Law Enforcement: How do we keep them accountable?

SGT Suraj Dave — Wed, 13 Aug 2014 13:33:32 -0400

I have been noticing a trend lately, and its disturbing to me. Not all police are bad, many of them are great people who help the community on and off the clock, but in the past year I have come across so many videos on social media of officers brutally attacking children and killing others .... who had done nothing wrong. Is there no accountability for the police?

(I posted a couple videos of cops beating up civilians, and one video of a cop choking another guy to death, the moderator and/or administrator of RP seems to have removed it)

Why is it if a soldier injures or kills a civilian he is court marshalled, but if a LEO does it, its "Paid Vacation"?

In my honest opinion, we as soldiers treated the Afghan Populace with much more dignity and respect then the police treat U.S. Citizens with.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2014 2:24 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Aug 2014 14:24:54 -0400

I'm not one to make assumptions based on a video. Yes, video is a fantastic tool to bring forth into a courtroom as evidence. However, my question is always this: is the video showing the ENTIRE story - from beginning of the situation to the end - or is the video only showing what the videoographer wants to be shown? Video is only a tool. How that tool is used is the key.

Second question, in each situation where you saw someone getting their ass kicked by police, have you done due diligence and gone through the process of finding out what the results of the investigation / trials were? Or are you just assuming the cops got by with the "offense"?

What you call "paid vacation" is a direct result of cops being accused of offenses and those offenses found to be an angry citizen trying to put the cop off the job. Citizens do anything to get a cop off the job - and usually it's because the cop caught them doing something illegal and the cop made the offender's day really bad. So, today in most police departments, when a cop is accused of a serious crime, the officer is put on "administrative leave" until the outcome of the investigation / trial. If the officer is found guilty, THEN the officer is penalized but not until. It's kinda like the rule that civilians have - "innocent until PROVEN guilty".

Just remember - video's are not the "endall" when it comes to an investigation. I remember one particular situation where an officer was found to be beating the hell out of a guy in an elevator...the video was 11 minutes long. What the video DIDN'T show was the individual throwing away the gun he emptied at the cop just before he entered the elevator. The cop entered the elevator just before the doors closed and proceeded to attempt to arrest the guy - who resisted. The cop beat the crap out of the guy because the guy kept resisting and trying for the cop's gun. The cop got put on "administrative leave" for 5 months until the investigation was complete and he was proven innocent.

So, don't make a decision on just a video - people out there aren't stupid, they try to set up cops all the time.

Response by 1SG Mike Case made Aug 15 at 2014 8:30 AM

1SG Mike Case — Fri, 15 Aug 2014 08:30:41 -0400

The answer for your first question as to why they are on "paid vacation" and the Army is court-martialed, is a union.

As for the rash of outbreaks of cops attacking people, there can be as many videos of law enforcement doing great things for their community as well. As the saying goes "you build 1000 bridges, you are a bridge builder, but you suck one #$%^ and that makes you a #$%^ sucker".

Everyone always remembers the bad things that people do and that is what stands out. What makes its worse is that the cops are sworn to uphold the law. They are the ones we teach our kids to run to when in danger or scared. I promise you that law enforcement hate the ones that do the horrible things. They want nothing more than to get rid of the bad apples, just as we do in the military. If it comes to light that this cop was wrong, then try him and sentence him, but truly he has already been tried. Nothing short of the death penalty will satisfy the people looking for justice. The law enforcement community right now has two black eyes and a bloody nose and only law enforcement can repair the ugly image people them as. It will take time but it can be repaired.

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Sep 2 at 2014 1:02 PM

MAJ Jim Woods — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 13:02:23 -0400

As I am retired from Law Enforcement, I will say that the Agency I worked for, and the Agencies I worked with, would not allow anything to go unpunished if the officer was wrong. They also will prosecute to the letter of the law. I do notice that many of the videos I have seen are in areas of the country that have on-going battles with LE-Population-Media. Most of the time, the local culture has an influence on how the police respond to issues. Right or wrong, it's a fact. No excuses.

