My buddy recently Commisioned, and said he expected a lot more out of OCS. Is it a case of An NCO stuck in an NCO mindset?

2016-08-09T18:59:08-04:00

This may sound like a shallow question, but I fail to see how OCS could fail anyone's expectations. I have never been in that environment specifically, but I would imagine only the best get to lead the ones that lead others into fire. He didn't get specific out of respect for the "O" core, but I really wonder what he saw that disappointed him so much.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Aug 9 at 2016 7:08 PM

2016-08-09T19:08:43-04:00

"Familiarity breeds contempt" fairly springs to mind. Law school did the same thing for me. I could never look at lawyers the same way after rubbing elbows with nascent ambulance chasers.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 7:22 PM

2016-08-09T19:22:30-04:00

I was an enlisted Marine for nearly 11 years before going to Army OCS bro. It seemed to me to be much like MAJ Ballinger noted already, and looking back on it I think of it as a 12 week examination, to which they only send people who are considered very likely to have what it takes to pass.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Aug 9 at 2016 7:23 PM

2016-08-09T19:23:58-04:00

When I did USAF OTS at Lackland, back when dinos roamed the earth, before it moved to Maxwell, I was with many senior enlisted there who'd also gone to the program. I think, and this is purely my own thought, mind, you, in retrospect, that, quite possibly, your friend may have been through so much of his own training, and his own level of prior active duty exposure, that, maybe, he just found it rather anticlimactic, perhaps, in terms of the level of difficulty he expected to encounter. Sometimes, as I think back to the various reactions I encountered from senior enlisted going through the program with me at that point, I freq wondered about that aspect. Many were from other svcs, doing essentially an imterservice from their own svc, one guy, I recall, actually had Navy dolphins, from being enlisted Navy on subs, I'm not sure now with what rate, as I think back. That's the one thought I can offer at the moment, hope was of interest, at least; interesting observation, though, got !y mental gears turning a bit, lol, I'd be eager to hear your thoughts, many thanks.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Aug 9 at 2016 7:53 PM

2016-08-09T19:53:51-04:00

Remember that OCS is "Entry Level Training." It's a different type of Entry Level Training than Basic, as its specifically tailored for college graduates and people who will be going into a management role (as opposed to HS grad going into "worker bee" role).

After years of experience in the Army (or any Service), there is A LOT of overlap your friend was likely already accustomed to, and hence he wasn't getting the full benefit of the training (having received it already). Additionally, he is seeing "unrefined" candidates in the transformation process. They are fresh from college, not seasoned with MOS school and viewing them through the enlisted filter, but instead viewing them as "peers."

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Aug 9 at 2016 8:32 PM

2016-08-09T20:32:45-04:00

It's hard to say, SSG Private RallyPoint Member, as I really don't know what your friend expected. Times have changed, and I'm sure that OCS has changed along with the times. When I was commissioned from OCS in JUN73, the experience had been brutal. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it was better. Tactical officers were like drill sergeants on steroids, and believe me, if a Tac decided you didn't deserve to be in OCS, he could almost assure your departure, one way or another. However, I still believe that the U.S. Army produces the best army officers in the world, so we still must be doing something right.
When I entered OCS, I was a sergeant and already airborne and Special Forces qualified, so many of the blocks of instruction were nothing more than refresher training (map reading, land navigation, weapons training, patrolling, etc.). However, there were other components of the curriculum that were invaluable, like D&C from squad to company level, presentation skills, and other things I can't even remember. I may never have learned those skills outside the OCS environment. Overall, I felt much better prepared to be an officer after OCS than I did before. I wanted to become an officer, so I "got with the program" and learned as much as I could. As with most things, you get out of it what you put in to it. Much of what I learned has been applicable in my civilian life and work, and for me, it was a life changer.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least that if you query your friend some years from now, he might have a completely different response.

Response by CAPT Douglas McDonald made Aug 9 at 2016 8:38 PM

2016-08-09T20:38:00-04:00

NCO knows way more than boot zeros...probably bored at times..

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2016 3:25 AM

2016-08-10T03:25:51-04:00

I am a prior service NCO that attended OCS in 2014. I personally didn't find the experience under whelming. I wouldn't say it was hard or easy, but an adjustment more so than anything. The history portion and land navigation were the hardest parts of OCS for most of the candidates in my class. But I think it varies by your skill set upon arrival to OCS. If you suck at running, it will show in PT, if you suck at land nav, it will show on test day. I say you get out of OCS what you put into it.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2016 3:31 AM

2016-08-10T03:31:17-04:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member , like LTC Stephen C. mentioned below, its difficult to have a reference of your friends mind set and exactly what he was expecting the training to be like. It has been little over 14 years since I went through USAF OTS as a prior service NCO so I can't speak to the current training. However, I recall times during the 12 week training where I was thinking "WTH did I get myself into" but there were also times when I thought "wow, this is too easy". Bottom line is that they could have a separate OTS class for prior service trainees but then they would likely have to double the length of training for the non-priors... The mix the classes so that as a prior you can pass on some of your core service experience and knowledge...you teach the basics like how to wear a uniform and proper customs and courtesies so the Cadre can focus on teaching leadership and doctrine.

If your friend thought that when he graduated from OCS that he would know all there is to know about Leadership then he was mistaken. In my opinion, in our military, about 2% of the Officer corps are "natural born leaders", the rest of us have to make a distinct effort to be a student of leadership and to continually grow and develop our leadership abilities because there is no magic wand that an instructor can wave that will give you the right answer in every leadership situation. It takes dedicated effort everyday and it takes making some mistakes and then learning from them so you don't make the same mistake again.

