Recalling a life event that occured 50 years ago using a word closely resembling what occured, is it a lie if you didnt know the difference?

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 07:49:46 -0500

If you were recalling a significant life event that happened to you over 50 years before and you used a synonym or something close to describe part of the event, does that constitute a lie if you didnt know the difference (Scholarship versus appointment; which means tuition, room, and board)? Or does this constitute a witch hunt as Dr. Carson has stated?

WASHINGTON, Nov 6 (Reuters) - Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson's recollection of being offered a scholarship to the prestigious U.S. Military Academy at West Point was questioned on Friday, potentially damaging the credibility of the 64-year-old retired neurosurgeon.
Also on Friday, Carson's account of how he attempted to stab a friend in his troubled youth came under renewed scrutiny.

Carson, a favorite of conservative activists, who is tied with Donald Trump at the top of Republican primary polls a year before the November 2016 presidential election, has often recounted both tales from his 1990 autobiography on the campaign trail, as he trumpets his rise from poverty in inner-city Detroit to the highest echelons of medicine.

On Friday, Carson's campaign said he never sought admission to West Point, while Carson himself gave a slightly different account of the stabbing incident, describing the boy he lunged at as a close relative instead of a friend.

"These are little things that get at his credibility," said John Feehery, a Republican strategist who is not working for any of the 2016 presidential candidates. "He's coming in there as an outsider who is honest and a breath of fresh air. If his whole life story is undermined by these little inaccuracies it could have a negative effect."

Carson told Fox News his account of the West Point scholarship offer "could have been more clarified." He is planning to participate in a live interview on Sunday morning on CBS's "Face The Nation," where he will likely face tough questions.

"Voters care about candidate integrity," said Laura Stoker, a political science professor at the University of California, Berkeley. "But people - especially those who already favor Carson - will resist allegations until information is definitive."

Carson's supporters seemed unperturbed, and doubted whether the candidate had been inaccurate.

"If I had a general come up to me when I was 17 years old and try to convince me to go to West Point and he told me my expenses would be paid, I don't think it would be so far-fetched to think he offered me a scholarship," said Warren Galkin, 86, of Warwick, Rhode Island, who has given money to a political action committee supporting Carson's campaign.

WEST POINT SCHOLARSHIP

In his autobiography, "Gifted Hands," Carson wrote that as a high school student he dined with General William Westmoreland in 1969. "Later I was offered a full scholarship to West Point," he wrote, saying that he turned it down. "As overjoyed as I felt to be offered such a scholarship, I wasn't really tempted."

Carson's campaign said on Friday that his grades and conversations with officials of the ROTC, which provides preliminary military training for students interested in becoming officers, constituted a de facto acceptance to the academy, which provides full scholarships to all of its students. But it said Carson never actually applied or was admitted to West Point.

"His Senior Commander was in touch with West Point and told Dr. Carson he could get in, Dr. Carson did not seek admission," Carson's campaign spokesman Doug Watts told Reuters in an email.
"Dr. Carson, as the leading ROTC student in Detroit, was told by his Commanders that he could get an Appointment to the Academy," Watts said. "He never said he was admitted or even applied."

West Point on Friday said there was no record of Carson completing an application for admission. It is possible someone nominated him for the academy, but that would only have been an early step in the multi-part process of admission.

"Candidate files where admission/acceptance was not sought are retained for three years; therefore we cannot confirm whether anyone during that time period was nominated to West Point if they chose not to pursue completion of the application process," West Point spokeswoman Theresa Brinkerhoff said in an email to Reuters.

"No one can enter the academy without completing the entire admission process," she added.

The differing accounts of Carson's West Point scholarship were first reported by political news website Politico, in a story headlined "Ben Carson admits fabricating West Point scholarship."

Carson's campaign contested that interpretation.

"The Politico story is an outright lie," Watts said in an email to Reuters. "The campaign never 'admitted to anything.'"

CARSON HITS BACK

The fracas over West Point came only hours after Carson attacked the media for questioning his accounts of a violent past.

"This is a bunch of lies," Carson told CNN on Friday. "This is what it is, it's a bunch of lies attempting, you know, to say that I'm lying about my history. I think it's pathetic."

Carson, who is popular with evangelical voters, often speaks on the campaign trail about flashes of violence during his youth, casting the lessons he learned from that period as evidence he has the strength of character to be president.

