Leadership Dilemmas: If you were me, what would you have done? (PART 1)

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 09:09:48 -0500

To all RallyPoint members: I faced this real Leadership Dilemma as a new O-1 in my first unit. Suddenly, I had a second chance to fix the mistake I made. What would you have done if you were me? (PART 1)

// REAL SCENARIO //

“Sergeant Jones got arrested again last night,” my commander told me with an unnerving stare. In the two weeks since my joining the unit, SGT Jones had been arrested for domestic violence, reported late multiple times, and flunked a basic job competency examination. As SGT Jones’s supervisor, I was responsible for remediating his self-destructive behavior and providing actionable, hands-on guidance to him.

However, instead of leading SGT Jones, I made the mistake of deferring to Alpha Company’s Senior NCOs who, in this case, had known SGT Jones for a long time and just wanted him out of the unit. No counseling or remedial actions had been documented. The Senior NCOs began shaping their plan to whisk SGT Jones away to a different unit, thereby removing the problem as opposed to tackling it.

Because I was the newest and most junior officer in Alpha Company, I felt pressured to follow the path of least resistance and therefore didn’t assert myself as a leader – a mistake that meant SGT Jones did not receive the leadership attention he deserved. Unsurprisingly, his misconduct continued.

My commander called me back into his office and told me to tell him what I wanted to do: send SGT Jones to the other unit, or something else?

** RallyPoint members: if you were me, what would you have done? **

//

Tag: SGM Matthew Quick 1SG Steven Stankovich SFC Mark Merino SSG Laureano Pabon LTC Jason Strickland SSG Robert Burns SSG Scott Williams SSG V. Michelle Woods CPT Private RallyPoint Member Col Private RallyPoint Member Capt Brandon Charters SSgt Gregory Guina CMSgt James Nolan 1SG Private RallyPoint Member SSG Private RallyPoint Member 1LT John Martin TSgt Joshua Copeland 1SG Private RallyPoint Member SFC William Swartz Jr SFC Private RallyPoint Member Cpl Private RallyPoint Member SFC Private RallyPoint Member SGT Thomas Lucken SGT Richard H. MAJ Private RallyPoint Member SGM Charles Brainard CPT Gregory Wagoner CMSgt James Nolan SFC Private RallyPoint Member SCPO Private RallyPoint Member MSG Wade Huffman SSG Private RallyPoint Member SFC Private RallyPoint Member SPC Brian Aranda Cpl Private RallyPoint Member 1SG Private RallyPoint Member SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member MAJ Private RallyPoint Member SFC William Swartz Jr SFC Private RallyPoint Member 1LT John Martin A1C Nathanial Snyder MSgt Allan Folsom

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Dec 21 at 2014 9:11 AM

Capt Richard I P. — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 09:11:51 -0500

CPT Aaron Kletzing step one: talk to the soldier.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 9:19 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 09:19:19 -0500

Explain your dilemma to the commander: The unit's senior NCOs want to shuffle SGT Jones along to another unit, but that doesn't seem right. Counseling, professional help (psychological counseling). and close monitoring of SGT Jones are called for. Give SGT Jones one more chance to prove himself.

Talk to SGT Jones - with his NCO support chain and possibly even the commander present - explain that he is nearing the end of his rope and is close to being chaptered. Determine if he has some problem that the military can help with. Find out (ask) if SGT Jones can explain this behavior.

Then, give SGT Jones one more chance. Direct the NCO support chain (with your help) to set up SGT Jones for success -- required appointments, etc.

Monitor the situation closely. Counsel SGT Jones (with NCO chain present) at least weekly until things settle down or it's time for SGT Jones to be chaptered.

Document everything in writing.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Dec 21 at 2014 9:32 AM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 09:32:12 -0500

Thank you for your responses thus far. I remember back at that time being really unsure of myself and nervous to stand up to what the SNCOs were wanting to do. I will respond in a few days with what the outcome was, and what I chose to do and how it turned out.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Dec 21 at 2014 9:31 AM

SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 09:31:04 -0500

CPT Aaron Kletzing Sir, transferring SGT Jones moves the problem, doesn't solve it. Chaptering SGT Jones out, while an option later, only moves the problem from the Army and into the civilian population. In my opinion, we owe a service member treatment options, counseling, and support as no other organization could provide. Engage faith based conversations, a Command directed psychological evaluation, and have a domestic violence counselor from Social Work Services contact his spouse or significant other. Confine to quarters (BEQ) with an escort and a lawful order to remain on post, in quarters, duty location, or dining facility. In my opinion the response must be swift and multi-faceted in order to obtain the most favorable results.

Once SGT Jones is reasonably adjusted, introduced to the VA medical system, and upon determinate results from all of the other efforts, a final decision may be made on this NCOs future. BLUF: Hold off on punitive action until a probable cause for his actions may be determined.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 9:38 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 09:38:11 -0500

I said other because stepping up as his leader is a secondary thing. The first most alarming thing I read was: "...Senior NCOs...had known SGT Jones for a long time and just wanted him out of the unit. No counseling or remedial actions had been documented." NO COUNSELING after all the misbehaviors by the NCO.

Granted, knowing what I know now as a retired experienced NCO would be much different than a brand new, young inexperienced 2LT. Regardless, I believe the correct course of action would definitely be to chapter the NCO out BUT there are steps to follow in order to do so IF the NCO is not willing to correct himself. In addition, transferring the NCO to another unit is the absolute worst decision to make. Passing along a problem just takes up more time and energy for others who had nothing to do with the problem itself.

The first thing I would have done is speak to my Commander and get some guidance/mentoring in how best to approach the issue. While the bulk of the issue is the NCO himself, part of the problem is the lack of leadership by the senior NCOs in not properly counseling the NCO let alone getting him to mental health (maybe?), marriage counseling, and anger management class (maybe?). There has to be something going on deep beneath that is causing SGT Jones to lose focus on his job (failing a basic competency test???) as well as being late multiple times. The senior NCOs also need to be counseled by yourself, possibly the CO, and maybe even given an NCOPD by the CSM. While NCOs are the backbone and enforcers, we do make mistakes too and need leadership too. Sometimes things inadvertently get personal and we internalize the problem thinking we can totally handle it ourselves. Sorry, but we ALL don't live in a little box. We have to rely on others, at times, through their perspective and experience.

Just my 3.57 cents worth. Looking forward to Part 2.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Dec 21 at 2014 9:42 AM

LTC Paul Labrador — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 09:42:54 -0500

Let's address your original plan: Transfer him. Would you, as a PL, want a problem soldier dumped off on you? Not likely, so why do that to one of your peers?

First thing you need to do is speak with this soldier and see what the heck is going on. There might be issues there that you can address yourself (through your senior NCOs). There may also be issues there that may need professional counseling. If this NCO was previously a good soldier, sudden misbehavior is a strong red flag that something is wrong.

As far as remediation plans, yeah, you don't necessarily need to do it yourself directly, but you need to meet with the senior NCOs that you are going to delegate this to and create a clear gameplan. Make no mistake, while they may be doing a lot of the hands-on remediation, you still need to supervise it. The mistake a lot of young leaders make is that they don't delegate properly. They cede responsibility.

Finally, if this Soldier is simply a POS, then yes, maybe a chapter needs to be started. But you can't determine that until you've had a chance to assess the situation.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Dec 21 at 2014 9:49 AM

1SG Steven Stankovich — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 09:49:20 -0500

Hindsight is always 20/20 sir and it is far easier to say "do the hard right over the easy wrong" than to actual do it. Rehabilitative transfers are always a last resort. I know this has been echoed already. It is very disappointing that there was not a rather large counseling packet on SGT Jones, along with all the COAs that have already been worked (ie ASAP, Family Advocacy, Behavioral Health, Chaplain, etc). What SGT Jones a problem child since he arrived to the unit or was there an incident that began his downward spiral? Questions like that should have been asked to ascertain the rest of the story.

It is difficult to be the new guy/gal and go against the recommendations of those who have been in a unit, especially Seniors. However, like I said in the beginning, hindsight being 20/20, I fell that explaining to the CDR that you needed more time to gather all of the facts of the situation before you made a decision should have been the call.

I voted "other" because I feel that as a Leader, it is our job to find out the root of the problem before deciding on a COA. SGT Jones may have underlying problems that need to be tended to. This may not rehabilitate him in a way that he is retainable, sadly that ship may have sailed, but it may be what he needs to ensure that he is led back onto the right path. Soldiers are people and we have a responsibility to accomplish the mission and look out for their well-being.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 10:31 AM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 10:31:21 -0500

I think that one of the hardest things to do when you first arrive to a unit is to be forced into making a decision like that. With that being said though, I think that looking from the outside in and knowing that if I were "SGT Jones" I would have wanted the guidance that my SNCOs and Officers could provide. We all need guidance, from the PVTs straight out of IET to the 4 Stars sitting on the JCS. There is not a day that goes by where we do not learn something from someone. I think that one of the worst things that we as leaders try to do is force people out of the Service, if, like you said, there was nothing on paper, then this is a problem that will persist, and instead of helping it is just made worse. I am not trying to say that you did the wrong thing Sir, because I do not know what I would have done if I were in the same situation.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 10:35 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 10:35:59 -0500

I have always been of the school of thought that a leader should always attempt to do what they can in order to bring the Soldier back on track and not pass them off to someone else. I have seen many turn in to valuable members of the team and some you just can't fix but you have to make the effort.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Dec 21 at 2014 10:36 AM

SGT Richard H. — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 10:36:11 -0500

First, deferring him to the SNCOs wasn't necessarily the wrong move, though in this case it doesn't seem the best move either. Unfortunately, you couldn't have known that until after they didn't take care of business, as was the case here. Is there an issue with the SNCO leadership in this unit? To be honest, they appear a bit lazy in this description. The SNCOs desire to transfer him to another unit accomplishes nothing more here than making SGT Jones someone else's problem, effectively only accomplishing "sweeping him under the rug".

