One of your soldiers fails out of PME. What actions do you take as a leader?

2016-11-02T02:41:41-04:00

I am just throwing this out as a vignette. I am curious what kinds of things leaders could do, would do, and should do. At what phase in their career does this become a career ender (BLC, ALC?) [Other branch equivalent professional military education as well]

Again, not an issue for me..just a conversational topic.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2016 3:59 AM

2016-11-02T03:59:35-04:00

Mentor them regardless of anything.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Nov 2 at 2016 6:58 AM

2016-11-02T06:58:55-04:00

Look at it like you would any other issue.

YOU'RE the leader. First ask yourself:

1) "Did I set them up for failure?" as in: Did I send someone who wasn't ready? Did I not give them the tools needed to accomplish the course? Did I know they were going to fail in advance? In essence, was this a "Failure to supervise" issue as opposed to a failure on their part (learning experience).

2) "Were there external situations that created the situation?" This is more complex than above, as it could be financial, morale based, or anything in between. Investigate and walk through the issue with the troop.

Based on the above, the type of "counselling" can be dramatically different. It can go from "I'm sorry" to "What the hell happened?"

Response by SSG G Smith made Nov 2 at 2016 7:16 AM

2016-11-02T07:16:31-04:00

Put yourself in their shoes and then ask yourself where the disconnect is/was. If you did all you coils do and they fail themselves you know the outcome, but like was said if you can be blaimed for the failure then you haven't finished your job.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2016 8:49 AM

2016-11-02T08:49:32-04:00

I think a related and just as important question is, why is PME/NCOES so easy failure's perceived to be career ending? NCOES should be sufficiently challenging that an attrition rate's to be expected and there's no shame to make another attempt. My experience with NCOES is that if you learned much, you shouldn't have been there. As it is, if you feel graduating our PME courses is an accomplishment, you're mistaken, and no one's impressed because completion's a given.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2016 8:57 AM

2016-11-02T08:57:24-04:00

I was informed that I could not negatively reflect on their NCOER because I had not counseled them to pass the mandatory MOS required course... mind blown

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Nov 2 at 2016 9:06 AM

2016-11-02T09:06:32-04:00

Goodbye! Sorry pal but that's a negative status indicator. No reenlistment.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Nov 2 at 2016 9:15 AM

2016-11-02T09:15:18-04:00

You know what I think is kinda funny. I read through this thread and most of the comments were along the same lines: "Why did they fail?" Mentor Them." "Look at the circumstances..." Their career isn't over." "Help them out." How many people would say the same thing about a weight failure, or a failed fitness test. Anytime that subject comes up its always, "Put them out!" "Deny Benefits." "Run them till they puke." It just demonstrates the terrible stigma that military people attach to weight problems. Arguably, good leadership skills are WAY more important than perfect fitness, but you would never know it looking at this scenario. Why loathe and punish a soldier for fitness problems, say he/she doesn't care, isn't professional, isn't worthy of the uniform --and then comfort and mentor a PME failure? Are standards not standards period? Should they not receive the same treatment? Arguably it is way more expensive to the army to fail a PME course --that is TDY money wasted, along with man-hours.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Nov 2 at 2016 9:27 AM

2016-11-02T09:27:13-04:00

this is a great thread, super relevant issue here!

Response by MGySgt James Forward made Nov 2 at 2016 10:16 AM

2016-11-02T10:16:13-04:00

I am not going to say depends. From a purely USMC point of view. The fork has been inserted; for an NCO, SNCO, or Officer your EAS is now in stone. No more reenlistment, no more promotion's, you are done. Mandatory negative comment on Fitness Report is identified as an "Adverse Fitness Report". I would say someone has a zero point zero probability of recovering from this event. Only path to redemption would be if you were dropped due to a medical issue. If that was the case you will be allowed to attend the complete course over once you are medically cleared. This is a one and done deal for us. Semper Fi.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2016 10:32 AM

2016-11-02T10:32:46-04:00

The way the Army is going today. We want to keep only the very best. If you failed your PME there are plenty of other folks that will be able to pass and to keep the ball running.

I will not dismiss the Soldiers. I would continue to mentor, coach and teach.

I will advice you to never put your career were someone else will make a decision on it. Plain and simple!!

Response by SFC Mark Bailey made Nov 2 at 2016 11:32 AM

2016-11-02T11:32:01-04:00

My first thought was, "Why on Earth were they sent there without their Leadership knowing what they were capable of?"

Yes, my second thought was of a Spec-4 heading off to PLDC as a last minute addition to the Battalion OML.

...but my current thought was all of the ANCOC candidates facing their first "Re-Test" after failing Land Navigation due to either time or that damned swamp the compass headings took them through.

Speaking as someone that my Leadership made sure was ready... someone who fought tooth and nail for everything thrown at me... and someone who graduated top 10% of each class... you sometimes get what you deserve and the US Military is all the better for it afterwards....

