just difficult to tell if the approaching officer is equal or senior or subordinate when it is LT to LT.

Response by CWO2 Matt Johnston made Dec 13 at 2018 6:22 PM

2018-12-13T18:22:10-05:00

Uh, no. Just like WO/CWO don't salute any lieutenants. Its a common courtesy among officers that you don't salute if you only have one bar. Anything advice that the rule doesn't apply.

Response by CSM David Litteral made Dec 14 at 2018 2:19 PM

2018-12-14T14:19:59-05:00

2LTs should know everyone is watching them. If they don't salute their superior officers, why should that SSG salute that 2LT who is probably 5 years younger than he or she? In other words... lead by example lieutenants- in all that you do.

Response by CPT Ted Coulter made Dec 14 at 2018 3:57 PM

2018-12-14T15:57:59-05:00

My commander told me when I was a you Lt. "Rank between Lieutenants is like virture among whores" so no you don't salute

Response by CPT Ted Coulter made Dec 14 at 2018 4:00 PM

2018-12-14T16:00:26-05:00

As my commander told me when I was a young lieutenant.....rank among Lieutenants is like virture among whores

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2018 11:20 AM

2018-12-15T11:20:28-05:00

No.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2018 5:34 PM

2018-12-15T17:34:38-05:00

See 'B' above. This isn't a debate.

Response by CSM David Porterfield made Dec 16 at 2018 12:26 PM

2018-12-16T12:26:36-05:00

Many years back I heard this "Rank amongst Lieutenants is like virtue amongst whores"

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2018 7:44 PM

2018-12-16T19:44:47-05:00

Yes

Response by Sgt Ray Shackelford made Dec 17 at 2018 4:48 PM

2018-12-17T16:48:10-05:00

There is a difference and it should be recognized and respected.

Response by SSgt Elihu Lowery made Dec 18 at 2018 10:52 AM

2018-12-18T10:52:33-05:00

The simple answer is yes the junior Officer still should salute a higher ranking Officer even if they are only 1 Grade higher. I'm sure you see Captains salute Majors and they are just grade different.

Response by SPC Todd Homman made Dec 18 at 2018 1:26 PM

2018-12-18T13:26:35-05:00

YES, it is about respect, honor and tradition. 1st LT out ranks and 2nd, period!

Response by SrA Paul Williams made Dec 18 at 2018 2:07 PM

2018-12-18T14:07:58-05:00

You clearly need help to learn why the salute is important and if you are truly this daft you need help in learning when to and when not to render the salute as well. Where did you get your degree from? No, I mean really. Because if you are having this much issue with understanding the customs and curtesy of rendering a salute you need to have your bars taken and you need to be tested to make sure that you really are Officer material.

Response by Sgt Phil Quintana made Dec 19 at 2018 6:33 PM

2018-12-19T18:33:05-05:00

In the Marine Corps tradition is king. Our officers always salute the higher rank. Our NCOs and Staff NCOs refer to each other by rank in front of jr enlisted. Rank in the Marine Corps means something. Our traditions mean something.

Response by SSG Steven Kelley made Dec 19 at 2018 9:15 PM

2018-12-19T21:15:05-05:00

There should not be a discussion. If LTs’ choose not to render proper respect because they view themselves brothers/ sisters in rank, then they are insufficient in their training and going without correction should be unheard of. Through all the years I served, I had a few Lts’ that knowingly failed to return a salute to myself or another Soldier, I can assure you, they properly learned to respectfully return honors. Comparatively a Corporal and Specialist are the same grade but; not the same rank. A Specialist who fails to render proper courtesy to an NCO because they are the same grade should not be accepted either. It should not be just because it’s a regulation, I never saluted an commissioned or warrant officer because of their rank, it is a sign of mutual respect, any Soldier who fails to render and return a proper salute disrespects themselves. In combat, you can not expect anyone to follow someone they can’t respect.

Response by Col Val Finnell, MD, MPH made Dec 20 at 2018 8:01 PM

2018-12-20T20:01:34-05:00

As an old Seargeant I knew once said, “Rank among lieutenants is like virtue among whores.”

Response by SFC Louis Willhauck, MSM, JSCM, and ARCOM made Dec 21 at 2018 9:33 AM

2018-12-21T09:33:14-05:00

Here's my old retired SFC 2 cents worth ( well, maybe just barely 1 cent if that even)... Salute. I see it as first off a greeting between warriors who share the same perils. Then as the respect for rank (the junior should initiate the salute) or the flag or whatever. Personally, (and I don't care what the "regs" say) if I want to throw a salute on someone, I will. So WHY is this an issue? Don't people have more important things to do that grouse about an whether an old CSM should salute a fresh "butter bar"? Come on... Give the blasted salute and go on about your business! If this is all you have to worry about, you have way too much free time on your hands.

On another note, if you are in a combat zone and you really don't like someone... start saluting them...

Response by 1stLt Matthew Hicks made Dec 21 at 2018 9:50 AM

2018-12-21T09:50:38-05:00

Prior to WW2, it was the standard in the USMC for 2nd Lt's to salute 1st Lt's.

Response by CW5 Dennis Stewart made Dec 21 at 2018 10:01 AM

2018-12-21T10:01:40-05:00

i do not know why this salute thing has gotten so heated. It is just a time honored tradition of saying hello. I saluted everything that walked it seems back in 1970's. Became a Branch officer in 1982 ( 2LT) and still saluted everything. Was re-branched as a WO2 in 1988 and still saluted everything. When I made W-5, it was always fun to see what young officers did when they say a W-5. They did not know what to do upon seeing a dinosaur. I always saluted first. I did have one stop me and tell me he did not know what to do as he had never seen a live W-5!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2018 10:46 AM

2018-12-21T10:46:15-05:00

Why is there any question to this? The Reg says to salute, so salute. If an Officer/WO rates a salute, respect him/her and give it. It's not like you have to give up a dollar everytime you do it. Respect the rank and follow the regs.

Now, I've seen/heard comments about how some NCO here or there who may think that with all their experience the 2LT an hour after being commissioned should salute you, but thats not how it works.

If you're a good NCO, you'll take your new LT under your wing and train him/her right before some shitty NCO messes them up (which has been done AND made that LT never trust another NCO again) and yes, I've into a few of those Officers in the past. It's really hard to retrain them. But it can be done. Officers may make the orders, but we NCO's run the show. So, give the salute, 2LT to 1LT; etc.

Response by SGT Ace Paul made Dec 22 at 2018 1:32 PM

2018-12-22T13:32:08-05:00

A comment I heard from one Lieutenant to another in the 82nd Airborne;

"Rank between lieutenants is like virtue among whores."

Response by COL Eric Ebb made Dec 22 at 2018 4:28 PM

2018-12-22T16:28:13-05:00

I was once told that rank among Lietenants was like virtue among (ladies of the evening). In other words, Lietenants don't salute Lietenants.

Response by COL Eric Ebb made Dec 22 at 2018 4:30 PM

2018-12-22T16:30:33-05:00

I believe that everyone, including 4 star Generals are to salute anyone who has received the Medal of Honor.

Response by LTC Gene Moser made Dec 22 at 2018 10:27 PM

2018-12-22T22:27:08-05:00

There is an old story in the British army of a Regimental Sergeant Major and a group of recent Subalterns fresh out of Sandhurst about to go to their positions in the regiment. He said something like this. "Gentlemen, should we meet, I will salute you and say 'sir,' and you will salute and say 'sergeant major' but you will mean it."

Response by PO2 Hank Kaczmarek made Dec 23 at 2018 5:20 PM

2018-12-23T17:20:15-05:00

Don't know about the Army. In the Marines, you salute anyone of a higher rank, that includes officers to each other. The Plt. Commanders in a Marine Rifle Company know each other well, but ya never know who's watching. Plus you're showing respect to a higher rank. That's as it should be I'd think. Then again I've been out for 35 years.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2018 7:09 PM

2018-12-23T19:09:01-05:00

salute all officers with higher rank.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2018 9:43 PM

2018-12-23T21:43:22-05:00

Regulations are pretty clear on saluting, who to salute and how to salute.

Response by SSG Harry Herres made Dec 23 at 2018 11:22 PM

2018-12-23T23:22:24-05:00

So what is the problem? You respect those who out rank you. Glad EM 's do not have that problem. R.H.I.P.

Response by SPC Rex Sanders made Dec 24 at 2018 12:28 PM

2018-12-24T12:28:17-05:00

This is not up for debate imo, you salute no matter what. It is how Brothers in Arms greet each other.

Response by CPL Sarah Verity made Dec 24 at 2018 12:39 PM

2018-12-24T12:39:35-05:00

I worked in the TOC where brass was all over. I only saw officers saluting the actual commanders, never each other. And if a higher ranking officer entered we all just called "attention" to the building (Like when my brigade commander entered the battalion building) This also applied when ordered to report for formal hearing (just meeting in the office was taken casually). The officers were casual majority of the time. We just saw each other as people. If they kept saluting each other nothing would ever get done.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2018 4:25 PM

2018-12-24T16:25:44-05:00

As I was told by 1LTs right up front, even as a cadet (SMP), "Rank amongst LTs is like virtue among whores and honor among thieves." Never was such said about any other rank, nor was it ever inferred. That said, I don't think it really extended much beyond not being expected to call a 1LT (as a 2LT) "Sir." That said, I don't recall specifically saluting any 1LTs as a 2LT. That was 20+ years ago.

