No indictment for NY Cop choke hold death. Right call? More riots?

SSG Robert Burns — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 14:47:23 -0500

Will we see the National Guard deployed in NY City now?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/justice/new-york-grand-jury-chokehold/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Protests after N.Y. cop not indicted in chokehold death; feds reviewing case

Protesters poured onto the streets of New York late Wednesday, upset over a grand jury's decision not to indict a police officer in the death of Eric Garner.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Dec 3 at 2014 2:57 PM

CPT Zachary Brooks — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 14:57:42 -0500

I think this is the wrong call. This one people should be protesting about, but again, no riots.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Dec 3 at 2014 2:58 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 14:58:23 -0500

NY cops don't mess around. Anyone trying to burn up their town is going to find themselves in a world of hurt. Trust me....I watch "Blue Bloods" on tv.

Response by SSG Jason Cherry made Dec 3 at 2014 3:09 PM

SSG Jason Cherry — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 15:09:41 -0500

This is definitely a situation in which excessive force was applied. Not only was it wrong on the part of the officer who actually did it, but there were so many other people present who should have stopped it. I think that punishment should be meted out, and to everyone involved, not only to Mr. Pantaleo.

Riots? I hope they don't happen. It will just overwhelm this man's death and become about rioting, and not whether this officer did the right thing or not. The tragedy will become the rioting and destruction, and no longer about his death.

Protests I think should definitely happen. I hope they happen. I want them to happen. There are a lot of police officers who think their word is law and will use whatever force necessary, particularly when it is unwarranted, to get their way. We need to get trust back between cops and communities. When these things happen and people walk away, it just widens the gap.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 3:45 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 15:45:13 -0500

This was the wrong call and is definitely a case of the officer going to far. Although I do not believe the officer meant to kill him. That being said the suspect should never be as abrasive and belligerent as this man was. Okay so you have been wronged in your mind and you don't like the police and are pissed. At least cooperate, obey the commands and don't give reason to suspect you will be combative. And maybe these incidents will be averted.

I don't like in the report the idea that this incident and Furguson are similar. Yes both men where suspected of committing a crime but this gentlemen did not assault any one and did not attack the officer with the intent of inflicting harm. Two completely different mind sets.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Dec 3 at 2014 3:48 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 15:48:00 -0500

Here is another good thread going on about this issue.

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/is-a-second-ferguson-coming-in-nyc-indictment-coming-soon-for-nyc-chokehold-death

Is a second Ferguson coming in NYC? Indictment coming soon for NYC chokehold death | RallyPoint

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/12/3/new-york-preparesforunrestasgrandjurymullschokeholddeath.html Are we going to see a second round of protests and violence?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 3:49 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 15:49:35 -0500

Wrong because the more I watch the video the more angry I become. When the guy is there dying then it seemed like it was time to consider how rough you need to be. For all the good cops and they are overwhelmingly good, this is not a how to video. In fact, this very medium of videos may have pushed the envelope of credulity.

Response by SGT Steve Vincent made Dec 3 at 2014 4:15 PM

SGT Steve Vincent — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 16:15:03 -0500

Since there is no "other" button, I am abstaining from voting on this. I am going to contemplate my response during my ride home, and then I will write it down and post it at some point this evening. Gonna take some noodling...

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Dec 3 at 2014 4:20 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 16:20:09 -0500

I am curious to hear the rational of the Grand Jury. While I don't think this is a murder case, I do think that if you use a procedure that is forbidden by policy, then you are being negligent.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Dec 3 at 2014 4:33 PM

SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 16:33:07 -0500

SSG Robert Burns Having not seen the evidence, I cannot say as to the reason or reasons the Grand Jury chose not to indict. I will say that, sadly, when people fight with anyone including the police, bad things may, can, and will sometimes happen.

I must believe the evidence does not exist which would lead the persons or this Grand Jury to believe the officer involved violated the law, depicted intent, or acted in bad faith.