The right thing (IMHO) in this case is for someone to try to get to the bottom of the problem, and then try to help SGT Jones solve it. Since the NCOs haven't done it, this is where the LT comes in. Yes, there is a such thing as NCO business, but Officer business is to see that NCO business is being done. Note that I said HELP him solve it. You can't do it for him. Truth be told, you might not be able to help him either, but you have to try. Sometimes help comes in the form of (or accompanied by) some punitive measures as well. If chaptering him is the answer, that will be an answer for later after all attempts to solve the problem have been exhausted and well documented.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 10:41 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 10:41:35 -0500

Hard to say without being there... But, I would lead towards: The NCO's who know him best have probably been around long enough to know what the guy is like, or what he has been doing for the most part. Yes they may have some sort of issue with him on a personal level, but that sometimes comes from ALWAYS having to deal with someone's dipsh*t actions on a repetitive basis. So, having been given "trouble making" Soldiers before. I usually like to give them a fresh start and see what "I" can do to help them out, to become a better Soldier etc. Being a new face they might behave or perform differently etc. If they continue their actions and do not improve, then I would have no other option than to believe "the hype" and take others accounts as truth, instead of just rumors and personal opinion of them etc. So, once some time was given to the Soldier and they appear to not be improving it would all be documents with counselings because you have no case if you have nothing on paper. Options such as moving them, or UCMJ/ CH would be on the table for me. BUT, if you move them, and you KNOW they have been given more than enough chances to improve and they do not try, what exactly is ANOTHER chance for improvement going to do, other than drop this burden on someone new? I would have to look towards a CH (since this is all hypothetically). Or you could just not allow re-enlistment and let them out in that manner. And, you also have to see what his performance was in the past. Years prior etc, he may be having some serious issues at home that are causing this performance. This is why I say it is hard to say without actually having the situation occur.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 11:03 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 11:03:32 -0500

SGT Jones is exhibiting signs of a very large problem. The kind that would concern me for the welfare of the Soldier and others. He has already (allegedly) attacked someone in his family - the domestic violence cited. Reporting late strongly indicates that he finds his livelihood unimportant compared to whatever excuses he might have. His poor performance indicates a lack of focus.

My (admittedly non-doctor, but very experienced) mind says that he has a declining relationship with his significant other, and that has bled into sleeplessness and a lack of attention to his responsibilities. He is about 70% of the way down the path of self-destruction, and crushing him as some might suggest may well send him over the edge. What he needs is to talk to two people he trusts, one in the Chain-of-Command who can relay information and strategize with the commander to find a workable course of action once the facts are known; and one who is a trained professional who can confirm or deny my assessment that his support system is breaking down and he is unable to cope.

This man needs lifelines. He needs a way to rectify his domestic living situation, or cope with a change that is probably unwanted. He is going to need support to keep off the radar for things the command can't tolerate and still have good order and discipline - a buddy to make sure he gets to where he is supposed to be, but not a probation officer. He needs to be reminded, perhaps forcefully, that he is a Soldier and a member of a team, and that while the team can support him when he needs to take a knee, they need him to carry his pack.

I think he can't see beyond a very sharp, localized facet of his life being in trouble, and is allowing that to affect him in other ways. I have seen it dozens of times in my time in this man's Army. This is something his brothers can help with, but he has to find it to want to help himself too. A team effort is in order here.

Lastly, a call will have to be made by the commander on how much energy and resources he wants to expend on one Soldier when he has a unit to take care of. He has to be prepared to make the hard decision to cut sling load if this goes beyond his capabilities or detracts from unit performance. Then he will need to chapter Jones.
Until then, he has an opportunity to build his team through a execution of a carefully considered plan to care for one of their own. There is a real possibility that through success or even failure here, his unit will be better for the effort.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Dec 21 at 2014 11:06 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 11:06:30 -0500

I would have tried to get to the root cause of SGT Jones's issues, determine for myself if there was some underlying problem that required behavioral treatment or if SGT Jones was merely a bag of crap that had been allowed to skate by. I would also have discussed the issues with the PSG and SL for SGT Jones and find out what, if anything had been done by them to "fix" the issues, and why there was not documentation for any of the problems exhibited prior to my arrival. I would then have determined the best CoA based on all the discussions, present them to the PSG, 1SG and CO in an effort to do what is right not only for the unit but for SGT Jones as well. Far too often it is easier to just "cut bait" and begin the paperwork to dismiss SGT Jones from the Army than it is to actually dig into the issues and figure out exactly wtf is going on. I know from experience as a SR NCO that this is the case, between accomplishing our daily missions, "baby sitting" problem Soldiers and balancing all this with ensuring that one doesn't neglect our family and/or personal issues, it is a tough decision at times. At the end of the day, or at the end of it all, we have to ask ourselves, "Did I/we, do what was best all the way around? For the Soldier as well as the Army, were my actions the best that they could have been for all involved?"

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Dec 21 at 2014 11:23 AM

PO2 Corey Ferretti — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 11:23:28 -0500

We had a troop that got sent to us and shortly after found out they rushed him out so they did not have to deal with his continued misconduct. We tried to correct him at our level and at the upper level. but it seems by the time we got him he was to far gone. He ended getting discharged due to the pattern of misconduct. It stinks because had his initial unit probably taken the time to guide him it might of turned out differently.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 11:31 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 11:31:16 -0500

I don't understand why the Army refuses to treat men like adults. I was the foreman on many construction crews and a manager in many restaurants. If people screwed up, it was not my job to "rehab him". My job was to ensure work was done efficiently and we as a company were safe and made money. The Army spends so much money and time and resources on people who either don't care to be here anymore, or don't care enough about themselves to do the right thing. People forget that the Army is a JOB, not a nursery. People get fired everyday from their job for behavior or performance. Why is the Army any different? It drives me insane how soft we as a nation has become.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Dec 21 at 2014 11:35 AM

CMSgt James Nolan — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 11:35:13 -0500

So, what you have is an NCO in a tailspin. He has massive home troubles that have spilled onto his Military career. The easy route that the NCOs are taking is remove the problem. You are the brand new Officer and it gets thrust on you.

You as a young leader have an awesome opportunity to stop in and show leadership, build trust, improve morale, and earn LOYALTY from your new unit. You also have the opportunity to be just one more of what they already have. Choice is yours. (Insert caveat here: If he has been criminally charged, there may be nothing to do but stand by him and offer some support)

So, I would grab ahold of his supervisors and 1stSgt and hear exactly what all they had to say regarding all past performance and issues of late. Find out exactly what discipline has been handed out and generally get myself up to speed on the situation. THEN, I would go have my sit down with the Commander. It sounds as if he is giving me the option of stay/go, so I would tell him to give me a shot at STAY. If we can save the Sgt, we give him a rehabilitative shot, we send a message to the Troops that "you matter" and I as the new LT show that I am here. Also, if we can save him, you will wind up with a NCO who will have a broad "I have dealt with issues" base to draw on down the road.

Saving him will be tough, and will take some focus, a lot of work and a lot of assistance from the NCOs, who I fully believe would step in and do the right thing. And....as the new LT, you need to listen to what they have to say about the Sgt with the issues and explain what it is you want to do, or you run the risk of "disregarding your NCOs".

Personally, for me: If I can fix it, square it away and keep him, I would prefer it. If he is criminal, and/or chooses not to fix, then Hasta La Vista.

Response by SPC(P) Micah Lavigne made Dec 21 at 2014 11:35 AM

SPC(P) Micah Lavigne — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 11:35:33 -0500

Sir, While I may not be a Commissioned Officer, I have learned some insights of leadership. The first is that to lead is to serve, the second is being a leader means doing the things no one else is willing or wants to do. I can only imagine your dilemma. The easy way out will be to kick him out. It's no longer your problem but the problem remains. And throughout history there has always been people out there who want to point the finger at the Government and its affiliates. If I was in your shoes I would talk with him heart to heart see what's going on recommend him to go for counseling maybe he is afraid of a stigma for seeking help. If he refuses recommend a command referral on him. Send him to the chaplain and have him and his wife get help through Victim's Advocacy. While they are quick to find and crucify Domestic Violence, they also have resources to help the family cope and build healthier relations which in turn increases combat readiness if it succeeds for the NCO is not fighting two fronts his Career and his family. And if it fails then you can recommend a chapter with a clear conscience that you and the Army has done everything for him. I speak from experience I had a hard time coming back from Iraq (I am a reclass) and if not for leadership that refused to let me continue on my path of self destruction and got me the help I needed who knows what would happen?
A leader is one that will stand by his men and the needs of the mission. You stand with your men you will be amazed at the results.

