Navy vet flips off officer in APC and gets pulled over. What are your thoughts on the militarization of our police force?

2015-04-15T13:50:46-04:00

Yesterday, I was driving in Myrtle Beach, SC and saw a Myrtle Beach Police Department (MBPD) MRAP all decked out with police hardware. I found it amusing but troubling at the same time. I mean seriously? I didn't flip it off, but seeing it left me with more questions than answers:

1. Why does the Myrtle Beach Police Dept (MBPD) need a mine resistant vehicle?
2. While it may have been given free as part of a gov't surplus program aimed at protecting our police officers, were any strings attached?
3. Should these vehicles have been given to the National Guard rather than the local police forces?
4. In the long run, are we not fiscally better off using squadcars and motorcycles and calling in the National Guard to work with the police when the situation warrants?
5. Does this militarization of local law enforcement cause the police to power trip and react differently, and treat the public as the enemy?

What are your thoughts on this?

Guy takes video of bizarre tangle with combat cops in a 'TANK' who pulled him over for flipping...

A Florida man pulled over for “improper hand-gestures” may think twice before flicking off a cop again– but the question rises: Do police need an armored personnel carrier in the middle of Florida? “I’m really getting pulled over by a tank right now,” a disbelieving 23-year-old Lucas Jewell told Alachua County deputies after they stopped …

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Apr 15 at 2015 1:59 PM

2015-04-15T13:59:39-04:00

How does someone investigate crime with an armored vehicle? Now, when you finishing laughing at that concept, think about it. It really is that absurd...

Response by COL Ted Mc made Apr 15 at 2015 2:04 PM

2015-04-15T14:04:08-04:00

Capt Jeff S. - Captain - I'm not sure about it, but I think that the cops should have tanks, artillery, and ground attack helicopters.

After all, you never know what those desperate criminal low-lifes might have hidden away.

Not only that, but the police should all be issued full body armour and have carte blanc to shoot potential suspects on sight without any fear of potential legal (either civil or criminal) action being taken against them - after all the police are only defending all of the law abiding citizenry from the heavily armed and highly dangerous scofflaws and innocent mistakes do happen. (The Police Department can always send flowers to the funeral.)

More realistically, having the police driving around in armoured vehicles is something which we are more accustomed to seeing in tin pot, third-world, dictatorships (although, admittedly, the armoured vehicles are more likely to be "Made In America" than anywhere else).

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 2:06 PM

2015-04-15T14:06:55-04:00

I didn't realize mines were a problem on the streets of America.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Apr 15 at 2015 2:11 PM

2015-04-15T14:11:31-04:00

"This drug thing, this ain't police work. No, it ain't. I mean, I can send any fool with a badge and a gun up on them corners and jack a crew and grab vials. But policing? I mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory. "
-Bunny Colvin "The Wire"

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 2:15 PM

2015-04-15T14:15:20-04:00

Law Enforcement Officers (LEOs) should have these types of vehicles and better weapon systems available to them. That being said, I wouldn't recommend routine patrols in them. The punk in the video was just being an instigating jackass.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Apr 15 at 2015 2:16 PM

2015-04-15T14:16:54-04:00

Apparently, I have the constitutional right to flip off cops. That is just spiffy, but I would never do that in a million years. I guess had a surplus of a brazillion MRAP's and other up armored toys that we brought back from Iraqistan. Instead of putting them next to my beloved OH-58D in the open desert's boneyard, we sold them to state government agencies for $1. If a cop in getting fired at by a threat that warrants it, by all means use your new toy as you deem necessary to ensure that our protectors are protected. No matter what force is applied, cops shall be held to the highest levels of scrutiny and be accountable for their actions. Was the "tank" patrolling the neighborhood or en route to somewhere? If they are using it to patrol, that is just the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. If it was in a well known drug area, where shootouts are a daily occurrence, have that bad boy cued up and ready to go! Some neighborhoods are armed to the teeth. In Philly, during the 80's, there were neighborhoods so dangerous that the cops just waited for cars to leave the area and then search for drugs. AK's "choppers" were on the street and a dime a dozen; cops had shotguns. I wish they had 100 of these "tanks" and went to town!
So keep flipping off those cops, America. Show us what you are made of. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it should be done. It is also your constitutional right to yell at and spit on the lions when the cage door unlocked. It is also your constitutional right to burn the American flag in front of a bunch of drunk service members who just redeployed and are at the bar toasting their fallen buddies. Good luck with all of that, and God bless America.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 15 at 2015 2:28 PM