I know others disagree and I respect that right, but at some point we have to have faith that the justice system in our country works as it should and I hope it would if I were the deceased or the law enforcement officer in this and other situations.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Dec 3 at 2014 4:48 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 16:48:38 -0500

I did not see the evidence, those that did, did not find cause to bring charges.

The one thing from all these cases, I am so thankful I am not a cop.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 7:12 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 19:12:31 -0500

I didn't see the evidence, but people thought that there wasn't enough of it to bring to trial.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 7:58 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 19:58:00 -0500

In spite of the "video" I've always said the cop was put in a no-win situation. You (the cop) are making an arrest - the arrestee resists - you got a choice: you let the arrestee go free or you bring them down. What I saw in the "video" was someone who continued to resist up until they passed out. Sometimes people's actions end up on the negative end of the scale. Sadly his family, suffering a loss like this will never find an answer that fully satisfies, no matter how the jury decided. Anyone who has lost a buddy in combat, to a training accident or an incident while in operational status knows the feeling of loss, the constant questions and second-guessing that goes with being a survivor.

No matter which side of the decision tree one is on - one cannot help but feel the deepest sadness for the family and his mother on her loss. No parent should bury their child.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 8:02 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:02:15 -0500

There are two types of choke holds; one stops blood from flowing to the brain and the other deprives you of the flow of oxygen, in which lack of either will cause one to pass out. NYC Cops are forbidden from my understanding of applying "choke" holds.

Seems t here was no injuries around the arties in the neck nor the wind pipe which would have caused unconciousness. Video does not show direct evidence of a choke hold being applied but more like a head lock, which would not bring about unconciousness.

Once again we are faced with 1-what do we think and decide to believe vs 2- what the evidence presented shows.

Either way, a very unfortunate incident and could have been presented.........if.......the law was not being broken. And even so, selling individual cigarrettes should not result in someone losing their life over. Next...Stop resisiting! Do not resist, I don't care how big or small you are....if cop says put hands up or behind your back ....JUST DO IT! When you cause the situation to escalate, the police also become attentive to their own safety (nothing wrong with that).

Right call or Wrong call........it was the call made by the Grand Jury! Instead of only focusing on the cops....let's also focus on the actions of the victim! Let's also ask, was he right or wrong! It's called pecularialry responsibility, meaning the victims actions had eminent responsibility for the events that occured.

Should he had died...NO! Were the officers at fault or wrong...not according to the grand jury. As in the case of Furgeson, MO. No one in the media, talking heads, Black Caucaus, Football players, race baiters, etc.....none will speak of the victims actions that led to the outcome!

Right call, wrong call!!!! The Grand Jury's verdict in both cases were based on something only those present in the courtroom has heard....and that was the evidence presented!

Individual feelings is NOT evidence!

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Dec 3 at 2014 8:17 PM

PO2 Corey Ferretti — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:17:33 -0500

If the choke hold was not an authorized tactic and from the video he was not being combative this could of been solved differently. Although he was 300 lbs and this is easy for me to say sitting back and watching the video. I just know that it is tough being a Police Officer these days because no matter what you do right or wrong it is gone over with a fine tooth comb and it seems an officer is guilty till proven innocent. Witch is wrong.

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Dec 3 at 2014 9:21 PM

Cpl Ray Fernandez — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:21:25 -0500

He broke policy, and his actions directly resulted in the death of a suspect for a minor crime which did not warrant that type of reaction from the police.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 10:53 PM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:53:23 -0500

I just don't know. I've been following the case and I assumed at the least the officer would've gotten indicted. Things seem pretty clear and evident to me but I just don't know. It is so conflicting because I feel for the family and am saddened by the loss but emotions shouldn't intervene with what is actually present. How can I assume something that I know little or nothing of? I wasn't there. No evidence was presented to me. The only thing I can go by is the illegal chokehold. The NYPD commissioner ordered for the retraining of officers in regards to this specific technique. That said something to me. But there's no indictment. Just hope my city stays calm and doesn't resort to full blown chaos to try to make a point.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 8:06 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:06:01 -0500

I think it's the right call because it was a grand jury who made the decision based on the facts and testimony they heard. Regardless of what they choose, it was the right call. Not bringing the incident before a grand jury would have been the wrong call, but that's not what happened. We, as a society, should not complain when the outcome of "due process" is not what we wanted or what we thought it should be.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 8:20 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:20:25 -0500

I really don't know, but I can't second-guess a grand jury. It isn't as if a Prosecutor just didn't proceed with charges. What's the alternative to the grand jury system.