Response by SPC Maurice Tillman made Dec 25 at 2018 2:40 AM

2018-12-25T02:40:04-05:00

Yes. Officers of lower rank should salute the ones of higher rank, although it doesn't always happen. It's no big deal, usually. It's "custom and a courtesy", not a requirement. Also, a salute is an outdated formality, commonly used to distinguish rank.

For example, this is much like being obliged to refer to CSM as "Sergeant Major", instead of "Sergeant". However, it is clearly written in the soldiers' manual that calling a CSM a "Sergeant" is acceptable.

If you encounter an officer of a higher grade, it's just easier to salute him and drive on. Just my two cents.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2018 6:53 AM

2018-12-25T06:53:26-05:00

Are you serious.....I’ve always heard that there are no stupid questions, but you sir proved that theory wrong

Response by PO3 Kevin Moore made Dec 25 at 2018 12:50 PM

2018-12-25T12:50:51-05:00

I've seen 1SGT and higher salute newly commissioned butter bars straight out of OCS. It's respect. You are saluting someone who the Army has seen fit to commission, regardless of personal beliefs. That being said, it is the duty of those junior grade officers to earn the respect of their subordinates.

Response by LT Conrado Mangapit made Dec 25 at 2018 7:00 PM

2018-12-25T19:00:17-05:00

Why are we wasting our time commenting on this type of question? The answer should be obvious to every person who has served or still serving in the U.S. military.

Response by MSgt Joseph Haynes made Dec 26 at 2018 12:31 PM

2018-12-26T12:31:49-05:00

Why is this even a question to debate? You salute the rank not the person. If I was given the option of not saluting those officers I felt didn't deserve that respect, there would've been a lot of officers that I wouldnt have saluted. The NCOs who feel that a 2Lt should salute them need to get their heads out of their own asses. NCOs are the backbone of every service. We are charged with maintaining good order and discipline, and that is done by showing an example for all to follow.

Response by SFC David Pope, MBA made Dec 26 at 2018 1:14 PM

2018-12-26T13:14:17-05:00

The answer in K.I.S.S. format! YES. Unless you are in a no-salute area or in a combat zone and trying not to give a sniper a target!

Response by SFC David Pope, MBA made Dec 26 at 2018 1:37 PM

2018-12-26T13:37:51-05:00

Here is a little advice from a retired SFC that hopefully makes it to the young O-1's and O-2's! When you see enlisted soldiers carrying large boxes and other heavy equipment, DO NOT ASK THEM TO SALUTE YOU! This piece of advice is more for your benefit, than that of the enlisted. I have seen young officers make this mistake, and have it witnessed by senior officers many times. All I know is when that young LT walked out of the generals office, he was a lot lighter in the posterior region of his body, and received a new assignment. He had to stand outside the building the next morning and welcome everyone from the unit to duty! I worked in HHB I Corps Artillery. We had 2 2nd LT's, 2 1st LT's, 15 Captains, 40 majors, 5 LTC, 2 Col and 1 BG. On another occasion the enlisted took matters into our own hands. We were in Korea for Team Spirit, and we formed a long line at the back of one of the tents. We spotted our victim or 2LT and one at a time headed to the motor pool. He finally caught on after a few people decided to loop around and pass him again. Salute when required, and accept salutes when rendered, and never get greedy!

Response by CWO4 Jerry Place made Dec 26 at 2018 4:52 PM

2018-12-26T16:52:51-05:00

I had a reserve sniper platoon as a CWO-3 and had two Gunnery Sgts and a Staff Sgt working for me. I had known these Staff NCOs for decades and we had consumed 100's of gallons of beer together. Yet in public, they all saluted and rendered all customs and courtesies. Of course it's appropriate and REQUIRED for a junior officer to salute a senior -- regardless of the difference in grade. Not only are you following the customs and courtesies of the service, you are training the men and women in your unit about those customs and courtesies. The training function is ceaseless and I believe good leaders understand that and are always alert to that mission.

Response by Sgt Chic Lien made Dec 27 at 2018 1:16 PM

2018-12-27T13:16:03-05:00

Guess I am old school when it comes to customs and courtesies. You respect the rank and not the individual. Salute an officer who out ranks you whether you are a 2lt etc.

Response by CPT George Ruzicka made Dec 28 at 2018 6:52 PM

2018-12-28T18:52:18-05:00

When I was a 2LT (1967) we never saluted 1LT's. When I was 1LT we did not expect 2LT's to salute us. We considered LT's the same. We did salute Captains as they generally had more time in service & certainly more experience than LT's.

Response by PFC Jd Russell made Dec 28 at 2018 11:42 PM

2018-12-28T23:42:48-05:00

I was 18 when I went in. I got out three years later. I learned respect for rank, position, and the Army way. If a CSM, 1SGT, or even SFC have to salute then a butter bar should as well. Respect starts with the uniform. It is then the rank then person. A butter bar has to learn just like a pv1. If a pv1 can be put in parade rest by a PFC or Specialist then a 1LT has to learn (some need as much reminding as possible). I work with a ret. 1sgt and I still refer to him as top (as I did in the service).

Response by 2LT Evan Arguello made Dec 29 at 2018 10:38 AM

2018-12-29T10:38:32-05:00

I don't think it's necessary for single bars (W1-W5 and O1 and O2) to salute each other when it comes to just passing each other on the sidewalk.

Response by CPL Armyvet32 Boresz made Dec 29 at 2018 5:58 PM

2018-12-29T17:58:37-05:00

I say yes. Just like a LTC should salute a Col. Or a Brig Gen should salute a Maj Gen....etc

Response by Maj Bill Bergeron made Dec 29 at 2018 10:47 PM

2018-12-29T22:47:30-05:00

An old saying in the Corps states "seniority among Lieutenants is like honor among whores, there ain't any"!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2018 12:29 PM

2018-12-30T12:29:28-05:00

Out of respect for the rank, yes a 2nd LT should salute a 1st LT.

Response by CPT Art Jacobs made Dec 30 at 2018 5:46 PM

2018-12-30T17:46:07-05:00

And, in keeping with LTC Shewbert's comment about Non-coms. If that is a common attitude, those Non-coms need to reflect on the following: If they are enlisted leaders as E-5 thru 9, do they not realize that the E-1's thru 4 look to them for guidance, but just as importantly those EM will model their superior's behavior (just like little boys mimicking their Dads). Is that was these so-called experienced Non-coms think? They are responsible for passing on time-honored military traditions and protocols to their subordinates. As a former E-5, W-2, and O-3, I ALWAYS saluted those who held a higher rank. It was not an onerous obligation. It was a privilege, and done out of pride. One of the first things that General Patton did in inheriting a demoralized army in North Africa after the disaster at the Kasserine Pass was to insist on military courtesy. After some initial resistance and even puzzlement, the soldiers eventually became known for their spirit and professionalism in the "Patton salute."

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2018 8:30 PM

2018-12-30T20:30:26-05:00

In civilian life, we say good morning, afternoon, or evening so I think it is no different between officers especially if they expect such curtsey to be offered to them. As far as saluting, the issue is less visible amongst enlisted since salutations are verbal but another sense, I also see it in the direction of a SSG who would not stand at parade rest while talking to a 1SG but expect soldiers below them to offer such respect.

Response by SGT Ernest Huerta made Dec 30 at 2018 10:57 PM

2018-12-30T22:57:53-05:00

A 1LT outranks a 2LT, thus the 2LT will render a hand salute (right hand) and the proper greeting
of the day: (Good morning, Sir, Good afternoon, Sir, Good evening, Sir and Good night, Sir. The 2LT will hold his salute until the 1LT returns the salute. Give a crisp salute that Snaps with the proper
greeting AND THIS IS HOW YOU WILL BE REMEMBERED, especially by an officer from your unit.
Give a sloppy salute and garbled greeting (perhaps because your mouth is full of chewing gum, etc)
and THAT ALSO WILL BE HOW YOU ARE REMEMBERED! And remember even Generals & Admirals have to salute a Flag Officer higher in rank than themselves.
Exceptions. If you are in a combat area where you may be observed, it might be SAFER not to salute.
Snipers take fiendish delights in shooting officers and RTOs with their antennas sticking up and
waving around.

Response by SPC James Seigars made Dec 31 at 2018 12:08 AM

2018-12-31T00:08:45-05:00

I always saluted any male officer I came into contact with, but wasn’t aware for many years that a female could not only be an officer, but a commander. When I went to my second AIT (out of four) I learned both lessons real quick when I was going to the dfac to eat on my first day of school. A female walked out of the building and I just walked by and said “good morning”. She stopped, called me back and asked me, “good morning, what Soldier?” That is when I saw the Captain’s rank on her headgear. I was flabbergasted and said, “good morning, Sir?” Too which she replied, “Do I look like a SIR to you?” (She didn’t). Of course I dig myself deeper by saying, “No, Sir...miss?” “About that time a SSG came out and saluted her, saying “Morning, Ma’m”. She called him back and looked at me saying, “did you hear that? It’s Ma’m, Soldier.” I replied, “yes, ma’m“. “Good”, she said and told the SSG to make me do push-ups until she got tired, then left. Needless to say I never made that mistake again and always saluted every officer I saw after that (even out of uniform for awhile). So it is better to give them the respect & courtesy due now while you are not on their radar than to wait until you get on it and have them be your supervisor & give you the crappiest troops & details because you didn’t want to show them their due respect.

