NCOs enforcing standards not previously enforced; how to deal with those who can't handle it?

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Dec 2013 02:42:07 -0500

Here is the situation. A SSG arrives at a new unit and takes over a section. The Soldiers of that section have little discipline and a sense of worth they haven't earned. So this NCO makes some changes, starts enforcing the standard, and starts holding these soldiers accountable.

This is a shock to these soldiers; they are not use to it. Most embrace it, one or two try to butt heads. So corrective action is taken. Something these few Soldiers are not use to.

One of them goes to behavioral health says they are thinking suicide, blames the stress of this new nco as the reason. They ask that the NCO be moved to another section because of it.

Lets say as the senior leader; either 1SG or commander and you feel this NCO is doing just what your organization needs. Shake this up, be a hardass, and enforcing a standard that has not been enforced in this organization for a while.

Question is what do you do now? This NCO is right where they need to be. Making great changes for your organization on many levels but you have one soldier talking suicide. How do you handle this?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2013 3:04 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Dec 2013 03:04:23 -0500

<p>Get the soldier the help they need and if they can't perform after a reasonable time, start separation proceedings.  The army and its personnel have the mission to deploy and win wars for the US, if a soldier can't perform their duties to standard they need to return to civilian life.  A bar is a great tool if the will commander emplace it.  Ensure you have counseling and corrective action with follow ups in an attempt to get satisfactory results.  The soldier will either shape up or ship out.</p><p> </p>

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Dec 8 at 2013 3:28 AM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Sun, 08 Dec 2013 03:28:45 -0500

Are you looking for options as a SSG, 1SG or CO?
Was the corrective training documented and what did it consist of?
Does the Soldier in question have a history of disruptive behavior?
Are there issues beyond his inability to cope with stress in a positive manner?
Has a sensing session for the Section been conducted with the new leader absent?
Has a Commander's Inquiry been started?
From a SSG perspective, CYA. Document all sessions with the Soldier, never be alone with them. Be "supportive", and by that, I mean, don't express yourself in a way that can be seen as belittling or demeaning. Recommend courses of action in a matter of fact manner. Be consistent with all your Soldiers.
As a Senior leader, 1SG sensing session with the section to determine what the section consensus is. Is the suicider being a whiny bitch or is the SSG bordering on toxic. Mentor the SSG regardless of the determination from the sensing session. Recommend re-assignment of one or the other. If the recalcitrant is indeed just being whiny, consider seeking administrative discharge from service for compassionate reasons so he can move to a less stressful environment than the Army.

Response by CSM Mike Maynard made Dec 8 at 2013 5:30 AM

CSM Mike Maynard — Sun, 08 Dec 2013 05:30:04 -0500

If the SSG is "doing just what your organization needs" - easy, you leave him in place.

Now, how do make him "effective". Because that's really what the issue boils down to, he may be doing the right thing, but is it having the desired affect.

There will always be "growing pains" when a new leader comes in that enforces standards when that wasn't happening before. Expect turmoil and significant emotional events for folks.

How do we reduce the turmoil but still enforce standards - we clearly articulate expectations immediately upon assuming the leadership position. We do it formally through counseling and then we do it through constant engagement.

You'll find that when standards are clearly articulated and also the repercussions when they are not upheld is clearly articulated, the transition is "easier" - not trouble-free, but easier.

So, personally, I would leave the SSG in position and at every opportunity I would show the command's support for this SSG to let all Soldiers know that we believe he is doing the right thing and that doing the right thing is expected of them.

Response by SFC Rocky Gannon made Dec 8 at 2013 9:08 AM

SFC Rocky Gannon — Sun, 08 Dec 2013 09:08:00 -0500

First and foremost, ensure the soldier is getting the help s/he may be needing. Beyond that, I would talk to the soldiers, and soldiers from other sections in the platoon and company. We all know that soldiers talk to each other, see how the soldiers are feeling in that section, most may be embracing it because soldiers want great leadership!! Are they feeling a more since of pride in themselves, the unit and the Army? Are they talking smack to their peers about how much better they are? If the SSG is doing the right thing and not abusing or being toxic to the soldiers then as a Company Leadership Team, I would leave him in place and put him in charge of NCOPD to teach other leaders how to make changes correctly. Human nature is not to fail, so if a section starts to do really well others want that same leadership to do well. Before you know it, that can be the best Company in the Battalion. Set and enforce the standards, but ensure that soldier is taken care of with mental health, if they don't help him, then recommend him to be moved to the WTU to get help and a MEB/PED as needed.