My problem with some of the protesters is that they seem outraged that a black was killed by a non-minority. Are these deaths more meaningful that the many other deaths of blacks that happen every day? What about other minorities? For the families and those directly involved, I get it. But for the others, what are you really mad at? The death of minorities? Or police action that you deem inappropriate, though you really don't know how you would respond in a similar situation, right? You want the protection, but you want to be protected "perfectly". Easier said then done.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 11:49 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 11:49:24 -0500

I heard a person yesterday that kept saying our system is broken we need a new one! I do believe there are many inequalities our country needs to work past but this is a critical moment in our history that could turn out for the worse. We have people demanding the system be changed but to what? Our government may not function properly at times but I don't see a better system that offers the freedoms and checks and balances that ours does. We need to keep an eye on how the change continues to happen over the course of years to come.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Dec 4 at 2014 2:39 PM

CPT Zachary Brooks — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 14:39:32 -0500

This was an interesting update that came out recently. Be sure to note who enacted the tax...

http://www.freedomworks.org/content/nycs-ridiculously-high-cigarette-tax-cant-be-ignored-after-eric-garners-death

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Dec 4 at 2014 2:45 PM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 14:45:01 -0500

After repeated viewing of the video and the repeated assertions from the deceased that he couldn't breathe, I do not believe that the grand jury got this one correct. Would really need to see the testimony from the grand jury to try and figure out how they arrived at their conclusion. I was in full agreement with the Ferguson decision based upon the testimony and evidence released following their decision, but not at all in this case.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Dec 4 at 2014 3:01 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 15:01:25 -0500

Wrong Call. This will go to civil court and the City, County and State are going to settle out of court as always but how much is a Human Life worth?

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 3:26 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 15:26:49 -0500

I heard an NPR report on this incident. The medical examiner officially called Garner's death a homicide, and the grand jury called it justified, even though that choke hold was not allowed.

I don't know ... I think this was the wrong call.

I found an interesting article about this incident:

http://theweek.com/article/index/273041/why-eric-garners-death-should-disturb-everyone

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 3:57 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 15:57:01 -0500

I listened to the President, the Attorney General speak on this incident. And as in both incidents they speak thoroughly and exspensively about the need to rebuild trust and faith in law enforcement and asked for money to do this (federally).

However, not one time did I hear them speak up and inform the nation, that we are a nation of laws, the Police are the body of enforcement, and when the police give you directions...obey the police! That would not have cost anything to say, other than piss of the agitators, rioters and race baiters. I bet the 30 small business owners, city/state law enforcement and local governements would have appreciated it.

So once again, the administration took over media air time not to help bring calm to two greatly disturbing incidents impacting the entire nation, instead, they poured a little more fuel on the fire while trying to make look like they weren't!

Another great opportunity for the President to show leadership, character and integrity and even say "We have two incidents here where citizens failed to follow the instructions of Law Enforcement Officers and they ended tragically, where they could have been prevented had those 2 citizens, "obeyed the Police" and also say, "actions by law enforcement officers need to be looked at as well!" Instead what did he do, he folded his hand and passed the fuel can.