As for your NCOs. I am not an NCO but I believe in the Creed like any NCO. The NCO ranks is truly the backbone of the army. While most in the Commissioned ranks gained their leadership from Military Schools an NCO gained leadership from experience and is always the advisor to the commissioned and their support for the mission. And an NCO who tarnishes his(or her) standing also brings discredit to the Corps. It goes against the creed. In the end Sir it is entirely your decision everyone here is advising you on their thoughts and may you make the right decision for him, his family and your Troops.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Dec 21 at 2014 11:43 AM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 11:43:39 -0500

I am going with other... You need to step up as a leader, but whether he can improve is debatable.
You have a problem child who has had someone covering for him for a while and he's finally burned every bridge in the unit, except you and the Commander... No one wants to do the paperwork, because starting now, means that they haven't been doing it all along. Then there is also their own potential culpability in his decline (late work schedules, nights out with the squad/plt, or that someone else in the unit is sleeping with his wife).
Regardless, as others have stated, you know he is a problem, and as a leader, you can't pass the buck. Fix him or get rid of him yourself. Your dilemma as an officer, is that any illegal activities (UCMJ violations) you discover as a routine counseling sessions have to be reported to the Commander and preferred for an investigation or charges (and especially if there are allegations that the PSG is sleeping with his wife). Unfortunately, at this point, you are the only person who can hear him without filtering any of the unit's toxic history from any follow on reports. The Commander may suspect something, but needs you (the new guy) to find the details.
This Soldier's faith in his leadership and the Army values may already be well beyond redemption, so it really falls on you to make sure, as the CDR's representative, to find out what broke this Soldier and remove it from his unit and see that this Soldier is provided as gracious an exit from the service as possible.

Keep in mind, this is just one scenario of a Soldier broken by a toxic unit. This Soldier may simply be irredeemable, but someone at some point thought he was NCO material. There may be medical reasons for his decline as well, TBI, PTSD, etc. Also a good reason to see him get help and find a gracious exit from service.
Still, he is going to be a leadership challenge, he is accustomed to being left to his own devices without repercussions for bad behavior. He will be reluctant to speak honestly because of personal ties in the unit, burned bridges or not. He will be reluctant and resistant to help because of the stigma associated with counseling/therapy/diagnosis. The only thing you have going for you at this point is the leverage of the latest DUI.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 12:32 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 12:32:43 -0500

First I will address what should be done as a new leader. Find out why SGT Jones is in the predicament that he is. It was not a mistake in my opinion deferring to the SNCO's to gather information and/or formulate a plan of action. As a young LT, you would look to those more experienced SNCO's in your unit to provide guidance and trusted them knowing that they should have provided the best guidance possible, to make an informed decision in developing courses of action. The lack of trust, seems apparent, whether with these SNCOs or within the unit as a whole.

There should have been counselings and not just counselings piled one on top of the other to make a case in order to get rid of someone. There should have been a plan of action, follow-thru and follow-up for SGT Jones. What are the identifiers? Post deployment issues? Financial? marital?

Whisking SGT Jones to another unit is not a solution it only complicates the issue. Now you've made it someone else's problem, how is this fair to his new unit, more so how is then even fair to SGT Jones. The issue hasn't been addressed why SGT Jones's behavior has affected his work performance and at home.

As a leader, this LT took the low road, the easy way out. As leaders, we have to make decisions and if we can't make decisions, we shouldn't be leaders. We are all going to make good and bad decisions, and we need to learn from all decisions we make .

This is troublesome for me as it leads me to believe the type of leader this LT is or may become. It speaks volumes about the leadership in this unit. Is this a one time mistake in this LT's leadership process? Even more troubling the leadership actions or lack of from these SNCOs.

Everyone is accountable as well as responsible. If your Soldiers don’t believe in you, you’ll have a tough road ahead. As leaders were supposed to:

Provide direction, Provide purpose, Provide motivation

A leader provides direction by:

Knowing and maintaining standards, Setting goals, Planning, Making decisions and solving problems, Supervising and evaluating

Am I to just naive and old-school to believe in this still? Is this still taught or instilled in our Soldiers? Or is it just words written in some manual that we just use when it's convenient?

Let's take SGT Jones's issue to the extreme? What if this young NCO decides to leave a suicide note or uses today's social media and email and blast's out his intentions and follows through? What then? Do we lay blame on the Soldier for his/her actions because of the issues they faced, paint them as weak and problematic? Who in leadership is accountable then? Who will have the intestinal fortitude to step up and take the high road and say "I take responsibility" or does it just get buried and forgotten?

Perhaps maybe I am too naive to think, even in retirement, that every Soldier is deserving of outstanding leadership, mentorship and training. All I know is leadership failed this young NCO. No, I don't excuse the NCO either for lack of ability to seek help. But in some cases, some Soldiers don't seek help because perceptions & attitudes are still prevalent in some form of stigma.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Dec 21 at 2014 12:58 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 12:58:54 -0500

Transferring a SM is rarely the answer. A good leader never dumps their problem on another unit. I have seen a transfer after a court martial found the member was acquitted. This was to give the member a fresh start without the shadow over him from unit members that testified against him and the Sr Leadership that pushed for the court martial in the first place.

While you SNCO advised you of a course of action, you are not obligated to follow them, just take them as advisement. If you disagreed, you have a Commander to advise you as well.

The biggest thing is did YOU sit down and talk with the individual....just that simple task gives you so much more info to accurately determine how best to handle the issue. Rarely things are cookie cutter.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 12:56 PM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 12:56:32 -0500

I would have pulled SErgeant Jones in my office to find out what was going on. It is imperative as leaders to know the issues that our members are facing, unfortunately Sergeant Jones had already had multiple infractions and it seemed that the process may have came too late. FACT FIND it's an important part of leading. This would have also gave you the ammunition needed to make your decision and gave the Commander the warm and fuzzy that you as the leader had a good handle on things.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 1:28 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 13:28:04 -0500

Sending problem Soldiers down the road to the next unit is the organizational equivalent of the Blue Falcon. The tough nut to crack isn't the E5 (as a 2LT, your role in mentoring a guy like that is more for your development than for his), your challenge is with the senior NCOs. Penetrate their ranks, get their perspective, get their buy-in, or work other channels to get them out of the decision process. Your commander needs to be in the center of this.

Response by Capt Brandon Charters made Dec 21 at 2014 1:38 PM

Capt Brandon Charters — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 13:38:28 -0500

Great case study CPT Aaron Kletzing. As a brand new LT, you can really never plan for this scenario. Throughout officer training we're all told, "Listen to your NCOs and everything will be alright." There really isn't enough talk about relying on your instincts and being cautious because not everyone will uphold the highest integrity. In this case, because of the lack of documentation, a full debrief of the soldier's background is needed from those that are trying to 'whisk him away'. In my opinion this is a 'team problem.' "We let one of our own break from the formation and no one really had the leadership to help fix the problem." Every missed step needs to be uncovered and accountability needs to be placed on those that avoided the proper documentation and discipline from the start. Once the full story is out there, as the leader, you lay out the new expectations for everyone involved. If this isn't corrected with the NCOs right away, there is huge risk of this happing again. Once you have all the facts and everyone on the same page, it will be easier to lay out the proper recourse.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 2:02 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 14:02:05 -0500

I think this is your chance to see what type of leadership style you have. Sit down with him and see what's going on in his life. You might just find the problem. That way you can start counseling him, make sure you document everything and go from there. All in all you do service to him and yourself in becoming a leader because nobody likes being given a s@!tbag soldier.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 2:24 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 14:24:11 -0500

This is a tough call, and continued acts of disobedience and lack of fallowing guided instruction can not be accepted. First, You should have tried to lead him with specific checks set along the way. If he still continued down his path that he he should be prosesed for discharge.

Response by SMSgt Judy Hickman made Dec 21 at 2014 2:30 PM

SMSgt Judy Hickman — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 14:30:27 -0500

So I've dealt with a variety of people like this and the first step as a new supervisor is always to step up and lead him and give him a chance to improve. The statement "He can improve" maybe an oversimplification of where this guy is at, but sending him to another unit is not the solution we should be striving for. What is his history, what kind of documentation has done, what have we done to stop the behavior and/or improve the behavior?
To often we want to let the other guy handle the issues, because it is easier or they have more experience. The guy will hopefully appreciate your interest and be honest with you about what is going on and then you can make a decision on how to move forward. Otherwise you are just taking a whole lot of peoples opinions, with no first hand knowledge.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 2:47 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 14:47:03 -0500

The "NCO" does not belong in our force. We have Master Sergeants being QSP for basically being in an over strength MOS. We must keep quality! I understand this SM may have problems however, we can see that he gets help on his way out of the Army. We can all use our skill sets as leaders and attempt to rehab this Soldier. This type of leadership and attention will be time consuming. So why spend 90% of your time with less than 10% of your Soldiers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 2:57 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 14:57:11 -0500

As a leader, it is your responsibility to know your Soldiers, and their problems. As a 2LT however, you are limited in how much you can do UNLESS you step up immediately and take charge (this has to do with the perception that 2LTs do not know what to do - and they usually don't...)

