Saluting / Greeting with Arms Encumbered

Maj Matt Hylton — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:32:18 -0400

So I'll set the stage by giving you the scenario and you can tell me if you think I was wrong or if the MSgt was wrong.

I met my wife in the parking lot outside my building to walk with her and my two year old back up to my office to eat lunch. I was walking across the parking lot while holding my son's hand with my right hand and hold my lunch in the other hand (arms obviously encumbered). As I'm walking to the building, a MSgt from another section walks out. I know her because she works in the same building with me and that's about it - no interaction at work at all. She looks at me and I am talking to my wife and helping my son step onto the curb. She extends no greeting to me and continues to walk past me to her car. I didn't really think much of it and I'm not going to call her out for not greeting/saluting me with my wife and kid walking with me into the building. (plus, I wouldn't normally do it anyway unless I'm sure it was intentional)

The next day, another Major in my office (her boss) comes to talk to me and tells me that the MSgt “has a problem with me” and was complaining to him that I “actively avoided” her yesterday in the parking lot and did not offer her a proper greeting or salute. I was taken aback that she would bring it up to her boss. Last time I checked an O-4 outranks an E-7 and I don’t owe you a salute or greeting – it’s the other way around. I thought I was being nice by letting her off the hook the day before and then she tries to turn it around on me and call me out to one of my peers in the office. Unless I’m absolutely failing at my reading comprehension below on these excerpts from AFI 34-1201 and AFPAM 34-1202, it is the MSgt’s responsibility to render the salute and verbal greeting and my responsibility to return both (or at least the greeting if my arms are encumbered). [end rant]

I basically told the other Major that I didn’t really care what she thinks. I was not “avoiding her” and obviously saw the situation the other way around. I told him that the next time it happens I’ll be sure to drop my lunch and let my 2 year old run off into the parking lot so I can render the proper salute and greeting to this obviously entitled MSgt.

AFI 34-1201:
8.1. Hand Salutes.
8.1.1. The hand salute is the form of greeting and recognition exchanged between persons in the armed services. All Air Force personnel in uniform are required to salute when they encounter any person or situation entitled to the salute.
8.1.1.1. When the salute is rendered to another person, the junior member initiates the salute accompanied with an appropriate verbal greeting, e.g., ―Good Morning, Sir/Ma‗am.‖ The salute and a verbal greeting should be extended at a distance at which recognition is easy and audible. The salute should be offered early enough to allow the senior time to return it and extend a verbal greeting before passing. All salutes received when in uniform shall be returned; at other times, salutes received shall be appropriately acknowledged.

AFPAM34-1202
8.4.6. Exceptions to Saluting.
8.4.6.1. Rendering a salute is not required when arms are encumbered. However, one should always extend a verbal greeting or respond to one in such a circumstance. (Note: You should always salute a senior officer if he/she is encumbered and you are not, even though the salute cannot be returned.)

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2014 2:37 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:37:09 -0400

No you are right Sir. She was probably trying to cover her butt by making it look like (to your peer) you were the wrong one.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Aug 20 at 2014 3:08 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:08:00 -0400

1) She should have saluted you regardless if your hands were full or not. It's her job to initiate it being the junior SM.

2) The proper reponse would be to acknowledge the salute. In this case a verbal "Thank you" or "Good afternoon" would suffice since your hands were encumbered.

Response by TSgt Terry Hudson made Aug 20 at 2014 3:39 PM

TSgt Terry Hudson — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:39:37 -0400

SMH, I'm just an E4 waiting to put on E5. I'll conduct myself accordingly and keep my mouth closed lol.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Aug 20 at 2014 3:43 PM

SGT Richard H. — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:43:32 -0400

Maj Matt Hylton Sir, I'm unclear - Did the MSgt initiate a salute? If not, she is clearly in the wrong, end of story.

If she did, then as mentioned, with encumbered hands, a greeting is all that would be required of you. Heck, for most (reasonable) people a simple nod would do.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2014 3:46 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:46:52 -0400

I thought we have problems in the Army with saluting. Apparently the AF has it's own issues. But she is in the wrong. I am not sure about the AF regs but in the Army an officer doesn't even have to return the salute if his hands are encumbered. I would never do that and I would return the salute but I couldn't imagine that scenario playing out in the Army. It appears she views herself as a peer and not a subordinate. This does occur in the AF often.

