Masters Degree required for Colonel (O-6) promotion. What are your thoughts on this?

2014-12-09T14:03:10-05:00

I have came to find out that in the Air Force you are now required obtain a Masters Degree to be promoted to Colonel. Without it you would not be considered for promotion. This is in place in the Air Force. The Army currently does not have anything like this in place. It is highly encouraged but not required.

Should higher education, beyond that of a bachelor degree, be required for promotion to such a rank as COL? I can see how this would greatly reduce the pool of candidates for promotion right away.

*Be advised there are many programs in the military can aid you in obtaining your Masters. There are even institutions in military such as the Army War College that can bestow a Masters degree on you. Not everyone has the opportunity to go.

New education rules for Air Force officers begin Dec. 1

Response by SGT Richard H. made Dec 9 at 2014 2:07 PM

2014-12-09T14:07:03-05:00

Still, it's very rare (if not all but unheard of) to see a COL without a graduate degree, war college, etc.

Response by LTC Paul Heinlein made Dec 9 at 2014 2:36 PM

2014-12-09T14:36:45-05:00

This would have minimal effect.

As a recently retired active duty officer, from my experience about 50% of active duty Army officers acquire a Masters Degree before they get promoted to MAJ. Those that do not have it by then, normally obtain one while they go to Command and General Staff College as a MAJ.

For current MP Officers, we have a program where they can obtain a Masters Degree while they attend the Captains Career Course. So, for the average Active Duty MP Officer, they have the opportunity to get their Masters Degree around their 4th to 6th year of service on active duty.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Dec 9 at 2014 4:35 PM

2014-12-09T16:35:12-05:00

I have a masters degree. I can't land a job being in charge of a Chuck E. Cheese. Stay in the military.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Dec 9 at 2014 4:49 PM

2014-12-09T16:49:58-05:00

I'll keep getting education as long as the Army keeps paying for it. They paid for my undergrad and my Master's. Hope they will pay for a second one too!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2014 5:03 PM

2014-12-09T17:03:20-05:00

I don't think that it necessarily should be required. If a degree is not required to be commissioned, then a higher degree should not be for promotion to O6. Especially with a Masters coming when they graduate from the War College.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Dec 9 at 2014 5:13 PM

2014-12-09T17:13:02-05:00

I think this is a reasonable criterion to put in place for promotion to O-6.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Dec 9 at 2014 5:28 PM

2014-12-09T17:28:12-05:00

We can not have a conversation about a possible requirement (in this case master's degree for promotion to colonel) without an understanding of the need for the requirement and the effect we are trying to create. To that end:
- Strategic credibility. Higher degrees such as MS and especially PhD provide the Army strategic credibility as we engage academics, politicians, and private industry at the strategic level.
- Mental Discipline. Higher degrees such as MS and PhD provide an individual with mental discipline in how to think, not what to think. This is a good characteristic for a senior leader to have.
- Levels Education. I heard once that a BS/BA provides a person with the vocabulary of a discipline, an MS/MA provides fluency in that discipline, and a PhD enables a person to produce new words and thoughts within a discipline.
- Broadening. Senior guidance is that the Army needs to produce leaders who are broadened. Simply translated, this means that a leader has more in their toolbox than just a muddy boots "hammer".
- Broadening 2. Ties to above but a higher education provides a senior leader with thoughts and viewpoints outside just a military viewpoint. Again, a key characteristic for a senior leader.
Therefore having a master's degree should be a requirement for promotion to colonel within the Army.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2014 6:05 PM

2014-12-09T18:05:55-05:00

While I wholeheartedly agree with COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM, I have a concern that without placing any type of criteria/requirements on the type of degree and where it is from, the Army won't see the positive outcomes described. I cannot speak to the quality of the degree programs that come from the military, but certainly I feel that they will not likely have the kind of broadening effect that a degree from a civilian program would have - especially when people are getting degrees in their same branch (I see this a lot in MI).

I just would hate to see this become another "Check the Block" requirement.

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Dec 9 at 2014 6:02 PM

2014-12-09T18:02:49-05:00

I think this is a good idea in a way as long as it is a Masters degree in there area of expertise. im sure in some communities it would not matter but other ones im sure it would.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2014 6:16 PM

2014-12-09T18:16:16-05:00

You need one for Colonel and most of the time even Lt Col. The Air Force is like switch with Major. The last few year years you needed one for Major for the Active guys and us reservist did not. I think they just masked education for this years Majors's board. They are not consistent.

Its just another check box I think to weed out anyone w/o one. The problem is that most my peers go get a shake and bake degree where you enroll and just add water and a year later you have a degree.

I never met an active duty Lt Col that did not have one. My guess is that this will force people to get a degree sooner than later if they are looking for O6.

Response by Capt Brandon Charters made Dec 9 at 2014 6:16 PM

2014-12-09T18:16:53-05:00

Thanks for sharing CPT Private RallyPoint Member. I see this keeping the pressure on USAF CGOs and FGOs to get that masters early. If you look at most senior leader bios, they are covered in higher education. Having a barrier to entry just helps to formally communicate this requirement. I believe it's a good reg to have in place so there isn't any confusion come promotion board time. In general, would you prefer the rule or unspoken truth? Rachel A. Adler Madeline Kronfeld Cindy Smith PO3 John Aldrich GySgt George Vukovich John Weiss Joshua Casto PO3 Hsiao "Jack" Hsu Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member Maj Private RallyPoint Member Maj Private RallyPoint Member MAJ George Hamilton CPT Aaron Kletzing

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Dec 9 at 2014 7:39 PM

2014-12-09T19:39:23-05:00

Officially it is needed for Col, but in practice it is pretty much a requirement for Major. Even on the enlisted side, they just formally changed the rules to officially require an Associates Degree for promotion to E8. It has been a defacto requirement for years. With promotion to E7 now moving to a board, I am sure it will be a defacto requirement there as well to get the best board score.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Dec 9 at 2014 9:52 PM

2014-12-09T21:52:27-05:00

In my branch, you won't make LTC without a graduate degree, let alone COL.