The best way to handle this (IMHO) is to gather the senior most NCOs. Discuss with them the facts (The five W's and H):

1) How long has this been a problem?
2) Did SGT Jones at any point during his tenure there, perform well before he started having problems, or has he always had issues?
3) If he used to perform well, what has changed in his life?
4) If not, why has he not been demoted, or chaptered?
5) Who is closest to SGT Jones?
6) Who dislikes him the most?
7) Why has he never been counseled for his performance?
8) Does he need referral to Psychiatric or Mental Health, or does he need counseling of any sort (Family, Anger Management, Financial, etc.)
9) Has he EVER deployed to a combat zone, and if so, in what capacity (Fobbit, Door Kicker, Secret Squirrel, etc.)
10) If he has deployed, what did he see, do, have happen to him?
11) Is there a possibility he is either abused (by his spouse - hey it happens and it's a NO Sh*t isssue) or was sexually assaulted (also a big issue if it ever happened, either when he was a kid or adult)?

These are just a few of the questions that come to mind that should be asked.

Advise your senior NCOs that they are not to discuss the situation with anyone outside of the office (esp. juniors)

Then call SGT Jones into the office, and counsel him on his performance FIRST, and that it WILL NOT be tolerated. Make sure he understands that his life is in his hands at this point. You should have your most senior leader in that office with you, as well as his first line supervisor. They need to see that you are taking charge, and that you are not going to tolerate BS from SGT Jones.

Start digging into why he is acting this way. If he has a personal problem, advise him that while you may not have experienced his particular problem there are people who have, and he needs counseling or help.

Advise him that you will help him if he wants it, and that you will help him find help if he'd rather that.

Also advise him that if he continues his behavior, you will be forced to recommend him for Chapter (regardless of whether he is seeking help or not).

Ask him if his situation is such that he would feel more comfortable being in the barracks (esp. if he's considering divorce).

Last, DO NOT ship him off to another unit.

I have always hated it when a unit ships off a bad Soldier just because they don't have the leadership ability to fix the problem, and instead try to "give the Soldier" another chance - thing is - once you are labeled a screw up and sent packing, that label follows that Soldier to the new unit and they still wind up being judged based on that label. Deal with the problem at the lowest level possible, and if it can't be fixed, then get that Soldier out.

I could go much more in depth on this, but I think you've got the gist on this...

Response by SSG Peter Muse made Dec 21 at 2014 3:05 PM

SSG Peter Muse — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 15:05:28 -0500

My response might be too old school and maybe not doable these days. It's also a shotgun answer to a pretty deep problem but here it goes: Looks like there are plenty of UCMJ options here; AR15 with restriction. But to remediate I would have him running the extra duty program, remedial PT and any other activity that put him in a highly accountable position where time and responsibility are priorities. Inspect his gear, his shop, his troops, his weapon, his vehicle and whatever else he is responsible for until it hurts and until he gets it right. All accomplished on the left and the right side of the normal duty day. Get counseling for the spouse to find out whats going on and maybe move that butt into soldier quarters. This takes time and dedication of fellow NCOs but it might be worth it.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 3:55 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 15:55:54 -0500

Although it would be the easy step to ship him off to another unit. This Sgt has some large luggage. First being arrested for domestic violence is very worrisome. First I think I would try to talk to him one on one to see if he would open up. Hopefully in the discussion you could come up with a course of action to correct the problem. Then I would meet with his senior NCO's and him to discus the course of action. And in a perfect world the problem would correct itself. If the problem continues then I believe paperwork should be started for discharge. Also maybe bring in a phychiatrist to dig deeper into the problem to try and salvage this soldier.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Dec 21 at 2014 4:00 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 16:00:29 -0500

NEVER pass your problems to another unit. Face them and fix them, or face them and after all avenues are expended discharge or punish as appropriate. Remember leadership challenges are not only directed toward the affected Soldier, but are training opportunities for leaders.
***Edit***
Some leadership challenges may include rehabilitative transfers if the situation is a possible personality conflict, a clean slate approach, this situation doesn't appear to be that case.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Dec 21 at 2014 4:15 PM

SSG V. Michelle Woods — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 16:15:13 -0500

The first thing I noticed was the title "SGT", which, to me, means holding him to a higher standard than a junior troop with less time in service. However, even leaders need leadership so I appreciate your concern for SGT Jones.

Let's give the folks who promoted this soldier to the rank of SGT a little credit here. At some point SGT Jones must have displayed the mentality of knowing to be at work on time and to not get physical during confrontations (that is of course assuming he was convicted).

In a situation that doesn't require immediate action, I would take the time to learn as much about the situation as possible from all parties. I would then react.

As for the absence of remedial training or counseling, do you really believe this Army philosophy that every single issue requires that much overkill? Hold SGT Jones accountable for his actions. Period. In addition to holding him accountable, if you believe he shows potential for fixing himself, then get him out of the unit. It is unfair and nearly impossible for him to recover in that same battalion.

Just my humble opinion sir.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 4:45 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 16:45:55 -0500

Every person is human.... and have potential to make mistakes. No one is above a hardship. If there has been no history of problems, then it is a leaders responsibility to try to help the subordinate. Ask questions, try and get to the cause of his actions. Since there was no history of remedial action or counseling, it seems likely that the other NCO's would choose to neglect their own responsibility, and would rather send him to someone else, or discharge him. That is a final resort, not an initial resort. Can this soldier improve? I don't know, but who would know if they don't make an attempt to lead? Sometimes a discharge is necessary, and I am completely for discharging soldiers unfit for service, but again, make the effort to lead, else you too become unfit for service

Response by SSgt David OGrady made Dec 21 at 2014 5:01 PM

SSgt David OGrady — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 17:01:29 -0500

Sir, I was in a similar to your situation. I was a new NCO in a unit I was given a problem airman. He had been in so much trouble. The senior NCO wanted me to kick him out. I looked through his records found nothing in them. I decided to bring im to my shift to watch him closely. After a week, I noticed all he need was a little supervision. I gave him the supervision and the last time I talked to him, he was an E-9. so, I believe with the right leadership most individuals can be led to improve.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 5:42 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 17:42:42 -0500

First, there needs to a formal counseling for what he has done....being arrested, late for duty, etc are not acceptable of any SM, let alone a NCO (would apply to any officer as well). In that counseling, there needs to be a clear understanding of what occured, why it is not accepteable, and what the way would talk with the 1SG for help on this. This will serve two purposes: 1) help him understand the potential results of his actions; 2) start paperwork in the event you choose to seperate him from the service down the road.

Second, I would look to the chaplain or some other form of professional counseler to help. Not know the NCOs background, but there could be a large underlying reason for his behavior (PTSD, something).

Third, I would talk / counsel your PSG and figure out why nothing has been done in the past to correct SGT Jones for his actions. There seems to be more to the story than what the senior NCOs are saying.

Finally....I WOULDN'T transfer him to another unit. Rehab transfer do work, however this doesn't sound like a REHAB transfer, it seems (as you have stated) passing on your problem to another unit, which as Leaders, we don't do.

Also, if you truly are stuck on what to do, I would sit down with your commander, your XO, or your Peers and seek their advice.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 6:31 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 18:31:39 -0500

This may be just me but there is no excuse for domestic violence. If he is abusive to "his own" do you expect him to have compassion for his Soldiers or do the right thing when confronted with an enemy who surrenders and must be treated with respect and according to treaties? Boot him and hope that he gets some time in jail to think about his issues.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Dec 21 at 2014 6:57 PM

SSG Tim Everett — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 18:57:32 -0500

This is a tough call. I'm not an officer, so I generally try to avoid telling officers how to conduct officer business whether I think it's a dumb decision or not.

From my perspective, I absolutely cannot stand people who beat their significant other (I am an equal opportunist: women don't get a free pass to slap the piss out of their man). That alone would pretty much cause me to avoid any sort of meaningful contact with SGT Jones. And that's where the challenge is -- leaders lead, regardless of whether it's smooth sailing or stormy weather (I just watched a movie with ships, don't judge me bro!).

At the same time, though, pawning off a problem soldier on another unit is BS and I would not be able to countenance that action.

Realistically, though, if this soldier has a DV case on the books, unless regs changed or some shadiness went down to nullify it, this soldier is non-deployable and will probably be getting out soon. So that has to factor into any decision, as well. Without more data I can't really tell you anything but what I would do. And what I would do is keep SGT Jones, bust him down and remove his leadership capabilities, and move to separate him from the service because domestic violence is a no-bullshit offense. The military has deemed that people guilty of domestic violence don't belong, and I uphold and endorse that decision.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 7:02 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 19:02:11 -0500

CPT, you need to follow what you feel is best, but I would like to add some insight…It sounds like SGT Jones is having a lot of issues but that is no reason to kick them to the curb. Have you tried talking to him and simply asking what is going on? Some other things to keep in mind is maybe he is having some behavioral health issues, PTSD or things happeneing at home. You could also send him to the Chaplin or Behavioral Health department for your unit. I would hate to let an illness go undiagnosed and something really bad happen.
If he refuses to get help with whatever is going on by all means you did your best and it’s time for him to move on. But if you didn’t even try to get SGT Jones the help that he may need then you may have failed him as a leader and as an advocate.

Response by SGT Robert Hawks made Dec 21 at 2014 7:02 PM

SGT Robert Hawks — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 19:02:49 -0500

He should have been recommended for article 15 given counseling and remanded to medical for mental evaluation and treated for his obvious anger issues

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 7:23 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 19:23:08 -0500

I certainly feel that as leaders we must put some effort into reforming a problem Soldier. It is not easy but it can be very rewarding. Sometimes a change of scenery can be good for a Soldier, it should not be to dump them on someone else. Even an MOS change may improve some situations, they would have to show improvements before I would commit more resources into training the soldier. This is a good discussion because sometimes people help promote soldiers as a method of kicking the can down the road. I have had the hard talk with a motivated E4 who was simply not ready to make E5. The biggest thing we as leaders must do is lay out a road map for success and present the options to the Soldier. If they choose the right path then they will be rewarded. Great discussion topic.