If I were the govenor (ha...that's a joke)...I would put up road blocks and shut down the airports if it took that to let the Attorney General understand, this is a local/State issue; They will be no Federal involvement in my state on either incident. It's our job to fix it, if we don't, the voters can fire us. Why...because the Attorney General is not looking for justice or solutions to move on from this incident.....on the President's orders they want to find a way to put on the blame on the White Police officers involved. No system is perfect, but ours is the best on this planet.
Kudos to the comments made by the Police Chief from Wisconcin

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 6:02 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 18:02:36 -0500

Without having all the information these are subjective responses. Objectivity cannot be attained by us, therefore we can only go by what we see and perceive through the media.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 6:56 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 18:56:45 -0500

My initial response is that we don't know what evidence the grand jury was privy to. But that's ridiculous. Surely they were given access to the video. Wrong call.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 7:55 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 19:55:55 -0500

No, they would take the guns away from the National Guard. It is NYC afterall.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Dec 4 at 2014 8:03 PM

SPC(P) Jay Heenan — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 20:03:30 -0500

This is not a good example of 'good police work'. It is a shame to find out that only supervisors have tasers. This might of been a good time to use a taser instead of 'testing your mandhood'. We have all seen the videos of bad guys running (or driving) away from LEO only to be gang tackled later on. You see 7 dudes pile on top of a suspect who has 'given up', kneeling on every part of the body they can find. Sadly, it was only a matter of time until, to much force was used....

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 8:04 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 20:04:15 -0500

I just watched this video for the first time and here are my thoughs:

1. What I saw in the video was not an officer "choking" an individual. I saw an officer attempting to assist an individual much larger than him to a compliant position on the ground.

2. Once the individual was on the ground it did not appear that anyone had any hands, arms, necks, or anything else around the individual's neck. Had there been a "choke hold" applied, the individual would not have been able to so clearly say "I can't breathe".

3. There is this thing called positional asphyxia. Positional Asphyxia is typically the result of an intense struggle and often involves a person who is handcuffed and lying on their stomach after the struggle. I don't know if civilian LEOs are taught about it. I would imagine they are. When I reclassed to MP, we were taught about it.

4. It was stated that the individual suffered from asthma.

My OPINION is that this individual was not choked. If he had been in a choke hold, he wouldn't have been able to so clearly state that he couldn't breathe. I feel that the individual either fell victim to asthma or positional asphyxia. I don't think that any of the LEOs intentionally killed him nor do I feel that they "choked" him.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 9:09 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 21:09:08 -0500

I believe it was the right call. I believe there was no "choke" hold applied as it was more of a head lock to take the individual down. Now think if you were being held down by a bunch of people what would you say to get them off of you. Possibly I can't breath. I am not saying it was handled totally correctly but we have to take into context why police officers do every day and the different situations they are put into. Very similar to what we go through overseas.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 11:40 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 23:40:52 -0500

I'm not going to answer on the call. I think it's a mistake to second guess the grand jury.

Is there a different standard of justice based on color? Sure. We see it, both here and in Ferguson, where certain people think that they are allowed to break the law, or at least argue/fight with the police, presumably based on race.

And lets not forget that the best way to memorialize a young "victim" of police violence is to steal 50 pairs of Nike shoes from a store and burn it to the ground.

Black lives DO count. Every life counts. But if your life counts so little to YOU that you are willing to risk it solely so you can argue with or punch a police officer, that's YOUR choice. I don't see why I should care about your life more than you do.

Response by SPC Daniel Edwards made Dec 4 at 2014 11:42 PM

SPC Daniel Edwards — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 23:42:12 -0500

From what I see, he is being put in the choke hold wrong. I was taught in combatives that guy puts his bend in the elbow around the throat which allows the bicep and forearm to put pressure on the arteries. It is supposed to be a blood choke. Maybe I am wrong though

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 1:22 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 01:22:26 -0500

bad call on this one. good call on the other two. i think putting the grand jury indictments so close to each other was a mistake. one decision and the riots may have fueled the grand jury to not indict this one as well. this one was clearly an abuse of power. there was no need for the actions of these officers. to include the guy who put the full weight of his knee on the guys head while four other cops were already holding him down. if Tom Selleck were actually the police commissioner of NYPD, this wouldnt go without punishment. but this is not Blue Bloods.