Response by PO1 Michael G. made Dec 9 at 2014 10:02 PM

2014-12-09T22:02:32-05:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member Sir, obviously I am not an officer or even in the Army, but I don't think that's a bad idea at all. Any comparable senior management position in the civilian world, regardless of what industry or sector it is in, would most certainly require a masters degree, and I don't think anyone thinks twice about that kind of requirement.

Response by CMC Robert Young made Dec 10 at 2014 4:52 AM

2014-12-10T04:52:18-05:00

Sir, I have two masters degrees as an E9. What's the big deal about asking the O5 to spend a little time in the classroom to make O6? Who knows, they might pick up something useful...;-)

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2014 9:23 AM

2014-12-10T09:23:13-05:00

I have about 40 personnel that fall under me all E-6 and below and out of the 40 nine of them have Masters degrees most of the nine are E-5's. The rest have a Bachelors Degree or an Associates Degree. When an Officer completes War College, they are awarded a Masters Degree. In today's military, we have a very educated force, this has changed over the years. It is up to you and I as leaders to rise to the challenge and set the example for our personnel to emulate. There are a handful of SNCO's in my unit that do not have their Associates degrees and the Air Force has it's own community college (CCAF). After you have been through basic, tech school and have completed all of your PME you only need 5 classes to obtain an associates degree in the Air Force. That is a very small sacrifice for the benefit. Also, how can you push education onto your subordinates when you are not leading by example? Recently our Command has made a policy that no enlisted member will be promoted to the rank of SMSgt/E-8 if they have not obtained their Associates Degree through CCAF. I believe a more educated force is needed in today's military, it shows that we are seriously evolving and keeping up with the civilian work force. The degree also sets you up for a smooth transition to civilian life once you retire/seperate from the military, thus taking care of our people. I'm all about the decision!

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Dec 10 at 2014 9:55 AM

2014-12-10T09:55:44-05:00

Given that I have two of the things and would like to thin the herd going into my promotion board, I believe this policy should be implemented retroactive to 2010.

The above was (mostly) tongue in cheek. However, I do believe that the idea has merit. It's not necessarily that the degree has merit (any more than the BA/BS for commissioning), it is that it serves as a marker or indicator. Specifically of a certain level of abstract thinking ability and a certain level of intellect and dedication. At the COL level, you are expected to be able to master complex topics while being able to keep the whole big picture in mind at the same time. A Masters is a good proxy for this.

COLs are counted on to do a lot of the heavy thinking for the Army, and are explicitly the pool from which all future GOs will come from.

Please note that I used weasel words: Marker, Indicator, Proxy. We have all known degreed people who were as smart as a box of rocks and half as motivated. As well as non-degreed people who are remarkably well read and adaptable. However, policies like this are intended to cover the majority of the population. Any such policy will have outliers.

As far as "not everyone has the opportunity to go", I throw the BS flag. This goes to the dedication piece above, and it's frankly a really LOW hurdle. The military is one of the most education-supportive institutions in the nation. Not only is there the GI Bill and Tuition assistance, there are many in-service options to gain a masters, including CGSC (a few extra classes, at Kansas State, I think) and the AWC.

If someone argues "time" or "workload", I am throwing the BS flag again. First, I have found the military VERY forgiving of time devoted to educational activities during the "work week". Second, Officers at CPT and above have a fair ability to control at least some of their schedules. Third, education is actively pushed. Generally, you are NOT going to see a senior tell you NOT to pursue education.

Note: I will readily grant "no time during a specific tour" because some are really non-stop or remote. And some bosses are asses. However, we are looking at around 22 years TIS for COL (and 16 for LTC, for that matter). If you tell me that you couldn't find the time in the course of an entire freaking CAREER, again with the BS flag.

Personally, I was able to pick up two AAs, a MS, and an MBA on my own time while working in my civilian job with no time off. This is in addition to many profession-specific certifications and employer sponsored leadership programs (two of 9-10 months each, during the work day but in addition to my duties). While also working as a Reservist and pursuing military-relevant professional development - ILE, AOWC, CAS3, Functional Area certification, Air War College, and now Army War College. All while spending time with my son every other week and otherwise having a life. I'm not all that special. I simply decided what was most important an prioritized my activities - Something anyone in the military and most especially a senior field grade should be expected to do.

What you are really telling me is that you didn't WANT too. Which is fine. You've told me something about the kind of work you want to do and the level (of responsibility, if not pay) you are willing to rise to. Okie Dokie.

All of the above rambling aside, LTC and COL boards are "best qualified" boards. Now that the Army is starting to downsize and selection rate goals are dropping, I would bet next months' pay that greater than 90% of the selected Officers will have a Master's at the COL level, and probably 70% or so at the the LTC level. Again, it is a proxy and the people sitting the boards, especially with limited time, are going to take advantage of that, even if it is imperfect.

The practical effect of a "mandatory" policy would be to give the board fewer files to slog through. Which would hopefully give the board slightly more time to review each file that might actually have a chance to make better decisions. And probably some sort of waiver for the hard-luck stories (and the few who actually have a convincing argument - all 8 of them.)