Response by 1LT Ryan Millican made Dec 21 at 2014 7:48 PM

1LT Ryan Millican — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 19:48:25 -0500

Sir, I would have to agree with a few of the other comments that others have posted on here, in which, make sure you get everything in writing, paper trail is always key, counseling statements, sworn statements, etc. When I was on the enlisted side, as a Paralegal and did Article 15s, Courts-Martial, and Separations, I can't tell you how many times I had Commanders, 1SGs, Platoon Sergeants/Leaders, come into my office and want to give PFC Snuffy and Article 15 for disrespecting an NCO, or showing up late for formation, or whatever, and they would come in with nothing, no DA 4856, no DA 2823, nothing, and I would always tell them that I couldn't do anything without paperwork to back it up.

Also make sure you have the "magic statement" on the counseling as well, "You are being counseled in accordance with AR 635-200, paragraph 1-16, for your conduct as set forth in Part II above. Any further misconduct, inappropriate actions, or deficiencies in your performance may result in punitive action under the UCMJ and/or initiation of separation UP AR 635-200." or words to that affect. Most TDS attorneys would tear any action apart without that, I had my first Article 15 thrown out because of that, just don't try to play "barracks lawyer" and put the article in there too, like "you have violated Article 92 of the UCMJ," because then a lot of times you tie their hands and if it's actually not an Article 92 violation, then it could be potentially thrown out as well.

Response by CW3 Eddy Vleugels made Dec 21 at 2014 8:22 PM

CW3 Eddy Vleugels — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 20:22:17 -0500

Not sure I got the entire picture of what SGT Jones' problems were; in my view, I would first try to identify what his troubles are, and what is causing his behavior. Then based on the findings, seek help through counseling or whatever other options there may be available at your location. I would not, I repeat NOT, support chaptering him out, or sending him to a different unit just to get rid of him. That is a cowardice approach...and contrary to every principal of leadership.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 8:57 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 20:57:18 -0500

without having been an officer I am unaware of the rule book by which you were expected to play by, therefore I can only provide the input from an old NCO's perspective. The first thing I would have done as someone who is in charge is to determine some facts. Is this person really beyond assistance and needs to be dealt with or perhaps are there things going on which the unit can assist with?

Stating that The SNCO's of the unit are not wanting to deal with it again suggests that there are many more mitigating circumstances which should be considered. However, the first thing needs to be the collection of facts.

If this is an issue which cannot be solved mutually within the unit, then optioning the member out of the service should be the correct action. Passing the problem along does a disservice to the service member, as well as the service as a whole.

The interesting thing is that as a young officer you must rely on your NCO's to move you along the path of leadership. However, when do you feel that you should question their actions. I would guess the answer to that question, you should question their actions when you have to question their actions...

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Dec 21 at 2014 10:26 PM

SPC(P) Jay Heenan — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 22:26:45 -0500

Never pass a 'problem Soldier' off just because you don't have enough balls or leadership skills to do your job. The NCO Creed is pretty clear regarding this point. The Army is way to quick to chalk up a Soldier and throw him out or pass him off. Obviously, he needs to be held accountable for his domestic violence issues. Our jobs and his leadership is to lead this Soldier. If you have tried everything and deem him to be no longer able to serve our country, then you would need to do what you need to do. I am guessing that since there is no history of counselings, there is no way to know his past since nothing has been documented. This countries Mom's, Dad's, Grandpa's, Grandma's, etc. have entrusted their loved ones to us, it is our job to make damn sure that we do everything we can not to let that Soldier down before we write him off. He will either turn the corner or will need to be sent home. Experience, patience and leadership will determine the outcome!

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Dec 21 at 2014 10:47 PM

SGT Michael Glenn — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 22:47:48 -0500

I see no difference between this soldier and ANY other, if they choose to bring dishonor to a unit and the Military as well as the oath they swore to uphold I see no pity for them. Ask yourself, what you would do if it were Pvt Snuffy, they would be home faster than they could spit, so why even think of double standards that will only tear down the moral and respect of the chain. If they are worth keeping then off to a corrective custody facility with them , but having said that it would be in their records and would mean the ultimate end of a career no matter what. Only one thing you can do IMHO.

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Dec 21 at 2014 11:08 PM

Capt Jeff S. — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 23:08:30 -0500

If the SNCO's want him to go to another unit, I see that as only a half solution because you are pushing the problem off on someone else. That's not leadership. I'd be taking a second look at the SNCO's to see why they have neglected to counsel and document their counseling on the Sgt. By the time a person makes Sergeant they should know what's expected.

I'd be counseling (trying to find out why his performance has been so substandard) and documenting his infractions as well as corrective actions. Everyone deserves a chance but I'd be putting the ball in the Sgt's court. If he wants to stay in, he needs to fix himself. The misconduct has to stop.

Every Sgt knows you show up to work on time, and IF for whatever reason [and it had better be a good one!] you can't be on time, you had better call and let someone know so that your unit doesn't run you as UA or look bad turning in a late muster report.

By the next reporting period, if the Sgt didn't have his act together, I'd be processing him out.

Response by SrA Marc Haynes made Dec 21 at 2014 11:09 PM

SrA Marc Haynes — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 23:09:27 -0500

Psych eval?

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Dec 21 at 2014 11:12 PM

SFC Michael Jackson, MBA — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 23:12:31 -0500

There's a reason multiple Senior NCOs are wanting to rid the unit of the Soldier. I find it difficult to believe a group of Sr. NCOs would make that recommendation without having already attempted mentoring and rehabilitation
I don't see how SGT Jones can lead troops with a domestic violence arrest; That's one the military's zero tolerance hot buttons. For that offense, I'd consult legal. Determine direction- court-martial or non-judicial punishment. SGT Jones shouldn't be NCO if his arrest has validity
Don't believe in passing a problem to somebody else. If he left the unit, he's being chaptered

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 3:09 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 03:09:39 -0500

I'll answer from the perspective of the NCO:

Why isn't anyone asking me why I am perpetuating self destructive behavior? If someone asked, I would tell them why.

My responses would likely dictate your next move. Perhaps I wanted to be chaptered. Maybe I hated this unit; have a drinking/drug problem; marriage problems; trouble transitioning after my last three back-to-back deployments where we lost three guys.

I can understand why you want to transfer me, because I seem like a shitbird. My last unit transferred me, and my next unit will likely transfer me as well.

I will roll along until I ETS or until someone steps in and intervenes.

Intervention is the key. Do I want it, will I welcome it, or will I be oppositionally defiant with your every move? There are so many ways this could have been resolved, and at the lowest level....or esculated for chaptering.

Neither happened, so the cycle of violence in my personal life will likely self-perpetuate...I will not learn from my lessons, and what I have learned is when no one cares, they just make me go away.

My leaders failed me at all levels, therefore I will never be a leader period. They could care less and now I'm free to go onto my next unit...just like last time.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 6:59 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 06:59:14 -0500

If we are trying to trim the force to a certain level, we need to cut the fat from somewhere. If we have repeat offenders start the paperwork, thank him for his service and process him out. I am not trying to be callous about it, I am trying to be realistic.

Response by MSgt Sean Hackney made Dec 22 at 2014 7:56 AM

MSgt Sean Hackney — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 07:56:25 -0500

find out why this happening. personal, money. that is where it starts

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 8:32 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 08:32:20 -0500

Wow. This is what I am talking about when I speck of NCOs taking advantage of their new PL. I have seen situations like this before when I was an NCO and Officer. I would have personally spoken to him and counseled him. I would have asked him the day prior to right a plan of action as to how to correct his actions and fall in line with the Arm values. I would have read it before the counselling and made any corrections needed to improve it. I would have asked his supervisor to write a plan of action also for the soldier. I would have counseled both of them. I would have counseled the SGT first and lay out his plan that I decided for him, with the assistance of his Supervisor. I would have put benchmarks in there to measure his progress. When he would meet this benchmark I would have then created an event orientated counseling and then continue the plan. If he would have failed he would also get a counseling. I would have also counseled his supervisor. I would have even gave him a plan of action. I would want him to provide the correct guidance to put this soldier on track. If he didn't do his part he would get counseled for his performance.

The end result would be a lot of paperwork. It would be a headache for sure. But the goal is to support the soldier and provide as much information at needed to anyone evaluating the situation. If he does improve it would reflect. If he continues to fail it would also reflect. The counselings would either show his progress or his failures. It puts the ball in his court. By counseling the Supervisor he would have to answer for his actions.

This is my greatest fear when they say NCO business. NCOs try to push their will and make actions happen by other means then the official channel. I had a soldier get an Art 15. When the Commander asked me about him I had no clue what he was talking about. I never made the recommendation. The PSG did and never informed me. It was odd how we had one soldier that never passed the APFT for years and was another NCO. He had no issues and was given a pass. When this SPC had some issues he was crushed and reduced. It was NCO business, they claimed. After that I lost a lot of respect for that NCO.

