Oregon Rules Christian Bakers Who Refused Gay Wedding to Pay $135,000 Fine For Couple's Suffering. Who Pays Costs Of Religious Persecution?

2015-04-24T19:27:29-04:00

Without the expert testimony of psychologists or therapists, the State of Oregon has determined that the extent of suffering caused by one lesbian couple who were politely declined service on religious grounds by one bakery should result in said bakery paying said couple $135,000 for a myriad of symptoms the couple allege stem from the emotional trauma caused by the refusal of service, to include: “acute loss of confidence,” “doubt,” “excessive sleep,” “felt mentally raped, dirty and shameful,” “high blood pressure,” “impaired digestion,” “loss of appetite,” “migraine headaches,” “pale and sick at home after work,” “resumption of smoking habit,” “shock” “stunned,” “surprise,” “uncertainty,” “weight gain” and “worry.” Hmmm. These sound strangely similar to the many symptoms Aaron and Melissa Klein have likely experienced upon being unfairly forced out of business, and now unjustly being compelled to expend their life's savings paying a tyrannical fine. Who then, shall they file claim against?

State Says Bakers Should Pay $135,000 for Refusing to Bake Cake for Same-Sex Wedding

Aaron and Melissa Klein, owners of Sweet Cakes by Melissa, are being fined $135,000 for refusing to make a cake for a same-sex wedding.

Response by SGT Michael Touchet made Apr 24 at 2015 7:31 PM

2015-04-24T19:31:56-04:00

Incredible! This is insane!

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Apr 24 at 2015 7:31 PM

2015-04-24T19:31:33-04:00

I believe in the freedom of private business owners to refuse anyone service for any reason. And in the right of customers to shop elsewhere organize boycotts or protest.

Response by SPC Carl K. made Apr 24 at 2015 7:43 PM

2015-04-24T19:43:08-04:00

Quite frankly, if I were the baker in question, I would bake them their cake, but I would forget something important like sugar. The cake will be horrible, but they can't say I didn't bake them one.

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made Apr 24 at 2015 8:04 PM

2015-04-24T20:04:16-04:00

Well, I can tell you right now allows a Christian in the state, I move out. Ain't no way in the world I would ever pay them this is blasphemy if they do pay.
They need to start moving to states that actually believe in freedom of speech, freedom of faith and religion. And also, being in a state that's a strong supporter of Second Amendment rights

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 24 at 2015 8:05 PM

2015-04-24T20:05:35-04:00

Business 201.

Never turn away business. If you DON'T want the job, price yourself out of the job. Make the job so expensive that the customer goes somewhere else, OR that if they accept it you are HAPPY to take their money.

If the cake is $100.00, make it $1000.00. "Based on our current commitments, I can't do it less than $1000.00." You aren't turning them away, you are allowing them to make an informed Capitalistic decision.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Apr 24 at 2015 8:21 PM

2015-04-24T20:21:29-04:00

I like cake just like any other fat kid, but I have never suffered $135,000 for not getting my grub on. Then again, I would have just made the dang cake and not force my religion or beliefs on anyone. Take down the signs that say we have the right to refuse service to anyone. I can't wait for the order of a wedding cake topped with Johnny Jihad cutting off an infidels head. Will they get more than $135,000?

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 24 at 2015 8:42 PM

2015-04-24T20:42:26-04:00

Everyone, send a cake to the couples home. I hope they get over a thousands cakes.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Apr 24 at 2015 8:45 PM

2015-04-24T20:45:25-04:00

That is some list of symptoms that they suffered! I would have thrown the BS flag on that. "Mentally raped?" I take it neither of the couple ever endured military training. How much should we get for constantly being told we were going to get "skull fu@#$d?? THAT is mental rape!

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made Apr 24 at 2015 8:48 PM

2015-04-24T20:48:01-04:00

So much for the idea of freedom of association on either side of this unfortunate equation.

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made Apr 24 at 2015 8:58 PM

2015-04-24T20:58:04-04:00

I get a bit of a giggle when I hear about "religious persecution" coming from US Citizens.
Try living in a Catholic on Protestant on Catholic (ad nauseam) hell hole like Ireland for a hundred years and check back with us.

