Shinseki Resignation

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 May 2014 11:43:59 -0400

Gen (Ret) Shinseki just resigned (aka fired) as the Secretary of Veterans Affairs. Whats your take? Legit, scape goat, or...? And was the problem handled at the appropriate level?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2014 11:37 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 May 2014 11:37:14 -0400

Like someone said earlier is he just the scapegoat ?

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2014 12:05 PM

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 May 2014 12:05:07 -0400

Unfortunately I severely doubt the ones who were truly responsible for the deaths and delayed care at the AZ VA were not held accountable.

Response by MSG Wade Huffman made May 30 at 2014 12:12 PM

MSG Wade Huffman — Fri, 30 May 2014 12:12:23 -0400

Of course he'll be made a scapegoat, it is politics after all. Unfortunately, his departure (by whatever means), in itself, does nothing to fix any of the problems the VA is facing (or has brought upon themselves). Just another example of bureaucracy run a muck.
I for one am getting rather tired of hearing about yet another investigation into the same problems. Exactly how many investigations on the same issue does it take before someone in a position of authority actually even TRIES to fix anything! This has been going on (per the VAs own internal investigations) since at least 2010!
end rant.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2014 12:25 PM

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 May 2014 12:25:33 -0400

I think he is partially a scapegoat. We need to ensure the folks closer to the scandal are held accountable.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made May 30 at 2014 12:28 PM

MSG Floyd Williams — Fri, 30 May 2014 12:28:24 -0400

I blame the people under GEN. (Ret) Shinseki for poor supervision, he was at the top of the pyramid can't see everything. Was he getting any support to fix the problem?

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2014 12:30 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 May 2014 12:30:06 -0400

I don't know much about him, but I think he lost a degree of staff accountability at some point to end up where he is now. Most likely not entirely due to his fault. I'm sure VA will take care of his medical needs nevertheless

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2014 12:30 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 May 2014 12:30:59 -0400

The problem wasn't Shinseki to begin with, the problem is the whole bureaucratic system itself. Shinseki just rode the bull, so to speak, and couldn't handle it. No one can. The whole system needs overhauled to a more patient centric way of doing things. We as Americans have accepted this bereaucratic system for far too long. Nothing will change as long as we continue to go along with it. So my arguement is, it doesn't matter who is in charge, it's the system that is flawed. Look back and read about the early progressive movement of the late 1800s early 1900s led by President Woodrow Wilson. When he was a college president at one of the Ivy League schools, which the name escapes me at the moment, he wrote essays about how a bereaucratic system was the ideal system in which to control the masses because people assigned to positions in government would make better decisions on your life in general. I am really generalyzing his whole argument, but he and others like him worked to create a European style bereaucracy here in the states and were successfull. Now look at where we are today. We have accepted that we need to jump through hoops of fire on multiple different levels to get anything done through the government, and they control a great deal of our lives. I suppose those of us in the military have a great deal more patience with this because we live it, but that is my argument again, think of how many forms we fill out every day, how many outside agencies we have to go to, how many levels of agencies look over our shoulders. Now translate that to the VA in all of its responsibilities, not just the medical side, and take a deep breath. Things won't change until the system changes.

Response by MSG Martin C. made May 30 at 2014 12:41 PM

MSG Martin C. — Fri, 30 May 2014 12:41:14 -0400

Absolutely scape goat... Let's say that General Odierno should be fired because all of the scandals we had with Generals the last two years is that fair? Absolutely not there is tiers of leadership and every one of those hospitals have a head honcho, they are the ones that should be accountable for their fail organizations and the government should recoup all those bonuses. It is impossible for Shinseki to know they were hiding lists of patients at that level is entirely to low. It's like blaming the Army chief of staff for the post commander of FT Jackson for hiding and affair how could he possibly know. Unfortunately it's politics and someone needs to fall on that sword to appease the public and the higher government to save face with the voters.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2014 1:11 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 May 2014 13:11:18 -0400

He may have been a good leader. Somewhere along the way he might've disconnected from what was happening in the front lines of VA dilemmas. Should've played "undercover boss" card (for those who saw the series), maybe could've intercepted some of the tragedies. Nevertheless he decided to resign. I'm sure the VA will take good care of him

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made May 30 at 2014 3:00 PM

Maj Chris Nelson — Fri, 30 May 2014 15:00:15 -0400

I feel that this situation is VERY similar to what happened at Malmstrom AFB earlier this year. GREAT Wing Commander (Base Commander), I feel was blind sided by senior leadership below him that were not doing what was right, passing off no info/poor info. They all got relieved and sent elsewhere. He resigned/lost his star.

In this case, the fault is in the SYSTEM. With that system, the leaders of each facility set their own standards and expectations to make them look good. He took the hit, now we will only have to wait and see how many get canned after him before they get back to business as usual....