Response by MAJ Charles Cozzens made Dec 31 at 2018 8:28 PM

2018-12-31T20:28:13-05:00

Virtue among LTs? Are their not better subjects to discuss? I once was a 2LT and do not recall saluting another LT. I did salute a Navy LTjg once as I was on a Naval base but more importantly,I served with some fine NCO's that taught me a lot about the respect that is earned by being competent and respectful to those that have their act together.

Response by CH (LTC) Robert Leroe made Jan 1 at 2019 9:31 AM

2019-01-01T09:31:56-05:00

Sure. As a Chaplain, some soldiers thought they weren't required to salute me, and a few got chewed-out by NCOs who observed their failure to render military courtesy. When as a 2LT I saluted a 1LT I felt that the 1LT was obligingly returning the salute but I could sense some bemusement.

Response by Sgt Gerald Henthorn made Jan 2 at 2019 1:52 AM

2019-01-02T01:52:19-05:00

Yes.

Response by LTC Richard Garza made Jan 2 at 2019 12:07 PM

2019-01-02T12:07:17-05:00

Bottom Line: YES. That silver/black bar lets everyone know that we have slightly more experience and training. It tells the world that we are no longer a 2LT. If 2LT don't salute them, it again shows that the added respect earned is not warranted since not even a 2LT will salute.

Response by Cpl Kurt Huber made Jan 3 at 2019 12:25 PM

2019-01-03T12:25:04-05:00

I cannot believe this is a question.
Should a LtCol salute a Colonel?
Come on people, we know better.

Response by COL Dana Hampton made Jan 7 at 2019 8:11 PM

2019-01-07T20:11:44-05:00

As a retired officer and having been through the LT ranks, albeit quite a few years ago, I and my colleagues viewed rank among LTs much like virtue among prostitutes...there isn’t any.

That said, if a 2LT desires to salute a 1LT, then it is certainly within regulation. (But don’t be surprised if you get a snickering returned salute...

Response by MAJ Mark N. made Jan 11 at 2019 12:05 PM

2019-01-11T12:05:09-05:00

Salute! Let’s keep so traditions alive, pls

Response by SPC Mara Manzer (Spurgin) made Jan 11 at 2019 9:55 PM

2019-01-11T21:55:44-05:00

What people fail to understand is that you are saluting the rank, not the person. Even if the two are more casually acquainted as both being Lieutenants the fact is that the 1LT is to be saluted by the 2LT.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2019 1:13 PM

2019-01-14T13:13:20-05:00

I always saluted, but from time to time it was galling to do so.

Response by SPC Stephen Walsh made Jan 15 at 2019 12:18 PM

2019-01-15T12:18:37-05:00

Of Course they should. As has been said you salute the rank. Not the person. Otherwise few Officers would ever receive a salute.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2019 10:49 AM

2019-01-24T10:49:26-05:00

Not even sure why this is a question. We don't get to follow only the rules and regulations we like. Granted there are situations where LTs are peers and less formal with each other, but it's up to them to sort it out when others are around and watching. I would not hesitate to respectfully mention it if I witnessed such an action. I often chaffed at saluting young, inexperienced LTs, whose messes I had to clean up on a daily basis, but to not do so would have resulted in a breakdown of order and discipline. Especially in a joint service environment. Stick to the regs, they are there for a reason.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2019 2:38 PM

2019-01-25T14:38:22-05:00

A saying I always enjoyed was "There is no honor among thieves and Lieutenants" I don't see LT's saluting each other very often. I rarely did this if ever in my 2LT days. However, the proper stance from customs and curtsies is the 2LT should render a salute to the 1LT.

Response by SPC Jonathan Bettandorff made Jan 25 at 2019 3:50 PM

2019-01-25T15:50:49-05:00

In regulation yes I agree b/c that 2Lt earn the rank to 1Lt how is that showing by sample that’s like saying a SGM or any CWO don’t have to sulate them because they are kids still

Response by Cpl Geoff Smith made Jan 26 at 2019 3:33 PM

2019-01-26T15:33:30-05:00

ALWAYS salute an officer of higher rank! They've earned that rank and it's honors. When I was in the Corps, a 1st Lt was superior to a 2nd Lt.

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made Jan 26 at 2019 6:41 PM

2019-01-26T18:41:07-05:00

The fact that this question is still being asked indicates (a) a lack of knowledge of regulations, and (b) an almost snowflake-like interest in ego issues. If it ranks you, salute it.

Response by MSgt Peter Vatistas made Jan 26 at 2019 11:15 PM

2019-01-26T23:15:07-05:00

Absolutely. Officers must salute officers of higher rank. Period. If they don't, they should be reminded of the meaning of a salute.

Response by SFC David Clark made Jan 26 at 2019 11:15 PM

2019-01-26T23:15:10-05:00

Of course that 2nd LT should, that 1st Lt is still senior regardless if it's one paygrade Rank is Rank.

Response by MSG Loren Tomblin made Jan 27 at 2019 12:02 PM

2019-01-27T12:02:28-05:00

I was stationed at Ft Campbell back in the day. As I was walking to my car from the commissary a 2LT approached me in passing. I said "By your leave Sir." He made the remark that that was not a salute. He learned his lesson for the day but I was gentle.

Response by SFC Wade Adams made Jan 27 at 2019 5:14 PM

2019-01-27T17:14:21-05:00

True, there are regulations and as soldiers, we must follow. Yes, in accordance with regulations, a 2LT should salute a 1LT, but to caveat on this for the people who are regulation minded and not see a sense of humor in the comment I’m about to make, it would be like a PVT/E-2 standing at parade rest for a PFC.

Response by SSG Brian MacBain made Jan 27 at 2019 5:31 PM

2019-01-27T17:31:24-05:00

Sorry to sound mean or critical, but that is one stupid question. If you really needed to ask this question, your answer is in AR-670-1 (if I remember that AR correctly).

Response by Louis Williams made Jan 27 at 2019 6:00 PM

2019-01-27T18:00:27-05:00

Respect the chain of command and salute. When an Officer is out of character in his uniform, seize the moment, perform your duty and move on with no offense taken. When the salute reaches the top, you will see it does not stop there, the salute is returned back down the chain. The salute recognizes honor among soldiers of war as a respect from one comrade to another. I personally respect the active duty far more than today's non combat, peacetime, men and women in uniform, although I'm not one to discern what are wartime activities from peacetime when it comes to who threw the first stone and why; I'm just referring to the literal results to defining living from dying when thrust into bombs bursting in the air and after its all over. When you salute someone its because you know why, but always salute a higher ranking Commissioned Officer than your self, in uniform.

Response by LTC Jesse Edwards made Jan 27 at 2019 10:11 PM

2019-01-27T22:11:01-05:00

A second lieutenant should only salute a first lieutenant if the 1LT is buying the beer.

But seriously, whatever the reg says.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2019 7:44 AM

2019-01-28T07:44:08-05:00

Yes

Response by LCDR Robert Russnogle made Jan 28 at 2019 2:09 PM

2019-01-28T14:09:01-05:00

Of course. It is a mutual respect for one another. To try to avoid the salute, for any reason by anyone, is disrespectful.

Response by PV2 Stephen Walker made Jan 28 at 2019 7:06 PM

2019-01-28T19:06:30-05:00

They would salute a Colonel or a General. Why not salute any senior officer. I believe it's even in the soldiers hand book passed out the 1st week of basic.

Response by SGT Robert Martin made Jan 29 at 2019 5:24 AM

2019-01-29T05:24:58-05:00

Not sure how this is even a question. Yes assuming they are in the rear, and not down range. Two reasons 1 because the military of the United States is are professional fighting force that follows regulations 2 even more importantly because our leaders lead by example, and if the officers don't follow regulations I guarantee the enlisted will notice.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2019 4:53 PM

2019-01-29T16:53:20-05:00

"Most see a LT as a LT regardless of being a 1st or 2nd. How do you all feel about this?"
Your citation is correct, however, the above quote has more leaks than Wiki.
Do you think an Army 1, 2, 3, 4 star don't salute each other because you know, a "General is a General"?

Response by LTC Doug Fenwick made Jan 29 at 2019 4:59 PM

2019-01-29T16:59:35-05:00

Damn right they should salute.

Response by LCpl Severin Summers made Jan 29 at 2019 5:22 PM

2019-01-29T17:22:44-05:00

On my first day as a brand new 2LT attending the Basic course at FBGA ,I saluted a 1LT in passing,he very courteously and even kindly called me back and in a business tone said ,"We lieutenants don't salute each other." He was instructing in a positive tone ,not correcting or reprimanding. That was helpful throughout my career in that it taught me how to correct in a positive manner and to recognize when friendly advice was the best teacher.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2019 7:09 PM

2019-01-29T19:09:05-05:00

I would salute one.

Response by SSgt Terry P. made Jan 29 at 2019 10:01 PM

2019-01-29T22:01:16-05:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member Damn,Lt,this post is still around?Thought it would have been deleted by now.

