My previous NCOIC disgusted me and represents how leadership is lacking nowadays. What would you have done?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 12:34:53 -0500

<div class="text_exposed_root text_exposed" id="id_52ffa357be5523f52588281">Been a while since I wanted to choke the shit out of an NCO. SSG: I scored a 300+ on my apft so I don't need to do pt with my platoon anymore. Me: How many guys in your platoon need help with pt? SSG: We have four dirt bags that suck at pt. Me: How about you work with them instead of dipping out. Or maybe work in your spare time with them like my NCO's do? SSG: I got mine. They need to get thei...rs. Me: How about you give it a try, that's what we do as NCO'S. SSG: Doesn't matter big Sarge, besides I have a lot of things more important than worry about them. Then I said some harsh stuff I won't post here.... Then I said some harsh shit to his boss.... Guess I'm wrong for believing we don't give up on our Soldiers....even when they give up on themselves.</div>

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 12:50 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 12:50:40 -0500

I'm baffled with this post.

Response by SSG Andrew Dydasco made Feb 15 at 2014 12:53 PM

SSG Andrew Dydasco — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 12:53:12 -0500

That's pretty pathetic, SGT. But unfortunately, it's not as uncommon as people think. As a Junior Enlisted Soldier, I can say that it doesn't go unnoticed.

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Feb 15 at 2014 2:24 PM

CSM Michael Poll — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 14:24:38 -0500

This is an NCO I wish was in my COC...  It is the responsibility of the NCO to TRAIN SOLDIERS.  Whether it be PT, Combat Skills, admin skills etc.  THis is the reason NCO's exist.  This guy would recieve special attention from this CSM.....

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 2:39 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 14:39:31 -0500

yup,, i can completely see that happening, especially with todays NCO's, and ESPECIALLY the ones that were passed on up through the ranks just because we were deployed all of the time. I agree with the CSM, I too would like to have this guy in my unit... but the funny thing about Karma, she rarely misses the people that need her.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 3:37 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 15:37:48 -0500

SGT Jackson, I'm at a loss as to why you posted this as a topic for discussion? We all have been around long enough to have witnessed or heard these type of stories before. Keep trying to re-educate these NCOs when/if you encounter them, but I'm not sure we want to continue spreading the word that NCOs are failing.

Response by CH (CPT) Heather Davis made Feb 15 at 2014 3:47 PM

CH (CPT) Heather Davis — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 15:47:40 -0500

SGT Jackson:

Let your defining moments that frustrate you motivate you to excel and mentor and develop those that you can inspire.

It wasn't that long ago as an E-5, when I was punched in the face at formation, and it took sheer tenacity to get back into formation and push forward. This was in the late 80's when I was the first female in my unit.

Remember regardless of the situation you have to maintain military bearing, and professionalism. Take the high road regardless, and give back especially when it wasn't given to you.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 6:26 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 18:26:31 -0500

Its a sad reality but nonetheless a realty. We do have those toxic leaders and anyone who's been around for a while have encountered at least one. great comments  from everyone here, good discussion. Keep in mind this is not about SGT Jackson guys all he did was initiate this discussion. CPT Davis I love the teaching point. 

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 8:17 PM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 20:17:17 -0500

Nasty!

Response by SGT John Rice made Feb 15 at 2014 9:15 PM

SGT John Rice — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 21:15:13 -0500

He is a very poor example of a NCO. I am glad that I am no longer in, if he is an example of what the NCO Ranks have come to. Nothing is more important than helping the lower ranks improve themselves.. Sgt Dave, I thank you for doing what you can to be a proper and real NCO.

Response by SSgt George Brown made Feb 15 at 2014 9:22 PM

SSgt George Brown — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 21:22:41 -0500

SGT,

First, the SSG is entirely wrong in attitude AND leadership quality.

Second, you MUST maintain your bearing and respect for the rank of those appointed over you. Do not let anger get the best of you. Be respectful and let the flowery language not be spoken. You do not know who may be listening, an you may instill disrespect for those who have seniority.
Third, this may be a First SGT visitation moment, if the superiors don't check his attitude.
You be the leader!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 10:10 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 22:10:22 -0500

This is just beyond ridiculous! It sickens me deeply. Why be an NCO if you're not up for doing one of the biggest duties you have as an NCO?

