My Platoon Sgt has ordered us to get name, rank, and a reflective E for eco troop sewn on ruck and FLC at our own expense. Can he force this?

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 01:06:01 -0500

I understand accountability of ocie gear is important. I have also heard the 'its covered by your clothing allowance argument'. Does the clothing allowance cover alterations to gear issued at CIF? My main question is can he, as a platoon level leader, discipline me if I don't spend my own money to alter my gear. Especially when the other platoons in my troop, or squadron, are being asked to do this.

Also, and references to regulations would be appreciated.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2018 7:06 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 07:06:31 -0500

First of all if your PLT SGT gave you an order follow it because he is trying to ensure your ruck is marked and accounted for. Second if your whole platoon has these marking on their item you will be the only without it and you don't want to lost more money by disobey an order from a Senior NCO. My suggestion if you can't afford let your first line know so they can help but if you have the money pay it because you will cause more problems for yourself in the long run.

Response by MSG Dan Castaneda made Feb 8 at 2018 8:05 AM

MSG Dan Castaneda — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 08:05:38 -0500

As a PFC if my PSG told me to go do something, without question I would go do it. You don't need a regulation to tell you to do it. Your PSG telling you to do it, should be good enough. If its not, then take a good look in the mirror and start thinking about what you want to do when you ETS.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2018 9:07 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 09:07:42 -0500

If you itemize, you can write off 'uncompensated, job related expenses' on your taxes. This would count... as would any uniform purchases/ costs of alterations in excess of the clothing allowance, field gear paid for out of pocket-- knives, flashlights, etc.-- assuming the primary purpose of the purchase was for your job.

Response by SPC David Willis made Feb 8 at 2018 9:30 AM

SPC David Willis — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 09:30:42 -0500

Just do it. The 25 bucks it will cost will save you hours of pain.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2018 9:48 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 09:48:17 -0500

PFC Private RallyPoint Member , you are marching into a fight you will not win. The order given by your platoon sergeant is not illegal, immoral nor unethical. Therefore, yes he can discipline you for failing to follow the lawful orders of a Noncommissioned Officer. While my answer is short and sweet, SSG(P) Lauren Manuel answered your question best.

Response by SGT David T. made Feb 8 at 2018 10:08 AM

SGT David T. — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 10:08:30 -0500

First off, he can't force you to do anything. You choose to do it or not. However, you must live with the consequences of your choice. You can choose to do it and accept the consequences of losing the money. Or option B, you can choose to not do it and accept all of the consequences that come with it (UCMJ, perceived as dirt bag, not a team player, not worthy of a waiver for E-4 ETC).

Many years ago, I was told this very same thing. I thought then as I still do that it is total BS to make a Soldier pay out of pocket for something the unit requires. However, it is almost always a bad idea to rock the boat when you are sitting in it. The path of least resistance is to simply do it no matter how much BS it is. Just remember things like this when you are getting close to your reenlistment window. Think about things like this when you make your decision to reup or get out. Unofficial expenses tend to increase the higher up in rank you go. Good thing is if you itemize your taxes, you can claim it as a deduction. So there is that at least.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Feb 8 at 2018 10:11 AM

Capt Tom Brown — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 10:11:56 -0500

Why would the PltSgt make this demand of his troopers? He has the blessing of the CoC? He/she must feel there is a good and proper military reason for such a move. Unfortunately it is not something I would fall on my sword against doing. Learn from the individual's example and remember this in future years when the shoe is on your foot.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2018 10:19 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 10:19:42 -0500

Let me ask you this: As a Soldier who was given an order that was not illegal, unethical, or immoral, why are you questioning it?

The Army provides clothing allowance for reasons such as this. Units do this all the time it is normal and as a Soldier who signed for the gear you should WANT to do it to maintain accountability. All too often I see Soldiers blowing their clothing allowance and then come back a month later upset because they have to buy gear.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Feb 8 at 2018 10:33 AM

CSM Richard StCyr — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 10:33:42 -0500