Response by SSgt Thomas L. made Apr 24 at 2015 10:52 PM

2015-04-24T22:52:55-04:00

The same excuses were used during the civil rights era to maintain segregation. "It's against my religion to mix races!" "God does not want whites and blacks to mix!" They quoted biblical verses saying that God commanded that members of different "tribes" and races not intermingle. They also said how much they were being "persecuted" by being forced to "endure" racial integration. Same story... same bigotry.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2015 12:26 AM

2015-04-25T00:26:27-04:00

They didn't wanna bake the cake why not go somewhere else. All the above named "loss of appetite, high blood pressure etc...." Other (man+woman) couples suffer from that too before their wedding day lol!! Just ridiculous in my opinion.

Response by PO1 John Meyer, CPC made Apr 25 at 2015 7:30 AM

2015-04-25T07:30:12-04:00

What gets me about all of this is the fact that the government is getting involved and forcing its opinion upon the private sector.

Let the free market decide this once and for all!

Allow the people to decide if the bakery succeeds or not because of what they did, not the government.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2015 9:54 AM

2015-04-25T09:54:30-04:00

Total Horsecrap. Bigotry of a kind and they should appeal that asinine judge for selective discrimination. And that judge removed from his judgeship. Partisan hack and a moron.

Response by SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA made Apr 25 at 2015 10:35 AM

2015-04-25T10:35:45-04:00

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member Religious prosecution?

NO.

Just the same, why not criticize the religious prosecution from the store owners who used that ruse to deny service to the lesbian couple.

EDITED for typographical error, unable to type @ character from phone.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2015 3:29 PM

2015-04-25T15:29:06-04:00

They could have avoided it all if they just made the damn cake. Fuck LET THEM EAT CAKE

Response by SrA Daniel Hunter made Apr 25 at 2015 5:32 PM

2015-04-25T17:32:26-04:00

There is a bit of a bias out there.

https://youtu.be/RgWIhYAtan4

HIDDEN CAM: #GayWeddingCakes at Muslim Bakeries?

For more, go to http://louderwithcrowder.com! Will Muslim bakeries make a gay wedding cake? Surpriiiise! Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/scrowder L...

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2015 5:49 PM

2015-04-25T17:49:28-04:00

How would the courts of Oregon rule on this one?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2015 10:41 PM

2015-04-25T22:41:04-04:00

No shirt, no shoes, no same sex, no service. That's old fashion and sucks.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2015 10:58 PM

2015-04-25T22:58:50-04:00

I ran across this picture and wanted to share it. People better be ready for orders like the cake business. The homosexual are out of the closet and in your face. Get used to it. They are God's people also. One of my uncles is gay, but you'd never know it. He doesn't try to hide it. He just does his thing. He's a cool guy with a kick ass Corvette. Anyway, here's the picture.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2015 7:31 AM

2015-04-26T07:31:12-04:00

This whole conflict is loaded with total hypocrisy on both sides.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Apr 26 at 2015 11:58 AM

2015-04-26T11:58:54-04:00

Who pays the cost of those who have been denied education or employment due to EO or similar causes?? My wife was denied entry to grad school for speech pathology (a masters is required to become a speech pathologist) 3 times, not because of her GPA but because her skin color and ethnic background weren't correct and the quota for whites had been reached. She was never able to get her masters in her career field and had to get another bachelors degree in a quasi-related field, that we had to pay for, to get her into a career. We feel owed but are also damn sure uncle Obama is not going to write that check!

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Apr 26 at 2015 12:03 PM

2015-04-26T12:03:44-04:00

Why should anyone be forced to accept something? Its bad enough that if you don't see eye to eye with a labeled social group on every specific point they condemn you as being unaccepting of their group.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Apr 26 at 2015 12:49 PM

2015-04-26T12:49:06-04:00

Refusing service to someone is not religious freedom, its hate freedom.

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Apr 27 at 2015 1:25 AM

2015-04-27T01:25:46-04:00

First off, the lawsuit is an overreach. I fail to see how any judge with creditability would fall for this emotional trauma sob story and award over a $130K to this couple.

That being said, business owners can't discriminate against people and hide behind religion. It's a bad precedence, and we'd be taking a step backward regarding equality. The court was clearly sending a message

If the business owners want their freedom of religion rights respected, they need to respect their clients right to freedom from their religion.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Apr 27 at 2015 9:21 AM

2015-04-27T09:21:20-04:00

This is disgusting on so many levels. IF the LGBTQIA (or whatever the hodgepodge of letters is today/everyone BUT heterosexuals) want to boycott the bakery, fine. To fine a baker this insane amount is, as the story states, tyrannical. I might be willing to consider some form of fine if there was a bakers guild and this couple was unable to go to another bakery across the street and get a cake, but destroying someone's business and bankrupting them because of someone wanted to force someone to do something against their belief is what government is supposed to try and protect.