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Feb 15 at 2014 11:02 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 23:02:55 -0500

This is how I would look at that situation SGT Jackson. That SSG is in as much need as leadership as are his joes in need of help in PT. You fix them both the exact same way. Their leader needs to be out their helping them at PT, motivating, coaching, training. His leader needs to be out there with him doing the exact same thing for leadership. What I'm sure you will find is that just as he is absent from PT so is his leader absent from his development. I guarantee you he doenst even have an initial counseling or NCO support form.

"All Soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership. I will provide that leadership."

They are part of "all Soldiers." You are a leader. Provide that leadership, even if their own leaders don't.

Response by SFC Steven Harvey made Feb 16 at 2014 2:19 AM

SFC Steven Harvey — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 02:19:39 -0500

I can understand the post, but where is his PSG, 1SG? I would hope they see this and reflected in his NCOER.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2014 1:02 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 01:02:17 -0500

Unfortunately I have witnessed this behavior many times in my short military career. I will not go into a big hum drum with references and standards for this topic will continue to be brought up. What I believe needs to be done is for everyone to not continue to over discuss these topics, but to remember and utilize the old adage " Deeds above Words". My meaning is simple address these issues in the most professional and tactful way possible as they arise.

If my words offend anyone here I do apologize it is not my intent.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2014 2:01 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 02:01:54 -0500

Use his response as a motivator for you to be a better NCO and leader as well as an example to your fellow NCOs and junior Soldiers.

Response by MSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2014 9:14 AM

MSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:14:09 -0500

This is a similar situation across the spectrum...The last 12 years have produced way to many self servicing NCO's, promoted to fast based on the OPTEMPO. Many young NCOS's focus on the paycheck and not the duties and responsibilities outlined in our NCOS CREED. Wish I was in his NCOS support channel, because we would have a very nice heart to heart.

Response by SFC Rich Carey made Feb 17 at 2014 9:34 AM

SFC Rich Carey — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:34:33 -0500

That is shameful - It was always about my Soldiers and not me. It was always about my Sergeants and not me. I am only as good as my team.

He sure has missed what the Army Vaules is all about - LDRSHIP:

Loyalty

Duty

Respect

Selfless Service

Honor

Integrity

Personal Courage

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Feb 17 at 2014 1:15 PM

LCpl Mark Lefler — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:15:31 -0500

I wish I had NCO's like you when I was in.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2014 6:35 AM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 06:35:28 -0500

SGT,

Glad to see your concern for the troops here. As you progress in your career, DON'T LOOSE THAT!

As a leader, your most important assets are the people you work with. It is your duty to help others. If someone can't be bothered to mentor their people, then how can they look at themselves in the mirror with pride? And how can the Army or any institution allow them to advance?

Their are some fine leaders who do look after their subordinates and associates. Sadly, I've seen too many people walking around, whose main motivation is to advance themselves and to hell with their fellows.

Keep the faith and do what you know to be right even if the rest of the world seems to be against you.

Response by CSM Chris McKeown made Feb 18 at 2014 7:23 AM

CSM Chris McKeown — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 07:23:16 -0500

WOW, I am blown away on this. IMO this kind of attitude that this SSG demonstrated started on up his chain of command, the reason I say that is, they excused him from PT just because he maxed his PT test. I would have never gone along with excusing anyone from PT. Back in the day there was a reason we had the Specialist Ranks that ran up thru Spec-7, not everyone is cut out to be a NCO, those that weren't was kept in the Speccialist ranks. SGT Jackson keep doing the right thing and stay the path, I would be proud to serve with you any day.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2014 9:31 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 09:31:04 -0500

Here's something I have an issue with. PT incentives for NCO's that have soldiers under-performing at PT. I've seen this done correctly. As long as the NCO has soldiers that aren't PT exempt, he should still have to do PT with them. If that NCO achieves at getting his whole squad PT exempt, then good job. You are now also PT exempt. As long as you still have even one soldier that hasn't met that standard though, your duty is to be out there working to improve that soldier.

