Legal Question- Is it legal to mandate a signature from your subordinate?

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:28:30 -0500

All USAF reprimands require a signature, from the accused, that simply states you have been notified of the reprimand.

It isn't uncommon for the accused to refuse to sign if they find the accusation unfounded. Yet, the language written usually reads something like, "Your signature upon receipt of this letter is mandatory."

So... is it legally kosher to mandate a signature? Is it legal to refuse to sign?

Response by LTC Paul Heinlein made Nov 23 at 2014 4:42 PM

LTC Paul Heinlein — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:42:00 -0500

My personal take is if it requires my signature, then I have a choice to do it or not.

Normally there is a procedure where they can enter "the service member (Soldier/ Airman/ Sailor/ Marine) refused to sign".

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Nov 23 at 2014 4:42 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:42:22 -0500

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member for a conclusive answer you'll need to talk with a legal officer. I think LTC Paul Heinlein put it well. That being said, I cannot think of any circumstances where refusing to sign (an acknowledgment that you have been counseled) will improve your lot.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Nov 23 at 2014 6:09 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 18:09:18 -0500

I have never seen that verbiage on any LOC, LOA, or LOR I have run across.

Response by SGT Alicia Brenneis made Nov 23 at 2014 6:53 PM

SGT Alicia Brenneis — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 18:53:50 -0500

Soldiers can refuse to sign anything. No one can "order" them to sign anything since a signature is a legal acknowledgement of you. It can be annotated the soldier refused to sign something with a witnesses signature to verify they refused. I have seen soldiers refuse to sign event oriented counseling because the didn't agree with what was said. However a signature on the Army counseling's is just verifying the admin information is correct. Any disagreements should be written in the comment block provided.

Response by CPL Rick Stasny made Nov 23 at 2014 7:43 PM

CPL Rick Stasny — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 19:43:44 -0500

I have not experienced this in the military, but it is routine for the inmates to refuse to sign many things. I always note that they refused to sign and the have them initial that statement. It's the same thing, but I guess they think they are getting by.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 10:38 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 22:38:14 -0500

Well on counselings, there is a such thing as a rebuttal so they are actually signing that they were counselled on the subject BUT can do a rebuttal if they believe it to be unfair or wrong. Refusing to sign a counseling without doing a rebuttal does not help your case...

Response by SPC A.J. Simm made Nov 26 at 2014 10:04 PM

SPC A.J. Simm — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 22:04:49 -0500

Devon, I'm assuming this is similar to the Army's developmental counseling form (DA form 4856) The signature is there only to provide evidence that the accused has been read what is written on the form and understands it, not that they necessarily agree with it. Signing it does not provide legal evidence of guilt, nor can it be used to incriminate the accused (as self-incrimination in the military is illegal).

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 11:31 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 23:31:33 -0500

I have had individuals refuse to sign, though once I explained that it is only an acknowledgement of receipt and in anyway an admission of guilt. Followed by explaining that hey would have three duty days to submit a rebuttal to state their side, usually at that point they would sign it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 11:36 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 23:36:53 -0500

Usually - those kinds of documents can be annotated to state the recipient refused to sign without harm to the issuer. It's the same when you're served papers for a law suit. The "I didn't sign for it" defense will get you nowhere.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 11:43 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 23:43:35 -0500

I am not legally trained but I do not believe that you can force a Soldier to sign anything SSgt Private RallyPoint Member

When there is something negative I have another Leader present to sign stating that the Soldier was read the document and refused to sign. That way you as a Leader have a secondary Leader witness and the Soldier cannot state that they never saw the document.

Response by MSG Scott McBride made Feb 2 at 2015 11:44 PM

MSG Scott McBride — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 23:44:09 -0500

As you said, the signature does not mean concurs with the content of the counseling, the content should be truthful and accurate, it does mean individual acknowledges the session; they don't have to agree and most will not if they are defiant anyway. That's ok though, I have experienced this BS with senior NCOs in the past, just be sure to document "Soldier refused to sign" and if you can, try to have your supervisor present for the session; this can help you to avoid repeat idiocracy from the offender. You have the authority. Good luck!

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2015 3:21 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Feb 2015 15:21:04 -0500

Well SrA Garland, I believe that the Air Force Reprimands and the Army reprimands work very similarly. What the SM should actually be signing that initial time is the receipt of the reprimand, meaning that he is signing that it was given to him. From then the SM has 3 duty days to submit a rebuttal (I believe that is the timeline for your reprimands) to the initiator of the reprimand.

You can attempt to explain to the SM that he is not signing that he is agreeing with anything contained in the reprimand, merely that he is signing to say that he has received it.

If the SM still refuses to sign in the signature spot the SM was supposed to sign should be written "SM refused to acknowledge receipt" and the date of refusal.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 3 at 2015 3:30 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Tue, 03 Feb 2015 15:30:23 -0500

If they refuse to sign, I was always instructed to pull someone else in to witness and annotated "Said Named Marine Refused to Sign." with the witnesses & my own signature acting as the acknowledgement of receipt.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 3:28 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 15:28:48 -0400

I ran into this issue many times. Mostly with an Airman that thought that somehow his/her failure to sign would stop the process. On the advice of legal we simply wrote "Member refused to sign" with a date/time and witness signature.

Similarly we would use a statement like SMSgt Thomas stated above "Your signature does not constitute and admission of guilt nor your concurrence...." but if they still refused we would go with above.

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made Apr 14 at 2015 8:12 PM

PO2 Skip Kirkwood — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 20:12:35 -0400

Legal advice should come only from people authorized to GIVE legal advice. In the military, that means a member of the JAG corps, or a civilian who has been admitted to the bar. Otherwise.....

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 5:43 AM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 05:43:46 -0400

it is your right not to sign anything put in your face, whether or not it is a wise choice is a different argument completely