NCOERS and the APFT

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 01 Feb 2014 17:46:47 -0500

The Army Standard for APFT is 180 (60 in each event)

Airborne Units the standard is usually 210 (70 in each event).

If you score a 181 in a regular unit or a 211 in an Airborne unit (or any unit who holds to higher standards) would that mean you would receive an excellence(exceeds standard) or would you still rate your NCO Success(meets standards) in physical fitness?

(for discussion sake, APFT is the determining factor and your NCO is squared away on military bearing )

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2014 5:54 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 01 Feb 2014 17:54:25 -0500

Everywhere I have been you need a 270 or above to get an excellent bullet.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Feb 1 at 2014 5:59 PM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Sat, 01 Feb 2014 17:59:40 -0500

270, 90 in each event isthe min for an excellent bullet. Corresponds to the PT patch.<br>

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 1 at 2014 6:10 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Sat, 01 Feb 2014 18:10:10 -0500

The criteria is subjective. Going from a 180 to a 220 could be considered worthy of an excellence. Or perhaps you have a 180 but you keep winning 1st place at Marathons or powerlifting competitions or combatives competitions? Or vice versa, you score a 300 every PT test, but you've failed out of every run and ruck march you've been on?

There is no magic x +y= excellence formula. It's all on the raters perspective.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2014 6:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 01 Feb 2014 18:18:53 -0500

Your question is if a score of one point over the bare minimum constitutes excellence. That leaves a 180-point spread (0-179) for Needs Improvement, a 120-point spread (181-300) for excellence, and a 1-point spread (180) for Success. This contradicts the spirit and intention of the rating. Would you also recommend a 1/1 senior rating for someone who just barely met the minimum job performance standard for a year? Remember, a strong Success is better than a weak Excellence, and a strong 2/1 or 2/2 is better than a weak 1/1. All that inflated ratings do is ruin the integrity of the promotion system and cast doubt on your judgement as a rater/supervisor.

I agree with the previous posters that a record APFT score of 270 is the accepted threshold for excellence. Additionally, if the NCO was on a permanent profile and scored at least a 90 in his or her graded events (as opposed to go/no-go events), I would argue that a rater could rate the NCO as excellent in that block.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2014 6:21 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 01 Feb 2014 18:21:45 -0500

270 or above in my expercience every where i have been i order to recieve an excellence bullet.

Response by SSG Oliver Mathews made Feb 1 at 2014 10:27 PM

SSG Oliver Mathews — Sat, 01 Feb 2014 22:27:06 -0500

I can agree with what has been said, but i might add that (as an NCO
with a Perm Profile). The Physical Fitness block should not just be my
own PT. If i have soldiers and i am getting 90+ in each event and my
soldiers are only getting 70-80 in each event have i met the standards
or have i exceeded the standard?

That being said I do not believe that your personal score should be used as a bullet for an NCOER. My ability to get 90+ does not make me a better or worse NCO. Where the ability to create a PT program to reduce the number of personnel on the Overweight program, or a program that raises your entire teams/squad/platoons overall score, should be used to determine Excellence vs Meets the standards.

Again these are just my two cents.

Response by SFC Gary Fox made Feb 2 at 2014 8:56 AM

SFC Gary Fox — Sun, 02 Feb 2014 08:56:17 -0500

The minimum score on the APFT is 180 and the maximum is 300+. If a person scores a 181 they should not receive an excellence as they only made the minimum standard.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2014 3:54 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Mar 2014 15:54:23 -0400

Technically, it is exceeding the minimum standard, but I would in no way call a 181 an excellent performer (unless that 181 happened to be from a permanent profile, they got 90 points in each event, and got a go on the alternate event). An excellent should be someone who earns the PT patch, not just barely achieves the minimum standard.

Response by SSG Roderick Smith made Mar 10 at 2014 5:27 PM

SSG Roderick Smith — Mon, 10 Mar 2014 17:27:38 -0400

I think the reason that a 270 with 90 points in each event is one of the determining factors because of the APFT patch. Depending on who is looking at it, a 181 can either be an exceeded standard or a barely passing score. Earning an APFT patch solidifies the effort an NCO has put forth, and puts them on the right track for a good Excellence. If they continue this trend and RETAIN it every rating period, then that looks even better.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2014 6:54 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Mar 2014 18:54:36 -0400

I've heard in previous NCOPDs from a CSM that you would only receive an excellence if you scored 90 in each event but I have witnessed otherwise.

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Feb 19 at 2015 10:24 AM

SGT Mark Sullivan — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:24:51 -0500

The old rule applies, You can add to a standard, you cannot take away from. I'm not sure what the guideline is for each unit. I would think that they would or could differentiate. But, the problem being, is Units with higher standards, want their NCO's to meet the Higher Standard because it's that NCO's job to motivate his/her subordinates to meet that higher standard. This in turn. Meets another standard for NCO Leadership, Never Ask of your soldiers what you yourself are not willing to do. So, if you're asking your soldiers to exceed the Army standard, and meet the Unit standard, you, yourself need to do the same thing. It's like the 101st doesn't want none Air Assault qualified NCO's in leadership positions. Because, NCO's on Ft Campbell have to get their soldiers to go to Air Assault School, even though the school itself is optional. A none Air Assault qualified NCO leading people and asking his/her soldiers to go to Air Assault school would remove credibility from the NCO.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Feb 19 at 2015 10:44 AM

COL Charles Williams — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:44:03 -0500

Another Good Topic. I would say as leader you goal should never success, it should to do your very best and excel at every measurable metric. PT and marksmanship are readily available and important metrics. I would say as Leader, and former Commander, your goal should be to max the APFT; mine always was... while by the time I retired (13) I felt like I was dragging a trailer, or gravity was increasing, I never scored below a 290 on the APFT; 300 should be goal for leaders. As a Rater, and Senior Rater, PT was something I paid attention to. Not the be all end all, but it matters. But, to your question, by definition, success is passing. But, I was never looking to be surrounded by leaders how thought mere success was good enough.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Oct 31 at 2016 5:27 PM

CW5 Sam R. Baker — Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:27:14 -0400

Great question and the debate rolls on, on the NEW OER, I encourage raters to place the actual score on the OER, which is not required, merely it says just pass or fail. The officers tend to ask why the score is on the OER, it is pressure to do a little better. NCO's are not the only ones under scrutiny for a low or average APFT. There is this little part of the 3 "C"s called commitment and unless under a PULSHES code of permanent, one should try to do their absolute best. It is merely one indicator.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2019 8:35 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Jun 2019 20:35:40 -0400

Another Excellent Rating is if an NCO makes a significant improvement in their APFT score. For example: An NCO who goes from a 230 score to a 270 score is signficant.

o improved APFT score by 40 points going from 230 to 270 in a 6 month period (or something similar)