/rant over.

Response by GySgt George Vukovich made Dec 10 at 2014 9:56 AM

2014-12-10T09:56:44-05:00

Thanks for the mention Capt Charters! How to respond? First, I dont think i'm qualified to suggest what's appropriate for promotion to senior officer ranks. As a retired infantry man I know 'tactical & technical proficiency' should be an absolute mandate. Adding a higher level of education to the resume would suggest the individual is well rounded in terms of thinking. My second thought, and I'm certain all will attest, is the 'competition' factor. Many, many deserving officers compete against one another for this promotion. I guess (without including this as a requirement) the graduate degree should be used as a measure.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2014 11:51 AM

2014-12-10T11:51:58-05:00

The military provides a menu of opportunities for military officers to pursue advanced education, to inlcude Advanced Civil Schooling, Functional Area Designation, Fellowships and Broadening Opportunities, Internships, and even programs targeted for those at Staff and War College.

The benefit of an advanced education is that it provides the learner with the opportunity to exercise and strengthen his or her "critical thinking" skills. These are skills that are necessary to expand one's capacity to function as a senior organizational leader.

Another nuance of education is that those people who consider themselves as life long learners are the very people that we need to identify and retain within our military. Life long learners possess the quality of intellectual curiosity, and we need people who are willing to learn and grow intellectually, while sharing that knowledge across the organization.

I would encourage a policy in which a Masters Degree is required for selection to senior levels of leadership, and even suggest that a doctorate (or pursuit of a doctorate) be a requirement for General and Flag Officers. This will not only benefit our organization internally, it will also benefit the perception of our organization, as we move toward a Joint, Intergovernmental, Interagency environment, in which members of other federal agencies (such as Department of State) are very highly educated.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2014 1:05 PM

2014-12-10T13:05:07-05:00

It was actually scaling back for the Air Force. It used to be a de facto requirement for promotion to major.

Response by CPT Kit Lancaster made Dec 10 at 2014 1:05 PM

2014-12-10T13:05:43-05:00

To add to many well qualified statements below, I think the question is why? Why a masters? There are many cases, professions, positions and career tracks that could benefit the armed forces and the military professional by having a Masters Degree or higher. That said, I believe as a society we are too focused on education for education sake.

I think it might be better to create a position or time slot for higher ranking professionals to attack problems. I would be more impressed with a group of officers given special assignments to create value for their branch / area of operation or project in combination with a educational assignment or educational professionals. I say this because I hear people say all the time "I need to get an MBA / graduate degree". My response to that cop-out thinking is WHY?

What are your trying to do that requires that qualification? Will the skill sets you acquire be applicable to your short and long term goals? Short and long term mission requirements? Will they have an impact on you and your ability to meet your next mission?

I ask that question and I think it is only fair to demand a detailed thought out response. You can read a lot of self development books and industry journals to keep up in spirit and in thought but will they help you keep up where the rubber meets the road? Everyone thinking about an MBA or Masters Degree needs to spend time running that question to ground. Also take into account time and costs.

Don't just do it, because you think it is a good idea. Depending on your career track, goals, short term and long term career prospects and options, their maybe alternative and highly focused graduate level programs that better suited to your needs and interests.

For example. A masters in Finance does little for me as a Wealth Management Advisor. No one cares on the client side or the corporate side of the industry. However, earning a Certified Financial Planner Designation (CFP) or Certified Investment Management Analyst (CIMA), that means something. It is valued and looked for by clients and businesses. These programs are graduate level and take about a year to complete. They are highly focused with TTPs and actionable information, processes and procedures valued by the financial services industry.

There are many designations out there that could be cross applicable for military and civilian use. From project management designations to Human Resources designations.

Specialization is more highly valued than generalization. When it comes to a career path you need to consider who you are, what do you do, and where you want your additional education to take you. After you have figured out that question you can better address the question who needs a masters and who doesn't.

My point, education for education sake is bad for everyone. While I'm all for liberal arts education, we need to think how much better off are we with a LTC with a masters in Marketing, History or Accounting if they do not work in those respected areas.

Response by Maj Jeremy R. made Dec 10 at 2014 9:44 PM

2014-12-10T21:44:16-05:00

Compared to the trend I have seen which is an emphasis on O-3's getting their masters to be competitive for O-4 - I prefer the O-6 requirement. Is it just another box to check to differentiate people in an outdated promotion process...yes.

Response by SPC David S. made Dec 10 at 2014 10:31 PM

2014-12-10T22:31:58-05:00

While I don't think it should be a requirement I think its a good idea to have one as going to a promotion board without one the individual might find themselves getting passed over for someone who does.

Response by COL Rich McKinney made Dec 11 at 2014 7:18 AM

2014-12-11T07:18:49-05:00

You have to ask "Why?" Is there a need for a Masters to command at the O-6 level? Is this a "weeding out" process? Remember that the AF has more O-6's than any other service and the smallest Leader-to-Lead ratio in the military.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2014 9:26 AM

2014-12-11T09:26:57-05:00

I had it before my CPT board started. You need the discipline to get it. Realistically those even on active duty can get it with the 17 or so years it takes to make O-6. Now will it matter if it is in rocket science or if it is in underwater basket weaving?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2014 10:06 AM

2014-12-11T10:06:55-05:00

Sounds logical to me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2014 10:08 AM

2014-12-11T10:08:37-05:00

I believe that it should be a requirement for an a Colonel to have a Masters Degree and was under the impression that such would have already been a requirement.