In his autobiography, the renowned brain surgeon wrote that as a teen, he tried to stab a friend named Bob in the stomach with a knife, but the boy's belt buckle blocked the knife.

On Thursday on the campaign trail, when pressed by reporters about the incident and also in an interview with Fox News, Carson said that Bob's name, along with some other names in the autobiography, were pseudonyms that he used to protect the privacy of the people he was writing about.

He described Bob in the book as a friend and classmate. In the Fox News interview and on CNN, Carson said the boy was a "close relative."

Ben Carson's West Point, youth recollections come under question

Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson's recollection of being offered a scholarship to the prestigious U.S. Military Academy at West Point was questioned on Friday, potentially damaging the credibility of the 64-year-old retired neurosurgeon.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2015 7:59 AM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 07:59:38 -0500

I would say it's a lie. Politicians are sneaky with their vocabulary.

Response by PVT Robert Gresham made Nov 8 at 2015 8:13 AM

PVT Robert Gresham — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 08:13:03 -0500

SGM Private RallyPoint Member It sounds to me like I should say, "Oh, hey....It was just a slip of the tongue." Unfortunately for him, there are more stories from Dr Carson's new book being called into question. It was also interesting timing for Dr. Carson to bring out a book that extolled his many (heroic?) exploits, but when a Presidential candidate makes claims, especially about possible Military service, then the potential Commander-in-Chief better have his "ducks in a row" if he wants the Military vote.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2015 8:17 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 08:17:36 -0500

yeah he is a liar , and people in Iowa are falling for it . Unfortunately i also live in Iowa (temporarily thou)

Response by CAPT Tom Bersson made Nov 8 at 2015 8:17 AM

CAPT Tom Bersson — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 08:17:37 -0500

He wrote a biography. he is running for president. All is fair game. And honesty matters.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Nov 8 at 2015 8:23 AM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 08:23:51 -0500

Before you all try to take sides and convict this man on a scholarship offer or not, I challenge you to listen to this press conference......show me the facts, I think many of our RP'ers are piling on the witch hunt to discredit this man. Show me the facts, listen to the press conference and let me know what you think.....show me the proof.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx_Mh7apo6k

Full Video - Ben Carson Feisty Press Conference About West Point Scholarship - Defiant Ben Carson...

A defiant Ben Carson on Friday rejected the idea his past descriptions of receiving a scholarship offer to attend West Point were inaccurate, and called ques...

Response by LTC Kevin B. made Nov 8 at 2015 8:26 AM

LTC Kevin B. — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 08:26:34 -0500

In my opinion, the discussion of a scholarship versus an appointment is immaterial. The bigger issue is his wording about exactly what he was offered. I think most people know the difference between being informally recruited and "being offered a full scholarship". In my opinion, he was embellishing the truth. Is that a lie? I guess that depends on how you define a lie. Some people see a lie as being along a spectrum, with a full, blatant lie being on one extreme and an innocent, white lie being on the other extreme. At some point along that spectrum, you go from "unacceptable" to "acceptable". Others see a lie as being anything other than telling the full truth, and therefore any type of lie is unacceptable.

I won't judge him as being a liar. I just won't vote for him if he makes the general election.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2015 8:26 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 08:26:55 -0500

"I think what … these kinds of things show, is there is a desperation on behalf of some to try to find a way to tarnish me," Carson said Friday night during a news conference outside West Palm Beach, Fla.
At the Friday news conference, Carson said, "It was an offer to me. It was specifically made." He said he could not recall specifically who made the offer. "It's almost 50 years ago. I bet you don't remember all the people you talked to 50 years ago," he said.

Response by Maj Jeff Dodd made Nov 8 at 2015 8:55 AM

Maj Jeff Dodd — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 08:55:29 -0500

I see it as a witch hunt of sorts. I don't doubt that he was verbally told he would qualify for an appointment to USMA by his H.S. ROTC commander and/or other adults. He probably took that to mean offered a scholarship. I don't think I knew he difference at that age. As to the reports that he had a violent temper. Does that really matter? I would argue that most kids under 14 do stupid things every day but how does that pertain to their lives as adults? Look at what he did as an adult! He was a gifted doctor who helped better countless lives through his knowledge and skill. I hope people are smarter than to believe every sensationalized media story that comes out about this highly qualified candidate. I for one am ready for a non-politician to lead this country for a change.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2015 9:01 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 09:01:15 -0500

I think that most, if not all, of us do or could have the same problem.