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made Aug 20 at 2014 3:49 PM

SSgt Gregory Guina — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:49:51 -0400

I would have to vote in your favor on this one Sir.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Aug 20 at 2014 3:50 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:50:29 -0400

You are dealing with a truly lost service member Sir. Somebody clearly has hurt feelings. If I saw ANY officer who was clearly encumbered, not only would I still render a salute as fast as possible, but I would offer to help you out. In the Marines,they use the term "by your leave" for situations like that and at a minimum, if I was really in a hurry and therefore couldn't offer you a hand, I would give you a quick salute and a by your leave. That service member was 100% in the wrong. As a former NCO, I offer my apologies of their behalf.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2014 3:50 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:50:53 -0400

This seems to be a simple close and shut case. The Msgt should have rendered the salute regardless of you encumbered, and then you could have replied back with the greeting or salute if you decided to let your kids hand go. Either way, the Msgt obviously is supposed to initiate and she failed to do so. She has no rightful complaint and should be put in check by the Major she complained too.

Response by SSgt Brycen Shumway made Aug 20 at 2014 4:13 PM

SSgt Brycen Shumway — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 16:13:09 -0400

Just another voice to compliment everyone else.

You are correct, she was wrong.

I think you handled the initial situation as most would have. But since she decided to bring it up through someone else trying to bring discredit and dissention to your rank and station; I feel like some sort of action on your part should respond in turn. Perhaps just a reminder of the regs at an AMU All Call, that way it's not just for her and comes across like some sort of punishment.

Personally, I know that most my senior leadership had an "Open Door Policy", and if she really wanted to say something, even if it was to apologize for not saluting, she should have gone to you. Solve the issue at the lowest level possible. One of the first lessons in ALS.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Aug 20 at 2014 4:29 PM

Maj Chris Nelson — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 16:29:09 -0400

I have been Army and Air Force.....Enlisted E-1 through E-5 and officer O-1 through O-4. Since 1987, the rules of engagement for this situation have not waivered even an inch except in designated "no hat/no salute" areas, field settings, and deployed settings (and even deployed, sometimes, some locations require the sniper checks due to the amount of senior brass....rediculous I know....but....). You were in the right. The MSgt was in the wrong. If she chose to attempt to bust you out, maybe she needs some formal counseling to ensure she understands the AFI (both spirit AND intent). Oh, and not to dog on the MSgt too hard.... I have E-2 and E-3s that know better.....

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Aug 20 at 2014 4:38 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 16:38:21 -0400

You done good! When in doubt common sense dictates. The MSgt should have seen your situation and offered the greeting of the day, if within contact range and carried on. If it had been her with the arms full I would have offered the greeting of the day and carried on in the same fashion. You were engaged in personal business with arms full. Love the comeback to the other Major - classic. We've all done it in uniform or not, conversing with another, don't see or recognize another person and carried on. I've never been accused of avoiding anyone under those circumstances. Sounds like someone was having a bad day if they had to go complain to their OIC about it and then said OIC had to talk to you about it.

Either that or their head was so far up their 4th point of contact they had to bring their right hand to their rib cage to perform the action correctly.

Response by SSG Pete Fleming made Aug 20 at 2014 4:45 PM

SSG Pete Fleming — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 16:45:13 -0400

Maj Matt Hylton, respectfully I like your attitude regarding this, sir. I think you handled it right... there are small minded people everywhere...

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Aug 20 at 2014 6:52 PM

CMSgt James Nolan — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 18:52:04 -0400

Maj Matt Hylton Sir, you are correct in your judgement of the situation. Bottom line, she should have greeted you properly and you would of course have responded. And it is absolutely petty that she went and "told" on you. To me, if I am a SMSgt walking out and encounter you in the situation described, I am going to salute you and I expect you to greet me in whatever fashion you can manage in your situation, whether it be a nod, a smile, a honk off I am busy....

The purpose of the reg is to point out the obvious. The problem that we have (as you are surely aware) is that some folks will position themselves (arms full) and travel the entire length of an installation, so as to avoid the "salute". Seriously? Some folks need to go back and remember the purpose behind the salute and the reason we are in the service. If...someone has a problem with authority, the military just is not the right place for them. I am fairly sure that if an Airman were to disrespect her, she would lose her ever loving mind. (as I would).

