National Guard called to Ferguson MO.

2014-08-18T12:12:20-04:00

We can all admit that the situation has gotten completely out of control in Ferguson. The locals have no respect for authority and law enforcement and been destroying their own town. Now the Army National Guard has been called to assist.
Here is where my concerns lie. The National Guard is filled with local citizens that are likely from the very town where they will be sent to quell civil disturbance. As a commander some of my biggest concerns would be:
1) Refusal by unit members that support the protestors to show up for muster and/or refuse to take part in any actions in their own town.
2) Concern for retaliation against the families of unit personnel from that community.
3) Unit members themselves being ostracized by their own community.
4) Sending equipped, armed and trained personnel into the situation and not knowing where their allegiances are and then they turn on their own.
This is a very tricky situation that is going to end with a lot of injuries and bloodshed if it gets out of control.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2014 1:12 PM

2014-08-18T13:12:56-04:00

I agree, This is a very tricky situation. I am thinking that if the Guard can come in, totally establish an AO and engage the community, maybe there is a chance this will go the right way, peaceful and organized. We are professionals as Soldiers, so I think that will prevail mainly, but there is a big integrity check going on here and it is my hope that the Soldiers remember their core values and not get caught up in the atmosphere of civil unrest.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Aug 18 at 2014 1:20 PM

2014-08-18T13:20:13-04:00

Here's my take. The police have IMHO mismanaged this whole situation. The riot control agent tactics need to stop as its only inciting the crowds even more. They had the right idea with the use of the state police, but you can't have state police officers in there both supporting AND trying to diffuse the crowd at the same time.

If the NG is sent in it needs to be as a defensive containment force ONLY. Unfortunately not even active MP units are equipped with the necessary less than lethal gear or training for crowd control. All they need is to add local NG troops untrained in LTL force being accused of using excessive force to this disaster. I think the best they can do is set up perimeters around business areas to prevent the looting and put a heavy patrol presence on the streets in an effort to deter the mob behaviors - a simple SHOW of force in HMMWVs, no weapons visible. Have a state policeman in each vehicle to do the arresting/handling/processing of criminal behaviors, NG should be 100% hands off except in protecting property and police officers defensively.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2014 1:38 PM

2014-08-18T13:38:26-04:00

I would like to think, and maybe I am wrong, that the Guard sent a unit in from another area of the state and not a local unit. For instance, if this was happening in Knoxville, TN, I would expect our state to send a unit or units from Nashville or further west.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Aug 18 at 2014 1:51 PM

2014-08-18T13:51:08-04:00

My concern is training. ARNG are soldiers and soldiers are trained differently than police. Last thing we want is a repeat of Kent State.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2014 2:03 PM

2014-08-18T14:03:29-04:00

Folks - this is a title 32 call-up, not a title 10. The governor can and should use the NG to contain the situation. Whether the NG is armed and authorized to shoot is up to the AG for the state and the Governor. Often the NG are used to be a static force to protect property - not saying this is the situation here - but this is common. However, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know, but I doubt that the NG will have the authority to arrest/detain or shoot except in situations of self-defense.

At least I hope the Governor has enough wits about him to do it this way.

As for troops shooting at Americans - these are title 32 troops - different rules and different roles. Anyone should have authority to defend themselves and others who are in true peril and these troops should have the same rights. I don't think for a moment these troop will be used to attack citizens or go into their homes - because if they do, they violate so many rules and laws it's going to take a week just to total them up.

As mentioned in previous thread comments ... it's not pretty in MO.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2014 2:40 PM

2014-08-18T14:40:44-04:00

The Governor needs to get control of this mess. First thing I would do is have the police chief resign or retire. He has no idea what he is doing, im going off of the actions that has happen after the shooting. He did not do a good job. Common sense says if you have any type of tention with police and the community you need to understand that any little thing could set the people off. This is exactly what happen and he did get on top of the situation.

Hopefully the NG Soldiers going there are trained professionals. Also you are going to need some "leaders" in the front to deal with looters, trash talkers, and anyone else causing havoc. This is not a good time to have some untrained Soldiers with weapons and ammo dealing with our own people.

Im not worried about the younger members showing up because they want their college paid for.

