Pay Grade Vs. Rank/Title

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 15:36:57 -0400

<p>How do you feel about SMs, especially Leaders, addressing or referring to someone by pay grade instead of rank or position?  Are you guilty of it?  Do you correct SMs on it?</p>

If you read the post SSG Joaquin Goicoechea wrote, you may understand my post better:

"I am in passing and I over hear SSG A speaking to SSG B about a SSG C and instead of using his rank they refer to SSG C as "that E6". If this in fact is what you are referring to then I completely understand why it bothers you. "

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2014 3:43 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 15:43:37 -0400

I want to be called by my rank not grade

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2014 3:45 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 15:45:07 -0400

A Pay grade is just that a pay grade.  The rank is  the correct form of address.  

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2014 3:50 PM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 15:50:20 -0400

If you refer to yourself as an "E-6" instead of a "SSG", you may as well call yourself a "Spec 6".

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Apr 19 at 2014 4:41 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 16:41:05 -0400

Hey, some like the pay instead of the responsibility...I guess you're addressed how someone perceives your actions.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Apr 19 at 2014 5:32 PM

SPC Charles Brown — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 17:32:45 -0400

Call me by my rank Corporal, I earned it. I am not a designate of E-4 that is my pay scale level and I am more than that.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2014 7:37 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 19:37:00 -0400

My thoughts on this is that, for the most part, the rank given has been earned and therefore deserves to have proper title associated with it. I will caveat that there are SMs that are a drain on the army and are not even deserving of the title or pay grade that they hold.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2014 8:37 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 20:37:45 -0400

I haven't seen this much but it seems disrespectful to me

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 9:35 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 21:35:07 -0400

I am not going to say that it is 'disrespectful'....but I know that I have never been a fan of calling someone an 'E5'.....E5 is a paygrade....If someone walked up to me and said, 'Good morning, E8 Stewart!' I would probably be upset. Use rank as a title....you have earned it!

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made Apr 29 at 2014 12:07 PM

SSgt Gregory Guina — Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:07:23 -0400

In the limited exposure that I have had with other services it seems to be much more prevelant there than in the marine Corps. In the Mairne Corps usually when you hear of a Marine being referred to as E5 or whatever it is because they are underperforming or are just not a very good NCO. We tend to use it only as a deragatory.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2014 12:33 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:33:27 -0400

Many of you seem to interpret my question as referring to others addressing me as an E-5, which isn't the case. I'm referring to other Leaders addressing other Leaders in general without regard to respect or lack thereof. It seems I've seen this more than those of you who responded. I wonder if that's because of the few organizations I've been a part of.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Apr 29 at 2014 10:28 PM

SSG V. Michelle Woods — Tue, 29 Apr 2014 22:28:41 -0400

I personally don't care if someone refers to me as a staff sergeant or an E-6. I take pride in both just the same.
However I refer to others by their rank as a sign of respect in case that person finds it offensive to be referred to by grade.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2014 10:40 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Apr 2014 22:40:02 -0400

To me, it goes right along with Soldiers addressing a 1SG as "Top". If you use the term "Top", don't even act like anything else offends you or should be corrected when addressing others. I also hear Soldiers addressing a CSM as that, "CSM", instead of "Sergeant Major". I've NEVER used "Top" or "CSM", those aren't ranks in the Army. Yes, I'm the NCO who actually addresses a MSG as "Master Sergeant", a 1SG as "First Sergeant", and a SGM and/or CSM as "Sergeant Major". They earned it, so they deserve the respect of the rank. And one day, when I earn it, I'll expect the same.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2014 12:09 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 00:09:10 -0400

Paygrade is between the SM and DFAS. For everything else it's your rank.