I would very likely have my entire "butt" on my shoulders following what you described.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2014 11:53 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 23:53:02 -0400

Sir, WOW!!! She is 100% in the wrong on so many different levels. I'm sorry but I just can't bring myself to call her an NCO since she clearly is NOT. ANY NCO worth their salt knows they are the initiator of a salute to an officer. Add to the whole situation she complained to her boss that YOU did wrong!!! Dear Lord, what has the military come to??? Personally, I think her stripes need to be removed and she go back to basic training for some serious remedial training.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2014 12:21 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:21:52 -0400

So no crap, there I was. Company staging area, FOB Delta, Al Kut, Iraq, 2009. I had the .50 on one shoulder and the barrel in my other hand. I walked by a MAJ that I had never seen before. I offered a "Good morning, Sir." as I passed. Once I was passed him I hear "Hey Soldier!" I look over my shoulder and see him coming toward me. He proceeds to start ripping me apart for not saluting him. I said "Excuse me, Sir. Can you hold this for me?" and I hold out the barrel. He looks at me dumbfounded and takes it. I take the .50 off my shoulder, set it on the ground and then salute him and offer another good morning. Then I picked my weapon back up, took my barrel. I even said thank you for holding it. And I went about my business. People like that really grind my gears.

Response by CW2 Jonathan Kantor made Aug 21 at 2014 2:23 AM

CW2 Jonathan Kantor — Thu, 21 Aug 2014 02:23:29 -0400

That's incredibly odd. She should have saluted you and you should have replied with the greeting of the day... or good morning/afternoon/howdy. I don't call people out for not saluting me either, but after something like this, I would have been pissed off. I wonder what she was thinking... it doesn't make any sense. Did you walk away from her or move out of her line of sight in any way? Perhaps she took that as avoidance and didn't salute because of it. Regardless, she knows she is supposed to salute you and you aren't supposed to salute her. This is just plain weird.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2014 2:45 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Aug 2014 02:45:56 -0400

Everyone has covered this to a "T".

Enlisted render the greeting of the day, a salute, and carry that salute until it is returned or until 6 paces to the rear of the officer if the salute cannot be returned

Your hands were full, she was still required to salute and carry that salute until after you had passed, 6 paces I believe it is. The greeting of the day from you is your "salute" in return.

This whole thing is kind of ridiculous. What got my attention the most was that she had the audacity to complain to HER OIC, that YOU failed to offer HER the greeting and avoided her.

I dont get it...why didnt the Officer who came to you about her complaint square her away?

Shes clearly in the wrong, and he should have known it as well...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2014 3:28 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Aug 2014 03:28:15 -0400

Sir,

You do realize that issues like this cause the lower enlisted to get popcorn and erupt in un-manly giggles at the sheer inanity of it all.

This is the reason why respectable O-5s and O-6s begin hammering 'No Hat-No Salute Zone' signs. I can just imagine this reaching a formal complaint level.

All humor aside, your hands were busy, she did not belt out the greeting to get your attention, and honestly getting her boss to come to you kinda funny.

Blow it off, move on you have work to do.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2014 9:38 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:38:33 -0400

Wow. Sounds like she has an attitude problem and at her rank that is a serious problem. She should be written up and counseled. Report this to her BC, CO and have your Sergeant Major speak with her Sergeant Major. That is a simple problem to fix. Her apparent grudge against you is a much more complicated issue but at least she will be not setting a bad example by repeating this behavior.

Response by PO1 Michael G. made Aug 21 at 2014 4:34 PM

PO1 Michael G. — Thu, 21 Aug 2014 16:34:30 -0400

Maj Matt Hylton The regulations are pretty much the same in then Navy, sir, and I don;t know anyone who's not clear on the issue. I passed an officer who was carrying groceries to his car out of the commissary; I still saluted, despite knowing that it wasn't going to be returned. He simply returned my, "Good afternoon," and that was that.

Response by MSG John Wirts made Aug 21 at 2014 11:49 PM

MSG John Wirts — Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:49:45 -0400

In my time in the Army and Air Force, I too was encumbered many times. The general rule I was aware of was, enlisted with arms encumbered officer was not required to salute, as this would make the enlisted member uncomfortable for not saluting. Officer with arms encumbered, enlisted greets and salutes and drops the salute with out holding, the officer should return the greeting. With one arm encumbered left hand should hold or carry and salute with right hand. Now for a slight deviation, is it now or was it ever correct to salute with the left hand in the U.S. military? Ask if you don't know and I will explain.