IF the State of Oregon thinks someone should be fined $135,000 for not making someone a cake, how much are veterans owed for the myriad of symptoms we all have faced dealing with the VA? Additionally, when dealing with the VA, these are things we were promised decades ago AND not services we can walk down the street to another provider and get?

Response by MSG Gerry Poe made Apr 27 at 2015 9:34 AM

2015-04-27T09:34:47-04:00

I try to look at it from both sides but a business owner should have the right to refuse service to anyone. Yes, it is money not made but it's the owners decision. I personally would have made the cake and profited off the job! Still I find this a bit of an overkill!!!

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Apr 27 at 2015 9:59 AM

2015-04-27T09:59:45-04:00

I think the judgment is a slap in the face to everyone and sets a dangerous standard. There needs to be tolerance and understanding on BOTH sides. IMHO, If LGBT community wants universal acceptance, they can't be putting their agenda in everyone's face first then complain they aren't being accepted by EVERYONE. Heterosexual couples don't walk around flaunting Heterosexuality in people's faces to get attention, so neither should any other group. Just act naturally w/o attracting attention.

Our local Boy Scout council does not restrict anyone based on gender orientation/preference despite the national organization's unfortunate policy. We don't ask because its not relevant to our program and no one needs to tell because it's their personal business. Sexuality is not part of the Boy Scout agenda and never has been. A lot of Boy Scout sponsor organizations are Christian Churches. Thankfully none locally have closed their doors to us over the issue of LGBT scouts and adult leaders. The churches that support us have not questioned us on our membership so long as they are people who pass a criminal background check and take youth protection training.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2015 10:08 AM

2015-04-27T10:08:36-04:00

This goes beyond equal rights and goes directly into pure greed. Destroy a family just because you cannot go to another damned bakery.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Apr 27 at 2015 12:23 PM

2015-04-27T12:23:21-04:00

Each individual's liberty suffers at the imposition of behavior by another, or by government. We need to weigh the loss of freedom against the potential harm of lack of fairness, or inequality. In this case, could the bakers legally go on vacation instead of refusing? Could the gay couple have easily found a different bakery? Am I allowed to be grossed out by some sexual behaviors? Who sets the rules on what I am allowed to think? This case gives me emotional trauma. Who can I sue?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2015 1:24 PM

2015-04-27T13:24:23-04:00

For context, I'm a left-leaning, individual-liberty supporting, patriotic, american-born atheist. That being said:

I.D.G.A.flying.F. what the law is. A business owner that is not accepting tax exemptions or state support for their business has every right to refuse service to anyone they want. They have a right to employ anyone they want. As evil as discrimination seems to me, what right have I, or the state, to require them to serve person they do not wish to associate with. Anyone's religion or sexual orientation almost seems irrelevant here to me.

Now, the only way I can see these results being close to sane is if the business did break an agreement with the couple that did inconvenience them and cause them to spend more money than they should have directly because of that. A possible example being if the business initially agreed to make the cake, and only close to the date of the event refused service. Even if they returned the money, the couple may be unfairly inconvenienced. IDK, I'm not a lawyer. I can't find facts to indicate one way or another on this topic.

I've been shaking my head in disgust since this story first broke.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2015 1:49 PM

2015-04-27T13:49:35-04:00

It sounds like they were a lap waiting for a cup of coffee. It is a little late for this case, but what if we came to a compromise in the future. Instead of asking for a wedding cake, ask for a custom tiered cake on a certain date. Bakers can insist on not putting a cake topper on due to it not being a food item of something. Nudge nudge wink wink, no one has damning knowledge on either side. Lawsuit are avoided, fortunes are neither won nor lost in the court of law that day due to cake and everyone get along with their lives. But that would never make headlines so I best not get my hopes up.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2015 2:50 PM

2015-04-27T14:50:48-04:00

I think people have a right to freedom of association. Why would you force someone who doesn't like you to bake you a cake? On the flip side, why should people who don't like a good or service be forced to buy it? And if a person wants someone to come to accept his/her side, s/he should use persuasion, not coercion. I don't see why gov't won't take a neutral position in these matters, as opposed to picking sides.