Is saying something that is incorrect, but, is how you perceived it at the time a lie?

Then we are all liars.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2015 9:08 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 09:08:36 -0500

Let's just use the term we have heard so often in the past few years.

He misspoke.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2015 9:14 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 09:14:34 -0500

This guy is human. We all say things that probably doesn't use the correct verbage. It's no worse than the continual lies that we have heard for some time from others.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Nov 8 at 2015 9:16 AM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 09:16:44 -0500

It sounds like Dr. Carson has some memory issues. The media will take this make a giant mountain out off tandem attempt to destroy the man

Response by CW4 Guy Butler made Nov 8 at 2015 9:19 AM

CW4 Guy Butler — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 09:19:29 -0500

The problem is that these stories are coming from his autobiography, "Gifted Hands", published in 1992. There's a big difference between a 50 year gap and a 20 year gap.

Response by Capt Walter Miller made Nov 8 at 2015 9:31 AM

Capt Walter Miller — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 09:31:48 -0500

For something to be a lie, there must an intention to mislead.

I wouldn't worry about Ben Carson. He is not going to be the GOP nominee and if he is, He'll make George McGovern's finish against Nixon seem a photo-finish.

Walt

Response by PO1 John Miller made Nov 8 at 2015 9:46 AM

PO1 John Miller — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 09:46:47 -0500

Nothing more than a witch hunt in my opinion. The left (and right) will always find some little detail or comment made by the other side and try to destroy that person's credibility or even eligibility to run for office. Sarah Palin and her "I can see Russia from my house", Obama saying he had visited 57 states, etc.

Response by PFC Shawn Corey made Nov 8 at 2015 10:36 AM

PFC Shawn Corey — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 10:36:58 -0500

While the left loses their collective minds over this, Hillary should be brought up on federal charges, and be in prison. But that's none of my business.....

Response by MAJ Keith FitzPatrick, CPIM, CSCP made Nov 8 at 2015 11:30 AM

MAJ Keith FitzPatrick, CPIM, CSCP — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 11:30:02 -0500

I think the press is making a bit of a mountain out of a mole hill. I am sure someone mentioned that he could probably get an appointment to West Point given his success in JROTC and that he would not have to pay for school, aka "a full ride". Most non-military folks would think of that as a scholarship.

The fact that he is being dogged by this controversy is just a fact of politics these days. There are still politicians and media outlets who claim that President Obama was born in Kenya and is a Muslin. Both claims were proven false years ago, but they still dog the President.

As my high school girlfriend used to say, "what's good for the goose is good for the other goose."

All that said, I still wouldn't want that nut - job as president.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2015 12:05 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 12:05:08 -0500

One could argue that it depends on the intent of what was said.

Response by COL Sam Russell made Nov 8 at 2015 12:12 PM

COL Sam Russell — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 12:12:20 -0500

Hardly what I would call a lie, a man in his late 50's recollecting an incident that he understood only through his 17-year-old understanding. Hardly compares to Clinton's blatant, bald faced, lies about Benghazi.

Response by SGT Francis Wright made Nov 8 at 2015 12:44 PM

SGT Francis Wright — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 12:44:14 -0500

I wish all these candidates would treat this like any other job interview. Stick to the facts and tell the truth. No fabrication, just the facts.

Response by PO2 Peter Klein made Nov 8 at 2015 1:06 PM

PO2 Peter Klein — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 13:06:05 -0500

If it is an isolated instance probably not, but if it is a pattern, as in Carson's case it seems to be a whole lot of lies.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2015 1:38 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 13:38:37 -0500

I don't think the issue i scholarship vs appointment. I think he was trying to show acceptance at West Point because it is a tremendous honor that not many young people are able to achieve.

My gut suggests that he was never offered anything, formally or informally to do with West Point. One meeting at a crowded dinner that about medal of honor winners (the one time Carson and Westmorland met) didn't likely result in anything more than a "you should apply" suggestion, no matter how impressive you are.

Response by TSgt Kenneth Ellis made Nov 8 at 2015 4:02 PM

TSgt Kenneth Ellis — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 16:02:48 -0500

I've heard veterans call and defend Ben Carson. The letter they send out says Scolarship not appointment. And does it really matter? He did not say he applied. I'm more concerned with Hillary blaming an American citizen of what happen in Bengazi. Sending seven officers to perk walk him and imprison him. And she told the same story to the UN.