Response by LTC Gary Earls made Jan 30 at 2019 10:49 AM

2019-01-30T10:49:20-05:00

I was told in OCS that when we were Second Lieutenant and we saw a First Lieutenant, we were to salute him. I get to my first assignment at Fort McClellan and report in and I was taken to the Brigade Adjutant who was a First Lieutenant. I saluted him. Caught him by surprise. :-) He did return my salute and told me to call him by his first name. :-)

Response by 1stSgt Ken Horne made Jan 30 at 2019 11:00 AM

2019-01-30T11:00:02-05:00

Well then, Should a Lt. Col salute a Col?

Response by MAJ Tracy Pim made Jan 30 at 2019 1:18 PM

2019-01-30T13:18:31-05:00

I always did just to piss them off........i was an O-1 over 4 years.......they 're an O-2 with 18 months of service......and a salute rendered must be returned!!!!

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2019 1:30 PM

2019-01-30T13:30:47-05:00

Yes.

Response by CW3 Dick McManus made Jan 30 at 2019 6:24 PM

2019-01-30T18:24:37-05:00

Israel is spying on and slandering Americans

The explosive undercover documentary produced by Al Jazeera’s investigative unit exposes how US Israeli lobby groups – including the Foundation for Defense of Democracies and the Israel on Campus Coalition – work closely with the Israeli government to spy on and slander American citizens who speak out for Palestinian rights.
Here is the link to the film The Lobby - USA which has been censored. We are in a psychological war with Zionists who violate the human rights of Palestinians.
Parts one and two:
https://www.electronicintifada.net/content/watch-film-israel-lobby-didnt-want-you-see/25876
Parts three and four:
https://electronicintifada.net/content/watch-final-episodes-al-jazeera-film-us-israel-lobby/25896

Watch the film the Israel lobby didn't want you to see

Censored Al Jazeera film is now online.

Response by SGT Kyle Bickley made Jan 31 at 2019 2:33 PM

2019-01-31T14:33:45-05:00

Dah!

Response by SSG Scott Rimer made Feb 1 at 2019 9:31 AM

2019-02-01T09:31:48-05:00

This should not be a question. They say there are no dumb questions but since when is doing what is right when nobody is looking something up for discussion? Every board I ever appeared in included, the question of, “ define discipline”. The answer was always the same, “doing what’s right when nobody is looking”

Response by SMSgt John Stein made Feb 1 at 2019 3:34 PM

2019-02-01T15:34:59-05:00

Yes they need the practice. V

Response by CPT Phil Herman made Feb 1 at 2019 6:54 PM

2019-02-01T18:54:24-05:00

It doesn't matter how you obtained your commission: ROTC, OCS, A College program / USMA or even a direct commission as they do for doctors, priests and lawyers - You are now a commissioned officer in the military. As such, you are due the respect afforded your rank and your position in the military. Outside of a combat area, war zone, or when orders are issued to curtail salutes, enlisted and junior grade officers initiate the salute to the higher rank with only one exception - recipients of the medal of honor. Medal of honor recipients, regardless of rank, will receive the salute and then return it from any rank. Only a fool would require salute protocols in an open war zone where the enemy can observe and differentiate differences in rank. My commission was earned through a 4 year ROTC program and I was called to active duty a year and a half later when butter bars were needed for Vietnam. Hell, I saluted first sergeants while in the states - mostly out of fear - for they were the real backbone of our infantry. In country, I did not want my troops to salute - life expectancy of officers was measured in seconds.

Response by 1SG Ernest Stull made Feb 3 at 2019 8:19 AM

2019-02-03T08:19:08-05:00

Yes he out ranks you period.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2019 8:34 AM

2019-02-03T08:34:09-05:00

All soldiers should accept the fact that we should always render the salute to our seniors by rank not age, Unless while in a combat or hazard zone that would identify the leader for the enemy =, Some NCOs have been heard to say "I have more time in grade that that (officer) has in life or service, It is our responsibility as leaders to set the example and show our subordinates and on occasion our coworkers that we are not above the regulations set forth. As a 1SG I always saluted ALL officers as a show of respect to the grade and not necessarily the individual wearing it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2019 5:56 PM

2019-02-03T17:56:06-05:00

Of course. Always salute out of respect for the rank. If the more senior person asks for you not to salute them, then respect their choice. It's as simple as that.

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made Feb 6 at 2019 12:05 PM

2019-02-06T12:05:49-05:00

Yes, it's a sign of respect, the other person didn't reach 1st Lt by not following the same for his superiors

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2019 8:24 AM

2019-02-07T08:24:55-05:00

Yes. The rule I always applied with my fellow Lts was was this, “if it’s just us, I don’t care. If there are enlisted or higher ranking officers around, you better do it because it’s the right thing to do.”

Response by SPC Clayton Knudsen made Feb 15 at 2019 11:46 AM

2019-02-15T11:46:16-05:00

Remember you salute the rank, not the person.

Response by Sgt Michael Betts made Feb 16 at 2019 2:01 PM

2019-02-16T14:01:06-05:00

We've all had officers who were an honor and a pleasure to salute as a sign of respect. We've probably had a few we saluted only because we HAD to do so as a matter of regulations. As to the latter, if you're in a combat zone, salute them at every opportunity and the enemy will take care of things for you.

Response by Sgt Michael Betts made Feb 16 at 2019 2:09 PM

2019-02-16T14:09:53-05:00

We've all had the kind of officers to whom we rendered a salute as a sign of respect. We've also likely had a few officers to whom the salute is rendered only because regulations require it. As far as the few in the latter category, if you're in a combat zone, salute him/her at every opportunity and the enemy will take care of things for you.

Response by LTC Martin Glynn made Feb 21 at 2019 6:52 PM

2019-02-21T18:52:44-05:00

For this particular question, I'd have to say, "It depends," because it is truly situational. When I was a Second Lieutenant in the 82nd Airborne Division in 1990-1991, the First Lieutenants did not allow us to salute them. Any attempt to do so by a new 2LT was quickly stopped by the 1LT saying something like, "Put your arm down, cherry, we're all LT's." But after that, the 1LT's always went out of their way to help the 2LT's. In general, the 1LT's were keenly aware that they didn't have that much more experience than a 2LT, and that all LT's needed mentoring by the leaders who did have a lot of experience: the Platoon Sergeants, Section NCOIC's, and Jumpmasters in the battalion. So the 1LT's were very good about steering 2LT's toward the specific NCO's who could teach them particular lessons.

That being said, I can see it being different elsewhere. For example, in the 82nd in the early 1990's, I never saw a 1LT serving as a company commander, because the Division was very strict about company commanders being Officer Advanced Course (OAC) graduates. However, if a given company did have a 1LT commanding it, I'd expect to see the PL's and XO's saluting that 1LT just as they would a CPT.

Response by SSG David Forler made Feb 26 at 2019 5:24 PM

2019-02-26T17:24:58-05:00

Yes! The second LT is a lower Rank, period.

Response by SGT Bill Abers made Feb 27 at 2019 7:55 AM

2019-02-27T07:55:37-05:00

How can this be an issue, or is part of the pc. watering down of everything the 1st lt. exceeds the 2nd. in rank, experience, and responsibilities Respect is earned, required, given. This is what makes us different from the pc .civilian life. Thanks for reading.

Response by SSG Larry R. Jones made Feb 27 at 2019 9:28 AM

2019-02-27T09:28:23-05:00

It is a time honored duty and a regulation for structure of our armed forces that goes back to the time of the Romans. A 2nd Lt. Should salute a 1st. Lt.

Response by Keith Nadig made Feb 27 at 2019 10:43 AM

2019-02-27T10:43:38-05:00

Back when I was a young lieutenant, there was an adage that "rank among lieutenants was like virtue among prostitutes; there isn't any." In my personal view (which may or may not be correct) the reason for that was the rather rapid and almost certain promotion from 2LT to 1LT. With that said, the the 1LT is the company commander, the 2LT BETTER salute him/her; as it re-enforces the company commander's authority (if the PL/XO doesn't salute the company commander, why should I?).

Response by LCDR Thomas Roddy made Feb 27 at 2019 1:44 PM

2019-02-27T13:44:15-05:00

We salute our seniors. It’s really as simple as that.

Response by SPC Curtis Kennedy made Feb 28 at 2019 11:23 AM

2019-02-28T11:23:23-05:00

Yes a 2LT should salute a 1ST regardless of the personal feeling involved

Response by SGT Michael Bever made Feb 28 at 2019 8:24 PM

2019-02-28T20:24:19-05:00

2LTs should also salute E7s and above that are in command positions. They teach them how to survive. I speak as a grunt, this may not apply to rear echelon personnel.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2019 9:31 PM

2019-02-28T21:31:32-05:00

Absolutely salute. The only time it's acceptable to deviate from that regulation is from Warrant Officer to Warrant Officer. That was addressed in a DA Pam I just can't seem to find.

Response by LCDR Mike Scott Singh made Mar 1 at 2019 9:38 AM

2019-03-01T09:38:20-05:00

It is a requirement of the UCMJ. However those among certain units are not allowed to render salutes because in the field it gets them killed.