When I was on the trail as a Drill Sergeant my BDE CDR was and OCS Hall Of Famer who would often encourage me to apply for OCS. At that time I only had an Associates Degree and was enjoying leading Soldiers. I had wanted to be a Drill Sergeant since BCT many years earlier and was living the dream.

"THIS WE'LL DEFEND"

In 2006 their was a shortage of officers in certain AOC's where each MAJCOM was given a number that the CG could select for direct commissioning. I met all of the requirements while holding a Detachment Sergeant that later became a First Sergeant position as a SFC I who just knew I was going to be selected for MSG. I submitted my packet but pulled it back as I just enjoyed being a SNCO more than anything in the world.

Well hindsight is 20/20 in that who knows where I would have ended up as an Army officer while clearly I did not end up being selected for MSG what ever the reasoning may be. However, I did end up completing my Bachelor of Science Health Sciences in Health Care Management (Summa Cum Laude) in 2007 and Master of Science Health Sciences in Public Health (Summa Cum Laude). I was recommended by my Colonel and inducted into the Military Order of Medical Merit (O2M3) Member Number 9374A.

The one other individual who I went to AIT with that received multiple Summarized, Company and Field Grade Article-15's that did not become a Drill Sergeant until he was promoted back to SSG and Drill Sergeants were removed from the AIT environment that was taken care of by the same CSM who made him the Brigade Drill Sergeant Manager when there were no longer Drill Sergeants was selected for MSG and served as a Hospital 1SG before being fired and was recently selected for SGM.

Life is not fair while today I am making my bones as a civilian federal government employee proud to still be serving the men and women of our Armed Forces to date. Two other individuals who I attended AIT with who are friends with the above mentioned individual were commissioned after having been selected and promoted to MSG now CPT's...yes, there is more to the story while I imparted this based on this topic with the notion of equality in an unfair and out of balance Army filled with toxic biased leaders finding that there are Colonels that do not even posses Master Degree's quite shocking!

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2014 12:54 PM

2014-12-11T12:54:31-05:00

Having earned my bachelor's and master's degrees upon separating from active duty, I can see both sides of the coin. On the pro-side, a master's degree shows a motivation to continue learning, can heighten critical thinking skills and builds greater proficiency in your career/field of study. On the con-side, an advanced degree does not necessarily impart better leadership skills and some careers do not always have an advanced degree within their field of study.

Overall, I think the idea is a good one.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Dec 11 at 2014 1:09 PM

2014-12-11T13:09:30-05:00

More than 98 percent of the Air Force's 9,916 lieutenant colonels — or 9,760 O-5s — already have master's degrees. I think Gen Welsh is just formalizing what is already an informal requirement, and it will only "weed out" the 2 percent who couldn't be motivated to go back to school.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2014 1:45 PM

2014-12-11T13:45:35-05:00

A consideration maybe but that is asking a lot for a promotion to Colonel. Nine times out of ten the Officer will be accomplishing this feat at the expense of Government time or family time. Both will have their negatives. I suppose if it done over time it would ease the negatives but how do you monitor that?

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Dec 11 at 2014 1:53 PM

2014-12-11T13:53:28-05:00

I can see how this will be used to RIF. Getting rid of the competition. I have only one thing to say - Papers don't make a horse.

I served with a couple very good combat arms officers, whom I'd follow anywhere. Their careers were cut at the LTC level because they weren't the best at briefing, but they had great command ability.

Response by SSgt Tim Ricci made Dec 11 at 2014 2:53 PM

2014-12-11T14:53:24-05:00

I pretty much thought a Masters Degree was a given for 0-6 being they normally attend the war college! I remember the Marine Corps trying to institute degree programs for SNCOs, but am not sure it panned out! To tell you the truth I think its a good idea but beyond enforceable.

Response by CPT Jason Torpy made Dec 11 at 2014 4:01 PM

2014-12-11T16:01:15-05:00

Don't worry. There are so many degrees that easily offer a translation of military schooling or service to a Masters Degree, especially by the time you're up for Colonel, you really have to be avoiding it not to acquire one.

Response by Sgt Brandon Palmer made Dec 11 at 2014 6:24 PM

2014-12-11T18:24:12-05:00

I don't think it should influence promotion. If a Lt. Col has a degree in underwater basket weaving and has a field command, having a Masters in such degree doesn't increase anything. I say make sure they are up to date on their professional military schools. I'm not sure what officers have, but things like Cpl's course, Sgt's course, Staff Academy, ect. for officers.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2014 6:58 PM

2014-12-11T18:58:07-05:00

Being promoted should take a combination of experience, life skills, and education. I would certainly expect an O6 to have at least a Masters degree from a valid institution. Many of your subordinates are likely to be better educated than you, today's global concerns require a sophisticated skill set.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Dec 11 at 2014 7:02 PM

2014-12-11T19:02:49-05:00

First, it makes more sense to me having this requirement in the Air Force than other services...but the world is always changing and I hope this keeps up with the times. I think education is an important consideration, especially for advance command and leadership BUT on the list of considerations, it should not be the only or even the top. With that being said, education does not and should not trump actual experience, in my opinion. Here is my totally made up side by side example to clarify what I am trying to get at. Two LTCs, one with a PhD in Education and 16 years of experience in logistics, with 14 of those years at the same duty assignment in the US with a MSN from the last assignment for parts accountability; the second with their BS in Engineering and 16 years of experience in combat arms, with multiple deployments to combat zones in multiple theaters, with the only extended period in the US being in the hospital after the third purple heart, with outstanding performance reviews leading various platoons, companies, battalions in combat with short time as Brigade Commander when he took command when the unit was on the verge of being overrun. Credited with leading the decisive action that turned near defeat into victory for our forces, along with the multiple purple hearts they have nearly every award and most with “V” devices. The second LTC would have loved to have been able to earn an advanced degree, but never has had the time to attend class, or even register…who do we promote? Maybe we promote both, but would anyone think the PhD is a better litmus test to ability than the other’s experience?