Response by SPC Charles Brown made May 30 at 2014 3:05 PM

SPC Charles Brown — Fri, 30 May 2014 15:05:17 -0400

Scapegoat. This system was broken long before he took it over. How can we blame a man who tried and did his best to work inside a corrupt system with no chance to fix it? This is the same operation that just granted an octogenarian his benefits from serving in WWII, was that his fault also? Yes changes need to be made, but I don't think this is the change that needs to be made. Place the blame on the system, not on the person who was attempting to run it. So much for my .02.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made May 30 at 2014 3:24 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Fri, 30 May 2014 15:24:05 -0400

I think it was the best decision overall for GEN Shinseki to just resign. I personally believe the VA system is so broken that it may never be fixed, however that's defined. I don't think it really can be perfected, honestly. Many well thought-out solutions exist on paper and have been conceived by brilliant people, but the implementation and optimization of this massive health care system as an entity of the government is almost impossibly hard. Yes, I do think GEN Shinseki fell on the sword here, but this was the right call to make as the leader of the organization. (Note: my personal opinions, not those of RallyPoint.)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2014 3:32 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 May 2014 15:32:16 -0400

Eric Shinseki's resignation will not fix the problems at the VA. A congressional investigation, will not fix the problems at the VA. Firing a few of the people working for the VA will not fix the problems at the VA. Blaming the top bosses, will not fix things at the VA. Shinseki is doing what he was told to do: Fall on his sword, for "the good of the government". Shinseki has had his hands tied the entire time he was in charge. When you can't fire people, end their careers, or punish those who work for you, you are not a threat to them, and anything you want to do, can be safely ignored by those who don't care, are crooked, or are incapable (either due to others above them not letting them, or because they don't know how to) of fixing things.

There is only one way to fix the VA: Fire everyone who has any hint of having a hand in either delaying, or sub-standardizing the treatment of veterans. Put all others on notice, and find someone with a proven track record from OUTSIDE the VA to fix the VA. Charge them with a 1-year goal, of improving quality of care and time it takes to get care and give them the power to do so. Doctors, nurses, PAs, and other practitioners who are found negligent: revoke or suspend their medical license. Anyone found to have been drinking or who as contributed directly to the suffering of someone - jail time.

It is time to be a complete *ssh*le to these types of people and get rid of them.

Will you get them all? Probably not. But the few that remain will be so scared they will toe the line and do the job. Later, they'll probably screw up and get caught eventually, and hopefully before someone else is killed or dies due to their negligence.

Response by LCpl Steve Wininger made May 30 at 2014 5:24 PM

LCpl Steve Wininger — Fri, 30 May 2014 17:24:20 -0400

He is being used as a scapegoat. It is a political move. Personally, I think he is protecting the president by resigning. The press releases are just for show. I think there is much more going on than meets the public eye.

I do not think the Secretary resigning is going to change anything. The only thing this serves is to smooth out some political wrinkles that were caused by the scandal.

Until there is some accountability, nothing will change. This will slide into obscurity just like all the other scandals and be brushed aside when it surfaces in the future, as "That situation was taken care of."

Political posturing and BS.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2014 7:03 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 May 2014 19:03:14 -0400

Scapegoat definitely, Obama even admitted political pressure forced him to accept the resignation.

Too bad its not a solution to problem at hand.

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made May 30 at 2014 9:19 PM

MAJ Jim Woods — Fri, 30 May 2014 21:19:37 -0400

It was the right thing to do. But....... then the Administration turns around and appoints his Deputy as the interim Secy. As if he didn't know what was going on?
The bad decisions just keep coming.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Spencer made May 30 at 2014 9:41 PM

SSG Jeffrey Spencer — Fri, 30 May 2014 21:41:35 -0400

He didn't create the problem. But he allowed it to exist for the five years he was in charge.

Response by LCpl Rick Ponton made May 31 at 2014 3:52 AM

LCpl Rick Ponton — Sat, 31 May 2014 03:52:54 -0400

I DID NOT WANT HIM TO STEP DOWN AND I THINK HE IS AN HONORABLE MAN AND HE IS JAPANESE DECENT AND THAT MAKES IT EVEN BETTER AND I THINK HE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO COULD HAVE FIXED THE MESS IN THE VA.

