Leaders, What is Your Opinion on the Portrayal of CPT Sobel in Band of Brothers?

2022-01-15T15:19:53-05:00

In the WW2 mini-series, CPT Herbert Sobel (1912-1987) was depicted as a selfish a-hole who earned nothing more than hatred from his trainees. But in his defense, couldn't we say that his harshness is what hardened the men of Easy Company so that they would endure the trenches of Europe? I can't help but feel that this TV show has tarnished a man's legacy.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2022 3:46 PM

2022-01-15T15:46:01-05:00

Having them eat spaghetti and then go run up there he'll and vomit was not my view of showing leadership qualities. Also, he did not salute major Winters later in the show. Sure, this could have all been made up just for the series but I considered that's company Commander to be very sadistic not to mention that he didn't listen to his subordinates and he was captured over there at Camp McCall by the opposing forces.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2022 4:33 PM

2022-01-15T16:33:13-05:00

Having watched the series when it first came out and then reading the book Ambrose wrote (that the series was based on)...CPT Sobel was an asshole, yes. BUT.....even the men of Easy had attributed their ability to survive the hardships of war because of his tough training/leadership. I haven't read any of the books written by Winters or others telling their specific tales, but from what I understand, CPT Sobel was not painted well in those other books...as told by the men. Seriously, though. We weren't there so we have only what we can read and watch to go off of.

Response by SP5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2022 6:24 PM

2022-01-15T18:24:10-05:00

SPC July Macias The mini series did not get into the depth of dislike and derision with which Cpt Sobel was held by the NCOs in the company. Ambrose's book hit these points in a number of chapters, which the series missed altogether. This lack of detail makes it difficult to rate him as a leader. My uninformed view is that he was an effective trainer, but for a variety of reasons, was not a respected leader.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2022 7:02 PM

2022-01-15T19:02:46-05:00

I can’t judge, because movies and shows are normally exaggerated and I’ve read very little of the BoB book. But with that being said, I’ve known NCOs and Officers who were great in garrison and in training, but were lousy downrange. You can hide a lot in training and in garrison….you can hide when it’s time to really execute. Big difference.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Jan 15 at 2022 7:34 PM

2022-01-15T19:34:05-05:00

The argument could be made that he was an excellent task master and was a strict officer who held fitness a over all else.

But you could also call him a dilettante who was more focused on the glory of combat instead of being an efficient Infantry Leader. He lacked the skillcraft to be successful as an Infantry Officer which is what led him to be reassigned to a training position where his skills would be useful. He wanted to be in charge and manipulate people but that’s not really want the infantry is about. At least not in wartime

Response by SFC Kelly Fuerhoff made Jan 15 at 2022 9:22 PM

2022-01-15T21:22:30-05:00

I've heard it's spot on and if you watch any of the interviews they did with the actual soldiers who served with him - they were glad he was hard on him. They credit his harshness with PT for being able to endure what they did during combat. But they said he wasn't a good leader and no one trusted them to lead them into combat. He was tactically incompetent. He never tried to even learn field tactics. No one respected him nor did any of his NCOs trust him. None of the officers trusted him. He may have physically prepared them for the adversities they faced in battle but overall, he was a shit leader and any interview you find with them they nearly all say that. They credit him for the PT but that's it. They still hated him even after the war. He was apparently a better staff officer than a tactical officer.

Here's this: "Most of the men of E Company were in agreement after the series was made that Schwimmer had that character down. Sobel was thoroughly hated by the men of E Company. He was truly “chickens**t,” a name soldiers use for a superior who not only goes by the book but attempts to write their own chapter of it."
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/e-company-band-of-brothers.html

And if you look up Ambrose's book there's an excerpt that mentions how Sobel had a lot of mental issues after the war. He disappeared from sight. Married, had two sons, divorced and was estranged from his kids. Worked as an accountant for an appliance store in Chicago. In the 60s. MAJ Clarence Hester had lunch with Sobel, and Sobel seemed pretty bitter toward E Company and life in general. 20 years after that, Guarnere tried to find Sobel and found his sister who said Sobel was in "bad mental condition and directed his rage at the men of E Company." Guarnere was head of the 101st Association at the time, that's why he went to find him. But he paid Sobel's dues to the association in an attempt to get him involved. Nothing happened and shortly after is when Sobel shot himself. He survived that attempt and died in 1988. No one came to his funeral, not his ex wife, not his kids and no one from E Company came.

So I think that pretty much sums up that no, Schwimmer didn't exaggerate his portrayal of Sobel. Everyone in Easy hated Sobel and he hated them. They did give him credit where it was due for the physical training aspect but that's it.