Edit: AFI 1-1 para. 1.6.5 Titles of Address. Military personnel are addressed by their grade or title. Pay grade terms (e.g., E-9, O-6) are not to be used to address or identify military personnel.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2014 1:56 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 01:56:26 -0400

I voted that it is not a big deal but I do not like the practice. I do not feel it is disrespectful but I believe it is bad practice and I myself do not refer to any Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine by there paygrade.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2014 2:11 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 02:11:46 -0400

The only time I've heard pay grade be used is over radio transmissions "this is echo six foxtrot". Apart from that, slap yourself if you are thinking about calling me E-6 over Staff Sergeant, that's just stupid.

Response by SSG Robert Blum made Apr 30 at 2014 2:15 AM

SSG Robert Blum — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 02:15:28 -0400

When I hear a Soldier say "Man I cant wait to pin on my E-5." I ask the Soldier "What do you want to be an E-5 or a Sergeant." and then we talk about what being a Leader means. If all your thinking about is the pay raise, and not what it truly means to wear the rank of Sergeant, Staff Sergeant, etc... Then maybe you shouldn't be in charge of Soldiers. I earned the right to be addressed as Sergeant, and I do everything I can to live up to what is expected of an Army Leader. My subordinates have busted their behinds to be addressed by their Military Rank. So yes I correct Soldiers, and Seniors. Even when dealing with another service, I make it a point to address them correctly by their rank, according to their service customs and courtesies and correct my Soldiers when they fail to do so.

Response by MSG Wade Huffman made Apr 30 at 2014 5:35 AM

MSG Wade Huffman — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 05:35:06 -0400

I can remember WAY back (I think it was around the mid to late 1980s) there was a HUGE push in the Army to use the correct title and not pay grade then speaking of / to Soldiers. It was a big issue then (honestly, at that point in my career I wasn't concerned whether I was refereed to as a SPC or E4 - both were so common), maybe it's becoming an issue again.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2014 7:07 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 07:07:23 -0400

I always address by their rank and I think that's the correct way.

Response by PO2 Rocky Kleeger made Apr 30 at 2014 8:02 AM

PO2 Rocky Kleeger — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 08:02:31 -0400

I was in the Navy. Petty: insignificant. Officer: leader of men. Petty Officer: insignificant leader of men.

Don't call me petty. Rate and grade is what I preferred

Response by SFC Vernon McNabb made Apr 30 at 2014 10:24 AM

SFC Vernon McNabb — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 10:24:03 -0400

I think it would depend on what the situation is. If someone, say a civilian, or a member of a different service than mine is asking, I would explain using the pay grade. When I was a SSG, speaking with a member of the Air Force, I let them know that SSG was E-6, the same as their TSgt. Their SSgt was the same as Army SGT. I agree with SSG Woods, I earned both at the same time. I think the better question to ask is "Are you a SGT, or and NCO?"

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Apr 30 at 2014 10:25 AM

CPT Zachary Brooks — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 10:25:30 -0400

I see it as a good way to differenciate between the services so that you can determine someone's currently level of authority, but I do not feel it should be used to directly address someone. I have a former Navy E-6 that works with me civilian side and I cannot for the life of me remember all the Navy, Air Force, Marine, and Army ranks together, but knowing that he was an E-6 shows me the level of authority he earned. I also now know that he was a Petty Officer First Class and how that stacks up to the Army's Staff Sergeants.

Response by SFC Stephen Hester made Apr 30 at 2014 10:56 AM

SFC Stephen Hester — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 10:56:27 -0400

I've always believed that rank is the proper form of address even though we use rank and pay grade interchangeably. Why would anyone say "Good Morning, E-5" vs "Good Morning, Sergeant"?

For the Army the official guidance comes from AR 600-20 which states that "the numerical pay grade will not be used as a form of address or title in place of the proper title of address of grade. A Soldier holding the numerical pay grade of E–5 will be addressed as “Sergeant,” not as "E–5"." (paragraph 1-6.c.)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2014 11:47 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 11:47:11 -0400

I usually hear it from Soldiers saying that they are going to the E-5 board or something along those lines, and I usually ask them are you going to the Sergeant Board, or are you just a pay grade?

