NCO Promotion Prior to Attending NCOES

SGT(P) Jennifer Brande — Wed, 22 Jul 2015 08:58:49 -0400

When I was assigned to a very small unit of 3 people, I had a soldier who had more years of service than I did, but was the same grade as me (E-5) but was irritated that I got the waiver to be slotted into the E-7 Position and he was in the E-6 slot. The major reason was he had been a Sergeant for 7 years and REFUSED, not was not able to go to NCOES. I come from the AD mentality that no soldier should be allowed to be promoted prior to attending the appropriate level of education and our Commander was derelict in his duty by allowing him to remain with the rank over 2 years when this soldier refused to go to school.

Needless to say this soldier was pissed off that I was in the higher graded position (I actually attended NCOES prior to my promotion) and made it a point to be unbelievably obnoxious during our deployment because of this. The commander also stated that he did not want to demote him because then he would have to go back to another unit that did not want him.

Since the deployment the commander retired and the soldier is still in the military but has a very poor record of being personable and that is a huge deal in our field of Public Affairs, but is very proficient in his job.

If you were in this situation, either as a leader or unit member how would you have handled this situation?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2015 9:28 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jul 2015 09:28:40 -0400

I would have counseled him regarding his refusal to attend NCOES, recommended the commander counsel him as non-recommended for promotion, and pushed for a bar to re-enlistment.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2015 9:46 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jul 2015 09:46:27 -0400

What MSG James Webb said, do exactly that.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Jul 22 at 2015 11:32 AM

SGT Craig Northacker — Wed, 22 Jul 2015 11:32:26 -0400

If the individual is proficient at his job and is satisfied with his position in life, why bother with it? There are a whole lot of people who made NCO and did not go to school, and did a great job. I also met NCO's who had no clue who graduated from NCO school. I turned down a direct West Point appointment, Operation Bootstrap and OCS. I did not see how being a 30 year old butter bar was conducive to any kind of a career. I was flattered I was asked, but my situation was my situation.
Busting his chops as his senior does not accomplish anything unless he deserved it. If he did, that is another story. Letting our personal feelings fuel our reaction is not disciplined - our job is to respond appropriately. I still struggle with this at the ripe old age of 62. Good luck, and thanks for your dedication. Perhaps a different approach might be to see how you can help motivate him. Some folks just do not respond, and if they don't it is their problem. Take care of yourself while you accomplish your mission and take care of your troops, and you will not be distracted (as much) with this individual. Good luck!

Response by SPC Nathan Acreman made Jul 22 at 2015 12:16 PM

SPC Nathan Acreman — Wed, 22 Jul 2015 12:16:37 -0400

It sounds to me that the right person got the job. Knowedge is a very important commodity in the military but attitude is everything. Someone who is good at their job can still be a cancer to the unit if their attitude stinks, and an NCO with a poor attitude can tear apart a whole team. When I was at Campbell I was a SPC with a year time in grade. While technically not a new soldier my time and grade did start over when I got out of the army and came back in. I was made team leader for my squad but when we got a new specialist with more time in service I nearly lost my job. Then the time came for us to both prove ourselves at an FTX at Ft Lewis, WA. The entire platoon was ready to kill this kid and though he grasped the concepts of our new platoon mission, he lacked the attitude and personality to get the troops to fall behind him. I kept my job and he got moved to a different platoon. My point is time in grade has little meaning when it comes to preparedness for the job. He may have been in longer, but he clearly isn't ready to lead.

Response by SGT Kieshe Mahnke made Jul 22 at 2015 2:47 PM

SGT Kieshe Mahnke — Wed, 22 Jul 2015 14:47:17 -0400

If the soldier refused to go to NCOES when provided the opportunity to get promoted, that would be an indication that they are not ready to advance to the next level. Just because you have been sitting as an E5 and get mad when someone of the same rank with LESS time in service passes over you is your own undoing. I was an E4 for over 3 years with TIS and TIG, but there were no open slots for me for my MOS. Others were getting promoted ahead of me that I started my career with and had attended WLC before them. It was frustrating, but I waited and was eventually promoted while on deployment. Your career is what you make it.....if you don't attend the leadership school necessary to ft promoted, you don't deserve he rank. It is not a title just given out, it is earned.