Response by SPC David S. made Nov 8 at 2015 6:33 PM

SPC David S. — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 18:33:29 -0500

Dr. Carson was the top ROTC student in the City of Detroit. In that role he was invited to meet General Westmoreland. He believes it was at a banquet. He can’t remember with specificity their brief conversation but it centered around Dr. Carson’s performance as ROTC City Executive Officer. He was introduced to folks from West Point by his ROTC Supervisors. They told him they could help him get an appointment based on his grades and performance in ROTC. He considered it but in the end did not seek admission. I find this troubling as Obama was smoking weed and doing coke at Occidental College and received financial aid as a foreign student from Indonesia as an undergraduate. Obama was awarded a fellowship for foreign students from the Fulbright Foundation Scholarship program. To qualify, for the scholarship, a student must claim foreign citizenship. Yet going to Yale and becoming a brain surgeon is a problem.

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made Nov 9 at 2015 1:08 AM

MAJ Keira Brennan — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 01:08:55 -0500

He sounds like he's on benzos. The agitation, outbursts, memory loss, psychosis, and delusions are ALL co-occurring disorders of benzo addictions. That is my take. Sedative,Hypnotic and Anxiolytic Use Disorder DSM-5 304.1 (F13.1)

Response by SrA Art Siatkowsky made Nov 9 at 2015 2:44 AM

SrA Art Siatkowsky — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 02:44:33 -0500

its such a stupid thing for the media to be attacking him on...guess they are pretty desperate since their hillary wont be getting elected.

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made Nov 9 at 2015 6:57 AM

MSgt Wayne Morris — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 06:57:42 -0500

The main stream media is in attack mode and will remain so for the next year. They long ago determined that Hillbillary was their candidate and are pissed that the citizens will even have a vote. As far as Carson lying, I think not and challenge anyone to remember exact details of something decades ago.

Response by SSG Robert Spina made Nov 9 at 2015 8:33 AM

SSG Robert Spina — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 08:33:16 -0500

THIS IS ALL ABOUT POLITICS. THE LEFT WING MEDIA IS TRYING TO DIG UP DIRT ON DR CARSON CAUSE THEY FIND HIM A THREAT TO HILLARY DID HE MISSPEAK I WOULD SAY HE DID EVERYONE OF THESE CANIDATES HAS TOLD A LIE OR TWO OR IN CLINTONS CASE A TRUCK LOAD OF LIES NOT CONDONING IT BUT THIS IS WHAT POLICTICS HAS BECOME HEY HILLARY CLAIMED THAT HER HELICOPTER WAS UNDER GUN FIRE WHICH TURNED OUT TO BE ONE OF HER MANY LIES

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2015 10:35 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 10:35:46 -0500

If I remember correctly, and it was only a few days ago, the so called news organizations had to keep on walking back “their story” about Dr. Carson’s encounter with Westmorland until it would pass the smell test. Example: At first the media kept saying that “Dr. Carson admitted he never applied to West Point” when “he never said he applied to West Point” to begin with… typical stuff news outlets try to do when they try to discredit someone. They must really be starting to get worried about Dr. Carson; that’s the good news. The news lies and they never have to be punished for it.

From what I’ve seen: Dr. Carson has more honor and fidelity in his little finger than all these so called news organizations put together.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Nov 9 at 2015 12:08 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 12:08:40 -0500

What many don't notice is that politicians make good use of all publicity either good of bad, because it keeps their name on peoples minds; which is free publicity and that get them votes.

Response by Sgt Kelli Mays made Nov 9 at 2015 2:40 PM

Sgt Kelli Mays — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 14:40:27 -0500

The left is grabbing at straws to try and find some way to discredit Dr. Carson.
A verbal offer is a verbal offer and there is no way of proving he never had a conversation with someone at WP and this was not offered to him...and as for the other issues...POPPY COCK! The left is trying to make mountains out of tiny little mole hills....
If the left is so gun hoed on getting the truth out they should be more concerned with all of the MANY MANY LIES Hillary has told so far.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Nov 9 at 2015 3:45 PM

COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 15:45:34 -0500

A few thoughts:
- I do not think Ben Carson lied.
- I think the media are being selective and arbitrary in who they target for reporting, what they target, and how they report it. Media bias is the short phrase.
- It would be interesting to see the media apply the same sort of scrutiny to Mr. Obama, Mrs. Clinton, and others. I am not asking for softball/easy reporting. I am just asking for the media to call it the same way on both sides of the game. That is demonstratably and provably NOT the case now.
- The above has negative and long lasting consequences for the United States. Our government is predicated upon an educated and informed population to make decisions and vote. The education comes from our schools which are failing while the information comes from our media which is not doing its job properly.