So my short answer, required NO, a consideration, maybe. In the Air Force, sure why not. Not intend as negative or positive toward the Air Force, just what it is?

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Dec 11 at 2014 7:34 PM

2014-12-11T19:34:55-05:00

I am not sure about the other branches, but you can go to an application on the AF Portal called THRMIS and view the civilian and PME education levels of any rank in any (or all) AFSC. It is also great for applying for base of preference assignments since it will show you manning levels at any base or MAJCOM for any AFSC and rank combination.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2014 8:47 PM

2014-12-11T20:47:26-05:00

I think that it should not only be a requirement for promotion to O-6, but also O-5 as well as being a factor for O-4. While not a perfect system, having officers who have expanded their knowledge and experience base has the potential to improve the force in ways that would not have been likely had they not taken this path.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 2:24 AM

2014-12-12T02:24:59-05:00

I'm an E-5 in the Navy and currently working on my Masters. I don't understand the what the fuss is about.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 2:32 PM

2014-12-12T14:32:04-05:00

Yes, U.S. Army War College in Carlisle, PA, awards masters degrees to the senior O-5s and the O-6s that attend. The other senior service colleges do the same, but there is a difference between a graduate education in a military setting and one at a civilian institution. The purpose behind the requirement needs to be fleshed out. If the goal is to have O-6 commanders that can think creatively and apply modern organizational techniques to military organizations, than it makes sense. If the goal is to have another hoop to jump through, it doesn't.
As the beneficiary of an Army sponsored Master's degree, I believe that the experience and challenge was well worth the effort because it forced me to think in new ways and have a different perspective. New perspectives are crucial in trying to solve the complex problems we are asking BDE CDRs to solve.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 2:34 PM

2014-12-12T14:34:08-05:00

Making the Master Degree a compulsory requirement doesn't really matter if the promotion boards already find it to be a favorable accomplishment. Those that have it will already being given higher consideration because of the degree. Unless there is an adverse document in the board file, they will likely already be selected over those who don't possess a graduate level degree.

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 4:01 PM

2014-12-12T16:01:31-05:00

Sustained Superior Performance...imagine an individual who performs head and shoulders above his/her peers but for some reason, doesn't have a masters...which definitely has devolved into a "shake & bake" degree with little real value (in many cases). To promote a lower performer over this individual would be wrong on almost every level...bad for the service, bad for the nation, and patently unfair to the individual! If the degree represents a capability gained in the process of achieving it, then promote individuals based on their mastery of the capability rather than one of several tools that could have gained them that capability...or not in the case of the "shake & bake". Bottom line: in the current era of "shake & bake" masters degrees, the tail is definitely wagging the dog and in many cases invalidating the ulterior motive behind the requirement.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Dec 12 at 2014 4:09 PM

2014-12-12T16:09:22-05:00

That's an interesting one. Without diving into it to deep, I think it's a good idea. I at least think a degree in a related field would be a plus. My Last OIC had a degree in forestry management. That's a big help in managing a squadron.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Dec 12 at 2014 4:15 PM

2014-12-12T16:15:54-05:00

Masters < green card.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2014 1:34 AM

2014-12-13T01:34:56-05:00

Every officer who goes to CGSC/ILE has an almost unmatched opportunity to earn a graduate degree. So there's little excuse in not having one by the time they make O5. In today's military, people must actively and constantly seek self improvement or they can easily find themselves out of work.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2014 10:38 AM

2014-12-13T10:38:05-05:00

This is a non issue for Colonels. Well over 90% of Regular Army LTCs that have served as BN commanders already have at least one...many are earning their second and even third at a Senior Service College.

Colonel is too late. It's my opinion that new Majors/post command Captains should be the target audience for a Masters. While screening potential new S3s and XOs for our SBCT, a masters was a key factor. The reasons are self evident. There are ample opportunities at Leavenworth to obtain a MMAS as a new Major.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2014 11:40 AM

2014-12-13T11:40:39-05:00

Just think of all the military officers that could have been prevented from rising up the ranks if this policy had been in place from our country's inception. Officers with no Master's degree like Gen Washington, Gen Grant, Gen Macarthur and Gen Eisenhower, to name a few you may have heard of.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic. While education is always a good idea, I don't believe that absence of an advanced academic degree means one cannot effectively lead. On the other hand, with as many opportunities as we have for improving our education, it does say something about an officer who doesn't take those opportunities to better themselves.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2014 12:03 PM

2014-12-13T12:03:42-05:00

Good graduate programs teach you to think through problems on a very fundamental level. They get at why questions. Military experience and education focuses on how to get things done (which does involve ask some whys, but on a different level.) Senior positions - the types most colonels inhabit - involve wrestling with the deeper questions. A good graduate program will make you a better colonel, and perhaps, even better at being a captain...

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2014 5:22 PM

2014-12-13T17:22:25-05:00

Should be a requirement to make O-5 since you can earn one while attending Command and General Staff College and the other service schools.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2014 8:35 PM

2014-12-13T20:35:37-05:00

Not just "Yeah," but "Heck yeah!" We've got staff sergeants and sergeants first class working on masters degrees and I know of two sergeants major with doctorates. Our Army is investing in your intellect while it's keeping you.