5 Little Known Facts about Easy Company "Band of Brothers"

HBO's “Band of Brothers” mini-series was aired in 2001. Since that time, the series has, if anything, gained in popularity. This is partly due to later

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2022 3:25 PM

2022-01-16T15:25:38-05:00

A more interesting question is which would you rather get stuck with:
Sobel or Dike?

I suspect there is degree of dramatic latitude given when writing the scrip. How many here know that Sobel made it to LTC after the war, and ended up committing suicide. Which is as sad as any other.

The whole Sobel and Winters (when a MAJ) salute drama also never happened per Winter's words.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Jan 19 at 2022 3:28 PM

2022-01-19T15:28:30-05:00

In both the book and in the movie CPT Sobel was universally disliked. Some of the stuff he pulled just wasn't good leadership and didn't promote teamwork. You can be strict and enforce standards without being a horses butt.
I read that he fought again in the Korean war and made LTC but later shot himself in the head attempting suicide.
I don't feel sorry for him being depicted accurately by the Soldiers in their interviews or later in the movie. You reap what you sow. I do feel sorry for his family as his behavior and his actions have left them with that portrayal as their legacy.
Be hard, be fair, treat folks decent and lead from the front and you don't have to worry about being portrayed or remembered as being an ass.

Response by LTC Stewart Mason made Mar 24 at 2022 10:51 PM

2022-03-24T22:51:05-04:00

I enjoyed this mini-series and having been an NCO and Officer. CPT Soble's leadership style created some successes in physical readiness while utilizing poor methodologies that did not foster respect. Great leadership will develop a collective drive that will cause the individual to change their perspective and enhance the team approach to success. I fully recognize that preparing for and engaging in war requires changes that may require restrictive actions to ensure compliance, but I also know that Soldiers crave great leadership. Shaming, disrespectful actions and not supporting of NCO Leadership will create an environment that will break down unit capabilities and lead to unsuccessful commands.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Mar 26 at 2022 12:45 PM

2022-03-26T12:45:20-04:00

I have served under officers like CPT sobel. I gave my subordinates as much top cover as I could and prayed hard for his time to run out. I'm still standing...nuf said

Response by SPC(P) Craig Kupras made Mar 26 at 2022 2:44 PM

2022-03-26T14:44:50-04:00

He tried to court martial one of the finest leaders in the army because he was jealous of him. He also couldn't read a map and, in one field exercise he got his entire company slaughtered by leading them into an ambush. But, yeah, other than that...

Response by LTC Ray Buenteo made Mar 26 at 2022 2:45 PM

2022-03-26T14:45:24-04:00

From a training perspective he was brilliant in a way. He picked at the most inobvious forcing the men to battle buddy check one another in order to stay ahead of sobel. It’s the little shit that messes up a mission. The stuff you might not think about. But as everyone mentions his character took a nose dive in tactical leadership.

Response by Jerry Rivas made Mar 28 at 2022 5:50 PM

2022-03-28T17:50:10-04:00

The mini series erred by virtue of NOT portraying what an unmitigated ass Sobel really was. From the word go he was a foul up. In the l70's this moron attempted to commit suicide and only managed to blow both eyes out. He spent the rest of his miserable life blind in a nursing home. What a wretched prick.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2022 9:14 AM

2022-03-29T09:14:23-04:00

Granted we have a new way of leading, and sometimes it for the better and sometimes it's not. You'd also have to take into account that during that time companies/battalions/regiments and so on were stood up together. A company commander had to generate his force from nothing, and although his way was cruel at times, it sharpened the men of that company into what they needed to be. Today he's be relieved of command, but like I said, times were different.

Response by CPO James Harrison made Mar 29 at 2022 10:42 AM

2022-03-29T10:42:56-04:00

I couldn't get past the horrible actor that they used to portray him. David Schwimmer is a joke. If CPT Herbert Sobel was as much of a wimp as Schwimmer, no wonder his NCOs hated him.

Response by SFC Mary Snyder made Mar 29 at 2022 10:48 PM

2022-03-29T22:48:53-04:00

All spin and speculation. A novel.

Response by SGT Michael Wells III made Mar 30 at 2022 2:28 AM

2022-03-30T02:28:04-04:00

Honestly, his training was spot on. I would actually want this guy as a drill sergeant.