Response by COL Jon Lopey made Mar 1 at 2019 8:44 PM

2019-03-01T20:44:33-05:00

1LT: When I was a 2LT I saluted first lieutenants. I once had a company commander who was a 1LT. I remember attending OCS at Fort Benning and our TAC officers were 1LTs, all of whom had considerable line company time, mostly in combat arms branches. When commissioned I saluted them (as did my peers) because they deserved respect by virtue of their rank, experience, and achievements. Many were Airborne Rangers and most had years of experience and many were ready to make captain. COL L

Response by 1st Lt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2019 1:39 AM

2019-03-03T01:39:08-05:00

I have an easier question... Should a 2LT pulling gate-guard duty salute a 1LT in civilian clothes? The CAC says “LT.” The only way they would know is to ask every LT coming through the gate. For this reason, LTs shouldn’t salute other LTs.

Response by SGT James Colbert made Mar 3 at 2019 5:43 PM

2019-03-03T17:43:12-05:00

The only place where i have seen Lt not salute each other along with other ranks such Majors and LTC is in the medical corps and in hospitals

Response by SGT James Colbert made Mar 3 at 2019 5:45 PM

2019-03-03T17:45:39-05:00

To add to my earlier comment. Respect is earned not given by vietue of rank. Combat Arms units area good example of this..coming from10th Mountain

Response by LTC Angie Habina made Mar 3 at 2019 10:34 PM

2019-03-03T22:34:27-05:00

As a young 2LT we had a 1LT who would introduce himself as “senior 1LT promotable.....”
Yeah, okay. If you through your rank around and over your peers, it comes around to bite you.
Yes, a 1LT out ranks a 2LT, but everyone is a LT. If one is in command, yes, salute. When turning over a formation, yes, salute.
Figure out the difference and under currents of positional and personal power. Develop emotional intelligence. Worry less about if a 2LT is saluting you.

Response by SPC Fred Scholl made Mar 3 at 2019 11:08 PM

2019-03-03T23:08:37-05:00

This is no different than a Captain saluting a Major...a 1LT and a 2LT, like the Major and Captain are one grade apart. Salute and stop whining.

Response by CDR Tom Davy made Mar 4 at 2019 2:21 PM

2019-03-04T14:21:53-05:00

I would say "yeah" the butter bar should salute the 1st LT. My first officer salute was from a WO who saw that I was a Mustang Ensign (0-1) and gave me a nice salute; we both smiled as he knew he was my first officer salute.

Response by SPC Earl Semler made Mar 4 at 2019 4:04 PM

2019-03-04T16:04:31-05:00

Yes, just as a WO should salute a new 2nd LT. You are saluting the rank and honoring that rank. Just as you should address them as Sir/Maam.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2019 8:20 PM

2019-03-04T20:20:09-05:00

Yes!

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2019 11:24 AM

2019-03-05T11:24:47-05:00

I have heard that before, an Lt is an Lt. I hate that. I used to get on the 2Lts for not saluting 1Lts whenever I saw it. Just keep chipping away at traditions, small things don't matter right, and soon enough the big things don't matter either.

Response by SSG J F Texas made Mar 7 at 2019 1:13 AM

2019-03-07T01:13:04-05:00

Is this really a serious question?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2019 6:15 AM

2019-03-07T06:15:17-05:00

Outside of combat, why on earth wouldn't they? This is the same as saying E-1s and E-2s are the same as E-3s...wrong! I can't think of any reason for a general policy change, except ONE; NOBODY salutes ANY Lt. And we reserve that honor for captains and above.

Response by SSG Steve Edwards made Mar 7 at 2019 8:36 AM

2019-03-07T08:36:48-05:00

Simple YES
O1 is junior in grade.

Response by LTC Forrest Brandt made Mar 7 at 2019 4:38 PM

2019-03-07T16:38:51-05:00

The phrase we learned early on in the sixties was "Honor among lieutenants is like virtue among prostitutes." Perhaps the fact that we were only 2nd Lieutenants for one year and a captain by year three created the notion that there was no need to salute a First Lieutenant. Add to that that the overwhelming majority of us were two-years-and-out officers.

Most of us were First Lieutenants upon arriving in Vietnam, in fact, I have a hard time recalling meeting any 2nd Lieutenants during that year. By the time I left in August of 69 Lieutenants were often not saluting Captains, especially if the Captain had been promoted toward the end of his tour.

This is about the time that the field army was beginning to suffer. Troops were refusing to salute any officer, let alone a Lieutenant. Stories of fragging began to become more frequent, Article 15s were becoming a burden on the administrative sections and court martials increased notably.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Mar 20 at 2019 7:44 AM

2019-03-20T07:44:35-04:00

I can see that, quite clearly, half the universe on here has chimed on about this one here...that being said, wherever I was, or had to go, it was always done, as well as insisted on, plus, I always did, purely as a matter of habit and conditioned reflex, end of story, guys, honest....

Response by SrA Michael Webster made Mar 20 at 2019 8:33 PM

2019-03-20T20:33:21-04:00

*blink* Um, yes . . . At the very least that butterbar survived to get promoted and didn't end up as chow for a MSgt somewhere . . .

Response by SGT Derek Blackshire made Mar 26 at 2019 3:16 PM

2019-03-26T15:16:21-04:00

Absolutely yes

Response by Lt Col Julie Harmon made Apr 2 at 2019 1:24 AM

2019-04-02T01:24:25-04:00

A salute is a recognition of Service Member/Warrior to Service Member/Warrior. It's a gesture of respect and trust. Whether we salute each other perceiving a place of 'power' or 'obedience' that's your story and Ego. Preferably (IMO) it's a mutual recognition; I honor the light and strength within you my Brother/Sister in Arms; 'Namaste" or "Sat Nam" ... I SEE (RESPECT) YOU." We salute in recognition of our shared mission to make the ultimate sacrifice (of self is easy...family and community; greater).

Response by SFC Tom Jones made Apr 2 at 2019 11:23 PM

2019-04-02T23:23:25-04:00

The regs say it all! When I was on active duty and I seen people not doing what the Regs said I would walk up to them and would salute them and would ask them if they understood what is required of them.

Response by SFC Tracy Scott made Apr 18 at 2019 11:27 AM

2019-04-18T11:27:54-04:00

Let's break this down,
first and foremost, we need to distinguish seniority.
Within our military application, we find several variations within the rank structure,
a Warrant Officer has an Identifying component of
W-1, W-2, W-3, W-4, and W-5 each holds it's own ranking level,
just as a Lieutenant, the identifying component changes formats
with a 2nd Lieutenant being of a lower rank to the 1st Lieutenant,

So with that said, we first and foremost should always return to the proper military etiquette, by simply addressing each of the military ranks by a formal address, We do not salute simply in an exchange of honor, we salute as a privileged gesture of respect and trust among soldiers, Just as when we address Enlisted ranks from Private to junior Nco's and Nco's each is applied by a designated identifier which shows commitment, abilities, and professionalism when addressing personnel.

Response by WO1 Mike Dwyer made Apr 19 at 2019 11:11 AM

2019-04-19T11:11:26-04:00

Absolutely, always salute a superior. My father, who served prior to WW2 as enlisted and then WW2 and Korea as an officer, taught me "When in doubt, salute. It's better to be wrong than disrespectful."

Response by SGT Scott Bailey made Apr 19 at 2019 12:21 PM

2019-04-19T12:21:38-04:00

Yes! They are not the same. A brigadier general salutes a major general. They are both generals, but all are different O grades.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2019 8:41 AM

2019-04-20T08:41:46-04:00

Salute the rank. Salute the position. As NCO we enforce and practise regs and traditions.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2019 3:13 PM

2019-04-20T15:13:16-04:00

When I was commissioned, I returned to OCS as an instructor a few months later. I saluted the 1LT that had been my Platoon TAC. He told me quietly in private that it wasn't necessary. Something about "no honor among thieves".......
So I never did it again.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2019 11:22 PM

2019-04-20T23:22:20-04:00

Should a Lieutenant Colonel salute a Colonel?

Response by Maj Donald Kappel made Apr 21 at 2019 12:06 PM

2019-04-21T12:06:27-04:00

Yes. No question about it in the Marine Corps.

Response by LTC John Bush made Apr 21 at 2019 2:05 PM

2019-04-21T14:05:55-04:00

This issue has been around forever. It was not new when I was a butter bar in the early 60's and will be around long after I am dead. The practical reality is when you sign on with any organization you buy into their culture and rules or you will not do well. I don't care if it is the military or humble food service. If a server in my restaurant does not show up clean neat and properly dressed or does not render proper customer service they are gone. Same for almost any other job. Quit whining, bloom where you are planted and do your job. If you have a problem saluting it is YOUR personal problem and you need to get your head right

Response by SPC William Szkromiuk made Apr 21 at 2019 2:19 PM

2019-04-21T14:19:14-04:00

Kind of like a Lieutenant Colonel does not have to salute (or obey commands) from a Colonel? I mean he is almost a Colonel right?
WTFO?? Yeah, I was not an officer so I don't get it. Huh. What is this the snowflake ARMY??

Response by LCDR Ernest Heassler made Apr 21 at 2019 7:00 PM

2019-04-21T19:00:15-04:00

Salutes should be given as regs and protocol demand. Saluting seniors never bothered me, even when I was a seaman and had to salute everything that moved...or so it seemed. I laugh now because years later after being commissioned as a Chief Warrant Officer, I came to realize that I was returning way more salutes than I ever had to make when enlisted. I've always considered the salute to be an acknowledgement of respect of the senior-subordinate relationship between ranks. That doesn't mean that I always respected the dipstick that I saluted, but I certainly respected his/her position. Yes, 2nd LTs should salute 1st LTs.