Response by MSgt Roger Lalik made Dec 22 at 2014 9:50 AM

MSgt Roger Lalik — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 09:50:10 -0500

Sounds like it is your senior NCO's that failed. Not you. First thing is get this situation with the NCO's under control. Of course, you may need your Company Commander to do this. Second thing is you have to realize that every man can not be saved. But, most can be.

Lead your NCO's and challenge them to lead the problem child. You must do the "saving and fixing" through your NCO's. Lay the game plan down and ensure they adhere to your orders. This may take standing on their necks. Be prepared to do that. If they refuse to bend to your will. Then fire one of them up. Show them that you mean business. The others will fall in line.

You alluded to he has had problems before. You sound like you believe he is salvageable. Ensure your plan includes getting him to the experts that can actually do the fixing. Obviously what you are seeing are the manifestations of the problem(s). If the experts can't fix him. Then he should be discharged for the good of the service.

Transferring a problem-child to another command is a shameful failure in leadership throughout your command.

Good luck.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 9:51 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 09:51:43 -0500

Don't send him to another unit. Document, document, document, and get him out of the Army.

I've seen this backfire multiple times in my career. Aviators who can't hack it, either through lack of skill or lack of motivation, are shuffled to another assignment instead of being dealt with appropriately. Then a couple years later, they come back with increased rank, increased responsibility, and no increase in skill or motivation, which makes them even more difficult to deal with.

Deal with it now, up front, so that someone else isn't forced to deal with it down the road.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 10:47 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 10:47:10 -0500

You cannot just let them send him to another unit because that is just passing the problem to someone else to handle and that is happening way too much right now. You need to take the lead and counsel him with with senior NCO's of the company present. Make sure he knows he gets back on track or hits the streets, he won't be sent for someone else to figure out what to do with him.

Response by LTC Scott O'Neil made Dec 22 at 2014 11:32 AM

LTC Scott O'Neil — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 11:32:48 -0500

1. Counsel the individual on his negative actions because that is what leaders do. Take the actions to legal counsel and see what is required to remove this individual from The Army.

2. Never pass on a problem soldier to another unit. All you are doing is making your problem someone else.

3. Never give into peer pressure. Your Commander gave you the opportunity to step up and be a leader, that is why you wear stripes. "Be Know Do"

4. 30 60 90 day performance counseling to build a case for Chapter Actions.

5. Has anyone talk to this individual, and got him the help he needs, sounds like poor leadership breed a poor soldier. There had to be actions before this soldier went down the path he went. Looks like it was a leadership failure to take care of soldiers again!

Response by LTC Scott O'Neil made Dec 22 at 2014 12:14 PM

LTC Scott O'Neil — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 12:14:04 -0500

Would you have done the same as I did?

As a Company Commander, my first mission was to be a leader that meant stepping to the front of the formation and setting the example. The designation of Commander is always synonymous with the word Leader. People and soldiers think the words are one in the same, but they are not. A leader is a person who sets the tone and gets people to do what they would not normally do through respect and fortitude. A Commander has the authority to make someone do something, or fear legal retribution if they do not.
I was a Company Command of a M1A1 Tank Company for almost 18 months and during those 18 months I never gave out an Article 15, had a soldier show up on a blotter report and or come up hot in a urine analysis test. I never passed a soldier to another unit unless that soldier was getting an increase in rank or position that I felt he deserved. I also opened my command to all rehab transfers.
I belief there is no such thing as a poor soldier there is just poor leadership. I do believe that there are bad people that need to be kicked out of The Army for acts of violence, predatory assault and anything that has to do with Drugs, but first you have to ask how they got in The Army in the first place. That is another story. They need to place in an institution that was designed to handle the criminals they were before they entered this institution.
Here is a story I want to share with you and you tell me if I did what a leader should have done.
During my afternoon formations I noticed one of my Platoon Leaders was habitually late. I counselled him on his actions and his setting a poor example for his men. About a month later, he came to me wanting to give one of his soldiers an Article 15 for being late to formation. I asked him did he counsel the soldier on his tardiness. The Platoon Leader said no. I asked him if he asked the soldier was there something wrong or was there something happening at home that caused him to be late for formation. Again he said no.
I told him to bring the soldier to my office after final formation and that he and his Platoon Sergeant were to present the soldier to me at 17:30. At 17:20 the Company First Sergeant and I were sitting in my office to await the soldier and his leadership. The First Sergeant asked me what I was going to do. I told him was going to provide the soldier and his leadership with additional training. He began to laugh and said OK, I got to see how this works. I sad Top, I got this one.
At 17:35 the soldier and his leadership knocked on my door. They were 5 minutes late. But this was a good thing because it was a cause and effect to the additional training I was about to enforce. The Soldier and his leadership entered my office and stood in front of my desk at attention. I continued to look down at some paperwork I had on my desk. Without looking up I ask the Platoon Leader what time it was and he answered 17:35. I asked him what time I told him to be here and he answered 17:30, Sir.
I said, “you are late!” The Platoon Leader and Sergeant started to him and haw and I said, “enough!” We have an issue here gentleman, it seems that no one can tell time here in this situation, so, I am assigning the three of you some additional training. The three of them were taken back. I said that on this Saturday the three of you will report to me and the First Sergeant here in the office beginning at 0700 in PT uniform, then again at 0830 in class A’s, Then again at 0945 in BDU’s. Then at 1100 in NOMEX Uniform, and then a 1300 in in PT Gear and so on through the day until you get a T for Trained in this task from me and the First Sergeant.
Now was this punishment or extra training. I could have given the soldier an Article 15, but what example would that have set after only counseling his leadership for the same offense. No, I got my point across without Non Judicial Punishment and not ruining a good soldier with a lapse in judgment. I taught a lesson to the leadership about counseling, training and setting the example.
I was being a effective Commander and a good leader and that is what soldiers want and deserve.

Response by SGT John Rice made Dec 22 at 2014 12:34 PM

SGT John Rice — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 12:34:37 -0500

You should of stepped up and try to help him correct the problems he was having. Instead you turned him over to someone who you knew disliked him and would get him out of the unit. The Senior NCOs are not doing their job either. Rather than helping him they are just going to get rid of him. I do not know what type of unit it is or anything, but sounds like the NCOs are not doing their job, and as his immediate supervisor, LT. you are doing yours. If he is still in the unit get off your butt, Sir, and get to work. Your Top Sergeant should also have stepped in to try to determine how to help him with reassignment as a last resort. I am saddened by their actions as NCOs. I can understand your problem being you are still butterbar, and a new one at that.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 1:14 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:14:27 -0500

It appears that SGT Jones is in the thralls of a major life changing event, and transferring him to a new unit may just pile more straws on the camel's back. Talk to him, find the root cause then adjust course from there. As for the SNCOs it seems to me that some lack of responsibility need to be addressed here. From the descriptions above, it seems they not only set SGT Jones up for failure, but failed him utterly. Honestly this sounds like a multi-player massive failure on all parts involved, and accomplished absolutely nothing to further the betterment of the service. I had a very similar situation occur. My PL and PS picked me up from the MP station as my soon to be ex had called in, She wasnt even home at the time, her and her new BF thought it would be funny. So there i am sitting on my couch watching the Simpsons, and the MP's come busting in. It took hours to explain this away, but even though it was all a sham, i was ordered away from the home for 24 hours. As a cooldown was mandatory. My PS let me stay with him. Long story short, crap happens.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 1:55 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:55:50 -0500

His first line supervisor should have talked to him and found out what the root of the problem is. Domestic Violence is not something to push off to someone else. Chapter should never be the first response he will just be another disgruntled vet trashing the military and blaming everyone else for his problems. He needs to be taken care of and given whatever treatment is fitting to his issues. I have a very strong suspicion no one has taken the time to talk to this soldier and find out what is really going on. Very often the case seems clear to me that soldiers are not being cared for and as soon as they slip the least little bit they are chewed up and they just go down hill from that point to where they are on the next boat out of the military. If someone would have taken the time to notice when his work performance, or dedication started slipping this could have been avoided. No one is a great NCO on a tuesday then wednesday are off the tracks and don't care anymore there has to have been something to push him to the point he is at. The soldier does have to be held responsible for his actions, but you have to ask yourself as a leader what, when and where did something happen to make him turn down the road he is currently on. No one joins the Army to be a dirtbag, however if you get a soldier who is belittled and mistreated by his "leaders" they will very quickly start to not care. Our soldiers should be our priorities nothing can get accomplished without soldiers and their leaders mission accomplishment goes hand in hand with taking care of our soldiers if you think you are getting the mission done but your soldiers hate life think again. If your solders respect you to the point of they dont want to fail you because they dont want to let you down your mission will never fail. take care of your soldiers and they will take care of you.

Response by CSM David Heidke made Dec 22 at 2014 2:47 PM

CSM David Heidke — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 14:47:15 -0500

I think what you are saying is that the Mentoring period is over.

If you see a problem, you NEVER want to send it to another unit. EVER.

I have gotten other people's headaches, and I will not send them off to anyone else.

I have had these issues, and the bottom line is document EVERYTHING. (gee it seems like my cap lock key seems to be intermittently sticking).

If you document everything, you can still mentor. As a matter of fact, this counseling and documentation can drive the mentoring home. If this person starts to get counselled in writing then they may see the seriousness of the offenses and start to fly right.