Personally whoever is in charge needs to find out what can be done to stop the looting there in Ferguson. I would be speaking to the mother and see how we can assist her and have her leading the "stop the violence" charge, and see if that works.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2014 4:29 PM

2014-08-18T16:29:27-04:00

The citizens of Ferguson need to understand that they are destroying themselves and should stop before any forward momentum can be gained there. The area has turned into a catch-22. The citizens started rioting and looting, so the police broke out the riot gear, so the citizens looted and rioted some more, so the police broke out more riot gear, endless cycle here, perpetuated by the civilians in their own home. I have been in situations like this albeit extremely toned down on military installations. Same mentality, which is one of entitlement that they are owed something. And because they believe they are owed something, the issue has long since gone beyond Mr. Brown and has gone onto "what have you done for me lately". What they do not see, is that by burning, looting, violating their neighbors they do not help the cause they are protesting. And they force the hand of their adversary. So what comes next? If the citizens continue to perpetuate the cycle what is the next course of action? Martial Law? Force will be met with force until the besieged get their heads out of their asses and maintain the peaceful, law abiding protests it should have been from the beginning, instead of LA riots part II the excuse for more free loot.

Response by 1SG Frank Rocha made Aug 18 at 2014 5:37 PM

2014-08-18T17:37:59-04:00

The Army National Guard is not in the habit of populating its forces with individuals known to be easily compromised professionally. Every member of the military is from local communities, whether they live there any longer or not.

To assume that members of the Army National Guard, whether from a local community or not, is easily influenced by a situation into compromising his professionalism and duties sounds like the opinion of someone that doesn't have much confidence or faith in the Army National Guard to accomplish its mission. Haven't we proven ourselves over and over again in the past 13 years? Must our professionalism, and Values in general be questioned on every turn? Without reasonable cause or evidence to boot.

How about we allow the Army National Guard to do the mission it was trained to do before we decide they are incapable of doing it. The fact that some of them are from the local community is irrelevant and has no bearing on whether a soldier will perform his duties or not. That's no different than saying a police officer will fail at his duties because he is from the local community and may get ostracized or unfairly treated afterwards.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2014 9:13 PM

2014-08-18T21:13:13-04:00

I think your concerns are totally unfounded. If you are suggesting the NG would "turn" and embrace a mob mentality, I would suggest you haven't spent enough time with my fellow citizen soldiers. Disappointing comments from a senior NCO.

Response by PO3 John Jeter made Aug 19 at 2014 12:11 PM

2014-08-19T12:11:42-04:00

IMHO - Anyone who serves in a NG unit is not likely to agree with wanton looting and vandalism. It's a different mind set. There was a lot of this concern back in the 60's too. I'm not aware of any incidents where the guard failed to perform their duties. (and the sympathy for the protesters was much more substantial back then) Personally, I'm not convinced that the problem is mostly local citizens. There have been reports of the protesters trying to stop or prevent looting and also volunteering for clean up during the days. It's a can of worms for certain, but if the guard can free up LEO to perform their duties maybe the situation can be kept under control.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Aug 19 at 2014 1:39 PM

2014-08-19T13:39:50-04:00

If it is acknowledged that it is mostly at night that the aggitators are misbehaving, then it is simple: Curfew at night. NO ONE on the streets. During the day, as long as things remain peaceful, the protestors can protest to their hearts content. After the curfew, ANYONE caught out on the streets is arrested and detained. Period. This has moved beyond a 1st Amendment right thing. This is now a public safety issue.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2014 5:25 PM

2014-08-19T17:25:27-04:00

I've always operated with the understanding that for situations such as this, the local (hometown) unit isn't the one alerted for duty to alleviate just these sort of issues. Natural disasters and such it only makes sense to activate locals units because they know the area and have a stake in the community. I am wrong in Ferguson's case?

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Aug 20 at 2014 12:51 PM

2014-08-20T12:51:15-04:00

http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/08/missouri-national-guard-arrives-ferguson-begins-police-call/#!bGP1yd

Missouri National Guard Arrives In Ferguson, Begins Police Call

Tip of the spear.