2015-04-15T14:28:34-04:00

Sir,
I'll try to address some of this:

1. Why does the Myrtle Beach Police Dept (MBPD) need a mine resistant vehicle?

They don't, however, the FEDERAL government gives them these items at such a good deal, they would be stupid not to take them. When you can buy them for pennies on the dollar, AND get REAL (like actual Law Enforcement) training for free to go with it, it becomes a no brainer. You take the gear to get the other stuff. You take the "package deal" to get 2-3 things you really want, and end up with a bunch of other stuff. That doesn't mean you won't use what you have though.

2. While it may have been given free as part of a gov't surplus program aimed at protecting our police officers, were any strings attached?

Absolutely. See above. But as Robert Heinlein said "TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch." Taking the gear obligates you to assist Federal agencies when Federal investigations happen in your "yard."

3. Should these vehicles have been given to the National Guard rather than the local police forces?

Yes & no. The idea is to get them off "Federal" books. If they are on Federal books, they are one "color of money," but if they are State/Local, they are another "color of money" which means they don't have the same oversight. It's a political trick. A good one.

4. In the long run, are we not fiscally better off using squadcars and motorcycles and calling in the National Guard to work with the police when the situation warrants?

Absolutely, but... this is an "accounting trick." It's like mothballing equipment instead of destroying it. If you destroy it, it's gone. If you mothball it, you have to account for it on your ledgers. But if you "sell it" to the state/local governments, it becomes their problem. Now what happens is, they use their budget to buy $1M of equipment for $100k and get lots of free training. Sure they could buy $100k worth of squadcars.. but what would you do, if you were an accountant?

5. Does this militarization of local law enforcement cause the police to power trip and react differently, and treat the public as the enemy?

Yes. I'd love to give a more in-depth answer, but it does. If you carry a .38 with 5 rounds, you react differently than if you carry a 9mm with 17+1, or if you carry a M16 with 30rd. The more firepower you have, the more you are WILLING to escalate, because the more you are ABLE to escalate.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 2:49 PM

2015-04-15T14:49:07-04:00

I am sick of the arrogance by far too many and the shift to protectors to bullies. Am sick and tired of that.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 3:12 PM

2015-04-15T15:12:27-04:00

On paper it's better for the law enforcement agencies to acquire these assets, in reality it develops a whole new set of issues.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Apr 15 at 2015 3:17 PM

2015-04-15T15:17:03-04:00

The police do not need military vehicles period. You raise some good points that if that type of equipment is needed, that's what the National Guard is for!

I already have a problem with police departments becoming (or being) para military forces and also take issue with the fact that police have no obligation to protect life and property but only to enforce laws.

I believe it has already been ruled by courts (I'm too lazy to look up the research) that people have the right to flip off police as an expression of freedom of speech. If this man really did get pulled over for flipping the cops off, then those cops obviously have let their authority go to their heads and think that we should have to kiss their @$$es.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 3:20 PM

2015-04-15T15:20:30-04:00

I am very cautious of programs like that. I was in Slidell, LA, visiting family a while back and I saw a M1117 Guardian Armored Security Vehicle in a parking lot with Police markings on it. I was shocked to see this. I don't really think they should have something like this. It isn't really a civilian law enforcement vehicle and it send the wrong image. But if it was Myrtle Beach I am sure they use it for Bike Week. I inquired around and found that their was a plant in Slidell that builds these things and they gave one to the city. I never saw them use it but as you elude too it is a bit of overkill. Some cities like LA or NYC may have better need for these but Myrtle Beach and Slidell not so much.

Response by Capt Andrew Cosgrove made Apr 15 at 2015 3:35 PM

2015-04-15T15:35:49-04:00

The civilian police force at the local township level has NO need for MRAPs, APC's, BearCats, or any other type of up armored vehicle. The whole reason they get them is due to the Federal Government spending billions for them for use in the middle east and now having no use for them.