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Dec 13 at 2014 10:09 PM

2014-12-13T22:09:28-05:00

I believe the current education system all over America is in desperate need of overhaul. We all know there are plenty of people who have degrees who are relatively incompetent, and that education--while helpful--does not adequately substitute for Base IQ. Until this is fixed, I see little need to spread the currently existing disease any further. After the fix, then sure.

As a former Marine Infantryman, I have to wonder about the same requirement for one rank lower, the Lieutenant Colonels, who are often in direct command of ground troops.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2014 10:16 PM

2014-12-13T22:16:24-05:00

This is nothing new to the Air Force. While the formal requirement may be new, the "unwritten rule" (at least for the medical/nurse/behavioral/biomedical service corps) was that you should have your masters degree before you make Major. To have a fighting chance to make O-6, they need to at least have a start on their doctorate. Pilots and MSCs seem to be excluded as they only need a detectable heart beat to get promoted.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2014 12:59 AM

2014-12-14T00:59:45-05:00

Just getting a degree to "have one" is not the right answer. Having an advanced degree (or multiple advanced degrees as some in this forum point out that they have earned) may actually hurt your reputation/degrade outside perceptions of you - depending on where you received the degree(s) and what it is in. It's not because you are "over qualified", it's because some of the degrees are odd and the institutions granting them don't have good reputations or high thresholds for awarding diplomas. Don't take my word for it. Check out the Bloomberg article: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=al8HttoCG.ps

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2014 2:11 PM

2014-12-14T14:11:56-05:00

I think it should be a requirement I am in a Quartermaster company and my 1SG has a masters as well as one of the E-5 squad leaders, and I should be complete with mines by the January 2015. So if enlisted soldiers can obtain one there is no reason officers cannot do the same. However for full disclosure I am receiving mines from an online institution, which is obviously not as prestigious as the Army War College or some of the other institutions that senior field grade officers have the opportunity to attend.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2014 2:30 PM

2014-12-14T14:30:17-05:00

I do not see this as unreasonable at all.

Frankly, it should be a goal of ever Officer to finish a graduate degree, especially in this competitive climate. It will not limit the potential of many high-performing officers in earning a reasonable retirement as an O-5. It would be impressive for an Army Officer to NOT have a degree by this point with options through ILE and SSC for the degrees, combined with ACS, Coop programs, etc.

Response by SA Harold Hansmann made Dec 14 at 2014 5:24 PM

2014-12-14T17:24:56-05:00

A masters degree doesn't give you wisdom nor common sense. Those two items should also be a requirement.

Response by SGT Aaron Dumbrow made Dec 14 at 2014 8:36 PM

2014-12-14T20:36:55-05:00

I think this makes sense. When I was in, the biggest mistake I made was not taking advantage of educational opportunities. Being a leader is tough, but going through any type of a college program, even one online or other programs can help with critical thinking and communication skills.

That isn't to say that education is the end all be all, but it seems to me education should be pushed at all levels not just the higher commissioned ranks. I remember when I was in, more NCO's were focusing on getting their education for promotion points, so it seems like the trend is there, but encouraging people to better themselves certainly can't hurt our armed forces.

Response by 1LT Ryan Millican made Dec 14 at 2014 10:36 PM

2014-12-14T22:36:43-05:00

Either way it's a good thing that COL takes more than 10 years, in most cases, to achieve, otherwise you'd be paying for it yourself, since FTA will only pay for a Masters after 10 years.........but hey hopefully while you're going after that Masters, you can get a decent paying job (if you're in the Guard), cause FTA won't pay if you're drawing your GI Bill. Wow......yep, makes since right, we want you to go to college but, we're gonna make it hard as hell for you to go on our dime. But correct me if I'm wrong, usually when you are a Major or LTC you get the chance to go to the General Staff College or the War College, and you get a Master's in something there, right?

Response by PO1 Ron Clark made Dec 15 at 2014 11:28 AM

2014-12-15T11:28:14-05:00

When you start to base the country's senior military leadership each time on some sort of college degree, then you will begin to chip away at the contributions that individuals make even though they dont have a masters degree. Did all of the successful Colonels, Generals and Admirals have a masters degree in WWI, WW2, Korea and Vietnam. I think not! Just because you have some type of pedigree from some university does not automatically mean that you are the best choice for Colonel. Many Officer (No offense) I have met with Masters Degree spent most of their time in a college classroom and , not on the battlefield or in practice for war, have little or no experience in dealing with real world situations on battlefield or in any real military theatre. College does not mean that they are the most experienced, most qualified or best candidate. This decision by the Air Force should be thought over carefully before you lose successful assets without Master Degrees which could make a difference in the overall welfare of our country's military.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2014 3:15 PM

2014-12-15T15:15:10-05:00

Because the War Colleges award masters degrees, and because completing the War College is essentially a requirement for promotion to O-6, it seems logical to make a masters degree a requirement for O-6.

As many have stated, just having a masters degree probably doesn't mean anything at all. Any joe off the street can go to a for profit or low-tier institution and essentially buy a masters degree.

In an era where most officers O-5 and above have a masters degree, and all O-6s get a masters degree from a War College, those masters degrees from for profit and low-tier institutions will become even less meaningful. Also, its likely that the masters degrees from War Colleges and the like will become less meaningful, as they will be standard issue.

The real discriminator will likely become a masters degree from a top-tier university; actually, that's probably already a discriminator.

As many have stated, colonels need to be strategic, educator thinkers. A masters degree in gym class isn't going to address that need. The War College master degrees will, because they focus on strategy. Those masters degrees one gets for constructive credit for military experience, not so much.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2014 2:10 AM

2014-12-16T02:10:30-05:00

Absolutely!