And I would liberally dispense some counseling to those senior NCOs who had him before.

That's my take.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 3:38 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 15:38:59 -0500

As said so many times before "talk to him". What is this action(s) is his way of reaching out? What if he is on his last leg and is crying for attention, when he really just wants help or a reason to live?

This may not be the case with this particular SM, but I have had this in the past, had a SM calling for help by acting like this to get attention. I actually made the mistake of having my PSG step in, instead of me (First-Line). Once the command started the chapter paperwork because "he can't be helped" (actually said by my SFC and 1SG), my Soldier took his life. It was during the investigation we found out that he had some marital issues and a lot of other personal issues...all of which we (Leaders) could have helped him with.

Just talk with him...maybe that's all he needs.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 3:58 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 15:58:37 -0500

The commander should have asked you to collect all the "evidence" e.g., counselings, proof of FTR's, police reports, etc. Then you should have talked to your brigade legal team/paralegal and sought their guidance. Nonjudicial punishments (Article 15's) are there to help leaders stop problem behavior. SGT Jones could have received a some restrictions on his time and money...maybe rank if the commander wanted to do a field grade article 15.

You could have also counseled to the Soldier to see if there were underlying or mitigating circumstances then used available resources e.g., ASAP, chaplain, etc to help address the situation and improve the Soldier.

Finally, you could warn the Soldier that continued behavior would like result in further UCMJ actions and possibly lead to a General or OTH discharge via admin separation (chapter).

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 3:58 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 15:58:55 -0500

I have seen this issue many times especially in combat arms- a soldier acts stupidly and gets transferred to another unit. He isn't held to the standard, and yet at times other soldiers are held to a higher standard. Leaders should of course be compassionate about the welfare of the soldier and his victims, yet that compassion extends to how his behavior adversely affects the entire team. He certainly should not be a Sgt when he transferred, if at all. Soldiers expect that we do our duty to ensure that justice and compassion do not vary greatly from unit to unit outside established norms of exception. That said, every gardener knows you have to weed a garden so the flowers will grow. If NCOs cannot come forward with insight on the person leading to the behavior with useful recommendations for correction, then more senior leaders end up dealing mainly with the behavior and related fallout. Sometimes it is too late to do much more for the soldier, yet there are lessons to be learned for all ranks and maybe those NCOs need some weeding too for perhaps they are not setting limits and maintaining order and discipline as is their charge. Yes, sometimes there are other underlying issues--mental, physical, substance abuse--and we should do what we can so that such issues do not become common, nor should the Sgt become a model for poor conduct that seems to be acceptable.

Response by 1SG Cameron M. Wesson made Dec 22 at 2014 6:06 PM

1SG Cameron M. Wesson — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 18:06:55 -0500

Wow... First,this young NCO is in trouble... I don't mean just the UCMJ type either. There is a large underlying challenge that frankly you are not prepared to handle without a team effort That said....

Pull in the SGT... Counsel him on standards you demand... Capture the
misconduct and the session on a 4156 and an action plan. Here is the tricky part... In this situation... Relief of all leadership responsibilites (he can't be leading soldiers), command referral to communirty health as he needs the help of a professional... And this needs to be documented, and the CO needs to restrict him to the barracks ... If at all possible... with a no-contact order to those he has already committed domestic violence.

In this manner... You have addressed the conduct, shown care for the soldier, protected who you can, and tried to minimize the ability for further destructive behavior...

Some may say, "You're CYA... " And I say... "Your damn right!". But if you can't see the positive logical side of this COA... Then I question if you ever been in an ugly situation like this... I have and not just once or twice.

I'm saddened by the units desire to "whisk" him away for rehab... That is the wrong answer... And in my assessment... Not knowing all the facts... Doomed for failure as no one understood the root cause.

"Know your soldier and look out for their welfare". I guess they forgot this principle of leadership.

LT... You were in a no win situation... Especially when the SNCOs of your unit got the backing of the CO... I personally am very sorry for that... But in my opinion... Even had you stood your ground... You would have lost that fight as the CO/1SG didn't want a ugly problem. Lesson learned... Never allow that to happen when you're in command... Do the hard right... Not the easy wrong... And take care of the soldiers... Even the ones that can't be salvaged... As the others are watching.

Anyways... My 2 cents

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 6:53 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 18:53:26 -0500

This is from an interview with Nick Saban recently. I think this statement fits this situation.

"Where do you want them to be? Guy makes a mistake. Where do you want them to be? You want him to be in the street or do you want them to be here graduating?"

In his situation he was talking about players misbehaving and how it's handle by the schools/athletic programs. I think you can change the context and have it apply just about anywhere.

You give an opportunity for the individual to listen to what you have to say and correct the issue and if the pattern of misconduct continues, then take more extreme action.

http://www.al.com/alabamafootball/index.ssf/2014/12/dj_pettway_saban_second_chance.html

Nick Saban passionately defends D.J. Pettway's second chance, everyone who made it possible

At first, it seemed that the highlight of Nick Saban's response about defensive end D.J. Pettway would be his comparison of Pettway's pass-rushing role to that of a middle reliever.

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made Dec 23 at 2014 12:28 AM

SSgt Gregory Guina — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 00:28:41 -0500

First things first would be to tell the Senior NCOs that he is not going anywhere because you don't just send your problems to someone else to take care of you take care of them yourself. It is possible that starting paperwork to get him discharged was the proper COA but being that you had only been there a couple weeks maybe not.

What I would have done as a leader is try and determine what the cause of the problems is. It is possible that there is something going on to make him act the way that he has been acting. There could be a substance abuse problem contributing to his situation. There could even be a mental health issue that is causing his problems. Ultimately you need to help him find the root of his problem and assist him in getting that fixed. Maybe there is nothing he you can do and his pattern of misconduct continues and then you process for discharge.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 2:59 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 02:59:36 -0500

consult your fellow j.o. with in the command and not make this a multiple choice on a fucking social network.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Dec 23 at 2014 5:04 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 05:04:09 -0500

Start a little remedial counseling on some NCOs as to why should we pass our problems instead of taking care of our family!

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Dec 23 at 2014 5:19 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 05:19:52 -0500

I would begin with a talk to the PLT SGT and find out why there has been no counseling sessions set up. Why there has been no follow up on him. Who is his "battle buddy"? If he don't have one, find out why? It seems like the facts of the case have never been fully viewed. You need to have a formal counseling session with this guy. Many times once you find out what's going on and what the circumstances are, only then can corrective actions be taken. With no official counseling on this guy, it shows me the NCO leadership of the platoon as let him down, from his team leader, SQD LDR, PLT SGT. It's time you stepped in as the PLT LDR and get things going. If there is no counseling documents on this guy, then it tells me there are many others missing this as well. This is one reason for counseling, to find these problems and nip them in the bud. As a DS, I've run into problems. It was only as last resort a soldier was moved to another Platoon or Company, but with no documentation how can this procedure even start? I'm surprised your CO didn't bring this up, or maybe he's waiting to see how you handle leadership problems.

At this point in the game if I was you, After a talk with the PLT SGT, I'd get the PLT SGT and SGT Jones in your office together and start some talking and find out what's going on. No reason to shuffle a problem until the full skinny is known.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 8:40 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 08:40:21 -0500

As a young officer you would not know the back ground of the Soldier and will have to take other peoples word on the background. Your Commander was right to pull you in and talk to you. I don't know how that turned out but I would hope that after asked what you wanted to do, he would lay out a plan as the more experience leader. The 1SG and PSG should have also been very involved in this.

My personal belief is that you hold onto the Soldier and get him the help that he obviously needed. I had some Soldiers that had some similar issues and it takes a strong leader to force their way into the Soldier's life and be involved.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 8:45 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 08:45:27 -0500

As a new member of the unit you always have to step back and observe for a short period of time and considering using what works and determining what needs to be fixed. Was there an issue before you arrived to the unit? Is this all new behavior? These questions would play a big role in my decision as to what further action is required.

If the actions are a continued reflection of negativity for a long period, leader or not, he needs to be removed from his role and possibly separated from the military.

If the behavior has recently started than there is usually an underlying circumstance that is leading to the negativity. An easy way to build loyalty with your soldiers / NCOs is to take care of them. If they are having issues outside of the office that is affecting work, help them fix those issues. Personal problems aren't always the easiest things to fix but if you show effort they will notice and appreciate.

There are resources within the military than can assist with any problem. This NCO might not realize help is only a question away. Asking the hard questions and getting them help isn't always the easiest thing to do.

As for the Senior NCOs that you relied on to assist, make sure they are doing the right thing by the soldier. Sometimes it takes an outsider (new guy) to point out the fact they are not using resources properly.

As some others stated, make sure every action is documented. Both the counseling SGT Jones and the senior NCOs. This can help your case in the future if further actions are required with either.

Response by SSG(P) Matthew Bisbee made Dec 23 at 2014 10:52 AM

SSG(P) Matthew Bisbee — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 10:52:38 -0500

On the civilian side, I have seen a highly qualified college instructor quit because the number of classes he was offered to teach were cut back. The college dean should have counselled him on his deficiencies as an instructor (not providing feedback to students, not utilizing required materials for the program, and not preparing materials/utilizing prep time). He was a very knowledgeable instructor that just needed some redirection instead of being forced out.
It never hurts to step up as a leader and lead your troops.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Dec 23 at 2014 3:22 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:22:07 -0500

Unforunately, I've seen Senior NCOs display this behavior quite frequently. Rather than deal with the situation at hand through proper mentorship and leadership they find a way to avoid the issue altogther. It's why I always tell officers they need to be involved in the day to day operations of the unit, so they are aware of this behavior and can remedy it. While SGT Jones' behavior may not have improved resulting in a discharge anyways, he was in need of proper guidance.