Give them to the guard or the County Sheriff or State Police.

Our community police need to get back to the "Mayberry Method" of police work. Cops and Soldiers are different animals. Like Wolves and Dogs. Same species but different.

Don't take this in a derogatory sense but police are like domesticated dogs. They live in the society for which they protect. They are most effective when they are closest to those they protect, much like the family dog.

Wolves live separate lives in packs and hunt to kill and eat. That is all they are good for. Hunting to kill. That is what soldiers are for. They hunt the enemy and kill them. They fail miserably when crosstrained for anything else. Disagree? Look at how Soldiers (for the purpose of this post all members of the armed svcs are soldiers) live. They are separated from society as much as humanly possible on Bases, Forts, Camps. They have a different language, they have a different legal system, and different way of life.

When cops try to be more like soldiers you end up with more strife. Soldiers are not trained nor designed to "Protect the peace." From ancient times the Sheriff's sole purpose was to maintain the good order and production of the King's Peace, Collect Taxes, and serve as the King's mediator in disputes between subjects.

US police are civilians and that simple fact rankles most cops. That is where the rub is. I have several friends who are Cops and I tell them this all the time. You are a civilian who is charged to help maintain the law and order of this town. Never met a cop who does not differentiate themselves and their brethren officers from Civilians.

The problem is systemic, as in the system is designed to train cops as the military trains soldiers. You will always have the frustration that falls to authoritarianism with this system.

Cops in England don't carry guns for this reason. Not because the country is anti-gun. The patrolmen for the London Metro Police have never carried anything more than a baton because they are deemed to be "peacemakers" and mediators. Most cops in the UK will tell you it takes more balls to be a cop in England than it does in the US because you have to use your judgement, wits, and knowledge of the area to make it work.

US cops have had the ability to use judgement stripped from them and are more or less sentries that notify higher authority to ask them if they have the authority to do something.

As I said before. We need to get back to the Mayberry Method where the cops are the good guys and know the people they are policing. The cops need to not be the frustrated hero. The cops need to simply be the iron fist within the velvet glove.

Response by SSG Buddy Kemper made Apr 15 at 2015 3:39 PM

2015-04-15T15:39:16-04:00

Mixed emotions on this one, boss. I've been a cop for a long long time, but was a combat vet first. As a vet I would never flip off a cop, and believe me I've seen some cops act like horses a$$'s. But I guess it's all perspective. One retard cop screws up a lot for hundreds if not thousands of good cops. With my army pension& disability I could just sit on my butt and not worry about what is going on in my community or my state or my country, but I'd probably be dead in two years. I feel like my dad now when I'm counseling young rookie type cops. I usually fall back on my old line that if ya want to make it in this business you better figure out quick that we can help people. Kids get molested daily. Women get beaten sometimes murdered daily. Old people are abused daily. Patrol and detective work are not Dirty Harry or CHIPS. Policing is like a combat tour in some ways...days and days of boredom for a few moments of terror and a split second to hopefully save a life and not be killed in the process.

I've only used my duty weapon twice in all theses years, and I'm proud of that fact. I'm usually the guy with an arm around a kid or helping a lady change a tire on a roadside. I've only lost one partner in all these years and i still miss him. I wish I had been in a different position that day and closer to where he was. In a way I think the police would be militarized/"martial law" deployed much less likely as the 82nd Airborne or the 101st (my old outfit). Not that those wonderful Officers and NCOs would participate in such colossal illegality, I'm just saying that their training and standards are high enough to actually make it work, if they were inclined.

And if I ever got an order to go house to house to take guns from my people like dad or granddad here with my fellow Tennesseans, I'd quit this job. Probably slap whoever gave me so illegal/unconstitutional an order in the mouth. Might get in a jam myself, but I've tried to stand for the right my whole adult life. Not gonna stop now. I've met so many wonderful law men and gals thru the years, that I feel these sentiments are in the majority of all career law officers. Certainly don't want to ruffle any feathers of folk with differing views, but trust you enough Capt Jeff S. to tell you the truth.

As always, thanks for your leadershp and your example. Thank you for discussing something that is probably on a lots of hearts lately. Blessings to you and family and all vets.