And I'll add:

Associate degree to make E6 (like to see this be an E5, but got to start somewhere)
Bachelors degree to make E9 (like to see this be an E8, but got to start somewhere)

Response by COL Rich McKinney made Dec 22 at 2014 2:02 PM

2014-12-22T14:02:28-05:00

Another way to look at it is "What is the core competency that we want in our senior leaders?" The most common answer to that is Leadership and Warfighting experience. In the narrow view, anything that takes an officer away from those core competencies (time required) detracts from his/her value.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Apr 22 at 2015 9:45 AM

2015-04-22T09:45:41-04:00

I think any higher education is a good thing. It should not be the ONLY thing that determines whether someone is qualified for a particular position or not. After all, I've met (had had to work around/under/through) some frightfully naive PhD and Masters degree holders.

Maybe a better policy would be to require a Masters in a related field? Wouldn't a degree in Aerospace or Business Management be more beneficial to a Wing Commander or Number Air Force Commander than say, a degree in music appreciation (and yes, that is an actual degree offered at the local college)?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 10:13 AM

2015-04-22T10:13:15-04:00

It makes sense. As you reach those higher levels of leadership where it is coming into lines of what the civilian world would equate to mass management, a higher level of education would allow you the ability to see on an equal level how those you "would be going against" see things (see COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM's post. It is sad, but there are several members of society that look down upon those who do not hold degrees at the same level that they do (Masters or Doctorates). No matter how much experience or knowledge you may have, they automatically feel you lesser because you only hold a bachelors.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 10:35 AM

2015-04-22T10:35:19-04:00

Promotion at least in the Navy is all about hitting the wickets and although it may vary from designator to designator as an 1110 (Shipdriver) you did not board for O-5 without a stint in Post Graduate School and although I have never been I am pretty sure you get your Masters while you are there. So maybe it is an unwritten rule but most Navy O-6s have their Masters.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Apr 22 at 2015 11:58 AM

2015-04-22T11:58:03-04:00

In my world, papers don't make a horse. I have no college degree, just a farrier's certification. I've made good money over the years. Over the years I've found three good uses for paper, 1-to read, 2-starting a fire, 3-wiping my a$$.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 22 at 2015 12:03 PM

2015-04-22T12:03:17-04:00

The Combined General Staff College allows MAJs to get their masters degree concurrently.

Response by BG David Fleming III made Apr 22 at 2015 12:11 PM

2015-04-22T12:11:24-04:00

Attention all 0-5's, as long as the arm services have the military education block on the Selection (Promotion) Board file for viewing, you'll need an advance degree to be competitive. Assignments are just as important. Without advanced education (Masters, multiple Masters, Doctorate) or a significant assignment with corresponding OER comments, your file will end up at the bottom of the pile! Enough said!

Response by SPC Angel Guma made Apr 22 at 2015 1:37 PM

2015-04-22T13:37:00-04:00

Fine, but I would just say, no blow off degrees. And any research they do should be military related, and allowed to be peer reviewed by other military members.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 7:02 PM

2015-04-23T19:02:47-04:00

Possessing a Masters Degree is a requirement of all field grades. It is a function of writing and communication skill. The writing requirements of a typical masters program strengthen staff officer capabilities to research and develop concise written products. Information Papers, briefings, decisions, memorandums, staff communication, and higher command level communication requires highly effective writers.

I've rated plenty officers in the O4 and O5 grades from all services. The officers without a masters degree tended to struggle to write effectively and concisely in a timely manner without significant coaching. By contrast, those officers with post graduate degrees tended to excel, catch on to SOPs, and develop better senior level communication.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 6:49 AM

2015-04-24T06:49:34-04:00

I see nothing wrong with expecting more of our personnel as they ascend the ranks. Yes, I think their should be solid criteria defining the requirement. Fur thing your education beyond a BS or a BA takes time, effort, and money. It shows dedication to self-improvement.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Jul 8 at 2015 12:55 PM

2015-07-08T12:55:57-04:00

Not required in the Army but not many O6 and above are there who don't have a Masters or a PhD

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2015 1:59 AM

2015-07-10T01:59:14-04:00

I believe my last LTC had two masters plus War College and he’s now a full Col. My current LTC is a federal judge. It just seems normal that senior leadership would attain higher levels of education and have careers that inspire what is possible of their troops. Just thoughts from the NG side of the house.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jul 15 at 2015 11:29 PM

2015-07-15T23:29:04-04:00

If there is time and the SM qualifies for TA, they should certainly gain more education. It will only put the SM ahead of their peers.

Response by MAJ Tex Hall made Dec 29 at 2015 10:12 AM

2015-12-29T10:12:09-05:00

Some folks get their MBWA (Masters By Walking Around) by getting off their butts and out of the office and learning where they are instead of taking time away from troops to go back to school. If Staff College gets you a Master's (even if you have to take a few more courses) then fine. But what I don't like to see is someone who makes O-6 just BECAUSE he got his Bachelor's, Master's, and PhD paid for by the Army by staying full time in school to get those degrees. You can't put someone like that back into a leadership position and expect him to understand what troops need in a leader when he's spent more than half of his uniform career in a classroom.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Jan 8 at 2016 9:49 AM

2016-01-08T09:49:17-05:00

Here is the thing...if you are going to make Col in the service, you will probably had to have completed some sort of advanced PME (Staff College, War College, Harvard Leadership Studies etc) which all provide Graduate degrees with a few more hours than the normal coursework requires. If the military wants you to be a Col then you will attend one of these schools more than likely. Furthermore, if it is a requirement and you want to make O-6, you will find a way to get there. As Col Smallfield stated, it gives you strategic credibility and shows mental discipline that you, even though you were busier than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest fighting wars, were able to prioritize it, put in the effort, stay up late and give up weekends as required to get it done, because it made you a better officer and leader.
Some talk about this as if it is a bad thing...it is good if for nothing else to set you up for retirement. You can't wear the uniform forever and just being a veteran will not get you the good job...It might get you and interview but a company that is hiring is going to look at your education and get an idea of what it can bring to them.