But I'm not sure it should be "career-ending" because it is after all a School.... where some excel, some coast by, and some learn to be better.... and if they do graduate eventually we are still all the better for it.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2016 11:40 AM

2016-11-02T11:40:53-04:00

As a leader, understanding why the SM failed out regardless of what PME, PT Test or Weapons Q. This would be the first step to helping the SM. Everyone has a bad day, I sure do. Retraining and teaching the SM is being a leader. I do this a lot with my commo section. Talking to them as a group and one on one. A leaders responsibility to me is caring about the SM, not because the Army say I need to because I'm In a leadership position, but actually care. You can only do so much for a SM, I do understand that. And at some point its time to send them on there way. But if your not giving a 100% to the SM, well your wrong.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2016 11:54 AM

2016-11-02T11:54:21-04:00

It depends on the circumstances.

Response by SFC Michael Lydon made Nov 2 at 2016 1:15 PM

2016-11-02T13:15:17-04:00

I am currently at MP ALC I saw many soldier get sent home for not meeting Height Wright and security clearances.
This is unit level responsibilities and the soldiers failed because their units failed.. proper preparation 30-60-90 look at all requirements check the block on each one. Ensure your soldiers are prepared to complete the course not a maybe or I think I can...

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2016 1:19 PM

2016-11-02T13:19:25-04:00

I once had an E5 fail BLC 7 times! The Soldier was counseled and I personally worked with him on his weak areas but every time he went he failed tests due to concentration issues. He said he just didn't test well but when I went over the topics with him he was able to answer them. He was a good guy and a decent Soldier but I submitted him for a reduction board after the 3rd failure. But the BN denied it and said keep on sending him until he passes.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2016 9:14 PM

2016-11-02T21:14:34-04:00

I'm certain some of the leadership will have to toe-the-line to explain what happened. But, with a shrinking force, failing PME could mean career ender.

Now there are ways to ensure training NCOs at Company or Higher levels in Regular Army and Reserve to ensure no Soldier gets sent back for failing PME.
As an XO, I was fortunate enough to have been a part of a Company that made it a point to go beyond "sponsorship". They partnered new Soldier based on MOS/Rank with a mentor. Before attending PME, the Soldier would work with a recent graduate of that PME course to share and discuss what to expect when they get there. I remember all the accolades received while attending graduation ceremonies from the 88K or 88L instructors on FT Eustis.
No failed PME during my three years on station.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Nov 3 at 2016 10:11 AM

2016-11-03T10:11:33-04:00

Its not really in the leader's hands anymore...unless the regs have changed (let up) since i left, NCOES failure is a trigger for BAR and initiation of seperation.
Can those be overcome? perhaps,,, but it better be due to some tragedy beyond the SM's ability to deal with, ... daughter was kidnaped, husband in an accident and limited time to live....something horrible like that.

Academically fail just because its "hard", administratively released for negitive behaviour or other reasons...
Sure, Id still find out why first..find out what happened, but it's not likley to change the direction of the action.

Leaders that are afraid to say" this life is not for you, you're just not good enough" are a problem in of itself and I commonly found those leaders were letting others slide by, because they them self were less than stellar and sliding by

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Nov 4 at 2016 6:28 PM

2016-11-04T18:28:53-04:00

I THINK IF YOU ARE GOING TO GET PROMTED YOU SHOULD HAVE EDUCATION TO BACK IT UP.
I HAD TO PASS MY MOS TEST WHICH IS GONE NOW AND THEN MY SQT TEST AND NOW I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU DO NOW. I MYSELF TOOK AS MANY SCHOOLS AS I COULD TO BETTER MYSELF AND BEABLE TO TRAIN MY SOLDIERS IN THE WAY THEY COULD LEARN.
SSG MARK FRANZEN

Response by 1SG David Carrier made Nov 9 at 2016 4:42 AM

2016-11-09T04:42:54-05:00

"It's a reflection of your leadership!"
"Teach, Train, and Coach..."

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2016 7:39 PM

2016-11-09T19:39:43-05:00

PME can only be failed by height and weight or apft failure.

Response by 1SG David Carrier made Nov 24 at 2016 2:12 PM

2016-11-24T14:12:39-05:00

Every leader must "Teach, Train and Coach" his subordinates through leading by example, proper counselling and education.
Having a bad day don't make a soldier get fat, it's constant leadership that help prevent a soldier from getting fat. Providing that same soldier the resources to lose the weight and following up with a persistent weigh-in requirement for those behind the curve in the weight department. The leader cannot lose the weight but he can show enough concern to the SM to encourage and enable him/her to accomplish the weight loss. A Bar to Reenlistment can be overcome and should be the concern of the chain of command from the team/squad leader, platoon sergeant and 1SG of the Company (and the CSM). The Mess Sergeant is a key individual in the role of weight loss, often overlooked but he/she has been trained and educated in nutrition the next person involved in this process is the "Master Fitness Trainer" also trained in nutrition with the additional training in personal fitness.
This is just a few moments in the daily mission of the leader in the Military (Army in my case...)