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made Apr 15 at 2015 3:40 PM

2015-04-15T15:40:25-04:00

Trying to figure this out..... how in da hell did he allow the vic to pull him over????? I know if it was me and it not a squad car..... I would have flipped it off as I was driving away

Response by TSgt David Holman made Apr 15 at 2015 4:01 PM

2015-04-15T16:01:57-04:00

Sorry, but no police force needs to be running around in ACU/ABUS/Multicams... carrying military grade weapons driving military vehicles... we already have people to do that. If the situation is that dire (and in Myrtle Beach none the less) that they need that kind of equipment, then the National Guard needs to be involved.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 4:30 PM

2015-04-15T16:30:00-04:00

It's a misguided quid pro quo effort on the behalf of the Department of Justice (DOJ) to transfer excess military equipment from the Department of Defense (DOD) to County and Municipal law enforcement agencies which have been eager to get their hands on tactical gear to expand their SWAT/tactical response capabilities in the wake of mass-shootings and terror attacks such as the Boston Marathon bombing of 2013. The red herring in the deal however, is that in exchange for the equipment and weaponry, the DOJ expects these local agencies to cooperate and support them fully and without question if and when asked. In the wake of the riots in Ferguson, many agencies have re-evaluated their arrangement with the DOJ and are now in the process of returning the freebies. It's an idea of the sitting Attorney General; you may form your own opinion and conduct your own research from there.

Response by LTC John Shaw made Apr 15 at 2015 5:27 PM

2015-04-15T17:27:19-04:00

This was a dumba$$ move by the Federal government to reuse military hardware that should have been in the Guard/Reserve system.

Civilians should be concerned, it is not appropriate for ordinary police use. Perhaps 2-4 maintained at the State level for SWAT situations. We have enough paranoid people, these MRAPs used by police add to the stupidness.

Response by SPC David S. made Apr 15 at 2015 5:32 PM

2015-04-15T17:32:54-04:00

Not knowing the full scope I do think there is some coat riding going on here especially with all the gear being olive drab. Also I've seen embedded reporters with less tac gear. I've seen more and more police in green instead of blue. Maybe they are trying to make a statement that its a war on the streets. Not sure.
It makes me wonder if this a prior service thing or a "listen to my authority" thing.

What better way to not fan the flames of a riot than to roll out of a Styker all Tac'ed out.

Response by MAJ Bryan Zeski made Apr 15 at 2015 5:47 PM

2015-04-15T17:47:35-04:00

I don't think its any kind of conspiracy - it's just a bad idea. Police need police tools, warfighters need war-tools. They are not the same.

Response by Maj Mike Sciales made Apr 15 at 2015 6:52 PM

2015-04-15T18:52:25-04:00

I think the MRAP can be a tool, but it has to be handled appropriately. This is a POPO (pissed off police officer) making his rational up on the spot. Listen to the voice tremors. He's just screwing with this guy. Also, from a safety perspective, keeping him between the vehicles is extremely dangerous during the stop. If the MRAP slips the brake (it is running so I don't know what safeguards there are) both subjects can be crushed. I've seen accidents like this on active duty and they aren't pretty. He should have been made to stand on the sidewalk for safety. Also, I'm confident that Sheriff's Office will put our a memo that only patrol officers on routine patrol will perform routine traffic stops. Glad the citizen video taped this so the SO can have a chance to change protocols. This is how we learn and improve things.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 9:53 PM

2015-04-15T21:53:30-04:00

i dont know where i stand but i dont like it 100% a step towards Fascism or a "militarized GOVT"

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 12:35 AM

2015-04-16T00:35:49-04:00

So free or pennies on the dollars is justification for local police getting armored vehicles? Ok, so if the federal government were getting rid of their supply of M240 machine guns should they be given to police?

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Apr 16 at 2015 6:39 AM

2015-04-16T06:39:43-04:00

The City/county/state police have no need for MRAPs or other armored vehicles. There is already, unfortuntaly, a perception of the police being heavy handed. I don't agree with that sentiment but it is out there. The imagery of cops in armored vehicles and gear the looks more like military than a civillian police unform only adds to the aura.

I have seen police snipers in ghillie suits for crying out loud. Talk about sending the wrong message. The police are here to serve and protect. It is a tough job. I think leadership in the field of policing need to think about the image they project and how they may be perceived.