Response by CWO3 John Bell made Apr 22 at 2019 6:32 PM

2019-04-22T18:32:16-04:00

I was in the Navy for 22 years and I never seen it happen. It would be like a W2 saluting a W4, never happens. I would usually acknowledge them by saying hello.

Response by CAPT Steve Kelley made Apr 23 at 2019 6:26 PM

2019-04-23T18:26:56-04:00

The 1lt is senior to the 2lt. It’s just that simple, and so of course the 2lt should salute. To not do so diminishes good order and discipline and erodes proper military bearing.

Response by SCPO William Akin made Apr 24 at 2019 8:56 AM

2019-04-24T08:56:12-04:00

"If you can't move it, paint it. If it has a switchblade knife, salute it" (-Tom T. Hall- Salute to a Switchblade Knife)

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2019 7:46 AM

2019-04-26T07:46:29-04:00

The answer is no unless the 1LT is the commander. I know the regs and all, however, there are traditions and the tradition is that an LT is an LT.

Response by Cpl Geoff Smith made Apr 27 at 2019 12:42 PM

2019-04-27T12:42:45-04:00

Of course! What's to debate?

Response by CPL Steve Freeman made Apr 27 at 2019 1:30 PM

2019-04-27T13:30:36-04:00

Should a Lt. Colonel salute a full bird? Should a major salute a captain? Should a brigadier general salute a major general? Should a Lt General salute a 4 star? Did Creighton Abrams salute Eisenhower? And my last and final question: What does the regulation say? Therein lies your answer.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2019 5:36 PM

2019-04-28T17:36:39-04:00

Yes. Period.

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made May 6 at 2019 12:19 PM

2019-05-06T12:19:10-04:00

I just came here to say that it's amazing that this post is still active after 4 years of being the #1 RP meme. The internet points CPT Private RallyPoint Member has gotten out of this thing probably sustains his RP rank all by themselves.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made May 6 at 2019 2:17 PM

2019-05-06T14:17:57-04:00

I was informed in Basic that any soldier no matter their rank, officer or no, saluted any senior officer and a 2nd Lt. most definitely is lower than a 1st Lt.

Response by SSG Joseph VanDyck made May 12 at 2019 2:42 PM

2019-05-12T14:42:36-04:00

Yes.

Response by SGT J M Porters made May 22 at 2019 8:16 AM

2019-05-22T08:16:16-04:00

You have to much time on your hand to ask this question. Guys the military is not a social club. It is an organization that operates on training discipline and order. We salute because it is at the core of our military worldwide and it is an instance. We may salute out of habit but there is more to this than social preferences. We are not allowed personal preferences. We salute out of respect and requirement.

Response by CPT Anthony Forstner made May 22 at 2019 4:35 PM

2019-05-22T16:35:54-04:00

It's kind of an understood rule of etiquette not to but the short answer to that question is easy, yes. At the end of the day, if you allow regulations to be interpreted as optional not only does it set a bad example but erodes discipline over time. That being said, we as lieutenants didn't salute one another

Response by CPT David Starkey made May 22 at 2019 7:23 PM

2019-05-22T19:23:59-04:00

It depends on the service. I was the first lieutenant talkin to the second Lieutenant who was in charge of the ammo supply point. Both Army. 2 marine Lts walked up and broke into the conversation wanting to store ammo overnight. The asp oic told them to go into the office. The marine 1Lt then arrogantly started " in the marines, 2nd lt salute 1 lt." The oic turned around, stated this is the Army and we don't.
I am the oic of the asp. Go to my office and wait. Then got in my truck and took an unnecessary trip to the bunkers to help me unload.

Response by PO1 Todd B. made May 22 at 2019 7:44 PM

2019-05-22T19:44:22-04:00

If a rank is superior to yours, you salute. PERIOD. There is no question on this so why it even comes up is beyond me. That would be the same for us Navy as asking if a Lt. Commander should Salute a Commander. Or a Lieutenant JG should Salute a Lieutenant.

What about Admirals or Generals? Same thing.. Or heck how about Warrant Officer 1 vs Warrant Officer 2?

It does not matter if the rank is 'similar' in level.. you salute the higher rank..

Response by SPC Justin Currey made May 22 at 2019 10:05 PM

2019-05-22T22:05:13-04:00

Sure. They should salute each other all night over a bottle of wine with barry manilow playing down by the fire. Who gives a shit?

Response by Pvt Michael Todd made May 23 at 2019 8:34 AM

2019-05-23T08:34:05-04:00

1sLT paid his dues to earn the rank and deserves to be saluted in uniform. No exceptions except when to do so could get him snipered.

Response by PV2 Sammy Salcido made May 23 at 2019 12:21 PM

2019-05-23T12:21:53-04:00

A salute is earned if you are below such rank, please give it as protocol and respect

Response by SFC Jose A Hernandez made May 24 at 2019 3:44 AM

2019-05-24T03:44:15-04:00

WTF!!!!!!!! From a Private to CSM and based on AR 600-25 saluting an officer is required regardless , from a 2Lt to a general. Salutes are not required to be rendered or returned when the senior or subordinate, or both are:
1. In civilian attire.
2. Engaged in routine work if the salute would interfere.
3. Carrying articles with both hands
4. Working as a member of a detail
5. Engaged in sports
6. Social functions where saluting would present a safety hazard.
7. In public places such as theaters, churches, and in public conveyances.
8. In the ranks of a formation

When do you salute inside a building?
1. When reporting to your commander
2. When reporting to a pay officer
3. When reporting to a military board
4. At an indoor ceremony
5. At sentry duty indoors

Can you salute as a prisoner?
No, you have lost the right to salute
4-6. Military courtesy is not a one-way street. Enlisted personnel are expected to be courteous to officers and likewise officers are expected to return the courtesy. Mutual respect is a vital part of military courtesy. In the final analysis, military courtesy is the respect shown to each other by members of the same profession. Some of the Army's more common courtesies include rendering the hand salute, standing at attention or parade rest, or even addressing others by their rank.
4-7. The salute is not simply an honor exchanged. It is a privileged gesture of respect and trust among soldiers. Remember the salute is not only prescribed by regulation but is also recognition of each other's commitment, abilities, and professionalism.
4-9. The salute is widely misunderstood outside the military. Some consider it to be a gesture of servility since the junior extends a salute to the senior, but we know that it is quite the opposite. The salute is an expression that recognizes each other as a member of the profession of arms; that they have made a personal commitment of self-sacrifice to preserve our way of life. The fact that the junior extends the greeting first is merely a point of etiquette-a salute extended or returned makes the same statement.
4-13. All soldiers in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled (by grade) to a salute except when it is inappropriate or impractical (in public conveyances such as planes and buses, in public places such as inside theaters, or when driving a vehicle).
4-16. Military courtesy shows respect and reflects self-discipline. Consistent and proper military courtesy is an indicator of unit discipline, as well. Soldiers demonstrate courtesy in the way we address officers or NCOs of superior rank.
Sincerely, Jose A. Hernandez, SFC, USAR, Retired 39 years of Proud Military Service
Vietnam and Operation Iraqi Freedom Veteran

Response by Col Paddy Mc made May 24 at 2019 11:08 AM

2019-05-24T11:08:23-04:00

Absolutely yes. A junior ranking service person always initiated a salute to a senior officer.

Response by TSgt Juan Riojas made May 24 at 2019 11:42 AM

2019-05-24T11:42:44-04:00

Respect should be honored irregardless of whether you are a First or Second LT. I also believe if when you are out of uniform and you recognize an officer in uniform, respectfully saluting is not manadatory but if you do should be equally recognized by that officer...

Response by 1LT Leon Chitman Sr. made May 24 at 2019 11:47 AM

2019-05-24T11:47:05-04:00

Yes, you should salute. It's required by rank and it shows respect to the uniform.

Response by SMSgt James Connolly made May 24 at 2019 1:03 PM

2019-05-24T13:03:22-04:00

Rules are rules! Follow them!

Response by SPC Chris Ison made May 24 at 2019 4:04 PM

2019-05-24T16:04:50-04:00

What part of saluting a higher ranking officer do you not understand?

Response by LTC Gene Moser made May 26 at 2019 9:04 PM

2019-05-26T21:04:07-04:00

I think I may have already responded to this. It might not be totally apropos, but. I was a National Guard 1LT, having been on active duty for a two year tour, including a year in Korea, 2nd I/D. I was at the nine month Advance Course and everybody in my section, about 30 were captains, except me. We were maybe three months into the course. One of the required things every day was to check the your mail box. So a group of us are walking back to Snow Hall with our mail, talking and joking and I hear a "Where's your salute, lieutenant?" So I see a captain in a class behind us by at least one other glowering right at me. So I pop him one. My section mates? "What the hell is wrong with him?" It never happened again.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2019 9:51 PM

2019-05-26T21:51:40-04:00

Although per regulations a 2d Lt is supposed to salute a 1Lt, I don’t see it as something that needs to be done. One reason I think this is for tasking deployments a 2d Lt and 1Lt in the USAF is considered as ‘one rank’ for the one up one down rule. Also culturally it’s rarely done, which means is it really a custom? I don’t expect any butterbars to salute me and it honestly surprises me when one does. The 1Lts ahead of me has the same sentiment. Maybe I’m wrong but to me an Lt is an Lt.