I don't think the 9th Amendment is clear enough for these folks, I think we may need an amendment that explicitly permits freedom of association. It would remove bias from more than just the social arena.

Response by SMSgt Donald Polaski made Apr 27 at 2015 3:28 PM

2015-04-27T15:28:12-04:00

My reply is short and to the point..
First it was the Hot cup of coffee ordered by the driver who then held it between her knees or legs, and sued because it spilled and burned her.. Did she think she ordered ice coffee..
Now it is religious preference takes a back seat..

The common denominator is the legal system.. More accurately, the judges we have so wittingly put on the bench. None of this would be an issue - if the judges did their job and stop
trying to create laws (that task belongs to the legislators - who carry their own portion of guilt for failing to do their jobs).. Judges are not in for life (not even the supreme court), can we spell impeachment?
Course now we have to look at who put these fools in office? OOPs! Twas the voting (or non-voting) citizens.
So starting with us citizens, we need to create change and start now. Get to know who you are voting for. Also, get out and vote. People wonder how things got the way they are - well? If Joe citizen isn't going to watch or pay attention, then Joe citizen will never know what hit him.. This is not the Gay sectors problem, they are just using the freedom given to them by the judges who we put in office.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a crime that has been committed here. Question now is what are we going to do about it? I don't like Brussel Sprouts - Should I be able to force stores to not sell them?

Democracy takes work. So let's go to work and fix it.. Start paying attention to what is happening.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2015 4:32 PM

2015-04-27T16:32:00-04:00

Simple answer, no one.
When you open your business doors to the public, you open them to just that. THE PUBLIC.
You don't get to pick and choose who you provide service to, that's not the way operating a business works. If that is the case they need to close their doors to the public and bake cakes out of their house and solicit business via their Facebook friends list.
From a religious stand-point, why should these owners even care that their clients are gay? Shouldn't "he without sin cast the first stone"? This is flat out discrimination. Let me put it to you this way....

-Would it be okay for a business to turn me away because it's their religious freedom to not serve black people? (Refer to the Jim Crow laws)
-Would it be okay for a business to turn me away because it's their religious freedom to not serve military members?
-Would it be okay for a business to turn away straight people because it's their religious freedom?

I'm just saying, all people should be treated equally, especially if you are going to serve the public. It's one thing if they went into the bakery and acted belligerent, rude, nasty, and disrespectful. That wasn't the case. When you boil it all down, they were a couple who wanted a cake, to celebrate their eternal bond. They were denied that because they both have the same genitalia. People need to seriously grow up.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2015 9:46 PM

2015-04-27T21:46:00-04:00

Mentally Raped? Dear Lord... I just cant take people seriously anymore.

Everyone is so delicate and such a victim.

And heaven forbid you speak up anymore...you quickly get labelled a bigot or homophobe.

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Apr 27 at 2015 10:50 PM

2015-04-27T22:50:29-04:00

America has lost its moral compass and collective mind. It saddens me greatly to see what is happening to our once proud nation that used to say, "In God We Trust." Now it is "In God We Trusted." ... And it shows! The rest of the world which respected America for its virtues can't believe how ignorant and complacent we've become... If things don't change soon, I fear for the future of this nation.

Response by SPC Michael Frugoli made Apr 27 at 2015 11:44 PM

2015-04-27T23:44:31-04:00

I'm not religious but I believe in respecting their position. Is it fair for the couple? No. But is it fair for the people who have beliefs about gay marriage and how their religion feels about it. No. It's already been said no one wins here. Looks like a slippery slop from here on out. Sad really.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2015 2:42 AM

2015-04-28T02:42:45-04:00

We as individuals have the choice to be gay or straight. Just as family owned businesses have the right to choose to, or not to cater a gay or straight requests for business. Honestly it's their loss in business and those who choose to be offended by their decision. However, they should not be monetarily penalized for something that is their right to choose.

Response by CPO Sam Gilliland made Apr 28 at 2015 8:19 AM

2015-04-28T08:19:49-04:00

This reminds me of when Chic-fil-a's CEO was under scrutiny for his beliefs against same sex marriage. He may not believe is same sex marriage...but he will sure sell them chicken! Part of being an American is having the right to freedom of Religion. God is the only one who can judge the gay couple. Which sin is worse...gay marriage or coveting the couple by humiliating them? Sin is sin...they are the same. When the time comes we will all be judged INDIVIDUALLY. Before you try to remove the speck from your brothers eye, you must first remove the log from your own. If it would of been a Muslim couple they refused...the business would have been burned to the ground instead of having to pay.