By sending him away to a different unit, you are basically telling that soldier you have given up on him. Last I checked the warrior ethos include "I will always place the mission first. I will never accept defeat. I will never quit. I will never leave a fallen comrade." By sending him away you are accepting defeat, quiting on SGT Jones, and in a sense leaving a fallen comrade. If there came a point that proper leadership and guidance were insufficient, there are many more resources availble including the Chaplain, family counseling, behavioral health, etc. Worst case scenario that none of these options work and he is processed for discharge, we need to ensure he is set up to transition properly. We aren't doing anyone any favors by sending a soldier back into the civilian world with criminal and behavioral problems.

The Marines give us a great example with their phrase "Once a Marine, Always a Marine." We don't stop being soldiers because we stop serving. SGT Jones will always be a part of the military family, I would never give up on my family, would you?

Response by SSG John Erny made Dec 23 at 2014 6:23 PM

SSG John Erny — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 18:23:40 -0500

CPT Aaron Kletzing, Sir

Back in the day you could be voluntold to got to counseling is that not the case any more?

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 10:29 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 22:29:01 -0500

Sounds like you fell for all the age-old talk of brand-new Lieutenants needing to listen to their NCOs. Don't get me wrong. It is good advice. They have been in the army longer than you and have seen more than you. That, and they outnumber you. BUT... At the end of the day, they are not in command. YOU ARE. Make the decision as to whether or not you want to keep this soldier. Then, tell those senior NCOs to start doing their job, rather than simply giving up on the soldier.

Remember, authority can be delegated. Responsibility cannot.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Dec 27 at 2014 11:05 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sat, 27 Dec 2014 23:05:47 -0500

Sir, I am not going to put up with conduct like this from any Soldier especially an Noncommissioned Officer and certainly not an Officer. One the trends that unit like to do is to take a problem Soldier is to not rehabilitate him or her and send them off to another unit. This shows a lack a leadership and care for that Soldier and it sets a lousy standard. It is also laziness to refuse to help this Soldier and not another unit must deal with that Soldier.

First, suspend his security clearance if he has one.

Second, can we hold one to any weapons he has at his residence because after all this involves domestic violence even though the information provide just says domestic and not domestic violence. I would call JAG about the weapons part. If its legal, proceed and if not, make an MMR stating there was an attempt to hold on his weapson in the arms room due to the nature of the incident. Remember, we livce in a world of CYA so cover your bases.

Third, So this is the second time? And he was just shuffled off to another unit without any rehabilitation? As leaders we might be held liable if this Soldier was to do something really stupid like killing his spouse. An Army investigation might reveal his needs were ignored and if given attention instead of being sent to another unit certain incidents may have been prevented.

Fourth, we have two choices, process him under UCMJ and chapter him from the military or we can try to rehabilitate him but we need to hold him to it and UCMJ with suspension pay and rank might wake him up.

Response by MSgt Rob Weston made Dec 28 at 2014 12:50 PM

MSgt Rob Weston — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 12:50:42 -0500

There are many things to consider. First would be to start the paper trail on this Sgt's transgressions to CYA. Since this is the second time the DA occurred, I would get with the CO and request Command Directed Mental Health Evaluation to find the trigger that caused the DA (this could be anything from historical events in the past to something internal like finances or issues). A for the failure, a two fold approach. Find what is affecting him and have him study/Practice as needed

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Jan 7 at 2015 9:58 AM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Wed, 07 Jan 2015 09:58:26 -0500

UPDATE -- Hi everyone, in case you missed it, the PART 2 follow up to this thread can be found here: https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/leadership-dilemmas-if-you-were-me-what-would-you-have-done-part-2

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this fantastic discussion!

Leadership Dilemmas: If you were me, what would you have done? (PART 2) | RallyPoint

Here is the Part 2 conclusion to my first post entitled “Leadership Dilemmas: If you were me, what would you have done? (PART 1)” which can be found at this thread: https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/leadership-dilemmas-if-you-were-me-what-would-you-have-done-part-1 // CONCLUSION BELOW // …Upon recognizing Sergeant Jones’ unfortunate trend, I preempted his removal from Alpha Company by reporting to my commander and taking full responsibility...

Response by SFC Ricardo Ruiz made Jan 7 at 2015 10:44 PM

SFC Ricardo Ruiz — Wed, 07 Jan 2015 22:44:20 -0500

Sir

with all due respect you should not post this question in this forum. as everyone is looking
i came across the same situation here two years ago
1 soldier was going trough really hard times
2 supervisor turned in to social media for advice
3 other soldiers in the leader command saw the post quickly the rumor spread
4 soldier committed suicided
5 widow went to court Sue The Army for 100 millions and the leader for another 100 million i PCS don't know what happened.
good luck
I'm sure you will find all the advice and support with your local COC good luck and god speed

Response by CSM Tony Bowen made Jan 9 at 2015 11:41 AM

CSM Tony Bowen — Fri, 09 Jan 2015 11:41:01 -0500

Personally Sir, I wouldn't have let you and I would have convinced my Commander also. The 1SG should have had a foot on this from the beginning. He is responsible for mentoring, leading and training NCO's in his unit. You come in the door and you see the problem it is your job to get with the PSG and fix this NCO the best you can. Counseling is the first step and by what you say it was never done. Makes me want to put back on the beret and start leading from the front and taking care of my NCOs and Soldiers. You go sir. You have the right mind set. Work with that NCO until you see no other possible courses. That's what leaders do.

Response by SFC Richard M. made Jan 16 at 2015 9:48 AM

SFC Richard M. — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 09:48:05 -0500

In two weeks all this happened?

Sorry, I'm not a babysitter, but I'm also not one to pass the buck. As an NCO, he is held to a higher standard and is making an example of himself on what not to do.

My vote is not to pass him off and give someone else the headache, but to start the chapter paperwork and send him on his way.

Response by SSG John M. made Jan 16 at 2015 10:22 AM

SSG John M. — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 10:22:35 -0500

It's never a Leadership Dilemma, It's a Leadership Challenge! Do your Job LT
AATW

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2015 11:47 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 11:47:45 -0500

Sir, with all do respect you should have chaptered him out. Drinking in excess ok, maybe he is having issues, but domestic violence is a NO-GO in my book. He may be having some issues that need help and not willing to open up to anybody about them. I myself have been in the abuse of alcohol arena and surprised that I never got any worse than a 2-1 on my NCOER and still kept my job. But as leaders it is on us to mentor those that are having issues, we can not pass off sub par performers in this day and age of the military. Given the facts that you presented you have 2 options, help him, or chapter him.

Response by SFC Robert Wheeler made May 15 at 2015 6:42 PM

SFC Robert Wheeler — Fri, 15 May 2015 18:42:00 -0400

I was a Station Commander as a recruiter. I was called by my 1SG that he was sending me a Reserve Recruiter to "fire". I asked him what the deal was and he simply said, this guy has to go. Firing somebody is not one of my values as a leader. If the soldier has a problem, why not simply ask what the problem is and see if there is a solution. We are paid to lead. Throwing a soldier away is not leadership. You every soldier a chance to fix what is wrong. At the end of the day, the soldier I was sent to fire as an E-5 ended up the top USAR Recruiter in the Battalion and retired a SGM.

Response by SGT David T. made May 15 at 2015 7:02 PM

SGT David T. — Fri, 15 May 2015 19:02:28 -0400

First and foremost I would talk to SGT Jones and find out what was going on in his life. Sometimes as leaders there are problems in a Soldier's personal life that we are not aware of. This can also help to serve as a mitigating factor should you need to go to bat for the NCO. However, the point may be moot if he ends up convicted of Domestic Violence as a conviction would prohibit him from having access to firearms. That would force your hand because he cannot serve with such a limitation. I think that learning from this experience will help to develop you as a leader. New LTs have the problem if simply not knowing any better because of the training. In BOLC they are taught that the NCOs will always do the right thing and will help guide the new officer. This does not always happen and there is a tendency to protect their own. In the meantime SGT Jones needs help and it's important to get him that help.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 15 at 2015 7:30 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Fri, 15 May 2015 19:30:04 -0400

I've never understood why we feel an obligation to try and reform deadbeats and scum. We've all heard the phrase "your worst 10% will take up 90% of your time". Imagine how much better the Army would be if the other 90% of our Soldiers who deserve our time actually got it.... Let's focus on the good ones and chapter the turds... It's a downsizing Army. Let's train the ones with potential. They've earned it.

Response by SSG Jason Neumann made May 16 at 2015 12:53 AM

SSG Jason Neumann — Sat, 16 May 2015 00:53:13 -0400

Trying to figure out the problem would lead to many answers. Most Soldiers don't ask for help or even vent if they don't trust their NCO. Let's do our part. Also, if there isn't an documentation, there lies a problem too. How can you fix something you have no idea that existed if you don't ask the right questions. Be there for them and you can see a change with others, which in turn see a unit pulling together helping one another........think I saw this on a wheaties box. LOL