Response by PFC Shawn Corey made Nov 9 at 2015 5:21 PM

PFC Shawn Corey — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 17:21:59 -0500

"Bipartisan" Politico lied and scrambled to recover.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/06/media/ben-carson-politico-west-point/index.html

Response by Cpl Chris Rice made Nov 9 at 2015 7:37 PM

Cpl Chris Rice — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 19:37:27 -0500

It does seem to be overblown, however the problem that I see is bigger and it appears on the Republican side the most; the problem is that we have non-veterans who wish to be associated with the military. Could he have received an appointment to the USMA? I would imagine he could have, but he did not seek a career in the military. Remember he did not just state that he was solicited for entrance into USMA, he had dinner with General Westmoreland (Which he admits was untrue), and then he speaks as though a full appointment is a special way of attending the USMA. Donald Trump did the exact same thing when he touted his military style prep school as a form of military service.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2015 7:55 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 19:55:09 -0500

Liberals are a bunch of A-Holes! Why did they not give Presidentt ObamA (and say that ih no respect) due diligence? He (POTUS) continues to sucker punch the military and the dolts who support him. Ben Carson is a great surgeon and man of impeccable respect, only no now the liberal wolves lie and want to look into something. How about those 4 dead people and all these white and blacks who died so terribly..

Response by SrA Art Siatkowsky made Nov 10 at 2015 2:23 AM

SrA Art Siatkowsky — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 02:23:45 -0500

This guys is probably the most honest person running for pres. Look at how the media overlooks all the outright crimes Hillary committed and the dead servicemen she abandoned. This is such a stupid issue but the leftist media is struggling to find dirt on Ben and they are desperate because their girl Hillary has caused such a mess even they are having a hard time keeping it quiet.
Sorry media its a party change not just a presidential change coming next year no matter how much misinformation you put out there.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2015 10:14 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:14:29 -0500

SGT Robert Gresham, Thank you for your honest and forthright opinion on the matter. Point made, I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion as we all are (that’s still one of the great things about the country we live in) and when someone can give me an articulate explanation as to why they have their opinion on a matter of discussion I will respect them immensely for it.

Response by SSG David Spooner made Nov 10 at 2015 10:30 AM

SSG David Spooner — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:30:02 -0500

It's a witch hunt. He is the biggest threat to the left so get rid of him quickly. Like what happened with Herman Cain. Ever notice that once he was out of the presidential race you didn't ever hear about the issue again? Must not have been that big of an issue to pursue after he dropped out.

Response by TSgt Terry Crihfield made Nov 10 at 2015 11:39 AM

TSgt Terry Crihfield — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:39:15 -0500

I've heard military academy recruiters use the word "scholarship" when talking to high schoolers. Some of their own material uses the word. Dr. Carson is probably telling the truth...

Response by CW3 Jim Norris made Nov 10 at 2015 11:45 AM

CW3 Jim Norris — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:45:53 -0500

Nope, matter of fact Dr. Carson, in lacking any military exposure after high school. most probably correctly stated that West Point offered him a full scholarship - in his understanding of going to a school with no tuition, books, boards or meals cost - that surly appeared as an offer of a full time, fully paid scholarship. Especially with the events being recalled close to 50 years ago in my mind, somethings become a little faded - do I remember the exact words spoken by the minister to me and my dear wife 48 years ago, no....do I know he said something along the lines of 'Jim marriage is a serious commitment, not to be taken lightly'.....more than likely, did a member of the active duty entourage attending this ROTC gala see a fine young black ROTC cadet and say - I'm sure we could get you an appointment to West Point and a full scholarship......you bet. Dr. Carson is a man, of all of the candidates, whose integrity is a shining light of honesty, commitment and service. Unlike a certain other black man, whose records are sealed, whose associations are extremely Marxist leaning and who has lied repeatedly about his past and ObamaCare. "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor" - lie. Cost for the average family will go down - lie.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Nov 10 at 2015 1:40 PM

SPC Sheila Lewis — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:40:55 -0500

Question everything.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2015 6:58 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:58:58 -0500

A lot of it is just "gotcha politics" the same thing happens to politicians all the time. One that comes quickly to mind is Elizabeth Warren who thought she may have been American Indian because of family lore... even though she is not. Look hard enough into anyone's life and you'll find a little silliness.