There is a surplus of MRAP's and other vehicles, so much so, the Marine Corps is leaving or has left about 1500 MRAP's in Afghanistan and/or Iraq and have another 4,000 here in the US which is more than they want/need. Not sure what the Army's position in vehicles is but we have a lot of excess.

I suspect the government writes these down like any other comany would write down a capital asset. After X years it's value on the books in zero. It can be sold for a dollar and no harm, no foul expect to the taxpayers that paid full value for the asset that was never needed.

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made Apr 16 at 2015 1:37 PM

2015-04-16T13:37:45-04:00

You flip off a cop .. you get what you get.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Apr 16 at 2015 7:51 PM

2015-04-16T19:51:37-04:00

I am for it but I would say that vehicles should be offered to military units and Guard/Reserve components first, then to law enforcement agencies. There is a need for protecting police officers, especially drug enforcement/SWAT type units.

I will say this though, said armored vehicles shouldn't be used for conventional policing like this. Leave traffic stops to units that are on patrol and traffic duty, that's what they are for. Armored vehicles should only be used for situations such as raids where they have reason to believe that lethal actions may be taken against them. Sure they could got shot just as easily on a traffic stop but the odds of it happening are relatively low. If anything put better ballistic panels in squad car doors and use thicker bullet resistant windows if you have the money to spend. Regardless, an APV should not be used for this. Especially not for something as silly as someone flipping you the bird. Hell, I would be surprised if I didn't have someone express distaste towards me in uniform at least once in a while.

Response by MSgt Jamie Lyons made Apr 16 at 2015 10:17 PM

2015-04-16T22:17:34-04:00

It is just cops playing soldier. Sometimes I do believe it inflates their egos though. I heard that there was an incident in Panama City where a MRAP showed up and one of the individuals who were detained was veteran and actually had to show the officers how to work the vehicle correctly . Not sure if it is true or not, but I wouldn't doubt it.

I did receive a call one night from the FOP requesting donations to help fallen police officer's children in event of their death. This guy went on for 25 minutes talking about how police officers risk their lives daily, work under stressful situations, dont get paid a lot, work sometimes for 12 hrs a day, yada yada yada. At the end he asked what I did for a living and I told him I was in the military it went awkward. Lol.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 16 at 2015 11:42 PM

2015-04-16T23:42:54-04:00

Police don't need MRAPs, or military gear... This whole militarization of the police at large (not SWAT/SRT, but all police) is concerning to say the least. We have the National Guard, if we need the military within a state.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2015 2:15 AM

2015-04-17T02:15:34-04:00

I find this scary and do not see the need for it.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Apr 17 at 2015 12:46 PM

2015-04-17T12:46:12-04:00

"If it's free, it's for me." That's what I think is driving local and state cops getting this stuff. There is no reason for it, and it's not a vast conspiracy. Ever noticed how long the line is for free slurpee day at 7-11, or free ANYTHING...even stuff no one really wants? Free (or very cheap) stuff makes people stupid.

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made Apr 18 at 2015 10:35 AM

2015-04-18T10:35:31-04:00

It used to be an MRAP. Now it is a heavy truck used by a police department. This program lets local emergency services get stuff they ordinarily can not afford, but can use in a serious emergency, for cheap. This truck can rescue people during floods and storms, go over fallen trees, etc., like nothing else in a police department, fire department, or emergency medical organization. For years, emergency management agencies have grabbed up 6x6 trucks and such just for that purpose.

Paint it pink, maybe it won't bother people so much.

Response by SGT John Wesley made Apr 18 at 2015 1:53 PM

2015-04-18T13:53:00-04:00

I think it's probably not good... The militarization of local police forces via military surplus is like telling the local cops that they have a capability that they've not been truly trained for. Using Stryker vehicles and such in a civilian police force is ridiculous. When I saw a local police force of 20 policemen had obtained an armored vehicle, I just shook my head...