But as a leader - he was well below par. His leadership reminded me of a lieutenant I knew.
When all of the NCO's voluntarily turned in their rank, that spoke to me and my experiences and refusing to commit to some "requests" (because he was too afraid to make it an order because he knew it was unlawful) and being passed up for promotion because of it - the request was to haze a soldier who was struggling with finances and a failed marriage. I couldn't help but to cheer these guys on and think "You're doing the right thing".

Before any of you think this is just "officer hating", I remind you that this was in opposition to this officer treating another well-performing officer with disdain because he saw him as a threat - an enemy rather than an ally.

That's where this resonates. I felt in my last unit that a particular officer treated enlisted as if they were enemies rather than allies and on the same team. It wasn't just me it was the 1SG also. Even the SGM took notice and tried rattling chains at battalion over it.

It happens though - these kinds of officers do exist and I think it's important that the US Army recognize this and either correct it or accept it as normal life in the Army.

Response by 1SG Ernest Stull made Mar 30 at 2022 7:49 AM

2022-03-30T07:49:46-04:00

I do not disagree with what you say but I believe it was his style of leadership was borderline psycho on control. He was very distant and never respected the men or his officers. his attitude was more like I am in charge and you will do as I say not as I do.

Response by SSG James Stodola made Mar 30 at 2022 10:43 AM

2022-03-30T10:43:09-04:00

It is really hard to come to a real conclusion on this matter for many reasons, hollywood takes license to make things interesting, whether they are true or not, I am not of that generation, and haven't read any books on this issues. So from my stand point as a former leader in the NCO Corps, I would rate him as maybe a 1 or 2 in leadership. Now we all know leadership comes in all forms and can be effective in many of them. It seems to me that he was just an A hole in general and did not like his men, his job, or much of anything. Given that it would lend to his behavior as a "leader", which I would not classify him as such. To me, a leader not only leads their troops but more importantly inspires them to be more than they think they can be.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2022 11:08 PM

2022-03-31T23:08:08-04:00

AR 600 -100 has redefined what it means to be a destructive leader. There are two different traits that he has exemplified. I believe that he is not ideal for what we need but he was only in an environment that enabled him to function due to the desire of short-term success. You should actually read how he died. It's pretty sad.

-Insensitive driven achiever. These leaders are usually bright and energetic and consumed by need for unit accomplishment and its attendant recognition. They often provide impressive short term results, but create a frenzied, micromanaged climate. They are frequently inattentive to the morale of their organization.
-Toxic self-centered abuser. These leaders are also usually bright and energetic, as well as goal-oriented and bossfocused. Capable of producing spectacular short term results, but are arrogant, abusive, intemperate, distrusting, and irascible. They are typically distrusting micro-managers never burdened by introspection.

Response by PO2 Scott M. made Apr 1 at 2022 2:39 PM

2022-04-01T14:39:28-04:00

Oh Lordy! I'd honestly have to re-watch the series to give a better assessment of his character. It's been, what, 20+ years since I watched it? Hmmm... might be time to give it another watch since many of the modern shows are beyond horrible!

Response by CW5 Mark Smith made Apr 2 at 2022 6:21 PM

2022-04-02T18:21:48-04:00

To put it in the vernacular, Sobel was too much unnecessary chickenshit. Hard training pays off. But simple harassment does not a respected leader make. I experienced too much of it in the Marine Corps which is one of the reasons I switched to the Army.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2022 11:20 PM

2022-05-11T23:20:43-04:00

I can say from my own experience that he is the example many of us have seen about officers or leaders in general. Some people have no people skills but may be good at other things like organizing and paperwork. Its the rare few that posess it all and those guys stick out and we remember them long after we leave the service.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2022 12:36 PM

2022-06-06T12:36:20-04:00

There are several accounts available on the web that confirm or deny various scenes in the miniseries, including:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Sobel
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/e-company-band-of-brothers.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/Military/comments/6eno9n/why_wasnt_herbert_sobel_given_a_military_service/
https://wikiofbrothers.fandom.com/wiki/Historical_Inaccuracies
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Norman_Dike

My father was commissioned in 1942 as an artillery officer, and participated in the retaking of the Aleutian Islands. Things were much different then, because his privates had only a 6th grade education and his NCOs rarely had more than an 8th grade education. Training back then was a 2LT with no actual experience reading from a manual to teach his men how to operate, in my dad's case, a 105 mm towed howitzer.

Of the two islands taken, one had been abandoned by the Japanese before the 7th Infantry Division could get there. They still suffered about 300 casualties, many because of soldiers who lost their grip on the scrambling nets while getting into landing craft, fell into the water, and drowned. My father took this very hard, because it was his job to see the men trained, but he didn't know any more than they did what the dangers were of climbing down a net into a rocking boat.