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Apr 30 at 2014 8:52 PM

SPC Christopher Smith — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 20:52:19 -0400

Seeing how not too often rank is taken and not pay grade, they are interchangeable. If you need to hear your rank that bad, there might be personal issues with yourself. Jmo

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2014 5:38 AM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 May 2014 05:38:32 -0400

I think when we refer to someone by pay grade it's because they don't warrant the respect of the rank...typically it's a bad thing.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2014 7:26 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 May 2014 19:26:32 -0400

The only exception is when referring to a group of SPC's and CPL's, or for administrative purposes i.e. today I was asking for DOR from everyone in my section and we have a CPL who was just promoted last month, so I told them i need your date of rank as an E4. Other then that rank is earned, paygrade just comes with it.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jul 8 at 2014 10:24 AM

LTC Paul Labrador — Tue, 08 Jul 2014 10:24:53 -0400

Honestly I've never heard anyone being called "E-6 Smith" vs "SSG Smith". The only time I've ever heard of a pay grade being referred to is when speaking in third person generic terms (ie. "that's is an E-6 slot", "he's one of the best E-6's I've ever worked with").

Response by SGT Christopher Edwards made Jul 9 at 2014 12:40 PM

SGT Christopher Edwards — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 12:40:50 -0400

It's not that big of a deal and if you have a problem you can take it up with my E-7. Other than that I address him/her by their rank unless told otherwise.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2014 4:11 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Jul 2014 16:11:10 -0400

I for one hear it all the time in my organization and I correct the problem immediately. In my unit we have even put it out during formations that we are to address each other by our rank. I think when it comes to addressing Soldiers by their appropriate rank our brothers and sisters in the Marine Corp got it right. For example, a Staff Sergeant is a Staff Sergeant not a Sergeant. I beleive we in the army need to start addressing Soldiers by their appropriate rank and stop calling everyone Sergeant.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2014 3:06 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 15:06:50 -0400

In the Navy, referring to a Chief as an E7 is an insult. The same holds true for Senior Chiefs and Master Chiefs. A Chief of any rank has been accepted into the Mess, an E7 (E8 or E9) is someone who has elected not to go through the process of becoming accepted by the Mess.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2014 10:49 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 22:49:09 -0400

Your poll is telling in that it gives perspective as to the meaning behind what you overheard. For example, in the past if a Navy if a Chief Petty Officer (E-7) chose not to go through the Initiation process when selected for promotion from E-6 to E-7, they were not considered a "Chief" but an "E-7."

There's a difference between what you wear and who you are. Truth be told, that moral barometer is the best indication of when someone is ready to advance to the next paygrade. The old civilian saying "Dress for the job you want, not the job you have" is relevant here. We military folk can't very well dress for the job we want (e.g. the next higher grade), but we can act like we already have it. That's how we esteem ourselves to our superiors -- the word "superiors" being used very loosely here because not everyone who outranks us is "superior."

However, those who fail to live up to the expectations of the next higher grade despite wearing it on their collar or on their shoulder are rightly referred to informally in unofficial conversation by their paygrade because they're not only making a bad name for themselves, but they're also ruining the reputation of the GOOD leaders who wore that rank in the past through their own stupidity.

To answer your question, yes. It's bad form to speak ill of your peers or superiors in front of junior personnel. However, it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it damn sure ain't cocker spaniel. But if you're a real leader and not just someone who who's looking for scuttlebutt in the smoke pit you'll pull not only the two you overheard talking too loudly aside to straighten them out, but also the person they were talking about....if they truly need some improvement.

Response by PO3 Jordan W. made Aug 6 at 2014 12:13 AM

PO3 Jordan W. — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 00:13:24 -0400

What I have come to learn with my leadership is that when you are referred to by your grade instead of your rank you are being deemed "that guy" We all know them. The leader of whom no one can seem to get along with or sets the low morale.