Response by 1LT David Moeglein made Dec 5 at 2014 3:58 AM

1LT David Moeglein — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 03:58:26 -0500

Although the original chokehold was against policy, it is pretty clear that he didn't die from it alone. The fact that he was able to say that he couldn't breath is a case and point he was getting air in his lungs. However, it looks like having a number of people on top of him could have contributed to his death.

Response by PFC Zanie Young made Dec 5 at 2014 9:06 AM

PFC Zanie Young — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:06:34 -0500

I call foul play! There is a reason that the chokehold was forbidden to use to detain suspects! The man wasn't even a threat to the police! Nevermind he was better than 400 pounds, asthmatic and had other health issues. He has a right to defend his innocence. Using the chokehold to a point of killing just to detain a man and then not giving him first aid after stating he can't breathe is just plain murder. I don't blame his family for not wanting an apology from the NYPD! The use of force by police officers has really gotten out of hand, especially when they kill children!

Response by CSM David Heidke made Dec 5 at 2014 9:37 AM

CSM David Heidke — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:37:10 -0500

Indictments are very specific as I recall. I think the problem here is that the victim was not choked, but died from a heart attack related to his rough handling.

Bottom line? He was killed because the use of force was way too high for someone selling cigarettes on the sidewalk.

Riots? no. New York is very different than Ferguson. They are much closer, believe it or not, something about having lower Manhattan turned into a smoking hole.

Protests? yes. Because, well... it's the wrong call, and there probably should be a few protests, but my prediction is that they will be peaceful.

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Dec 5 at 2014 9:38 AM

SPC Christopher Smith — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:38:22 -0500

I hope for no more riots, but that was the wrong call. Anyone who has seen the video knows that this was murder, even if only an accident, it was murder. If I choke someone on the street the same way they did even if only to protect myself against an assualt, I'd be tried by the court.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 9:46 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:46:47 -0500

In this case, based on video evidence, absolutely the wrong call. This case was a dad trying to make ends meet buy selling cigarettes. NY has some of the most freedom restricting laws. A choke hold for suspicion of selling smokes instead of just issuing a citation was definitely excessive force. Killing him, well, the officer should be tried for myrder. This case is the opposite of the Mike Brown incident. Mike brown had already harmed the officer and was rushing back to do it again when shot. Kudos to the Ferguson Grand Jury. None for the NY Grand jury.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 9:53 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:53:46 -0500

First, I think that the Grand Jury got it right in Ferguson, MO. They got it wrong in NYC. Way wrong. What I will say about this incident is this: The resulting riots/protests have been much more peaceful than those last week. Why?

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Dec 5 at 2014 1:58 PM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 13:58:02 -0500

I am not going to dwell on the obvious, "if he had not resisted arrest, it would not have happened"... however, it did appear that the force used to apprehend him may have been a little excessive for the crime he was accused of committing. Having said that, the police officers really only had a couple of other choices; (1) simply walk away and forget that he was breaking the law and resisting apprehension or (2) continue to try to convince him to cooperate, which would have probably been futile.

It appears to me they did what they had to do, however, they should have let up on the choke hold (or whatever it will be classified as) when he was yelling that he could not breathe.

Interesting point that I have not seen much reporting on. According to a recent report, the cause of death was not from cutting his airway at the neck; it was from not allowing him to breathe due to chest compression. As such, the choke hold was not the cause of death and, therefore, the officer "everyone" is stating should be tried for murder, negligent homicide, or manslaughter did not cause the death and is innocent.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Dec 5 at 2014 3:04 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 15:04:48 -0500

I think what is more reprehensible is that not a single person administered First Aid or CPR. They just let him die.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 4:13 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 16:13:45 -0500

Should the officer be charged with murder? Not in my opinion. however, there should be some sort of charges brought. The part that really bothers me is the fact that they all stood there and did nothing after the fact. There may have been a chance that the man could have lived but no one attempted anything. Even the paramedics that arrived on the scene didnt attempt to revive him. That is what bothers me. In combat, our medics tend to the enemy wounded and always attempt to save them if they can. So why dont we do the same for fellow Americans?