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Apr 18 at 2015 7:23 PM

2015-04-18T19:23:29-04:00

It's a no brainer here! I am for it, I'd rather the Local Law Enforcement know and understand how to use this equipment (and never need it) than to be in need of it and not have it or not know how to use it! While not an everyday occurrence, remember there were a couple guys in the bank robbery in Los Angeles and there was no answer....with our border situation and the thirst of our adversaries (ISIL/homegrown terrorist etc) I'd much rather have our folks prepared to take down targets within our country, just like the boy scouts...Be Prepared!

Response by SFC Jeremy Smith made Apr 20 at 2015 2:13 PM

2015-04-20T14:13:22-04:00

I really do not want Americans to go through what any occupied country goes through. I do not like seeing that.

It was like only I was watching and listening to the President when he said we will have a police force just as capable as our military....watching all these hippies in my home town of Eugene Oregon complain about it......I was like you dumb asshats VOTED FOR IT!!!

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Apr 20 at 2015 2:14 PM

2015-04-20T14:14:13-04:00

I am neutral on this point to an extent really an MRAP I mean I am all for protecting the police during standoffs and when needed but I think an MRAP is a bit extreme. I agree the MRAPs should go to the Guard and Reserves.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Apr 20 at 2015 2:21 PM

2015-04-20T14:21:21-04:00

I'm against it in principle, but to be fair police need to have the equipment to do their jobs If 2A allows John Q. Public to walk into the Quickie-Mart with an AK and 200 rounds, how are the police supposed to resolve the issue if they are out gunned?

Camo, I've been questioning forever. IMHO it sets the wrong tone even for SWAT teams because camo is associated with the military. Why not just a solid blue or black BDU?

If you need an APC, call the Guard, Its bad enough they can't get them when they want them. I'd like to see the cost justification for maintaining these vehicles at the police dept level and how many times they are TRULY needed to resolve an incident, not just taken out as a deterrent/show of force.

Response by SGT James Elphick made Apr 20 at 2015 2:41 PM

2015-04-20T14:41:50-04:00

I think the more troubling thing is that the cops look like soldiers. Sure they are in an MRAP but we all know they got those on the cheap and they have had armored vehicles for quite some time. I think the issue really is the militarization of the police forces. They look and act like combat troops too often and that is truly scary.

Response by PO1 Dustin Adams made Apr 20 at 2015 3:38 PM

2015-04-20T15:38:33-04:00

While I can see a use for SWAT especially in large cities like LA and Detroit, I fail to see why Ohio State Campus Police need or have a justified use for an MRAP.

Not as much concerned about LEO's getting military grade small arms as I am changes in training and procedures. Specifically the dramatic increase in the use of no-knock warrants and constitutionally questionable searches. No-Knock warrants used to be primarily used in drug raids, then start including high risk warrants to now a days they are used even for low risk warrants. Which has resulted in more shootings (both of police officers and suspects and in some cases complete innocents).

Please do not misunderstand me, I fully support LEO's and their mission. Theirs is a difficult job with little appreciation.

However I have concern when you see incidents like what happened in Boston after the marathon bombing where law enforcement was forcibly entering homes to search for the suspects without probable cause (that the perps where in that home) or a warrant. I understand the emotional response is to do whatever it takes to apprehend the perpetrators, but shouldn't there be a legal line for which constitutional rights are preserved? There are some interesting arguments for and against this all over the web.

The whole situation reminds me of a quote from Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

Response by PV2 Phillip Price made Apr 21 at 2015 12:33 PM

2015-04-21T12:33:56-04:00

I think that it shouldn't matter what equipment thay have as far as how thay act if thay are improper in thier actions thay should be judge accordingly as far as getting the equipment when has government assistance not had strings on it

Response by MAJ Ron Peery made Apr 28 at 2015 6:27 AM

2015-04-28T06:27:53-04:00

In the first place, how is it that an undisciplined former sailor gets national news attention for getting stopped for being rude? His actions bring disgrace on all of us.