What we should be discussing even more than the candidates themselves, are their positions on real issues. Neither Carson or Trump have any military experience, instead of hearing about how they went through ROTC or prep School, I'd like to know who they would appoint as Secretary of Defense and if they believe we should be spending more or less for Defense.

Response by Capt Terry Fillmore made Nov 10 at 2015 8:00 PM

Capt Terry Fillmore — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:00:08 -0500

It seems to me that people think that a presidential candidate must be perfect. No one is perfect and everyone forgets things. I do not expect anyone I vote for to be perfect. I look at things realistically. I read the book, "Gifted Hands", and Dr. Carson was not only brilliant, but he had common sense. He knows how to work with people. He knows how to make informed decisions. He's methodical and thinks things out before making decisions. I'm not giving my opinion, but facts. I don't even read what the media says, because I know they are going to twist and distort things to make the lazy, non-thinkers agree with them. In today's society, no one wants to think critically. I teach mathematics and the students simply mimic what I teach. That's a problem with many people today. They think they know everything (at least they have an opinion on everything), when in actuality they know little to nothing.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 11 at 2015 12:56 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:56:14 -0500

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a39579/ben-carson-debunked-west-point/

Ben Carson has stood by his claim about turning down the opportunity to attend West Point. Some say he lied about the facts; others say it is understandable that a then-17 year old might have not fully understood the circumstances or that it is understandable that decades later things as he remembered them may not have actually happened.

If you read the Bateman piece I've attached and still believe Carson to be a paragon of honesty, then I'd suggest that you try to understand this discussion by applying West Point's honor code. Carson seems to think he had what it takes to go to West Point; if the controversies surrounding his dubious statements offer any indication, it seems likely hat had Carson actually attended West Point, he would probably have been kicked out for honor violations. Bateman does a grand job of explaining Carson's dishonest tendencies. Let's look at this from a West Point honor code perspective.

The honor code states "A cadet will not lie, cheat, or steal nor tolerate those who do." Fairly straight-forward---lying, cheating, stealing, all unacceptable. Carson wrote, many times, and continues to assert that a specific event happened at a specific time, ie, that Westmoreland offered him a full ride scholarship to West Point one day in Detroit. History shows that Westmoreland was not in Detroit on the day Carson claims. U.S. Law shows that the process to get into West Point doesn't involve a general making such an offer. As Bateman discussed, it is much more complicated than that. So, on the face of it, Carson lied. A lie is a non-truth. This is pretty black and white. But many have suggested that intent matters. So let's look at intent.

West Point helpfully has a guide to help cadets determine if an action violates the honor code; the guide is called the three rules of thumb. Here it is:

Does this action attempt to deceive anyone or allow anyone to be deceived?
Does this action gain or allow the gain of a privilege or advantage to which I or someone else would not otherwise be entitled?
Would I be satisfied by the outcome if I were on the receiving end of this action?

For the first question, Carson voluntarily used this West Point scholarship story in his memoir, written in 1990 and used to propel him to fame and money over the last three decades. While his statements might not intentionally directly deceive anyone, they do allow others to be deceived, as readers could easily be led to believe that Carson had actually applied and been accepted and nominated to West Point, based in his statements alone, and his continued support of those statements.

For the second question, clearly this action allowed Carson to gain privilege or advantage. It helped him sell books, which made him a lot of money. It forms part of his rags-to-riches story. Only those actually nominated to and accepted by West Point are entitled the privilege of saying so.

The third question is a bit harder, but again Carson fails. I'm sure he'd take offense if someone claimed to be a magical neurosurgeon from Yale without actual pay being one.

So, by this West Point test, Carson lied.

Why does this matter? He is running for President! Framed by Carson's other apparent lies or mis-truths as explained by him over the years in the telling of his personal story (which is what he's been doing for the better part of three decades, nothing but telling his personal story), the West Point lie suggests Carson has an uneasy relationship with the truth. Combine this with his uneasy relationship with basic science and fact (no, the pyramids weren't granaries! No, tithing historically isn't what Carson thinks it was!), and Carson appears to be worryingly disconnected from reality.