Response by SGM Chris Kaukali made Feb 18 at 2014 4:10 PM

SGM Chris Kaukali — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 16:10:02 -0500

If there were Soldiers who were not meeting the physical fitness standards. I was out doing PT right along with those who needed the extra training AND their leadership. This was not punishment; it was a show of support for those who needed the extra training. When Soldiers see their leadership is truly trying to help (and not just going through the motions), they put in a lot more effort. Individual accomplishments are great, but "Team" accomplishments yield greater rewards.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 6:50 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 06:50:03 -0500

I'm not surprised. Though I pass my APFT with a respectable score, I'm often still considered a dirtbag when I can't hang with younger soldiers. I'm 46, I'm not going to do as well as a 25 year old on the APFT, and that's normal biology.

It's an attitude that's been around for a looooooong time, it's just become more prevalent.

Response by Sgt Will Cameron made Feb 19 at 2014 6:59 AM

Sgt Will Cameron — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 06:59:17 -0500

It's called be a MENTOR!!! THATS WHATS WRONG WITH SOME PEOPLES THOUGHT PROCESS NOW DAYS! its all "I'm good and I got mine, FORGET the rest"! You won't be thinking that way if you need him to throw down cover fire for you to get you across a hot zone to safety! You'll be wishing you helped him get HIS then!!! I'm no longer active in the Marine Corps, but if your anywhere close to where I am, come see me. We'll see how well you got yours on lock... Bird! Disgusted! That individual should have already learned you are a direct reflection of your juniors!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 9:50 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 21:50:27 -0500

NCOs are meant to coach, teach and mentor Soldiers. In addition, we provide purpose, direction and motivation in everything we do while in the military. NCOs need to find ways to improve Soldier morale. I invite all my Soldiers to play basketball and workout with me in the weekends. I always have a great turnout. In addition, when there are fun runs or races in the local community I make it a PLT, BTRY or even BN level event by sending an invite to all Soldiers and NCOs. This helps in improving their physical fitness and gets the Soldiers out of the barracks. Furthermore, they get to see a different side of my NCOs (myself included). This is not mandatory, it is something I do, to simply get Soldiers into living an active lifestyle outside the military and to build camaraderie. I also do this in order to not single out the Soldiers who are weaker in PT. This approach allows for all Soldiers to show up and encourage each other to improve in their physical fitness.

Response by SSG Jason Greene made Feb 20 at 2014 1:55 AM

SSG Jason Greene — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 01:55:57 -0500

You make a great point man. Thing is, a lot of NCO's these days are just about that report card. A lot of take this responsibility a bit more personal, but many don't. I always felt like my guys were a reflection of me. If they look like crap, then so do I.

Response by SPC David Dunn made Feb 20 at 2014 2:59 AM

SPC David Dunn — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 02:59:28 -0500

Here is the issue with this. And I hope to explain it as I have it thought out in my head. Additionally, this is just MY opinion.

When a Soldier gets the honor of putting stripes on their chest, there is an automatic level of respect that goes with it. It is important to understand that you did not earn that respect. That isn't to say you aren't a great soldier that will make an outstanding NCO. That's not at all what I mean. What I mean by this is the respect you get from day 1 is respect that was earned by the NCO's that came before you. This is where the "time honored corps" comes in. Many NCO's that preceded you earned that respect and now have entrusted YOU to carry on the standard and tradition. When you place those stripes/rockers/diamond...etc on your chest you begin the process of earning the respect for the next NCO that will follow behind you. You will, through good leadership, develop a level of personal respect from your soldiers but the respect for the rank was earned by the NCO before you. This is a critical concept that should be understood by NCO's because when you advance up the soldier that follows you will either have to work harder to gain the respect back for the rank OR they like you will be graciously handed an intact and honored position. Unfortunately, this SSG has begun the degradation of respect for his rank. While it might not affect him personally, I would assume that when SGT J makes SSG and is in the same unit he will have a decent level of damage control to do to restore that respect level.