Response by Maj Maria Avellaneda made May 27 at 2019 1:18 AM

2019-05-27T01:18:45-04:00

There is nothing to feel. Junior salutes Seniors. Is the Regulation.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2019 7:16 AM

2019-05-27T07:16:54-04:00

How is this a question?

Response by MAJ Fred Rice made May 27 at 2019 4:32 PM

2019-05-27T16:32:31-04:00

During my last summer at West Point in the late 50's, I was assigned to the 82nd Airborne Div. as part of the Army Orientation Training (AOT) program. I was assigned to a 1LT in the 2/504, and my job was to shadow him all day to learn how a junior officer should conduct himself and how to interact with enlisted personnel and officer of all ranks. One day, we were walking down the street in what was then called the "New" Division Area (now all gone and replaced by dorms). A 2LT was walking up the same street on the opposite side, and tried to pretend that he did not, or could not see my LT's rank. He diverted his eyes and attempted to get by without a salute, but my LT yelled at him to come over to him. When he got in front of him, my LT stood him up tall and chewed his ass something fierce for not saluting. He gave him a lecture right then and there on the need to show appropriate courtesy to all ranks, because it was the building block of the entire chain of command. I ;earned a valuable lesson that day, that respect for, and observance of, the customs and traditions of the Army, however trivial and unnecessary they may seem sometimes, is very important. It's the courtesy and tradition that counts, not whether you may think that there's no difference between a 1LT and a 2LT.

Response by LTC Ken Robinson made May 27 at 2019 10:35 PM

2019-05-27T22:35:44-04:00

Yes, you need to salute any senior officer to you; even a 1LT. Always show respect to any senior officers; set the tempo for all junior officers; you will be respected by your enlisted folks! I use to be an enlisted NCO.

Response by Sgt Michael Clifford made May 29 at 2019 9:43 AM

2019-05-29T09:43:03-04:00

Dumb issue. Of course a 2nd LT should salute his/her senior officer. As I read it a 1st LT is still senior to a 2nd LT. I would go so far as to say that a 1st LT who is a platoon commander should salute his/her company commander even if the CO is of the same rank. It is showing curtesy to the rank/position of the senior person.
Of course in a private unofficial situation when there are no troops involved they may be as informal as the senior officer feels appropriate.

Response by SPC Daniel Rankin made May 29 at 2019 11:28 PM

2019-05-29T23:28:15-04:00

I agree, an officer salutes another officer no matter what their rank. The lower rank does the first salute though. it is a sign of respect and that is how saluting started to begin with. Goes back to the time of Caesar in fact. The Roman soldiers saluted the officers and the officers saluted each other in signs of respect and to acknowledge the fact that the officer in charge was not surperior but a better leader. And this was usually due to better knowledge and education.

Response by COL Thomas Cagley made May 30 at 2019 10:07 AM

2019-05-30T10:07:53-04:00

Yes. First, it is simply a matter of respect, and earned, even if promotion to rank was "automatic." It is also important that others who may see the interaction understand the respect the officers show for each other. As career warriors move up through the system, the discipline learned early is very important.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2019 12:42 PM

2019-05-31T12:42:58-04:00

Technically yes, but when I was a 2Lt someone told me that "rank among lieutenants is like virtue among whores; it doesn't exist."

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2019 10:36 PM

2019-05-31T22:36:04-04:00

I'm astonished this question was ever asked...

Response by Sgt Dan Catlin made Jun 3 at 2019 2:51 AM

2019-06-03T02:51:47-04:00

Officers rightly expect the respect and courtesy of a salute from enlisted. If they cannot set the example, instead embarking on a petty campaign to not show the same to someone 1 grade senior how do they think it will look to even non-rate enlisted grades who may have more time in and practical experience than they? It might lead to their second guessing orders, which could be disastrous. It quite possibly could effect unit cohesion. Saluting is not degrading. It is a traditional greeting of mutual respect between warriors. Anyone who refuses to render the courtesy, no matter their rank, should be brought up short and quick by the senior officer unless another in authority is present to administer the discipline.

Response by CPT Daniel Cox made Jun 4 at 2019 4:56 AM

2019-06-04T04:56:20-04:00

Saying a "Lieutenant is a Lieutenant" (for the Army, Air Force and Marines) is wrong. Should a Navy Ensign salute a Lieutenant J.G.? Is a "Lieutenant is a Lieutenant" true in the Navy? Is a Captain a Captain when speaking of an Army Officer to a Navy one? (Though I did have fun making reservations at the Naval bases while I was in the Army.) An O-1 should always salute any officer of a higher rank, no matter what that officers rank is.
As a Cadet Candidate at the US Military Academy Preparatory School (at Fort Monmouth NJ before its move to West Point) my Pay Grade was E-3. Depending on the Cadet Rank I held my insignia could look like a Lieutenant or Captain (I was never high enough up the food chain to have more than two bars) and would be saluted by NCOs and/or junior officers. We were taught to return the salute and don't make a big deal of it. In that case it was the impression not saluting could portray if enlisted soldiers did not receive a salute in return. As for the Officers, we were normally saluting them first, they just thought they were saluting us.

Response by SP6 Peter Kreutzfeldt made Jun 4 at 2019 10:27 AM

2019-06-04T10:27:28-04:00

What is the big deal. I suggest that all salute a 2nd LT in any combat zone

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 29 at 2019 2:59 PM

2019-06-29T14:59:16-04:00

I saluted 1LTs as a 2LT to aggravate them lol

Response by COL Kasey Warner made Jun 29 at 2019 9:07 PM

2019-06-29T21:07:52-04:00

Yes. While the salute may not be expected nor the requirement "enforced" in some units between a 2LT and 1LT, especially when other soldiers are not around, it is still proper to exchange the salute and should be done. Do LTCs salute COLs? (they are both just colonels).....do generals salute generals with more stars? (they are both generals). You betcha. A 2LT who fails to salute a 1LT in my presence WILL be corrected firmly.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 5 at 2019 1:17 PM

2019-07-05T13:17:03-04:00

What if I am a 2LT (P) lol

Response by MAJ Rene De La Rosa made Jul 28 at 2019 4:30 PM

2019-07-28T16:30:30-04:00

Nope, both LTs.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2019 12:21 AM

2019-07-29T00:21:35-04:00

Don't understand this discussion. Rates should always salute officers. Warrant officers included. Junior officers should always salute senior officers. 2LTs are junior to 1LTs. LCs are junior to Col. I just don't understand these questions. Maybe you were asleep in basic?

Response by MSgt Ted C Hall made Aug 6 at 2019 9:30 AM

2019-08-06T09:30:28-04:00

Over in Germany back in the Cold War days we had a group of young Lts that habitually took a shortcut from their Apaches to the O-Club at the end of the duty day. They cut right through the an outdoor maintenance area where quite a few of their aircraft mechanics were getting ready to roll over and service their choppers.
They seemed to be quite engrossed in their conversations and tended to ignore the young army troops working along their path as they rendered salutes and greeted the intrepid flying warriors.
As the Rod and Gun Club RO, a lot of the young troops knew me and over a few beers told me how worthless and weak the attitude of those young officers made them feel.
I arranged my schedule to be in the area in question a few days later at the end of the duty day, observed the same young officers exhibiting the same disregard for the honors being rendered and stepped in.
"Gentlemen," I said addressing the gaggle of aviators, "I would like to have a word with you" Apparently my command voice tone was enough to interrupt their concentration and get their attention.
The group turned and I executed a sharp salute, held it for a few seconds, and dropped my hand.
Some of them returned the salute instinctively and others sort of looked shocked as their arms moved without thought but not completing the motion.
"I've heard rumors that a group of officers has been reluctant to return salutes to the enlisted folk working in this area" I announced, "That wouldn't be you, gentlemen, would it?"
FWIW I was in a NATO issue sage green coat, wearing a grey bunny hat, unbloused green fatigues and no insignia. The correct uniform for my service and assignment there.
After getting no clue to whom they were speaking from my completely blank clothing a couple of officers started to protest my interrupting their stroll.
"Gentlemen, we can discuss this among ourselves here or in the CSM's office. I see his light is on and know he's working late tonight" I said, pointing to the appropriate window glowing one building over.
The group settled down and listened while I gave a brief history of The Salute, quoted a couple of lines I'd lifted from the Army regulations that afternoon, and closed with the hopes that in the future we wouldn't have another conversation of this sort.
After another salute that was returned with enthusiasm, I performed an about-face and went back to my own duties...
In all that I was respectful, assisting them with my experience as an NCO, and trying to solve the problem at the lowest possible level. I never told anyone what I'd done, it was just a problem that I, as an NCO, was asked to look into and I felt it was taken care of...
The kids that had complained to me were amazed that they started getting their salutes returned. Hopefully, that helped them feel more like valued members of the team, after all, THEY worked through the night keeping those helicopters fixed and flying, while the young Lts who just drove them entertained themselves in the O-Club<G>

Response by SPC Shawn Durnen made Aug 13 at 2019 11:37 PM

2019-08-13T23:37:59-04:00

Response by MSgt George Fillgrove made Aug 17 at 2019 6:21 AM

2019-08-17T06:21:03-04:00

Of course! Wondering why this is even a question.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2019 2:29 AM

2019-08-27T02:29:59-04:00

Yes- they are superior to them

Response by SFC Russell Bettinger made Aug 27 at 2019 8:17 PM

2019-08-27T20:17:28-04:00

Response by CPT Lawrence Cichelli made Aug 30 at 2019 8:14 AM

2019-08-30T08:14:32-04:00

I've ben both, and the age old saying, there is no rank among LTs was the thing back in the day. Now if a 2LT is reporting to a 1LT as a CDR, that's different.

