No veh's or indirect SPT-What’s the smallest size modern day infantry element would it take to defeat Napoléon’s Grand Armée at its height?

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 14 May 2016 00:09:55 -0400

At it's height, the Grand Armée numbered (depending on the historian) 550,000 - 800,000 personnel. I will readily confess my ignorance on the specifics of the MTOE of a Infantry Company but I'm guessing less than 200 personnel
Rifleman x 210 rds w/ 2 frags
M240's x ___ Basic combat load
M249 x 900 RNDS and an M9 with 45 Rnds?
Mortars?

I think they're gonna fall short several hundred thousand. Even after a resupply, the and the first ... I'll be generous 200,000 fall ... then what?

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made May 14 at 2016 12:12 AM

CSM Charles Hayden — Sat, 14 May 2016 00:12:36 -0400

When is the last time time you observed an Infantry Company's "Mad Minute", with all weapons firing? Any more questions?

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2016 12:27 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 14 May 2016 00:27:19 -0400

MSG Private RallyPoint Member The first Grande Armée consisted of six corps under the command of Napoleon's marshals and senior generals. The army grew in size as Napoleon's might spread across Europe. It reached its maximum size of 554.000 men at the start of the invasion of Russia in 1812. A battalion would probably be able to win as long as ammunition was not an issue. With no vehicles, the battalion would need to be on the high ground, and could not move from their ammo dump. They could not carry enough ammo to take the fight to the enemy.

Response by Maj John Bell made May 14 at 2016 12:34 AM

Maj John Bell — Sat, 14 May 2016 00:34:27 -0400

One Marine with a rifle and full magazine pouches, a K-Bar and an e-tool. No we do not have a poor self-image problem.

Real answer - Marines fight as combined arms team. Quantico used to do the Mad Minute every year. It was a night time live fire exercise open to ticketed public viewing. A heavily reinforced Rifle Company fired the final protective fires. Air Support, artillery and mortar fires were simulated with pre-placed explosives and 55 Gallon Drum FuGas bombs. From start to finish it was one minute.

I think you cannot discount the psychological effect on the Grand Armee of seeing something that ferocious for the first time. The Grand Armee was in the neighborhood of 680,000 men. Probably not all were combatants. My guess is that a MEF (One Division, One Wing, and One Force Service Support Group)would wrap things up in very, very short order. One MEB could also probably have done it if they traded terrain for time.

Response by SPC David S. made May 14 at 2016 1:41 AM

SPC David S. — Sat, 14 May 2016 01:41:15 -0400

Give me a brigade of 5 BN's (4,000 troops) and a mess of .50 cal's its over before it starts. The 4 and 8 pounder's that Napoleon used had a max range of 1200 and 1500 meters respectively. The modern .50 cal tops out at a little over 2400 meters. So once the artillery is taking out it will be a slaughter - M-16's with 203's along with the .50's and Waterloo comes early. These tactics became obsolete with the advent of fast loading rifled musket. This lead to trench warfare at the end of the Civil War and into WWI which lead us to Armour.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made May 14 at 2016 1:49 AM

Capt Seid Waddell — Sat, 14 May 2016 01:49:27 -0400

Would obsolete weaponry be permitted?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT5jo7aZzTw

May 25, 1953; 280 mm Canon Fires Nuclear Weapon

This is the first test of a nuclear artillery shell (Grable for "gun") - the 280 mm AFAP (artillery fired atomic projectile). The shot was an artillery deliv...

Response by SSG Leo Bell made May 14 at 2016 5:53 AM

SSG Leo Bell — Sat, 14 May 2016 05:53:35 -0400

That would be a good question, because how many men did Napoléon have? What type of weapons do they have, and what type will we have? I would say a company of SEAL's, or Delta, a company of Ranger's. You can just send the 82nd or the 101st battalions there and we should be able to win the fight.

Response by LCpl Michael Harrell made May 14 at 2016 5:00 PM

LCpl Michael Harrell — Sat, 14 May 2016 17:00:50 -0400

Outfitted with modern equipment under today's deployment requirements
1-2 company's maybe less
With all the platoon support carried and on coms we could maybe do it with 1 but 2 would do the job for sure

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made May 14 at 2016 5:11 PM

MAJ Keira Brennan — Sat, 14 May 2016 17:11:03 -0400

What a cool question!