Response by LCDR John McLellan made Aug 22 at 2014 1:23 PM

LCDR John McLellan — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:23:50 -0400

WOW, this MSGT needs to get her sh*t squared away in a hurry!! She is supposed to be mentoring the junior troops and isn’t setting a proper example. First, regardless of service, military courtesies shall be rendered up to 6 paces away from senior. Proper greeting of the day shall be rendered by the subordinate/ junior member with a salute. The salute shall be maintained until returned, acknowledged and/ or past a point of the senior member (just in case they didn't hear or see you). This seldom happens now a days.
From my perspective the major in question here is not “encumbered” to return the salute, if properly rendered. Holding his sons hand doesn’t constitute not returning a salute. Carrying a few boxes or something along that line would be covered under “encumbered” and then would still require a return of the greeting of the day or instructing the subordinate/ junior member to carry on.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 1:29 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 13:29:58 -0500

Brutal, sir. I think you were absolutely right. The MSgt may have felt a bit awkward about saluting you with your hands full, but to turn it around and make you out to be the "culprit." Well, that's beyond the pale!

Response by Cpl Christopher Mullins made Feb 25 at 2015 1:42 PM

Cpl Christopher Mullins — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 13:42:22 -0500

MSgt is way off. Had she saluted and it was not returned, then she might have a gripe. Her responsibility to initiate.

Response by SPC Travis Grizzard made Apr 29 at 2015 9:18 PM

SPC Travis Grizzard — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 21:18:39 -0400

So the MSgt CONFESSED to failure to obey a standing order. She saw you, recognized you, and did not salute OR offer you a proper greeting.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2015 9:23 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 21:23:24 -0400

Sir,
She should have popped the salute with the greeting of the day and not expected you to return the salute.

Response by SSG Leevon Leggins II made Apr 29 at 2015 9:34 PM

SSG Leevon Leggins II — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 21:34:46 -0400

This person makes me feel a bit bad about being a non - commissioned officer

Response by 1SG Cameron M. Wesson made Apr 29 at 2015 10:47 PM

1SG Cameron M. Wesson — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 22:47:07 -0400

Maj Matt Hylton oh! I would have such an enjoyment out of this... I once had a SFC when I was a MSG and NCOIC of a DLA organization who... Let us say was... An oxygen thief! He would do things of this nature... Wash time claiming he was being disrespected by one officer or civilian or another. He was not mine... However... On a given day he crossed a line. My MAJ and I went into the Ops to discuss a tasking... As we came in, he failed to get to his feet, my MAJ greeted him and he responded with, "what can I do for you!". Not adding Sir and Sergeant. The MAJ asked the nature of a task we'd gotten and why? He responded, " that's the way it is and you can talk to LTC Schmidt if you want it changed". Again... No honorific. My MAJ started to ask a follow on... But I'd already become "cyclic"

"Sir.... Would you excuse us for a moment please?"

"Sure... I'll find LTC Schmidt"

He stepped out... and I had two pounds of ass! He never failed to use honorifics and come to his feet for a senior again... At least when I was around.

Maybe you should afford the CSM or CMsgt the same opportunity... People like the MSgt breed contempt for the good senior NCOs out there....

Just a thought

Response by MAJ Bill Maynard made Jun 9 at 2016 2:01 PM

MAJ Bill Maynard — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 14:01:02 -0400

Shaking my head... she should just request a discharge now.

Response by SGT James Colwell made Dec 8 at 2016 12:14 PM

SGT James Colwell — Thu, 08 Dec 2016 12:14:01 -0500

You are spot on, sir. The NCO in question, assuming everything went down as you have stated, should have greeted you AND rendered a hand salute. In your case, a returned greeting would have been in order, perhaps even with an acknowledgement of your inability to properly return the salute. Perhaps you could have taken the time to unencumber, but without the military courtesy by the NCO, that was not an option. In this scenario, the only thing you should have done differently was to address the NCO for not offering the proper military courtesy on the spot. At least then, you would have given her a reason to complain to her MAJ. :)

Response by SSgt Gerald Fox made Dec 15 at 2018 11:31 AM

SSgt Gerald Fox — Sat, 15 Dec 2018 11:31:52 -0500

The MSgt and her OIC are in the wrong. Her Major needs to have a conversation with her and give her a copy of the AFI and the Major should take a read as well. She should know better being that this is tested every year in promotion testing, customs and courtesies.