Response by SSG John Bacon made Jul 22 at 2015 2:51 PM

SSG John Bacon — Wed, 22 Jul 2015 14:51:34 -0400

I was an E-5 for over a year before I could attend WLC. Mainly due to the fact that we were deployed so much that it was impractical to send before promotion. While I was there as an E-5 there were two E-6's who hadn't been able to attend for the exact same reason. So to say you cannot be promoted because you don't have the school should be on a case by case basis not the rule.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2015 8:12 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:12:17 -0400

Favoritism destroys organization by promoting incompetent individuals to position they shouldn't be occupying. It is a cancer that destroys an organization slowly.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2015 1:29 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:29:35 -0400

I would have put him in for a reduction board and/or bar to reenlistment after he was properly counseled and given opportunity to reform. Sound like a reservist and as much as I appreciate him volunteering, standards must be maintained. We will have many good AD Soldiers leaving our ranks (the fat has been cut and we are into the lean meat now) that could replace him so they can still work towards a retirement. I hope your leadership has not given you more trouble than necessary, because it's always easier to "check-down" than "up" in rank. Best of luck.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2015 6:47 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 18:47:09 -0400

TIG/TIS only matters if a person meets all of the remaining requirements. My last unit I was in, I was the PSG, I had two other SSG in my platoon. There was no power struggle though, there was none of us that had gone to SLC and my Mortar Section Sergeant did not actually go to ALC until after I got him. If the other SSG that I had been serving under in my previous company had come over, who had recently attended SLC then I would have turned over the platoon to him. It is not about how much TIS/TIG you have until the playing ground is EQUAL. In your scenario, the playing ground was not. You were promotable, WITH ALC completed. My old unit got to the point, that if a person refused to go to ALC, then they would be demoted. It was not optional. WLC, ALC, SLC are NOT "optional" schools. Airborne, Air Assault, Master Gunner etc are optional schools. .
If your soldier was not working well with you, then counseling him is definitely in order. These counselings do NOT stay in his packet though, they go to the 1SG. You make it known to your 1SG what the problem is. You cannot fight the fight when you are both the same rank. The fact that you are promotable, and I assume his was too, does not mean that gives anyone the reason to be a jackass. It sets the wrong example to the troops. Small unit or not. You have to work in conjunction with your 1SG to make this right. Worse comes to worse he has to go to another unit.

Response by 1SG Todd Sullivan made Jul 27 at 2015 8:15 AM

1SG Todd Sullivan — Mon, 27 Jul 2015 08:15:12 -0400

Well let's see, there has been a lot of acceptance, and a lot of smack talk on this. First, to the SSG that said TIS/TIG only matter..... It doesn't ONLY MATTER, it is a tool, and a tracking mechanism, so that said moving on, if a Soldier refuses to train, go to the appropriate schooling, additional schooling.... BUH BYE! It doesn't matter how "good" they are at their job in the big picture they are holding back other Soldiers by stagnating in that position, to boot they have refused to train any leadership that allows them to get away with that is complicit in the down turn of our precious military, we do not except mediocrity, we teach, coach, and mentor so that we can build stronger, both mentally and physically our subordinates. But we are also charged with thinning the herd, the service is not for everyone. Now I get what you were doing with a kind of peer pressure thing..... BUT, if the result that was starting to show its self was even more animosity, then it was lost on the individual and a waste of time, doing nothing but adding to the tension, and suppression of the unit. BLUF..... The Soldier should have been counseled, barred from reenlistment, at a minimum, if the counseling did not reach its mark or have any kind of effect then a reduction board we be called for and possible chapter. It was time for that Soldier to go when he/she refused to train, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR MOS IS/WAS.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 8:46 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 08:46:45 -0400

I don't see why he got "pissed". He did this to himself. Refusing to advance in career is a huge no go and you're commander can initiate papers on that alone based on timelines.