For this reason, I am somewhat sympathetic to Sobel. He was an a$$hole, but E company men credited him with toughening them up enough to survive the rigors of war. His biggest mistake was believing he had to be an expert at everything, refusing to ask for help when he was not competent (for example his map reading skills.)

Herbert Sobel - Wikipedia

Response by SSG Rick Miller made Jun 10 at 2022 2:05 PM

2022-06-10T14:05:19-04:00

After the war, many of the troops gave him credit for his training that enabled them to endure and survive combat. Being a hardass as a trainer is not the same thing as being a leader. From all I've read about him, he was a grade A prick as a training officer, but an utter and complete failure as a leader. The mini-series in no way "tarnished" his reputation. He did that all by himself.

Response by SGT Robert Martin made Jun 10 at 2022 7:55 PM

2022-06-10T19:55:00-04:00

The series really does gloss over the troops distrust of their first CO. I think it's safe to make a few assumptions about this subject. 1. When every junior officer, and NCO not only has concerns, but is willing to jump the chain of command to avoid serving in combat with their company CO there has to be a serious issue. 2. Later in the series we see the same men willing to serve under what at best could be called an ineffective captain simply because the 1sgt was a good leader I think that speaks volumes. I think the only reasonable conclusion is these men truly believed that Capt Sobel was going to get them killed needlessly. In the end it really doesn't matter if he truly was that incompetent or not. The fact is his men believed him to be a threat and that alone made him a threat.

Response by LTC John Wilson made Jun 10 at 2022 10:10 PM

2022-06-10T22:10:49-04:00

I had read "Band of Brothers" long before the mini-series came out. Sobel made a significant impression on me as I had suffered under a toxic company Commander who made Captain Sobel look like Captain Kangaroo.

My impression of Sobel from the book was a Commander who did the right things to develop a solid, cohesive unit for all the wrong reasons.

David Schwimmer portrayed Sobel very well. I don't think the series did as good a job at explaining Sobel as the book did, but the series came very close.

Response by SSG Wayne Wood made Jun 11 at 2022 9:51 AM

2022-06-11T09:51:30-04:00

Even several of the guys in Easy Co. admitted later on they thought the series was hard on CPT Sobel. A lot of that was because of time limitations and ease of telling the story within the constraints of the medium. The book admits Sobel, even with his shortcomings, probably was the major driving factor in making Easy what it became.

No, the NCOs of the company did not trust him to lead them into combat and the mutiny was real. There's no doubt Winters despised him and with cause - the bogus charges Sobel wrote him up on were that - bogus Charlie Sierra. Sobel appears to have had a great organizational ability and the ability to train troops. However, he appears to have lacked whatever is to lead those troops into combat - to inspire the confidence in him to follow him to hell that Winters and others had. I have seen that before. Officers who were great on staff but failed miserably in command and leadership positions, through no apparent fault of their own but something in their persona or character that failed to inspire troops. I've also seen officers who had charisma whose troops would follow them to hell but weren't great with administration. Col Ruben Tucker comes to mind, who commanded the 504th PIR in the 82nd during World War 2.

Tucker has been called one of the best combat regimental commanders of World War 2; but was always in trouble for his inattention to paperwork. He got a chewing out after leaving Anzio and Italy for England when he took a stack of disciplinary reports and charges against his troops and dropping them off the side of the ship rather than dealing with it. I think there's more to the story, but...

Sobel probably wasn't as bad as the impression one gets from the series - and again, even some of the Easy vets admit it, but the producers had to compress two and a half years of history (from training to VE Day) into a relatively few hours. Bottom line is again, Sobel's personality (even his flaws) made Easy what it became if only by giving them a common foe to hate; but once having molded an excellent Infantry company he lacked the ability or gift to lead that unit into combat.

Response by MAJ A C made Jun 11 at 2022 10:14 AM

2022-06-11T10:14:25-04:00

How is it tarnished if it's true? Wouldn't be more accurate to say his actions "tarnished' his legacy? The book didn't go into the level of dislike his troops had for him, so I'd say they did him a kindness.

Response by CPL Theodore Moore made Jun 12 at 2022 1:43 AM

2022-06-12T01:43:39-04:00

They got away with a lot of stuff in WWII when we were desperate for personnel that would never stand today. That's for sure.