Response by MSG Darren Gaddy made Dec 5 at 2014 4:36 PM

MSG Darren Gaddy — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 16:36:12 -0500

The headline reads hes a great cop and the model all cops should emulate. There are a few things wrong with these titles. Great/model cops understand when their subject is subdued and when they have control of a situation. Great cops understand the limits of force they can use to get a situation under control. Great/model cops know when they have control of a situation and then they go to the minimum force necessary to keep order and control of the situation. Model cops stop other cops from going too far and perpetuating situations well past where they should. The unfortunate thing here is that none of this was the case in this particular incident and a life was taken, wasted even. It's almost irrelevant what the race of the subject was, because of what happened. The only relevancy of race is the Jury's decision not to indict the officer. It's like saying, "He/she is a great Soldier, but he/she steals a little or he/she is overweight and can't pass a PT test, otherwise he/she is a great Soldier!" In my opinion that removes the title of great Soldier. The very word Police means to control and keep order in a given situation. Did you control a situation when you used excessive force and participated in someones death by using a maneuver that is not acceptable when the guy wasn't even being combative? I couldn't see anywhere here where this type of force was warranted for the crime being committed. These police acted more like Thugs. Police get respect already because of the position and what it means to be a Policeman, but actions like this discredit more than the person, it discredits the organization. This is just my opinion.

I cannot see any reason at any point that anyone should riot and destroy property or steal property that belongs to people not involved in anyway to what's going on. Protesting yes, riot's NO!

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Dec 6 at 2014 1:47 AM

Capt Jeff S. — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 01:47:43 -0500

It's a very sticky issue, but the man knew he was violating the law, he resisted the cops when they went to handcuff him and had he not done those things, he wouldn't have been forced down on the ground and roughed up.

I honestly think they thought he was whining about not being able to breathe, and I don't think they realized that he actually meant it that seriously. They deal with so many scumbags that whine when they're being handcuffed and being arrested, and he was just one more uncooperative scumbag they had to arrest for knowingly violating the law. I would be willing to bet that no cop there meant to kill him. Surely nobody there expected him to pass out and need an ambulance ride to the hospital. He had medical conditions which exacerbated the situation. How could they know that?

What bothers me is that blacks are turning this into a race issue and it's not. They didn't choke him because he was black; they choked him down to the ground because he was being uncooperative. The guy had a history of run-ins with the law.

I think the police over-reacted but I wouldn't go so far as to charge them with murder. When he complained about not being able to breathe, they should have backed off. That is their mistake and I could see the family winning a civil suit against the PD for that, but I think the biggest lesson we should take from this and Ferguson is that when the police ask you to do something, it's best to cooperate!!!

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2014 3:47 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 03:47:54 -0500

I have seen this video so many times...it clearly demonstrates the excessive use of force against an unarmed, unthreatening citizen. Just my .02, granted I wasn't there, only seen a 3rd person POV. I would be upset if he was my Dad. Just saying. This is no Michael Brown case...

Response by SN Brian Riter made Dec 6 at 2014 7:00 AM

SN Brian Riter — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 07:00:55 -0500

the first thing that striked me when i first saw this is why would you put someone in a choke hold when he is being put in hand cuffs are you that much of a stubborn ass to be that much of a dick to him he's being handcuff that should be it any excessive force should be reviewed properly and discipline action should take place.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2014 9:29 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 09:29:25 -0500

And to think they want to put cameras on all cops, because a camera would have been proof of something like this happening...oh wait.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Dec 6 at 2014 2:58 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 14:58:17 -0500

Son of a bitch.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Dec 6 at 2014 5:23 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 17:23:29 -0500

So far so good. I think there has been any real incidents, just minor arrests.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2014 5:39 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 17:39:41 -0500

the media is spinning this so that the officer has done something wrong.