Response by CPT Arthur Jacobs made May 31 at 2014 12:40 PM

CPT Arthur Jacobs — Sat, 31 May 2014 12:40:11 -0400

Am I mistaken, but is this the same non-combat (admin) General who decided when he was on active duty that the Army would switch headgear to the black beret so that everyone would feel "special" and their precious and delicate self-esteem would get a boost. If not, I apologize for the error (but at least you'll know I thought it was a bone-headed decision to take the traditional and distinctive Army Ranger black beret and hand it out wholesale). If I am not mistaken, then there is a pattern of bone-headedness here! He said he guessed he "trusted" people he should not have! Excuse me, but his job in taking the position was to have done a thorough and objective analysis of the operation to replicate the good stuff and correct the poor stuff. Perhaps the IG who so quickly found all the incompetence and bureaucracy should have been the one to head up the VA in the first place! Yes, you want to trust your subordinates, but that should come after they have proven their competence. Because this thing is about veterans, both sides of the aisle have (finally) joined in. You would have hoped that the Democrats would have been just as incensed about the IRS or Benghazi, but alas, politicians (and increasingly, Generals) are looking for their personal nest to be feathered as opposed to doing the right thing. Hooray for McRaven and McCrystal who tell it like it is. Okay, my rant.

Response by CPT Arthur Jacobs made May 31 at 2014 4:43 PM

CPT Arthur Jacobs — Sat, 31 May 2014 16:43:51 -0400

My apologies to the audience and the General on his combat record. I had been misinformed. I stand by my comments on the berets and his lack of critical look at the VA during his tenure.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made May 31 at 2014 10:12 PM

SGT Craig Northacker — Sat, 31 May 2014 22:12:59 -0400

I have been working behind the scenes helping to improve the system for our vets and their families. The VAMC I go to in Northport is for the most part at least as good as any civilian medical facility I have visited, and they care much more than the standard medical folks.

The VA has had corrupt practices embedded since at least WWI, when benefits were issued in the form of bonds that expired many years hence, and when the veterans went to DC to camp out on the mall, they were shot at by our otherwise legendary heroic leaders from WW2.

Secretary Shinseki overrode the Agent Orange mentality existing in the top medical ranks when he authorized the treatment for Gulf war Illnesses after a report specially commissioned by Congress was delivered in November, 2008, affirming the existence of GWI. Within a few months, both the DoD and VA medical gurus replied that they did not feel there was substantive proof, or words to that effect, and the Secretary fired right back and told them to pretend it exists and start treating everyone. That led to an even larger backlog of cases, and the introduction of bonuses to help process the cases backfired. The Secretary gave more credit to a number of folks than he should have, and they torpedoed him in the finest tradition of any longstanding REMF.

He has (had) somewhere close to 300,000 employees. By contrast, the Army has about 520,000 AD soldiers, with 240 some-odd generals. Without coming in with his own auditing team to do a forensic study on everyone in the VA, he took two years to listen to problems and develop strategies to make corrections based on the information given him. He made revolutionary changes in positive ways, and when purported solutions did not work he scrapped them to find new ones that would work.

When people use collusion to commit fraud they are hard to detect. This is a concern in every certified audit performed by CPA's. The fact that the Secretary made as many positive steps forward as he did is to me incredible, and he is Davy Crockett at the VA Alamo with election-year political agendas attacking him at every level. To their great shame, in my book.

I locked horns with the Secretary's office from time to time, but there was never any doubt that he ALWAYS had the best interests of the veterans at heart. The VA still has legions of problems, but there are fewer legions of them than there were when he came into power. When the lower ranks lie, cheat and steal and do it under cover of darkness, they are hard to spot - and for them to let him hang for their transgressions is morally depraved.

If the RP family has concerns that they want to air to the new Acting Secretary, please communicate them with me, and I would be happy to work with the RP creators to put a position paper together that will get to the new Secretary.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jun 1 at 2014 1:24 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Sun, 01 Jun 2014 01:24:17 -0400

Nice

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2014 6:08 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Jun 2014 06:08:05 -0400

My personal opinion is he needed to resign. He has proven in the past to be incapable of managing effectively. The move to the black beret was conducted under his watch and I think we can all agree that has been one the greatest failures of leadership in the past 15yrs in the Army. The beret caused serious morale issues, wasted millions of tax dollars, and to this day thousands of NCOs spend countless hours training troops on how to wear it (unsuccessfully). And how did the beret enhance or improve the Soldier? It didn't. And Shinseki was not strong enough to admit failure then. While the VA job is one of the most difficult one anyone could possibly attempt to take on, and we can applaud his courage for trying, ultimately he was the wrong man for the job. His resignation was symbolically what the country needs but also necessary so a stronger leader can take the reins. Congress must give the new VA Secretary powers to deal with the corrupt and/or inept staff. I read somewhere that we should take a page from Jack Welch at GE years ago and also fire the bottom 10% of poor performing staff. From my experience as a staff NCO when the clerks don't care enough to do their jobs correctly despite all my motivating talks and training, then its time to remove them (from my unit or the army).