Police have been using armored vehicles for ages. And helicopters, and something similar to swift boats, and AR 15 derivative weapons and lots more. I am not sure that equates to "militarization of police." In this case, they get the vehicles for a great price. They are not practical for most police purposes, but they are great to have if you are working a case involving heavily armed criminals, riots, or natural disasters. As for giving them to the Guard, sure, that's a good idea. And some units have them. Many don't need them, as their MTOE doesn't call for that type of transport.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2015 1:58 AM

2015-05-04T01:58:39-04:00

They think they are Military and everyone is potentially the enemy. Did anyone else notice the disrespect the deputy gave the real Military Veteran? They need to be put in their place, stripped of their military attack dogs (remember when they were just drug and/or bomb dogs?) and equipment. They should be equipped with tasers and OC spray -unless they are military Veterans at which point they may carry a sidearm. If they don't like it they can partner up with a Veteran. They should also be stripped of the title "Veteran" unless they are actually military Veterans.

From the article: “You were in the Navy. You think that’s a tank?” the deputy shot back. “It’s called an armored personnel carrier.”

If they keep pushing eventually the people will push back... and they already are. Karma is a bitch.

My views may be on the extreme side but it is how I interpret the law.

Response by Sgt Jay Jones made Jul 13 at 2016 7:19 PM

2016-07-13T19:19:08-04:00

I believe we have a fundamental systemic problem with Law Enforcement Officers in this country. Now don't get me wrong. I full support good police officers. They do an incredible job where their decision making skills must be on the same par as Air Traffic Controllers. However, there is an undertone amongst a small percentage officers that they are superior to the average citizen, especially minorities. They have what I call a "God" complex with the attitude that when I tell you to jump you suppose to not only say how high, but when can I come down. They do little too try to descalate a situation, but resort to force, because they can. My father was a Police Officer in Kansas City, Missouri for 25 years. He only had to pull his weapon and discharge it twice in his entire career. He did however, have to use physical force on several occasions, but not deadly force. As a child, I use pray that he would come home at the end of every shift. I now have three grandsons ranging in age from 9 month to 11 years of age. I am fearful that they may someday fall victim to that small percentage of police officer who has a God complex. I try to teach them right from wrong, but also how to respond when you have an interaction with an officer of the law.

I also believe that some officers have served in the military and did not want to endure the multiple relocations the military requires, but still enjoy the adrenaline rush that comes from combat. This is evident by the several reports of officers giving "high five's" to each other after subduing a suspect through physical means.l

There is also an unwritten law in this country that you have to "respect" Law Enforcement Officers. I totally agree with this unwritten law. However, it is NOT a law. So, if you have a situation where a person provides a verbal challenge to an officer concerning their constitutional rights, they are views as disrespecting the law enforcement officer and perceived as a threat. These are situations where conflicts should be de-escalated. Unfortunately often times they are not and the consequences are often tragic.

I guess I have said all of that to basically say their is a culture on many police forces, that they are outnumbered in this fight against crime, so they feel they need to have overwhelming firepower to combat any situation. Yes, we have seen incidents where this was in fact a reality of police forces being out gunned. However, those incidents are rare compared to the military equipment that police forces feel they need. I would much rather see individual State National Guard get that equipment and be called upon when necessary.

Response by MSgt John McGowan made Jul 26 at 2016 9:42 PM

2016-07-26T21:42:02-04:00

I believe it would send the wrong message when it was send out during a protest. If they need more than cars they need the NG.

Response by SPC Kevin Ford made Feb 23 at 2017 5:26 PM

2017-02-23T17:26:26-05:00

I don't flip off the police but it is troubling. It seems once the police have this equipment there is a temptation to use it. The more their tool chest is stocked with tools of force and escalation the more they will get used. If your primary tool is a hammer, most problems start looking like nails.

Response by PO3 John Wagner made Feb 23 at 2017 9:47 PM

2017-02-23T21:47:16-05:00

No, I don't like it.. It isn't the fact that they have the equipment that bothers me so much but the effect it has on the attitudes of the younger officers who are given that type of equipment to use.
Police departments are CIVILIAN organizations.. a lot of veterans do gravitate towards law enforcement professions. That said I have seen far too many situations where a young officer feels the need to play commando and overreact to imagined threats when they are armored up like combat units. It is a bad nuisance in most cases and it is damn dangerous in others. Civilian police are supposed to work for their communities and that means being a part of it. It has...in pockets, typically where overarmed and equipped officers are the norm, become a real problem. These men and women...usually the men, are not becoming a part of the community they police but beginning to create a militaristic image and have the behavior that goes with it.. Extremely unproductive.