Now that only one attempt is allowed for weapons qual, how do we get units to train to standard?

2019-06-25T19:35:49-04:00

This article covers several points: https://primaryandsecondary.com/but-thats-the-only-chance-we-get-to-shoot-why-are-you-taking-it-from-us-humility-is-the-new-expertise/?fbclid=IwAR3Ps4oGUsp0aaWmzdD7nMNHqfK1wOOMPkLTW-laaFcvowUnuZ-RqCPtJKg

“But that’s the only chance we get to shoot? Why are you taking it from us?”: Humility is the New...

Note: This reflects the views of the writer and he encourages readers to go through the article, read the whole thing, and think of it from the writer’s perspective, rather than their own point of view. However he is fully prepared to defend his statements against the masses of naysayers as seen below: In 2017,... read more »

Response by CW5 Jack Cardwell made Jun 25 at 2019 7:41 PM

2019-06-25T19:41:37-04:00

Course of fire changing also. Going yo get tough it seems.

Response by SPC Gary Welch made Jun 25 at 2019 8:22 PM

2019-06-25T20:22:26-04:00

I can see this working for support units but combat arms ecspecially infantry needs to fire for qualification more then once a year

Response by SFC Stephen P. made Jun 25 at 2019 9:42 PM

2019-06-25T21:42:50-04:00

The standard is qualification. The highlighted section states that multiple attempts are not authorized to "increase", but does allow for multiple attempts to qualify.

This just means that leaders will actually have to train their troops rather than just supply copious amounts of ammo if they want good scores.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 26 at 2019 12:19 PM

2019-06-26T12:19:42-04:00

I interpret that as a firer can fire more than once to qualify. After qualification, SM is done firing.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Jun 26 at 2019 1:24 PM

2019-06-26T13:24:59-04:00

Place the additional duty status of "Marksmanship Coordinator" on one or more of your best shots and if you already have one, ask him or her just what in the hell are they doing to insure 100% participation and qualification.

Don't say that it can't be done either because that was my job from Sept. 1985 to June 2002. We attained 100% participation and qualification for that time period and it continues to this day. There are so many training aids available and some you can make.

I would schedule classes during the months leading up to weapons qual and would make it mandatory for each section to attend including the medics and payroll clerks, typists and other assorted non combat MOS's. Because when it comes right down to it we are all riflemen and women in any branch of the service.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2019 4:42 PM

2019-06-27T16:42:32-04:00

It's only one and done if you meet the standard, even the absolute minimum. That's what that reg means. If you bolo, you fire again.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 28 at 2019 10:12 AM

2019-06-28T10:12:16-04:00

I've always found it odd that the Army expects soldiers to qualify with a weapon that they only get to fire once a year and that's when they are trying to qualify. And if you fail to qualify you get treated like a dirtbag.

It's like forcing a team to play for a championship without allowing them to practice.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2019 4:09 PM

2019-07-02T16:09:45-04:00

Looks to me like it’s saying if you fail to qualify, then go back within 4 months, shoot again and qualify, the highest qualification you can have is just “qualified,” no matter how well you shoot (expert, etc).

Response by SPC Nicholas Wood made Jul 2 at 2019 4:50 PM

2019-07-02T16:50:21-04:00

Is this a real question? All it says is 1 attempt to qualify. Just have more live fire before the qual range... Dont have to be a genius to figure this out.

Response by SPC James Anderson made Jul 2 at 2019 5:25 PM

2019-07-02T17:25:11-04:00

This was one of my biggest bitches in the military. Our focus was PT,PT,PT!!!!!! You workout ever day, if want to excel you would do it twice a day, and weekend were encouraged. People were given passes for 290-300 scores, PT was worth 50 promotion points. Now turn the page to weapon qualification. No time at all spent ever outside of range day. You were not encouraged to take your weapon out of the arms room and do dry fire exercises, no practice days on the range, absolutely nothing, no passes were given for expert qualifications, nothing at all. Expert was worth 50 promotion points. we had 10 times the number of 290-300 pt scores then we did Expert qualifiers, but nobody gave a shit if you could shoot. Shooting is as perishable as PT, I cannot fathom the Army's difference in outlook between these parts of the job. Oh well rounds cost money, sweat is free.

Response by SFC Bill Kurtz made Jul 2 at 2019 6:07 PM

2019-07-02T18:07:05-04:00

How to train to standard? The same way you get to Carnegie Hall. Practice, practice, practice. Get range time and send the troops to shoot not for record. Those Daniel Boone’s that never seem to need practice cando the once a year schtick. I was in NATO twice and EAC units several times. I’m lucky I remembered which end the bullet came out!