BOTTOM LINE: it is all goodness

Response by Maj George . made Feb 24 at 2017 2:42 PM

2017-02-24T14:42:29-05:00

Colonel? Really? When I was in (70s - 90s) it was an assumed requirement for promotion to Major! Look, regardless of your military ambitions, you're going to need (and will benefit from) a master's, even in civilian life. Just go get the damned thing already and be done with it! If you want to leave the military, having a master's is a HUGE advantage; if you want to stay in, you're going to need it, and it's easier to get the lower your rank because it takes away from family and job and social time, all of which tend to be more flexible and resiliant when you're young. Get it? Now, go get it.

Response by MSgt Michael Lane made Mar 25 at 2018 11:30 AM

2018-03-25T11:30:54-04:00

You damn near need a master's to make E-7 in the Airforce, I just assumed that all Col had one.

Response by PO2 Seth Carron made Mar 25 at 2018 11:33 AM

2018-03-25T11:33:19-04:00

As long as it's something useful I don't see why not.

Response by SGT Joshua Strup made Mar 25 at 2018 12:05 PM

2018-03-25T12:05:08-04:00

I'm going to say no. Since leaving the military, I've spent a lot of time in and around Academia. It does not take long to realize that "educated" does not mean "smart," "knowledgeable," or "wise." The Army should be looking to promote noncommissioned and commissioned officers that display tactical and technical expertise, commitment to the mission and their troops, and a passion to serve the people of the United States. Based upon my experience, I would rather serve under someone with a combat patch than someone with a graduate school diploma.

Response by Capt Jim McLaurin made Mar 25 at 2018 3:38 PM

2018-03-25T15:38:13-04:00

In CY92 numerous highly qyalified Captains with masters degrees were passed over for promotion to major during the horrible bloodbath that
CSAF McPeak termed "Rightsizing".

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2018 3:51 PM

2018-03-25T15:51:59-04:00

I am reminded of one of the best teachers I ever had. They asked him about the meaning of degrees and should an MS be paid more than a BS. This teacher had neither. He had a normal degree from a local college. His comment - I think there are too many Masters Degrees and not enough masters.

Response by MAJ Haris Balcinovic made Mar 25 at 2018 5:26 PM

2018-03-25T17:26:16-04:00

As COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM pointed out there are many benefits for a graduate level degree requirement. Two things.

1. Make it an earlier requirement (maybe for MAJ or LTC) We are always told that we should strive to continue our education, and I would offer that a vast majority of senior field grades already have a graduate degree (I had a LTC supervisor in Afganistan who had a PhD in structural engineering) A few years ago during my Captains Careers course about 25% of our class had graduate degrees. As s sidebar, I see a lot of comments about most officers get an opportunity to attain a masters (Master of Military Art and Science (MMAS) druing CGSC at Leavenworth, or getting one as a part of Senior Service College - my humble opinion is that those degrees are strictly geared for active duty personnel who intend to pursue a long career in active component. There is much better value added getting a degree from a public (or private) university or college, especially if you intend on retiring or you are a Reserve officer (MMAS doesn't do anything for me in my civilian career).

2. I would add that it should be a relevant degree not something that is from a fly-by-night school in an underwater basket weaving (regular basket weaving is a baccalaureate level degree, underwater is a graduate level). I'm not saying that having a masters degree in Liberal Arts doesn't have merit but for field grade officer something more substantial like an MBA, Public Policy, Foreign Relations, Education, STEM, etc. would be more beneficial for both military and civilian side (again this may be leaning more towards reserve officers)

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2018 7:45 PM

2018-03-25T19:45:51-04:00

Requiring civilian education is great, even for enlisted....I’d rather that than those ridiculous SSD’s!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2018 4:20 AM

2018-03-26T04:20:25-04:00

I came into the Army as a SPC w/ a master degree. Not that big of deal to me. Doesn’t make you a more effective leader.

Response by SFC John Ellis made Jun 13 at 2018 10:44 AM

2018-06-13T10:44:18-04:00

Going to the war college and learning how to win to battle with the service members one has under their command should be more important some college Masters degree that may not apply the person to be successful in accomplishing of a mission.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Nov 6 at 2018 9:17 AM

2018-11-06T09:17:42-05:00

I am an AF Officer and have two masters degrees. I got one of them because I needed to to get one for promotion., The next one came from PME. At the time, they weren't required but all things equal, the one withthe advanced degree got the nod. It goes back and forth as to whether or not it is required. However, IMHO I agree with Col Smallfield. It goes to credibility and mental discipline. But I think if the military is going to require the degree, and they should, it should be in their military discipline...strategic studies, logistics, intel etc...something useful to the military if we are going to promote you.

Response by CMSgt Marcus Falleaf made Feb 18 at 2022 8:42 AM

2022-02-18T08:42:40-05:00

I have been within 8 hours of a master's degree for 20-years. I chose to deploy overseas a couple times instead of finishing. Can't say I regret it.