As the Ferguson, MO plays out, it will be interesting to see how everything is handled given the local and outside political influence involved. The officer, even if he is cleared of any wrong doing, can not go back to work in that community.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2014 11:21 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 23:21:35 -0400

SGT Suraj Dave 1SG Mike Case PO1 Private RallyPoint Member If it were but one instance, one really bad moment that would be one thing. It would be shocking and intolerable and so we are left with the horns of a dilemma. Do we justify that kind of malice and cloud it with our own narrow perception?

The problem is, IMHO, that the rise of paramilitary behavior on a routine call when things go terribly wrong and ends with a slap on the wrist. The officers are awarded a lot of latitude with their behaviors and attitudes towards a SUSPECT and certainly not hurling a young woman into a concrete stool which resulted in a shattered cheek and eye socket. As a judge I would ask the cop to apologize and plead for HER mercy.

Officers are there to keep the police and quell violent behavior. Mere disrespect should not be the basis for a life changing event and subsequently provide fuel to unrest.

Now my experience is my brother-in-law is an exceptionally calming person in a crisis. All the times we in each other presence he was a consummate gentlemen, deferring to others rather robbing them of dignity, no matter the cost. He eventually became police chief.

On night there was a call and a young guy wrapped his father's brand new car around a tree and the father was ready to beat his son up. My BIL got on a three-way call and settled both the kid and his father down. I have never seen that before. Kill em with kindness and treat other with utmost respect.

I respect cops and I would never accelerate stress to give a cop any reason to assault me. But this is the real world. And cops MUST not aggravate the situation with unmerited violence.

http://youtu.be/gMWDxwL1Zog

No one can justify that! No amount of community service can mitigate that kind of behavior and I bet that if COPS were filming this would not have happened. That community and the nation hold cops responsible as they would hold civilians.

Skokie woman's face shattered after being launched into concrete jail cell bench

SKOKIE, IL -- Disturbing video evidence has been released of an incident that left a woman's face so badly injured that she needed facial reconstructive surg...

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Sep 4 at 2014 8:19 PM

SSG V. Michelle Woods — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 20:19:00 -0400

I have always been very conservative compared to my anti-"The Man"-parents and their conspiracy theories however this was the final straw for me. I spent hours researching this story because I just couldnt believe it was true.

But it is true and it is devastating.
Was the old homeless man being aggressive? Yes. Did he deserve to have his face bashed in as he was screaming out for his father? Well the interviews and video answer that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn8CE5ISUSw

Police beat a mentally-ill homeless man to death

WARNING: this video contains graphic images Manuel Ramos, a police officer from Fullerton, California, has been charged with second degree murder for alleged...

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Oct 24 at 2014 8:29 AM

CMSgt James Nolan — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 08:29:10 -0400

SGT Suraj Dave First, I will qualify this statement with my own experience: Been in that field since '85 (Military Police-CONUS/OCONUS, City Cop, Federal Agent).

When you state that you have seen social media accounts of police officers brutally attacking children and killing others...who had done nothing wrong.... It makes me cringe. Videos like that are generally only a portion of the story. You have to realize that.

Are there bad cops? Yes. In every State? Yes. Hell, a Deputy US Marshal from Florida was just arrested in California for ripping off a drug dealer for 27 pounds of weed! A Police Officer in Birmingham was burning down houses. A Customs Agent went to prison for Child Porn.

When you say why is it fair that if a soldier injures or kills he is Courts Marshaled, but if a LEO does it, it is a paid vacation-know this: Soldier-innocent until proven guilty, gets paid until if/when a sentence is delivered. LEO-tried by the public media, immediately crucified, paid-yes, until legal decisions are made. IF a cop commits a straight up crime and is arrested for it, he will not be getting paid. Whoever he works for will fire him, but there are procedures that the employer has to follow.

As far as the videos, I have to tell you that I am glad they took them down. They are nothing but incendiary.