Response by SFC James Baber made Dec 8 at 2013 3:23 PM

SFC James Baber — Sun, 08 Dec 2013 15:23:38 -0500

Chief Evans is 100% right, go through the proper and corrective procedure and then process if need be, the sad thing we have seen an abundance of these whiny little "B's" as chief puts it more in the last decade with the supposed more highly intelligent breed coming in, the only problem is they are too smart for their own good, they look more to get out of things than do the right thing or the standard. And some of them move up to be substandard NCOs as well when they get the chance, this is the next level of problem we have to deal with as well.

Response by SSG Randall P. made Dec 29 at 2013 4:21 AM

SSG Randall P. — Sun, 29 Dec 2013 04:21:34 -0500

I see a lot of responses from senior leadership, I'd like to put in my two cents.

Said NCO should continue to do what he's doing, soldiers may not like the changes initially but will put them a peg or two above their peer's in the long run if they stick to the standard set forth.

Said NCO's senior leadership should make sure that the soldier receives the help he needs and maybe move the soldier to a different PLT or SQD to alleviate the problem. I think this will prove whether or not the soldier is just running to the closest outlet to get the NCO in trouble, or if in fact he is thinking about suicide.

Please before the bashing of my two cent's begins all of this would be after the soldier got help. If i was a senior leader i would never tell my NCO to back down if he is doing everything by the book to the standard. Hell, I wish all the NCO's I've ever had stuck to that standard.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Apr 1 at 2014 1:39 PM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Tue, 01 Apr 2014 13:39:01 -0400

Sorry I have seen some people do this to get the NCO in troble. Not run to behavioral heath with the suicide, but simular. Ship his ass off to the new unit! ASsign him to mental health let them deal with him and then they can see how the soldier is manipulating the system. I still like smoke sessions, old school. you claimed suicide they took your shoe strings, belt, weapons and had 24 hr watch on you. I have pulled the guard on someone. my $.02.

Response by 1SG Eric Rice made Apr 1 at 2014 1:49 PM

1SG Eric Rice — Tue, 01 Apr 2014 13:49:59 -0400

Getting the Soldier help is the top priority. Apparently the Soldier has issues that need to be addressed and if they cannot get it together then it is time for them to go. Any Soldier that fails to perform or comply with lawful and/or direct orders not violating any moral or ethical standards are "self-selects". Thank you for your service and I hope that you are successful in your future endeavours as a civilian.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Dec 29 at 2014 5:59 AM

SSG Tim Everett — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 05:59:36 -0500

I'm only going to reply to two paragraphs.

1.) "Lets say as the senior leader; either 1SG or commander and you feel this NCO is doing just what your organization needs. Shake this up, be a hardass, and enforcing a standard that has not been enforced in this organization for a while."
-- If I were the 1SG and standards were not being enforced in the organisation for a while, that would mean that I'm the problem. That's a problem. Presuming I'm just as brand new as the SSG in question, though, I'd back his play and I'd have the SSG's platoon sergeant in my office making sure he knew what was what. I'd also be in the CO's office making a case for the sir to have my back and the SSG's back, and politely requesting that the CO have a chat with the SSG's platoon leader to make sure leadership is all on the same page.

2.) "Question is what do you do now? This NCO is right where they need to be. Making great changes for your organization on many levels but you have one soldier talking suicide. How do you handle this?"
-- If I'm being honest, I'd have my finger on the pulse of the unit. I'd have the Specialist Mafia reporting to me, offline. I'd be getting intel on this suicide threat. And I'd like to believe I'd have a pretty good idea if this was legit or not. If it's fake, make life a living hell for a fraudulent suicide claim. At every step of the way, documentation! Counseling and notes that detail what's going on and what's being done. First and foremost, someone's going on suicide watch whether it's legit or not. Then, the soldier will be escorted to a place where they can get help, whether they need it or not.

If the soldier can't function, start the paperwork and get rid of them. Happy trails, troop.