We don't have the evidence

We are not lawyers

We are military members

we are not police officers

we do not understand the policies and procedures the police have to act according to.

We understand our "ROE" in our jobs

We understand what the media is telling us.

Lets let the judicial system in this country work. we are all sworn to uphold the constitution of the united states. We are a nation of laws.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2014 12:24 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Dec 2014 12:24:22 -0500

Bottom line....the grand jury failed to do justice for Eric Garner's family. The raw video clearly shows where Eric said he cant breathe when the choke hold was applied and the police stood idly by and at the end of the day decided against convicting that officer. There will be protests and uprisings but maybe not to the point of calling up the Guard. We need to start holding the police accountable for their actions ALL the time...not some.

Response by SMSgt Judy Hickman made Dec 7 at 2014 2:21 PM

SMSgt Judy Hickman — Sun, 07 Dec 2014 14:21:31 -0500

I have to trust that our system made the right call. It is a shame that this man lost his life.

I've only seen a short snipped of the video and clearly the cop has a choke hold on the member, did the cop mean to take an action that would lead to the man's death. No I do not believe he did, but at the end of the day the guy did die and what the cop did, helped lead to his death.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2014 5:52 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Dec 2014 17:52:06 -0500

I really don't know ... if I could see all the evidence, I would probably be able have an opinion one way or the other.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Dec 7 at 2014 6:49 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Sun, 07 Dec 2014 18:49:55 -0500

Has anyone on RP participated in any of these protests?

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Dec 7 at 2014 6:50 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Sun, 07 Dec 2014 18:50:23 -0500

I want to see the legal definition of "Choke Hold" because if what was captured on tape IS NOT one, then my grandma really did get run over by a reindeer.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Dec 7 at 2014 9:12 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Sun, 07 Dec 2014 21:12:49 -0500

I think about it like this. If he had done the same move to the cop, it'd be called a choke hold and he'd be charged with attempted murder. No doubt about it.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2014 11:53 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Dec 2014 23:53:01 -0500

Wrong wrong wrong.

Response by SPC Chelsea Fernandez made Dec 8 at 2014 1:28 PM

SPC Chelsea Fernandez — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 13:28:47 -0500

The choke hold was illegal and excessive force was used.

Response by SPC Angel Guma made Apr 6 at 2015 3:17 PM

SPC Angel Guma — Mon, 06 Apr 2015 15:17:34 -0400

You know what puzzles me (I wonder how many down votes I get with this one!) -

Cops aren't the only ones put in these 'hard' positions. Every guy that I know that went to Afghanistan was drilled enough in EOF to know appropriate from the unappropriated. As military, if there's any group that would have a preponderance of cases of excessive force, it would be Army and Marines, all the way. Yet, this would have been totally discouraged over there. Something like this would have destroyed someone's career. I don't recall any of the MPs I was with strangling an Afghan and lord knows there were plenty of moments where it was: But I was scared/Don't judge me you weren't in my shoes! In the military, this would not have been tolerated or accepted. A career tarnished, a name ruined, maybe even Leavenworth. As vague as the EOF was when I was there, the average trooper knew better, and these were mostly guys in their early 20s in a warzone. How is it these career policemen are always snapping after they are clearly dominant? "I had reason to believe my life was in danger!" Soldiers and Marines get put through the grinder just as bad as any beat cop, but they don't tolerate screw ups. Yet in the police-world, benefit of the doubt is always given and the police get off. Sad. If they can't handle the stress of the job, and feel so on edge that they are going to snap, how hard is it to find a different job or a different role in the police system? Yet, they never seem to be held accountable and the benefit of the doubt is always given.

Who else feels this way?

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2015 4:06 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Apr 2015 16:06:05 -0400

Our stateside LEO have more to do with our day to day quality of life and are on the front line fighting a myriad of threats making the United States the great country it is. While not all their actions are right there is a system in place to review these actions and when they make an informed decision I am not going to question it. Give a cop a hug today they deserve it.