Response by SPC James Gromley made Aug 10 at 2016 4:57 AM

2016-08-10T04:57:35-04:00

NCO's are the backbone of our military always have been always will be. officers are there to plan, organize and take the blame when things go wrong. The NCO's are those who make certain every thing gets done.

Response by CDR Terry Boles made Aug 10 at 2016 9:32 AM

2016-08-10T09:32:54-04:00

I spent nearly 17-years Navy enlisted before commissioning into the Air Force. As many have said, there are a lot of military aspects that one is very familiar with already while attending OTS, but its the officer aspect one has to adjust to and it takes time.

It took me nearly 3-years before I felt 100% comfortable in my skin as an officer in all respects with my enlisted life behind me. Not that I was trying to remain with an enlisted mindset or buddy buddy with enlisted troops which I wasn't, it was simply transiting from an enlisted career to an officer career.

Fast forward 19+ years later and I fondly remember my enlisted days, but I also fondly enjoy my officer days as well. I have been very fortunate to enjoy two entirely separate careers. Hope your friend will as well.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2016 8:28 PM

2016-08-10T20:28:38-04:00

I have "heard" that Federal OCS isn't bad at all, but for some reason most state OCS programs are smoke shows. No idea why, but especially in the Northeast it seems to be the way. They treat prior enlisted soldiers, mostly NCOs, like dirt for a fourteen months. Stark difference compared to
ROTC.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2016 2:10 AM

2016-08-12T02:10:54-04:00

It has been my experience that a school has always failed to meet the expectation that I placed on it. What I have come to realize is that every school, no matter how elite or selective, is designed to produce graduates. Granted some schools have lower graduation levels than others, but the goals are still achievable. Ranger School for example used to let PV2s attend and they graduated. Kids right off the street can enlist for Special Forces, and after three years of constant evaluation and training, they graduate at a surprising rate. The reality is, the myth and mystique surrounding many schools often exceeds their reality.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2016 2:03 AM

2016-08-14T02:03:47-04:00

Let me answer your inquiry this way: I have attended some leading national law enforcement schools. Their lengths of stay varied from a few days to over three months. On at least two occasions, by removing the absolutely meaningless fluff classes, both schools could have been reduced by as much as 75% of the allotted time. Both times, my boredom meter was off the charts. That MAY HAVE BEEN the issue your friend was experiencing.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2016 1:41 PM

2016-08-29T13:41:02-04:00

I spent about 16 years Enlisted in the Active Army, before I commissioned in 2009. I know prior to that, maybe even as "early" as 2005, that OCS was basically 14 weeks of hazing. I am not sure when your buddy commissioned, but I can only assume that it was within the last year. Was OCS underwhelming when I went through? I guess it depends on what part you mean. When it came to all the basic Army stuff, after spending 20 years (I spent just under 4 years in the Reserve Components) came to me pretty easily. Now all the admin and other stuff that they taught us to prepare us to be Officers was a little more difficult since I had to let go of being an NCO and accept that what I was being taught was just a different side to the Army.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2016 1:55 PM

2016-08-31T13:55:03-04:00

I commissioned through OCS in 2009 and it was extremely competitive. The school is different today than in the late 90s, let alone years before, but it is a fantastic producer of young leaders. As others have mentioned, I don't know what he expected, but the course was different than I expected too. Everything was evaluated, scored, and contributed to the OML. The OML determined the branching process and of the approximately 1500 total points available to us, the separation between the top graduate and the guy in 10th place (me) was less than 10 points. That is a close race.

We had to be nearly perfect on everything to be competitive for the top spot and all classes and blocks of instruction included huge amounts of information that we had to retain after hearing only once. Asking questions, while accepted, was not something that always helped.

I believe the course was less about becoming a tactician, and more about developing the foundation to become a well rounded officer. That includes retaining large amounts of information, developing decisions based on diverse information sets, and communicating effectively. PT performance was also critical and if you did not score a 300 on the APFT you were at a disadvantage. Many were also recycled or kicked out for PT, land navigation, academics, and one for an integrity violation.

I felt like I left the course having learned nothing (I could barely remember the week prior, let alone all the course material), but I later realized that military schools are not about developing experts. They are about providing baseline exposure to a set of skills that individuals will refine as they progress in their careers. OCS does exactly that, it provides new lieutenants with the wide breadth of what it means to be an officer and exposes them to many of the skills they will need to know regardless of which branch they are assigned. I am proud of my experience and I believe that in retrospect it was a fantastic, difficult, and amazing experience. I am proud of having commissioned through OCS and your friend should be also, maybe that will come with time.

Response by LTC James Kelly made Jun 28 at 2017 2:13 PM

2017-06-28T14:13:31-04:00

I attended FA OCS in 1966. Our class was all NCOs from E-8s to E-5s with minimum of 4 years active service. Started with 126 and graduated with 26. Having been through Boot Camp and Basic I would say it was the hardest time I have ever served! I had already had a tour in VN so that's saying a lot! Have no inadvertent what today's OCS is like. But judging from what I see of the Army here at Fort Bragg I'm sure it has been dumbed down! The troopers I see now wouldn't have made it through Basic let alone Airborne school in the 50-60s!

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Jun 29 at 2017 7:27 AM

2017-06-29T07:27:34-04:00

I'm like your friend, of all the courses I've taken in the Army, OCS was one that I simply felt like I had to endure. There was nothing taught about tactics that I didn't already know, I was in better physical condition than any of the TAC, I was better at land navigation than the instructors (as were most of the guys out of combat arms) and generally was as good at Drill and Ceremony. Unlike my Drills, I never had much respect for any of the TAC's, although the Academic side was a different story. So I learned what I needed to learn, got to practice a lot of tasks I already knew and let it go at that.

That probably should be didn't have any respect for the TACs.

I finished tied for the top student.