Response by SPC John Tacetta made Jun 28 at 2022 2:44 PM

2022-06-28T14:44:50-04:00

I never knew the man on which the character was based (and Hollywood does takes its liberties), so I can't say whether the portrayal of the man himself is accurate or not. However, I've run across a number of NCOs and officers that can fit into the suit that character wore (thankfully in the minority, unfortunately present). He was petty, vindictive and incompetent in the field. I'm sure you heard it: "shit floats to the top" or "fuck up, go up". Overall, a good sketch of something you're bound to meet in the service.

I recommend "The Pacific" as a truly complementary companion piece.

Response by SPC John Tacetta made Jun 28 at 2022 4:24 PM

2022-06-28T16:24:23-04:00

You don't need to be a dick to inspire and properly train troops. I had a sadistic DI in basic that certainly ran us ragged and an inspiring DI in AIT that pushed us even harder. Guess who I'd rather train and serve with.

Response by SPC Joseph Gibbs made Jun 28 at 2022 11:43 PM

2022-06-28T23:43:33-04:00

An adequate training officer, but a inept combat field commander.

Response by Jerry Rivas made Jul 1 at 2022 6:26 PM

2022-07-01T18:26:43-04:00

Men of Easy company actually gave him credit for toughening them up. But as a leader he was a failure. And he sucked at map reading. He was a devoted husband and father who ended up blind, in a veterans home after a failed suicide attempt. I realize it is easy to armchair quarterback....but mostly the men who served under him hated his guts.

Response by SPC Charles Sewell made Jul 4 at 2022 1:05 AM

2022-07-04T01:05:20-04:00

The Drill instructor is not your buddy, he has a job to do. His job was to sharpen those troops to their best. Many easy company troops credit him with their combat readiness. In a combat environment he was not effective. As a drill instructor he was able to motivate his troops to rise to levels they otherwise would not have realized. He was totally hated.

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made Aug 10 at 2022 5:15 AM

2022-08-10T05:15:04-04:00

CPT Sobel, the depiction whom in the Band of Brothers series, and as described by Soldiers that served with him, was to say the least unflattering. He was, like many a completely inexperienced Officer in his first experience of command, with only his own limited training and observations of other Officers and NCO's, to fall back on. With this in mind, I would say he did the best he could, and when his shortcomings were noted by his CO he was reassigned to duties more in line with his abilities.
He volunteered for Airborne, and while maybe not a great soldier or leader, he answered his nations call to arms.

Response by SSG Don Maggart made Sep 2 at 2022 2:46 PM

2022-09-02T14:46:06-04:00

He lacked a Couple of Wood line Attitude Adjustments...

Response by SSG Don Maggart made Sep 2 at 2022 2:47 PM

2022-09-02T14:47:35-04:00

I'd lay my grass Down my sleeves were rolled v rt isply

Response by TSgt John Brody made Sep 4 at 2022 7:21 PM

2022-09-04T19:21:43-04:00

He DESERVES to be tarnished.
Training should be hard with the goal in mind: toughest paratroopers on the planet that WILL succeed in their mission. The 'sobels' of the world are simply cruel and do NOT train with the goal in mind. They simply are on a power trip.
Maybe they got their lunch money taken in school and now is the chance to get back (get even) at the world.
I've had a few so-called "leaders" over the years that made sobel look like a sweetheart and guess what.... If I ever run into them out here in the civilian world, I'm gonna levy some payback on 'em.

Response by CPL Mike Kiernan made Sep 4 at 2022 9:16 PM

2022-09-04T21:16:01-04:00

Sobel's almost OCD driven reg's sticking to is what taught his men to know the difference between an Officer, and a Commanding Officer, something that we all have seen, and had to go thru. Sobel was a Technical Officer, not a Commander, and his subsequent actions proved that.

Response by CPL Chris Palmberg made Sep 23 at 2022 1:39 PM

2022-09-23T13:39:41-04:00

There is a significant difference between an effective garrison soldier and a good combat soldier. The same is at a minimum equally true of a leader, particularly in the company grades and environment. Captain Soebel's methods of instilling discipline, both mental and physical, served Easy well, but he was not a combat leader.

Response by 1SG Ron Schlatter made Oct 4 at 2022 10:33 AM

2022-10-04T10:33:49-04:00

Toxic leadership is not uncommon in any profession. I think that Hollywood may have overstepped the role of Captain Sobel.

Response by PFC John Roscoe made Oct 4 at 2022 7:28 PM

2022-10-04T19:28:31-04:00

He was insecure and tried to comepensate withdemonstrations of unnecessarily harhness and trie to substitute domination for leadership. You can be tough and hardcore with the people you lead, but your success will be product of the respect you earn through your own integrity and, yes, humanit, towards those you lead. He had zero empahy or rapport with the men under his command.