This is a subject that appears frequently here on RP. If an order isn't unethical, immoral or illegal then it's a valid order. This must be some new phenomenon where folks don't spend money on things related to their profession. As a squad leader when I wanted everyone to have their name embroidered on their helmet band because people s hand writing sucked, and the ink wore off, I bought helmet bands at the hock shop and paid for the guys first set. Same as 1SG only the Commander chipped in. Replacements were on them.
Personally, as a troop I had my name sewn on my rucksack, I used an old name tape from an unserviceable uniform so the cost was minimal. As an Engineer it was common for us to sew the reflective E on the backs of our helmet covers and field PCs depending on the unit FSOP. Again the cost was minimal. It also paid for itself when my ruck fell off the truck and I got it back (not many St.Cyr's around) Easily cheaper than a couple beers or energy drinks.
There are many instances in life that are simply not covered by the "reg". Having your gear labelled is one of those things that not only makes sense but in the big scheme of things the cost of having ones shit clearly identified is nominal compared to the cost of having ones shit lost and not returned.

Response by SSG Dale London made Feb 8 at 2018 11:59 AM

SSG Dale London — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 11:59:03 -0500

To answer your question, no. He does not have the authority to order you to buy extra gear. If it is required for service, it should be issued. But this is not a really regulation/non-regulation issue.
Let's be real here -- if the PL wants everybody in to mark their gear in the same way it is a really good idea for you to comply. Notwithstanding the sheer practicality of it -- and, trust me, his idea is a good one -- bucking him on this will not go well for you. People are people and non-conformists are not welcome in the army. If you don't want to buy into the group think then you're setting yourself up as a non-team player.
Okay - If it's a money issue (and it nearly always is) talk it over with him and see what can be done.
But if it's a matter of principle then he is likely to ask himself why do you not want to conform to the unit ethos. Are you going to be a discipline problem or a disruptive element in the unit?
I can guarantee that most of your NCO's will be thinking along these lines. Yeah - he cannot order you to buy the gear and you are perfectly within your rights to refuse.
But there's a huge world of difference between being "right" and being welcome. Are you prepared to be shunted to the side? Passed over for promotion? Assigned more rubbish details than your buddies? Are you ready to pull more than your "fair share" of CQ, KP, casual detail? That's where this will go. If your PL and PSG have are least half as savvy as most leaders are, they will dress it up in ways that cannot be fought.
It's as simple as this -- nobody likes a barracks lawyer. Suck it up and buy the stuff already.

Response by Maj John Bell made Feb 8 at 2018 1:18 PM

Maj John Bell — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 13:18:27 -0500

I'm not sure this applies, but in the Marine Corps, if you permanently modified or personalized any 782 issue item, you just bought it And you cannot use it while on duty.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Feb 8 at 2018 2:05 PM

SN Greg Wright — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 14:05:23 -0500

I certainly wouldn't want to go to the mat with my CoC over 25 bucks. Pick your battles, PFC.

Response by SGT Christopher Hayden made Feb 8 at 2018 4:16 PM

SGT Christopher Hayden — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 16:16:07 -0500

As others have said, just do it. I worry about your future in the Army if this is the kind of thing that you're questioning. You make more than enough to pay for a few alterations to your gear and if it's something you can't afford, then you need some financial counseling.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2018 6:46 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Feb 2018 18:46:26 -0500

Generation Y (why?) in action here. Is it worth the small amount of cash to skyline yourself? You can fight it and end up paying for it as long as the PSG is in charge of you. Lots of weekend duty and special details could be in your future. Pay me now or pay me later. Think about it.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Feb 9 at 2018 11:21 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 09 Feb 2018 11:21:09 -0500

1. It is a legal order. 2. It will run you around $10. 3. It is a sound order- have you ever been told to drop rucks, throw them on the truck, etc.., which leaves your ruck with your gear outside your management? Then just how the hell are you suppose to find YOUR equipment once you link back up with it out of the 40-120, etc other rucks?? Especially if they tell you 10 min to find it ruck and be ready to move again? Damn son, in the 82nd Rangers, Corps- all rucks were marked with our Names and some ort of reflective designation.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2018 10:25 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Feb 2018 10:25:42 -0500

Yes. Stop complaining and do as your told.

Response by CPT William Jones made Jan 12 at 2020 3:14 PM

CPT William Jones — Sun, 12 Jan 2020 15:14:54 -0500

I would say as an officer a long time ago since the order came from psg to modify official uniform or equipment the order was out of line and not lawful. If the company commander or higher I would say do it to save yourself possible problems. I don’t think a PSG has authority to order a SM to arbitrarily modify uniform or equipment.