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 10:11 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 May 2016 10:11:01 -0400

Since we have an Army of One..I will say One

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 11:54 AM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 May 2016 11:54:29 -0400

I would say location, location, location are we the attacking or defending force? If we could dig in like the Spartans at the hot gate I'd say our odds would be better.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 8:47 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 May 2016 08:47:56 -0400

I say a Company with weapons attachments would do the job. Given enough ammo and food.

Response by CPT James Nielsen made May 17 at 2016 9:10 AM

CPT James Nielsen — Tue, 17 May 2016 09:10:39 -0400

I am surprised this discussion has even come up. If we were facing Napoleons army today his equipment would be far better than he had and the command structure would be different as well as ours. With equal weaponry and leadership capabilities the question would be a study of tactics and strategies

Response by LTC Raymond Millen made May 17 at 2016 11:37 AM

LTC Raymond Millen — Tue, 17 May 2016 11:37:12 -0400

A light infantry company is about 115, counting all the attachments for combat. I breakdown the numbers by position, weapons, and equipment in my book, Command Legacy, if interested.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 6:25 PM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 May 2016 18:25:20 -0400

It would only take 1 Infantryman with a cancelled 4 day pass, a 240, hopped up on caffeine and nicotine accompanied by a level of hatred and disdain for his fellow man that would marvel any Clint Eastwood character!...oh and his trusty bayonet!

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made May 17 at 2016 9:36 PM

SPC Byron Skinner — Tue, 17 May 2016 21:36:54 -0400

Sp4 Byron Skinner. I don't see the relevancy of this question to anything. Looking at the inventory of equipment its obvious the answer is rigged. A modern Infantry Company would have in its TO&E at least five radios. Game over.

Response by PFC Scott Mitchell made May 18 at 2016 7:17 AM

PFC Scott Mitchell — Wed, 18 May 2016 07:17:57 -0400

A number of items have been brought up but I think I can sum it all up in one post. Location: are we defending with built in fortifications like trenches and concertina wire. Hell, even just concertina wire and sandbags. Weaponry: allowing only direct fire, some seem to have been forgotten. We have M249, M240, M2, M16, grenades not just frag but incendiary and others, pistols, and something I didn't notice anyone mentioning, LAW rockets, TOW, Dragon and whatever has come since (I left service in 1994), plus I'm blanking on the name but the automatic belt fed grenade launcher. People have said the barrels will be glowing, but most systems they're designed for quick-change. Then there's simply the human factor of fear of the unknown and watching their buddies turned into goo from something they've never seen. And from distances they can't even imagine. No matter how large the army, many if not most would rout. I would think a brigade, in fixed positions could easily win with the enemy having trouble even getting close enough to be effective. Oh, and their cavalry, once fire goes off, the horses are smarter than humans and would run. Plus a last item I just thought of, a .50cal sniper rifle. When their lead elements are getting picked off at ranges of up to a mile, leaders aren't going to be very effective either. heheh

Response by LTC Eric Coger made May 18 at 2016 9:30 AM

LTC Eric Coger — Wed, 18 May 2016 09:30:49 -0400

Allow organic indirect. Napoleon had cannons, give us an organic Light Infantry Battalion with Mortars and one battery of 105mm Towed and we could do it if the terrain and IPB was favorable. That many troops 500,000+ could overwhelm a technologically superior force quite easily. Rourke's Drift, Zulu war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rorke's_Drift Just over 150 British and colonial troops successfully defended the garrison against an intense assault by 3,000 to 4,000 Zulu warriors. This was in the defense mind you, and if the Zulu's had continued with a thrid wave, they would have overwhelmed the Brits. Keep in mind that the rifling of Napoleon's troops allowed the best to engage in excess of 200 yards, especially in massed fires.

Battle of Rorke's Drift - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Battle of Rorke's Drift, also known as the Defence of Rorke's Drift, was a battle in the Anglo-Zulu War. The defence of the mission station of Rorke's Drift, under the command of Lieutenant John Chard of the Royal Engineers and Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead, immediately followed the British Army's defeat at the Battle of Isandlwana on 22 January 1879, and continued into the following day, 23 January.

Response by Nicholas Efstathiou made May 20 at 2016 6:32 PM

Nicholas Efstathiou — Fri, 20 May 2016 18:32:14 -0400

I think we'd also have to take into consideration the morale factor here. The significant difference in the accuracy range of the M16A4 in comparison to the standard infantry rifle of the French Republic/Empire would be a terror. Not to mention just the sound of a 240 opening up. The slaughter of the front ranks, plus the ability of anyone who qualified as expert to put rounds on officer targets would create a rout. Just my opinion, Master Sergeant. :)