Very few Police walk out the door saying "today I am going to treat the world like shit". But every day, those same guys/gals get treated like shit by the world. 99% of Police treat people well, then the people deteriorate the situation, then the Police have to do things to enforce the law and maintain order, then the cameras come out and you see 10% of a situation.

You have been a soldier, I applaud your service. Now, since you think that Police are violent and unaccountable, I invite you to go to a big city police department and do some ride alongs with real cops and find out just how tough it really is. Let me know how that works out for you, I think it will open your eyes to reality. We encounter guns daily-some get used, some don't. I treat folks the way I would want to be treated, until that doesn't work.

Response by SSgt John Paul Furman made Oct 27 at 2014 8:23 AM

SSgt John Paul Furman — Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:23:19 -0400

Given that I've been a fulltime cop for the last 11 years I'm a little biased on this. Are there bad cops out there? Yeah, there are. I know it and I can't deny it. Cops are just a microcosm of society, so like anything other profession; clergy, medical, teaching, mechanic, etc... There are always bad ones. But, just like those professions, for every bad one I can show you at least 100 (probably a gross underestimate) good ones. Coppers that day in and day out go work and do their job. Silently and without looking for praise, because that's the oath that they swore to do. Lets face it, strictly due to the nature of our job, we're not liked very much as a whole by society. We write too many tickets and don't give enough breaks. We're always filling a quota, never issuing a ticket that the violator rightfully earned. We're just out harassing honest, hard working, decent people, when we should be out "catching all the criminals." (No, we don't have anything better to do). We arrest people for having a good time. Never mind that they're double over the legal limit and were causing a disturbance. Obviously that had nothing to do with the arrest and we just have a superiority complex. When I meet someone for the first time, everytime without fail, the very first thing they say to me when they find out I'm a cop (something that I don't readily advertise mind you) "I like cops, but let me tell you about this one time this cop was an asshole...."

I started my career when I was 21 years old, which is the minimum age for the state of Indiana. Spent my first four and a half, almost five years, on the job with the Gary Indiana Police Department. If you're not familiar with Gary, IN please feel free to look it up, but trust me when I tell you that it's a hard place to be the Police. For several years that I worked there it was the per capita murder capitol of the country (A dubious honor that many of the younger citizens of the city are actually proud of!). For several years, including this last year, it has made the FBI's top ten list of the most dangerous cities in the country. Drugs, prostitution, homicides and burglaries all run rampant. So does gang and domestic violence. Matter of fact, the city is now going onto it's third and in some cases even fourth generation of bangers. To give you an idea of how bad it is my very first night on patrol, directly out of the academy and with my Field Training Officer, we responded to a call to assist the SWAT team. They were doing a raid on a suspected dealers house when the house across the street from them opened fire on them as they were making entry into the home. So yeah, when stuff like that happens, I'd have been extremely happy to have an MRAP at my disposal as opposed to my threat level 1 bullet proof vest and my Ford Crown Victoria with standard sheet metal. I carried a shotgun for several years. Deployed it a couple of times. One time was when I pulled up to a brawl in the middle of the street involving at least 60 members of rival gangs. Me, myself and I, no back up, versus 60 bangers. I carry a patrol rifle now. I've deployed it a couple of times too. Mainly when doing perimeter guard during barricaded subject standoffs and searches for fleeing subjects. Like it or not, this is the world we live in. Bad guys have guns too and in many cases the stuff they carry far outguns the stuff we carry. Cops have a right to protect themselves too. Not all bad guys give up, some shoot back. So far this year we as a country have had 38 Police Officers killed in the line of duty by gun fire. A statistic that is up 52% from this same time last year. 52%! That's a scary number. One of the finest men I've ever met, a fellow officer of Gary PD, who was also a Veteran of the 82Nd ABN and a Panama Veteran, was just killed two months ago. Ambushed before he could even get out of his squad car. Sadly, he isn't the first friend I've lost doing this job and I'm sure he won't be the last.