Response by SGT Doug Blanchard made Jun 27 at 2019 10:36 PM

SGT Doug Blanchard — Thu, 27 Jun 2019 22:36:51 -0400

I had something similar to this happen when I was on active duty and was at Ft Sill. A 2nd lieutenant was heading into the maiside PX and I was coming out of the PX. I was on crutches at the time with a cast on my leg. He called me on the carpet for not saluting him and demanded to know what command I was attached to, so I told him. He went to my Captain and filed a complaint against me for it. Well long story short, they sent the CQ runner to get me from the barracks to report to the Captain. Needless to say Captain Roberts ripped the butter bar a new one for wasting his time and acting like a jerk. He even made the 2nd lieutenant apologize to me.

Response by TSgt Pat Gibbens made Aug 4 at 2019 12:50 PM

TSgt Pat Gibbens — Sun, 04 Aug 2019 12:50:35 -0400

Frankly, I'm surprised you need this forum to justify yourself. The MSgt was clearly in the wrong. Your understanding of the situation is spot on. I learned this in basic training in 1980. Every officer I ever served with learned the exact same thing at OTD, the academy, or in ROTC. Have things in the AF changed so much since I retired?

Response by SFC Tom Crenshaw made Aug 4 at 2019 12:54 PM

SFC Tom Crenshaw — Sun, 04 Aug 2019 12:54:20 -0400

I would adjust her collar to match her level of professionalism. Preferrably below the NCO rank she is unfit to wear.

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Aug 8 at 2019 6:23 AM

SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 06:23:26 -0400

I agree, she should have saluted

Response by LTC John Bush made Jan 20 at 2020 7:43 PM

LTC John Bush — Mon, 20 Jan 2020 19:43:17 -0500

Looks like she was looking for something to complain about, may be a deeper issue.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Feb 29 at 2020 4:01 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 29 Feb 2020 16:01:04 -0500

That is so petty. I would imagine there are better things to be concerned about.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 29 at 2020 5:12 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Feb 2020 17:12:44 -0500

Some folks just have an axe to grind. It was she who should have saluted and you could have acknowledged verbally considering the circumstance. Petty on her part.

Response by LTJG Sandra Smith made May 10 at 2021 5:09 AM

LTJG Sandra Smith — Mon, 10 May 2021 05:09:55 -0400

What have the snowflakes turned our military into??? This shouldn't even be a discussion. Since when do enlisted personnel NOT salute officers, outdoors? Some branches carry it indoors as well. But outdoors it's all branches, no exceptions not listed in the regs, and as much as possible keep your right hand free of encumberances for that reason. Those traditions serve a purpose. There can't be 10 leaders. In the field, giving conflicting orders; saluting, besides a courtesy and sign of respect, helps establish that chain of command in mind, so a mission may be accomplished. Seems kind of childish to get offended that someone in a circumstance like that didn't return, but did acknowledge the salute rendered.

Response by CPT William Jones made May 10 at 2021 3:01 PM

CPT William Jones — Mon, 10 May 2021 15:01:27 -0400

The msg’s officer boss should have corrected her reminding that the jr am initiates the exchange and you should never heard of their conversation. And I probably being of equal rank or higher asked him why he didn’t correct his sm

Response by SGT Ruben Lozada made Jun 6 at 2023 4:09 PM

SGT Ruben Lozada — Tue, 06 Jun 2023 16:09:31 -0400

Good afternoon Maj Matt Hylton. Very excellent post. Thank You for sharing this Sir. I think that MSgt was in the wrong. You didn't ignore Her because You were actively engaging with Your Family. She could've made an attempt to salute even though You had Your right hand occupied. I concur with You, any Major is very senior to any Master Sergeant last time I checked. When I was active duty and reserves I made it a habit to salute all officers to include warrent officers and chief warrant officers to include other branches. Ironically, this includes those that are in an ROTC program. I'm sure if She did salute You, then a verbal response would've been appropriate in this case.