Response by SPC John Decker made Jul 3 at 2019 9:32 AM

2019-07-03T09:32:50-04:00

Do unit commanders have the authority to schedule live-fire exercises not connected to qualifications? That would be the fix. Or the possibility of personally being able to schedule range time during off-duty time.

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Jul 3 at 2019 9:44 AM

2019-07-03T09:44:58-04:00

I first came in back in the 70s. We did the zero range & then weapons qualification. Usually back to back with nobody really taking the time out to correct people who couldn't shoot. Then we started doing pre-range training which helped. Later we have various simulators that helped many people out. However, we know simulators aren't the same. Given the time, logistics, & amount of personnel on less bases, it would be very hard to do a twice a year live weapons training for all units. It is better to come up with better simulators for the support people to train on.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Jul 3 at 2019 11:03 AM

2019-07-03T11:03:23-04:00

First lets clear up the one chance thing. You have two chances at qualification if you bolo the first time you get retrain and sent back to qualification if you bolo again then you will find people unhappy. You can attempt to qualify extra times over a 4 month Period but will only receive a qualify not a badge. If this is not happening then it is a internal unit training issue. Read the rest of 3-21 above.
Now on to opinion it is the same with any thing in the Military It is up to you to put in the effort to stay proficient there are many ways to do this some are expensive some are not. Even something as simple as airsoft guns, paint ball guns, pellet guns can be used BB guns are inaccurate at best. a 22cal. plinker can be bought for $100. and there is a range or shooting area some where just outside most towns. JMTC

Response by SPC Gary Welch made Jul 13 at 2019 6:32 PM

2019-07-13T18:32:58-04:00

I've been going back and forth on this subject here and I just can't comprehend this because when I was active duty from 89-97 in an infantry unit as an 11m in a couple 1/5 cav 1st cav we were constantly going to ntc 2 sometimes three times a year and we would have to qualify gunnery mounted and dismounted before we went so we would qualify at least two times a year so when we went to the range those of us that we're expert would help the guys that weren't

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jul 13 at 2019 7:29 PM

2019-07-13T19:29:49-04:00

Couple things:
- unit’s will need MACOM sourcing for training ammunition beyond zero and qualification tables to actually learn to shoot ahead of time. It has to be done frequently enough the skill doesn’t perish. Right now, qual is your training. We need to train, then qual.
- company and Battalions need to fence white space for squad and platoon led marksmanship. From an efficiency stand point Companies should run ranges for a Battalion. Problem is responsibility is diffused.
- need to come off the STRAC Byzantine annual same as last year forecast system.
- NCOs will need to lead the way with PMI. Actual PMI. Units need to work small arms master gunners. Use the hell out of the Engagement Skills Trainer at the Squad/Section level. It allows to adjust steady hold, sight picture, trigger squeeze, and breathing issues in real time on the screen where the firer can see what their doing or not doing. Unlimited ammo. Rinse lather repeat. Train platoon and squad NCOs to run it. Used the hell out of it in Germany.
- the Army needs more ranges and run them 24-7. As a former 3 and XO, range availability is second bottleneck after ammo. Google theory of constraints. Subordinate the system to the bottleneck to optimize it. Instead of what we do now and make units at Battalion fight amongst themselves like a underground homeless fight club for ranges. Ranges should be staffed and sourced to run soldiers through training until they leave trained.
- need supplemental funding for DPTMS to source range employees for OT and additional days.
- Need big Army to work environmental battles and permits for additional firing, land use, noise complaints (which should universally be answered with go F yourself), metal contamination, endangered species etc.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jul 13 at 2019 7:30 PM

2019-07-13T19:30:23-04:00

Response by SGT Andrew Navarro made Jul 15 at 2019 3:12 PM

2019-07-15T15:12:12-04:00

Don't confuse qualification with training. Qualification should be the culmination of weapons training, so multiple attempts should not (if everyone has done their part in training) be necessary.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2019 8:37 PM

2019-07-16T20:37:23-04:00

Ok that is not what the Regulation states. They can not "increase their qualification rating." A Non- qualifying score is NOT a qualification rating. You have no rating.

Response by SSG Lloyd Becker BSBA-HCM, MBA made Sep 6 at 2019 1:26 AM

2019-09-06T01:26:13-04:00

Units not trained to standard, can be flunked in training qualification. This will put units back on the firing ranges for at least 2 weeks. I was an evaluator for an ARTEP. They used to be called ARTEPs and before that ORTT. Have no idea what they are called now.