Response by SFC Rollie Hubbard made Aug 30 at 2019 5:02 PM

2019-08-30T17:02:52-04:00

Yes he is junior

Response by SPC Ron Salsbury made Sep 15 at 2019 12:43 PM

2019-09-15T12:43:42-04:00

The salute is acknowledgement for the position of rank regardless of experience of training, and or time in the service, you may not like the individual, but it goes back to professionalism of the services and respect. I may not have agreed in the past with some of my officers, however they were my superior, and they earned that salute by completing training required to lead young men and women that I had not. This maintenance of military protocol and professionalism saluting a superior officer not only demonstrates the junior officer's or enlisted person's professional behavior, it exemplifies the dignity and heart of a true warrior.

Response by PO2 John Zodun made Sep 19 at 2019 3:21 AM

2019-09-19T03:21:51-04:00

It’s better to salute than to get s reprrmain

Response by Lt Col Paul Maxwell made Sep 30 at 2019 5:01 PM

2019-09-30T17:01:25-04:00

In my junior officer days of the Army... lieutenants did NOT routinely salute each other in passing...but would occasionally in a more formal ceremony setting or such. But this is a very small topic to even discuss on these boards....
Most new 2LTS ( Ensign/ 0-1) are only at that rank for 2 yrs or less...and the only people it matters too, would be a small subset of NEIDERMEIER 1LT types making an issue of it. Quite likely, if you are NOT being saluted by your peers in an “optional setting”... it is because only a 1LT DickHead would insist upon it.

Response by SGT Ronald Audas made Oct 2 at 2019 1:52 PM

2019-10-02T13:52:27-04:00

Salute the higher ranking officer.It won't hurt you and God knows we need the practice.Salutes have become so casual ,it is disrespectful to whoever is receiving it.

Response by AB Edward Mondini made Oct 13 at 2019 12:58 AM

2019-10-13T00:58:32-04:00

why wouldn’t you? I look at it as a sign of mutual respect.........wouldn’t you?

Response by SPC Michael Pellegrino made Oct 16 at 2019 9:08 PM

2019-10-16T21:08:49-04:00

Of course.....why are we discussing this?????

Response by Lt Col Gary Odle made Oct 17 at 2019 11:44 PM

2019-10-17T23:44:24-04:00

When I was a 2Lt I saluted 1Lt's because I had respect for them. They had gone through the same training I had but had experience doing the job that I did not have. In fact, some of my instructors were 1Lt's.

Obviously, living in the BOQ we all knew each other by our first names and rank did not matter much at all, but in uniform and at work, that was a different story entirely.

FYI / I was in the Air Force so other services may have seen it differently.

Response by SFC Jorge Diaz Caro made Jan 30 at 2020 6:30 PM

2020-01-30T18:30:24-05:00

Should a specialist stand in Parade rest for a corporal same grade, its the same idea the lowest rankig should always salute the next level basic C&C

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2020 7:56 AM

2020-03-02T07:56:38-05:00

Skimming through this discussion, something interesting surfaced. We are so stodgy that we need regulations to address when we say "Hello" to each other in the Military. Everyone is taught the origin of the salute in basic training and its application. We probably received corrective training when we failed to remember what we were taught to reinforce the importance of situational awareness. From there, it likely becomes a fear of missing rank recognition and the Soldier tries to avoid such encounters. The infamous "hidey-holes" or detours Soldiers duck into are passed from generation to generation to circumnavigate these possible encounters.

I know everyone has had someone of a higher rank yell at them or tell them to do something they didn't want to do. They take that and turn it into a grudge against higher rank that affects their ability to see the whole picture. That in turn makes it difficult to feel a part of the whole, and they start questioning the simple mannerisms of our culture. The result: frustrated lower ranking Soldiers walking around not wanting to say "Hello" to people they should be looking to for leadership. Another situation I have repeatedly run into is : "I'm not going to salute if I don't have to", or taking on the task of judging whether or not someone deserves to be saluted. Excuse me for judging, but this is not only feckless but also toxic to your fellow Soldiers and is a bad example of Soldiering and leadership for your junior Soldiers. If we can "Embrace the suck", then why make a huge deal over something so trivial as rendering a salute. I never required people salute me, but I always had a return salute and greeting when I was.

So, should the COL salute the CPT who is the Commander of his Unit, or a SPC give courtesy to a CPL leading a work detail? Again, go back to our original training and meaning for the salute or courtesy. It means "I am aware of your presence, I recognize you are my leader, I am paying attention to you directly awaiting guidance, and I am not trying to kill you because I am unarmed." That "unarmed" thing is true - Soldiers going Postal is unfortunately too common still today.

Regulations should be questioned because they are not made clear enough, not because of personal bias or misinterpretation. I read section 1-5 of AR 600-25, and find it a bit confusing because of the terminology used. Junior counterbalances senior, and describes a difference in experience. When using the term, what counterbalances "Superior"? Inferior? Is the COL inferior to the lower ranking Commander CPT? I'm sure they would not like be classified as inferior and would likely let you know.

Response by PFC Winnie Tuman made Apr 22 at 2020 1:53 PM

2020-04-22T13:53:10-04:00

There's a lot of variables. Are they both in uniform, or PT, clothes, or lounging in barracks, are other enlisted nearby? I think out of respect they should salute each other just like I've seen a colonel and a captain do. It's called respect.

Response by 1SG Brian Adams made Apr 22 at 2020 11:10 PM

2020-04-22T23:10:57-04:00

Absolute!

Response by SFC James Welch made May 21 at 2020 5:34 PM

2020-05-21T17:34:26-04:00

Yes, it recognizes a Superior Rank and a fellow Soldier. A Salute was a Recognition among Warriors first.

Response by SSG Paul Headlee made Jul 31 at 2020 8:38 AM

2020-07-31T08:38:14-04:00

I love resurrecting old threads! I worked very closely with a 2LT (and I won't use his name without his permission) when I was a PFC. He was extraordinarily capable and well liked. I remember him using a sharpie to blacken the 2LT bar on his OG-107 uniform blouse the day he was promoted. At some point during our tour of duty he made the remark that there is no rank among Lieutenants. This was his opinion, obviously, and at the time I believed as you do CPT Eric Rosa. We had many an interesting conversation regarding organization, leadership and self motivation. He was different in this way from the other company grade officers I had come into contact with. He enjoyed freeing up stagnated situations and motivating others to do all they could to improve processes and people. His point was that because Lieutenants had so many additional duties and responsibilities heaped upon them (and as he listed some of them it was something of an eye opener for someone like myself - close to his age and having very few additional responsibilities) that it was counterproductive and distracting to split hairs that way amongst his peer group. He went on to retire with three stars. He had added to my professional development and in part was responsible for some of the leadership successes that I enjoyed.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2020 1:49 AM

2020-12-12T01:49:03-05:00

Yes a matter of respect the rank ,and person.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2020 1:55 AM

2020-12-12T01:55:09-05:00

Also it is a example to enlisted, and all rank should be respected.

Response by SPC Ray Orvin made Aug 11 at 2021 11:44 AM

2021-08-11T11:44:32-04:00

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jan 22 at 2022 12:59 PM

2022-01-22T12:59:23-05:00

To Salute is respect. I wore the rank of CSM for many years and served for more than 30. I saluted from the first day I entered service and did so multiple times in a day. The burden is not on enlisted, officers salute much more often. Saluting was never a question regardless of the scenario, accept in Combat, or deployment training.

Response by SGT Tom Moore made Jan 23 at 2022 9:03 PM

2022-01-23T21:03:08-05:00

Absolutely, it’s an honor to salute someone’s rank. It’s respect and warranted!

Response by SFC Someone Retired made Sep 15 at 2022 2:11 AM

2022-09-15T02:11:29-04:00

You cannot spell lost without LT.

Response by SFC Brian Ewing made Jan 13 at 2023 8:31 PM

2023-01-13T20:31:42-05:00

Simple answer is YES.
If a Salute is rendered then it is required of the person being saluted to salute back.
Respect works both ways...learn the tradition of the Salute and you will be proud to Salute the rank as well as the individual wearing it.

Response by SGT Ruben Lozada made Jun 9 at 2023 5:56 PM

2023-06-09T17:56:12-04:00

Good afternoon CPT Private RallyPoint Member. Excellent post. Thank You for sharing this. Exc question. I would have to say yes. Because any 1LT out ranks any 2LT. Therefore, that said 2LT (Butter Bar) should be saluting that said 1LT.

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Jun 10 at 2023 12:07 PM

2023-06-10T12:07:13-04:00

This seems to be a uniquely Army topic. It doesn't come up in the other services.
The current version of AR 600-25 is clear enough that the junior must salute the senior, but unfortunately vague about EXCHANGING salutes. I don't have the other service regulations handy but years ago the Navy taught that officers exchanged salutes -- including with other officers of the same rank.

Response by 1SG Roy Hilliman made Oct 9 at 2023 7:31 AM

2023-10-09T07:31:39-04:00

I support the regulations and believe that any junior should salute the senior.