Response by SFC A.M. Drake made Jun 1 at 2014 11:32 AM

SFC A.M. Drake — Sun, 01 Jun 2014 11:32:59 -0400

Scapegoat for sure. I worked at the VA in the 90's and those issues about conflicts in the scheduling process has always gone on. Only now it has become a national issue. I have seen a lot issues that needs to be addressed but far to often it gets swept under the rug. Now the Director of the Phoenix rightfully should have been fired, however the Secretary that just stinks to high heaven, as he stated himself that he trusted what his subordinates relayed to him, however those career-status employees were only looking out for themselves and their own selfish desires (ie performance bonuses)

Response by PFC Stephen Eric Serati made Jun 1 at 2014 1:19 PM

PFC Stephen Eric Serati — Sun, 01 Jun 2014 13:19:01 -0400

Now that General Shinseki is resigned, which I believe is by design, the Congress has to act by use of the purse. He has also opened the door to firings of top leaders and if we have Union members who are in on this. You to should go.

Response by CPT Arthur Jacobs made Jun 1 at 2014 3:17 PM

CPT Arthur Jacobs — Sun, 01 Jun 2014 15:17:17 -0400

SFC Benevidez - First, let me preference my comments with the following; I spent one year in Korea and two years in Vietnam. I was wounded three times and was awarded the Silver Star among my other decorations. So, a game plan? Here you go:

1. You come in as a former 4-star general with credibility and gravitas.

2. You announce that there are no sacred cows at the VA and that under the mission of 1st class care to our veterans, you are going to inspect the operation, take suggestions (in the blind to protect whistleblowers), and begin to improve the system over the next 12 months.

3. When you find (just like the IG was able to) the corruption, bureaucracy, slackers, liars, and inflated salary union workers taking advantage of the system (and indirectly our veterans), you write a detailed report to your immediate boss in the chain of command and copy in the Commander in Chief.

4. You gain an audience with those two and spell out that if you cannot change things to improve the system because of unions, negative inertia, bureaucracy, etc. that you will respectfully resign in protest (I'm thinking you either don't need the money, you can secure an even higher paying job in the private sector as a former 4-star, and that you are an honorable man).

5. Upon resigning, you submit your report to Congress, where all Hell would let loose (as it should when veterans are being mistreated), you testify when subpoenaed by Congress and let the chips fall where they may, you do what every honorable man should do when he sees an injustice - you stands tall, speak the truth (even if unpopular), and if need be, bares what you know about the incompetence and if need be, seek justice in the court of public opinion. Now what part of that game plan would an honorable man find a problem with?

Response by BG Donald Currier made Jun 2 at 2014 1:38 PM

BG Donald Currier — Mon, 02 Jun 2014 13:38:46 -0400

We all want to believe our subordinates when they tell us things are wonderful in their command, as the Regional Hospital Administrators told GEN Shinseki. But leaders have the obligation to check things. Especially things that look suspicious. The Administrators got bonuses for getting veterans their appointments within 14 days. GEN Shinseki should have known that there were not enough doctors and nurses to accomplish this goal. In other words, the goal was not attainable with the resources available, yet his subordinates were meeting the goals routinely and getting those lucrative bonuses. If he was unable to create a culture where bad news gets to the top and he did not have the wherewithal to get out to the filed to check himself, then he needed to go. I don't think he was a scapegoat as much as he was simply unsuccessful. He should have known his subordinates could not meet the unrealistic goals set for them without manipulating the data. I would like to think that he didn't lead that way when he was the CSA.

Response by SSG Mike Angelo made Jun 2 at 2014 4:20 PM

SSG Mike Angelo — Mon, 02 Jun 2014 16:20:48 -0400

Many times a job assignment can be overwelming in all things under the sun. Against all odds of changing a system riddled with systemic issues and problematic waiting-in-lines, Shinseki gave it his best shot. IMO.

I believe that Shinseki tried to create change but the needs of the system and/or veterans was too great. I also believe that our country does not have the resource to create change and to appease all veterans with their specific issues.

Meeting all the needs of all veterans at this time in our country is not doable. We send our young men and women to war, we should be able to take care of them when they return home. This is a milestone...Shinseki's work will remain undone until we as a nation can come to our own senses; taking care of all veterans is not possible at the VA organizational level.

Veteran treatments must be honored in other health organizations that can help with open arms, hearts and resources.

One of our country's weakness stems from the isms affecting veteran health treatment, sustainment and a veteran's survivabiility. Health care organizations are about business casual and capitalistic values. We, as a nation have a long way to go in preserving the veteran experience.

My take... Shinseki did all he could, now it is up to the American people to pitch in for this great cause; taking care of the American Veteran.

Someone in Rally Point said, "If you do not want to take care of your veterans, then do not go to war." In truth, our USG was ..and is overwelmed with this issue and with the downsizing and sending military personnel home by the hundreds and thousands, these challenges will remain.

I foresee a Veteran March in DC in the near future. It happened before, post WWI veterans and with Vietnam veterans.