I didn't see the videos you posted, but I wish I could because I'd wonder how much of the truth or what percentage of the entirety of the incident is shown in the video? Someone posted the video from Skokie PD (which is just across the border in Illinois) where the woman is thrown against the cell bench. No excuse for stuff like that. None at all. And any good cop that I know, would agree. Matter of fact, all of us good cops want the ones like that guy weeded out as soon as possible. Guys like that give guys like me a bad name. I worked hard for my badge. I earned it and it means something to me. Sadly, all cops are judged by our worst and not by the best of us. When a bad cop tarnishes his badge my is tarnished by association. I go out of my way to be an ambassador to the public when I'm on duty, but I still have a job to do when I go to work.

Response by SGT Tyler G. made Feb 23 at 2015 12:40 PM

SGT Tyler G. — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 12:40:51 -0500

The police have been steadily and increasingly militarized since 9/11. They DoD actually actively sells them military hardware from armored vehicles to various weapons. This is definitely not a trend in the right direction. It seems to instill the sense that the civilian populace is their enemy, when in reality they are supposed to protect and serve that populace. A civilian shouldn't be scared to go to a police officer for help because they fear accidentally getting shot.

Police accountability does indeed need to be greater. They need to reeducate the police on escalation of force, only drawing their weapon as a last resort or if a threat clearly beyond any reasonable doubt has a gun pointed at them. And if they do have to fire, only shooting as many times as necessary to drop them, center mass, and calling for medical services immediately. They also need to be more transparent during investigations, and less willing to protect guilty individuals just because they're one of their own. I could rant more but I'm done.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2015 2:04 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 14:04:05 -0400

Simple answer to your question: The Afghan populace as a whole respects our military forces, and the forces are trained how to properly deal with it for the few who do not. For the LEO, many civilians do not respect their authority and most LEO are not properly trained to handle it when these events occur.

IMO, its not just the LEO that needs to be held accountable, but the training they receive as well. Budget cuts are a normal thing in todays times, but training should never be an item considered for these cuts.

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made May 20 at 2015 5:45 AM

PO2 Skip Kirkwood — Wed, 20 May 2015 05:45:44 -0400

There is nothing going on that has not always gone on - a few bad apples. You are "seeing" more of this because (a) everybody has a video camera, and (b) emphasizing the bad apples sells media time.

BTW, cops who do bad get punished all the time - fired, jailed, what have you. The "paid vacation" is what they get while the investigation is going on - just like a soldier or sailor would - restriction to quarters, in the brig, etc. - but still drawing a paycheck. Like all Americans, they are innocent until proven guilty, in a court of law, court martial, or whatever.

Don't believe everything that you see on television - they are anything but unbiased.

While you're making comparisons - cops are "deployed" every day. They don't get a year on the line, then a year back home to train and recover. Imagine a deployment that lasted 20 years - that's the life of a city cop. Yes, they go home at the end of shift - but they are "in country" every day. The psychological stress, particularly with a camera everywhere - well, I don't know why anybody would want to do that job these days!

Response by PO3 Jeffrey Levy made May 20 at 2015 7:03 AM

PO3 Jeffrey Levy — Wed, 20 May 2015 07:03:07 -0400

Noticing a trend? It's called "Rehearsal", don't worry I will help... Rehearsal is repeated exposure of a stimulus to a person enough times that the perception of a stimulus is perceived to occur more often than it actually is. This is often used in advertising and the media (cause let's be honest the mob loves to see a hero fall) . So while their may be small things done to policing ourselves many don't comprehend what it would take. All the cameras that are proposed, data storage, maintaining that, security for that, physical and cyber, money for equipment. The WH is taking away resources for local pd to protect themselves instead of helping; and I am sorry to tell you this SGT but the average officer encounters more potential dangers and suspects than in a year than most soldiers... But your perception of a trend is inaccurate, statistics don't lie just BC the media wants them to... But what do I know I'm just the son of a 35 year police officer and going to school to be a scientist and stats is all I've done for the past two years....

Response by PO3 Jeffrey Levy made May 20 at 2015 7:14 AM

PO3 Jeffrey Levy — Wed, 20 May 2015 07:14:27 -0400

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nRd5oucG114