Very simply put. If you are entrusted with the honor of being an NCO, don't make the hard work of the NCO's that came before you count for nothing. They bled, sweat, and worked very hard at making it a "time HONORED corps." It is now your turn to carry the torch. Do the soldier behind you a favor and don't drop the ball.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2014 11:41 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:41:50 -0400

The only thing I missed in this this NCOIC post is when his Platoon SGT ordered this NCO to attend PT to ensure his Soldiers PT scores improved.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2014 11:41 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:41:53 -0400

The only thing I missed in this this NCOIC post is when his Platoon SGT ordered this NCO to attend PT to ensure his Soldiers PT scores improved.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Mar 10 at 2014 12:12 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:12:53 -0400

PT is good for the soul even for the strongest and fastest soldier in the platoon.

Response by SSG David Dickson made Mar 10 at 2014 10:42 PM

SSG David Dickson — Mon, 10 Mar 2014 22:42:16 -0400

"I got mine"... that phrase should automatically rate a "NO" on the NCOER Values (selfless service). I do think it's okay to cut a stellar performer some slack and give them one or two days a week to pursue their own program (it's obviously working), but yeah, NCO's are responsible for more than themselves. If they want to only worry about themselves, they can be a SP5 (or 4 it's all good). Definitely should be a career stopper beyond 6.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2014 6:12 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Mar 2014 06:12:57 -0400

Honestly, if my first line supervisor told me that, I'd simply pick up the slack and look to conduct PT with these Soldiers to help them raise their physical fitness and APFT score. Stuff like that doesn't go unnoticed by Soldiers. They talk just as Leaders do.

Response by MAJ Jeff Coulter made Mar 18 at 2014 11:04 PM

MAJ Jeff Coulter — Tue, 18 Mar 2014 23:04:42 -0400

What has happened to my Army? When I enlisted in the late '80s, I had senior NCOs who had been in Vietnam. Their constant focus was on instilling standards and discipline into their Soldiers. That focus stuck with me throughout my career. Do we think that because we're reverting to a garrison-based force that standards and discipline no longer apply? Is the raw material that we're working with of a lower grade than previous generations? I really want to know. It's things like this that make me really want to retire. Four more to go. I'm tired.

Response by SSG Paul Newman made May 13 at 2014 4:23 PM

SSG Paul Newman — Tue, 13 May 2014 16:23:11 -0400

Glad that when I served I had SGT's like the poster who asked the right questions to make me think, and 1sg & csm's to kick my ass when I didn't. Communications and ideas flow up and down. The army way has served me well as a civilian paramedic and ER nurse the same way it did as a medic in the infantry. I owe my civilian career to the training and leaders I learned from in the army.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2014 4:45 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 May 2014 16:45:26 -0400

The sad thing is that this guy will get a excellence check on his NCOER PT/BEARING and his team will struggle. The guy will pick up the next rank and duty,as it's an important block in most formations; his Soldiers under him will struggle and lose faith in the system over the smallest things. When I was an OC at JRTC I seen this from more then just a few leaders, often the leaders looking after the Soldiers are the ones not addressed as the backbone. I believe that the new evaluation system needs to reflect actions like this. As DA PAM & AR 623-3 ties your hands a bit to reflect info like this.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 1:00 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 01:00:34 -0500

SGT Jackson, I thank you for caring about soldiers that not even yours. Because if a leader see his subordinate having issues then he should help them not let them learn on their own. I will agree P.T. is a individual responsibly no matter what rank you are , but we all may need some motivation or some to get us going. I would be happy to trade places with you fall under your leadership.

Response by SSG John Erny made Dec 22 at 2014 11:09 AM

SSG John Erny — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 11:09:48 -0500

SGT Dave Jackson,

Take the troops that are having a hard time and have them do 10 push ups and sit ups 3 or 4 times a day. It really does help.

Response by SPC David S. made Dec 22 at 2014 11:25 AM

SPC David S. — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 11:25:41 -0500

His PT score is the lowest of all his soldiers as a unit is only as strong as the weakest link. When his soldiers realize that their NCO would and or has left them high and dry his leadership skills will reflect it with dissension within his troops. He can hide in the shadows for a while, but that's the great thing about shit it still smells in the dark.