Response by SPC Christian Ziegler made Apr 28 at 2015 10:42 AM

2015-04-28T10:42:30-04:00

Too damn much PC crap, if people want to be gay or lesbian by all rights be so. But that is no reason to throw it in peoples faces and then sue. Now I understand its out in public but its a private business they should have the right to refuse to serve anyone they please, hell I see it here on business door's all the time.
Yes and we have fought for peoples right and freedoms, that is true. But that right stop's once you enter my property then all rights are mine, and if you don't like it leave and that's how I see it. A private business should be much the same way once your on there property.

Response by SSG Daniel Miller made Apr 28 at 2015 12:53 PM

2015-04-28T12:53:05-04:00

This is only as discriminatory as refusing service to a couple on the sole grounds of them being black. Business owners should always reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for whatever reasons they may have, but be ready to pay for it. I don't think the business should be fined, and we are setting a dangerous precedent, but maybe you shouldn't own a business if you're not willing to serve people who want to patronize that business.

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made Apr 28 at 2015 10:14 PM

2015-04-28T22:14:33-04:00

This is a civil case founded on English Common and Tort laws. I'd expect it to be appealed. Where's the religious persecution though? It looks at least on face value another business isn't going to play nice, make a greenback, and reject tolerance on religious principals.

It will be very interesting to see how this "persecution" boondoggle plays out later this year. The Supreme Court by all reports SEEMS to be inclined to support same sex marriages on the national level and the effects which will resonate on civil rights.

According to Bloomberg, 8 out of 10 entrepreneurs who start businesses fail within the first 18 months. A new metric is refuse same-sex business services (unless in hegemonic Indiana). Personally, if I were an entrepreneur I'd love to not serve fundamentalist Christians or fundamentalist Muslims.

Response by SFC Jeff L. made May 15 at 2015 10:25 AM

2015-05-15T10:25:35-04:00

The issue goes way beyond "equal rights." Many groups, including homosexuals, aren't looking for equal rights. They want to be more than equal. To have their cake and eat it too, if you'll pardon the expression. And it isn't about equal protection under the law, because the bakery owners aren't being protected from frivolous lawsuits. The bottom line is that the government should not have the authority to force a private citizen to sell something if they don't want to (whatever the reason), nor should he be forced to buy something against his will. It isn't as if this bakery is the only option for the loving couple. Gays have taken to targeting business owners/businesses with Christian principles, and using the courts to establish precedent to compell acceptance of their agenda.

There is no longer a "right to refuse service" for any business owner. If they aren't forced by judicial ruling, then they will be the victim of militant gays and sympathizers who are known to threaten violence and destruction.

Response by SA Harold Hansmann made May 20 at 2015 8:53 AM

2015-05-20T08:53:11-04:00

This is as dumb as the chick at McDonald's with the hot coffee.
Take your business elsewhere.
Simple solution.
Ain't got nothing against gay marriage, to each his own, but trying to get a lawsuit for something that petty. Really?
Sounds like someone needs to get over themselves.
Of course, then again, the new American dream, isn't about acquiring land, it's about getting rich quick by lawsuit.

Response by SGT David T. made May 20 at 2015 9:08 AM

2015-05-20T09:08:38-04:00

I have given this a bit of thought and I came to the realization that baking a cake is not condoning or endorsing the practice. They operate a for profit business and the way the laws are now they are prohibited from discriminating against someone based on sexual orientation in the same way they are prohibited from discriminating based on race religion or creed. At the end of the day they aren't commiting a sin by making a cake. They are not being asked to perform the ceremony just to simply make a cake. No more no less.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2023 2:20 PM

2023-07-11T14:20:10-04:00

Forget making a same-sex wedding cake. Rather, let's celebrate divorces by building "Happy Divorce," "Happy Re-Marriage," and "Happy Adultery" cakes!

Response by MSG Billy Brumfield made Jul 11 at 2023 2:41 PM

2023-07-11T14:41:01-04:00

I'm sure they suffered a myriad of mental injuries. After all, they had to go to dozens of different bakeries before they found one that wouldn't bake their cake.