Response by SSG William Patton made Aug 20 at 2014 1:25 PM

2014-08-20T13:25:51-04:00

Hiring minority candidates was mandated in my community. To do so, standards had to be lowered so the minority candidate could be competitive. All applicants must have at least 60 credit hours in post secondary education or the equivalant work history in the field. To meet the mandate, minority candidates were allowed to substitute work in any field, where their white counterparts had to adhere to state law. Minority candidates were even allowed to have misdemeanor charges on their record, where white candidates had to have a clean record. The civil service test also provided obstacles, so the solution was to give minority candidates a test that was easier than their white counterparts. Finally, some were allowed to skip the polygraph examination and psyche evaluation. Since this practice began, 40% of minority hires have been terminated for criminal behavior or malfeaseance. Recruiting minority candidates who meet the minimum requirements has proven to be a challenge nationwide, not just in my hometown. I would venture to say the same issue an be found in St. Louis County, Missouri.

Response by PO1 Walter Duncan made Aug 20 at 2014 4:13 PM

2014-08-20T16:13:51-04:00

The biggest problem I have with the entire situation is how the mob mentality is out in force. If someone has their face covered in a protest and there is no tear gas being deployed, I would consider that individual a potential threat. Next, is the case being solved by the media before the facts or the crime has even been fully investigated. Also, why does the President and the DOJ get involved in Miami and MO, but Chicago is being destroyed by gang violence. They are silent to this. It is a pick and choose policy, while our government should not be pick and choose it for all people and we are there for all people. So are they, I think they are loosing their way.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Aug 20 at 2014 11:37 PM

2014-08-20T23:37:32-04:00

American way of life is so out of control, the whole world is just sitting back watching us wiping out each other gangland style.

Response by SSG Pete Fleming made Aug 21 at 2014 3:52 AM

2014-08-21T03:52:38-04:00

I love reading this stuff... not because of the riots and all that but because the news media spins it to get viewers, others spin it to get press, and the police try to handle it by their SOPs... and it all gets so messy...

But the other thing that gets me is no one even knows the area. Now obviously I have not read every single thread on this topic, however, what is one thing we as Military should do? Recon, learn the area (blah blah blah)

I am from Missouri, the St Louis area...Metropolitan St Louis (St. Louis City, St. Louis County, St. Charles County, East St. Louis and numerous small communities) has a pop of about 3 million. Ferguson is a sub-burb of North St Louis County. St. Louis continuously gets ranked as one of the most dangerous cities in America (year after year). I love St Louis, but we have neighborhoods on par with An Najaf (I have been to both). Think of Baghdad a few years ago, in some areas it was fine... in others everyone hated you... that is St. Louis... we have and you can look this up yourself, areas far worse than the larger cities (LA, New York, even Chicago).

Ferguson is on the edge of the 'ok' area and the 'bad' area... But it is a depressed little place. It doesn't take much to spark outrage when you have nothing anyway... There was a shooting, right away the media makes it a 'race' thing, the ill-equipped police department mishandles it, the county tries to take over. But by then things are already bad, the State steps in but not for the right reason but because of politics... Now this will become a political thing, it will be used during the next presidential elections and help keep people preoccupied so we don't focus on more important things.

I blame the Police Department they mishandled it from the beginning, I blame the people of Ferguson for over reacting, but mostly I blame the news media and special interests groups for creating these issues.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2014 5:18 PM

2014-11-25T17:18:43-05:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member, your concerns are valid.

I am angry that the media (I'm watching CNN right now) is "blaming" the poor deployment of National Guard troops for the riots, the burned buildings, the destroyed businesses, the devastation. WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE RIOTING, BURNING, DESTROYING, AND DEVASTATING?????

This is brutal, positively brutal.

Response by SSG John Erny made Nov 25 at 2014 5:36 PM

2014-11-25T17:36:30-05:00

We train for this sort of thing and it is more than riot control. It can be logistics, setting up shelters hauling in supplies as needed. Yes we do train to use riot gear, police tactics, pepper ball guns, and deadly force. None of us want to have to use that on Americans, ever. Two days of riot training are conducted every year in my old unit. We put on gear and beat the hell out of each other, you a bruised for weeks after.

When called to do this a Unit should be from another part of the State, as far away as possible to avoid retaliation on the unit members and families.

Response by SPC Thomas Lema made Nov 25 at 2014 6:00 PM

2014-11-25T18:00:48-05:00

as a former member of the army nationsl guard' we were told simply to follow and order' we did not choose wether we liked the order or even questioned it ,it was simply followed , even when i was in the regular Air force the same rules applied' . However if it is a concern weed out the members who will not do as told and take disciplinary action '