It would be a crime to refer to a Chief as just an E-7. But I have heard it done, and it wasn't referring to him in a respectful manner. Referring to someone by their pay grade is deemed as them not earning the title of Chief, or SSGT, or what have you.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2014 7:30 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 19:30:17 -0400

not cool in the navy

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Dec 23 at 2014 11:41 AM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 11:41:07 -0500

The reason behind it is that in the Army there now are only 3 pay grades that have different ranks, excepting, of course, acting jacks. When the grade thing started, there were two or more for every grade from E-4 to E-9.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 11:49 AM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 11:49:46 -0500

I would never in my life dream of calling a Chief "that E-7." I'd have been cleaning pad eyes with a toothbrush for the rest of my enlistment.

Response by LTC Herman Cohen made Dec 24 at 2014 11:41 AM

LTC Herman Cohen — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 11:41:48 -0500

The only time it's of any value (IMHO) to know pay grades is if you aren't sure that the officer (probably in civvys) someone just called Captain is an 0-3 Captain (Army, etc) or an 0-6 Captain (Navy). Other than that it's disrespectful.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Apr 19 at 2015 3:10 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 15:10:55 -0400

Needs another option in the survey. It is fairly common practice to refer generally to SMs by pay grade in a joint command: 'O3s' is easier and more precise to all services than 'LTs and Capts' or 'E7's' instead of "GySgts, SFCs, Chiefs and MSgts".... see how that could get old? now in specific I would always refer by rank, but in general pay grades can make sense.

Response by SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA made Apr 19 at 2015 8:26 PM

SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 20:26:09 -0400

I do this and hear this all the time, and have never thought anything of it. I particularly will use grade instead of rank when discussing things with those in other branches, like my brother PO3 Private RallyPoint Member.

Response by CW5 Jim Steddum made Apr 19 at 2015 8:32 PM

CW5 Jim Steddum — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 20:32:19 -0400

It could be disrespectful, but just seems ignorant to me... Depends on the context.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 10:44 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 22:44:41 -0400

I am not sure I have ever heard that in conversation. not when referring to a specific person.

I dunno if it is really disrespectful though.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 3:48 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 03:48:47 -0400

It is disrespectful but if the NCO deserves it then that is what they should be called. Case in point you have a SFC who is only concerned about themselves and a payheck, not the unit, not the mission and especially not about the Soldier. In this case they deserve to be called E7 Last name here not SFC last name here.

Response by TSgt David Case made Jul 30 at 2015 12:56 AM

TSgt David Case — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 00:56:24 -0400

Do they behave like a SSG or an E-6?
There is a difference.

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made Mar 25 at 2016 8:16 AM

CPT Mark Gonzalez — Fri, 25 Mar 2016 08:16:25 -0400

When talking directly to an individual rank is best. When talking about groups of people, especially in a joint environment, pay grade may be more appropriate. You'll see this mostly in evals where the rater has four personnel of that pay grade, but only one is in the Army or when talking about manning documents. Also for utilization as a CPT it isn't uncommon over the phone for them to ask it I am a Navy Captain if they don't know me and on forms.

Response by SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres made Oct 9 at 2018 5:56 PM

SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres — Tue, 09 Oct 2018 17:56:59 -0400

Had a female E-5 SGT refer to me as "This Soldier". Even though I was an E-5 SGT as well. I corrected her on the spot and stated that I earned my rank and pay grade just as she did.

It definitely irritated me but I kept my bearing. Didn't help that her and the rest of her command would causing grief and trouble over the dispatch paperwork.

My example took place when the female SGT went to my 1SG saying that I was giving them a hard time. After everything was settled, I still needed a signature from their supervisor for the vehicle dispatch paperwork. When I met that E-5 SGT in charge, he proceeded to give me flack and be smart with me, thinking I was messing with the female SGT. I basically took his disrespect, despite all of us being in the same rank and grade. It all stemmed from their personnel not being proactive. The only one that was working with me was the E-4 Specialist, both the NCOs aforementioned were toxic and disrespectful.