Now, a great deal of comments on this thread make the argument that Carson's lie about West Point pales in comparison to alleged Hilary Clinton lies about her emails or other issues. To me, this misses the point. Clinton's actions deserve scrutiny.......on their own terms. Is it ok for Carson to lie just because Clinton may have? Shouldn't we hold both of them accountable?

Lots of comments about the left and the liberal media using Carson's West Point lie as an opportunity to write hit pieces on him. Guess what? This is what the media does--it helps vet candidates. It's not just the media that are taking shots at Carson on this---GOP darling Trump is hitting hard, as well. And to suggest that Carson is being unfairly targetted is nonsense. The media has done a fabulous job through the years of pursuing both liberals and conservatives (think Bill Clinton; John Edwards; and the dozens of other Democrats and Republicans whose indiscretions have been uncovered and reported by the press). Also---the vetting of Carson is just getting started. The longer he stays in the race, the more we will learn about him. If his past week is any indication, we will be seeing a lot more of a defensive Carson explaining how what he said or claims to have done wasn't a lie.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Military_Academy_alumni

That's a list of distinguished West Point graduates. Carson claiming to have turned down attending Weat Point is a self-aggrandize get attempt to place himself among this group.

Maybe it's just men of a certain age that have an issue with the truth---best I can tell, had Carson gone to Weat Point and graduated, he would have been classmates with convicted felon and liar David Patreaus, Class of 1974.

Final comment----none of this will have an impact on the GOP primary process. The GOP nomination is largely determined by moderate Republicans in blue states, not by the GOP primary voters in Iowa, and not by leaders in national polls this early in the process. Carson doesn't offer moderate Republicans much; they are much more likely to support Rubio or Kasich. However, if Carson does end up somehow winning the Republican nomination, his penchant for not telling the truth will be a factor in the general election. The future Democratic nominee would be oh-so-happy for Carson to win the GOP nomination. Simply, he is unelectable, only partially because he seems unable to distinguish fact from fiction in his personal life.

Ben Carson Debunked: Inside His Made-Up West Point Story

He claimed time and again—as recently as last Friday–that he was offered entrance to the military academy in 1969. Here's proof that he's not telling the truth.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Nov 11 at 2015 1:15 PM

Capt Seid Waddell — Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:15:12 -0500

It is a witch hunt. The left is trying to take down a leader in the primary race.

Response by COL Ted Mc made Nov 11 at 2015 7:35 PM

COL Ted Mc — Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:35:45 -0500

Sgt James Howard - Sergeant; Since the US government has already stated that the eMails which "everyone" is claiming were "classified" were, in fact, NOT "classified" how does saying that there were no "classified" eMails on her server translate into a "lie"?

Response by MSgt David Roberson made Nov 12 at 2015 12:24 PM

MSgt David Roberson — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 12:24:07 -0500

I would say that recruiters would use terminology that he could relate to such as "full scholarship" in order so he could compare that with a university. If he had been interested then they would have educated him on the process.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Nov 12 at 2015 2:37 PM

PO1 Glenn Boucher — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:37:09 -0500

I think that anyone who runs for public office opens themselves up to microscopic scrutiny and that any tidbit that is juicy or can be twisted to make headlines is going to happen.
What I care most about is if these politicians are going to do anything of substance to keep our country great.
I really don't care if Candidate X smoked weed at a party on a Friday night in 1964.
I really don't care if Candidate Y got a speeding ticket and was caught with an open container of beer when they were 18 in 1970.
I really don't care if Candidate Z talked to one of the service academies and was told they would be a great fit there but decided to go elsewhere for an education.
I do care if any Candidate has done things to improve their life and also to improve our country.
I do care if any Candidate is willing to make the hard choices that a President has the guts to stand by their decision without blaming anyone or anything.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Nov 12 at 2015 10:18 PM

LTC Bink Romanick — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:18:24 -0500

SGM Private RallyPoint Member Carson knowingly lied. Anyone who covers for a liar lacks character.

Response by CAPT Tom Bersson made Dec 1 at 2015 6:28 PM

CAPT Tom Bersson — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 18:28:06 -0500

a tricky question. Can one lie without intent? Not sure. In his case, he should have known better as he brought them out in his auto-biography.